The problem with Plot Manipulation.

[Dark_Soul20189]

(This thread has now been moved to a Staff thread, so none staff members without permission needs to first ask a staff member to talk here)

Let's get straight to the point.

When we deal with plot manipulation on the profile in versus battles, their are always full of NLFs. The majority of people believe that Plot manipulation can affect anything that isen't NEP 2 or nondulaity/transduality.

Now why is that?

If we look at the Plot manipulation page it says this.

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping.

Note that this ability should not be listed just because a power is compared to a trope or otherwise metafiction is used in the story. For instance, a character that is lucky or fated to win (eg. a character recognized to be the protagonist) would only get this power if their luck or destiny is actively described as altering the plot. Otherwise it would simply be Supernatural Luck or Fate Manipulation.

Regarding No-Limits Fallacies, users cannot simply be assumed to bring out any imaginable effect. They are assumed to be limited in both applications and scale to what they demonstrated or can be reasoned to be capable based of reliable statements.

As we can see i clearly states that plot manipulation can only do what it has feats of doing othervise it is a NLF, So what is he problem?

The problem is very simple, The description is to vague, or rather lacks a description of what it can and can't affect.

Now why do i think it should be required to mention what it can't or can affect?
I am pretty sure we all been in a least one thread where 1 being has plot manipulation of any kind. And a large portion of the community treats it as a instant GG, regardless of everything else.
Even though Plot manipulation is very similiar to casualty manipulation, fate manipulation, reality warping ect, it is treated as the most powerful hax hat can overpower anything regardless of feats and statements.

So what do i propose to deal with it?

First of all as mentioned before It should be required to have feats of affecting what it wants to affect (this is already in the description of the ability but it should be to a much less degree)
So that includes the need to show evidence of affecting (information, concepts ect.

(a option) Second of all, Acausality 4 should be naturally resistant towards plot manipulation. Just like how it is to other abilities that works similarly compared to plot manipulation like Reality warping, fate manipulation, Causality manipulation.
What i mean by this is that the Plot manipulation should require prof of affecting beings of irregular casualty.
--edit (Seem to be ignored so i crossed it off for now)

Conclusion

I propose that Plot manipulation Not only require proof of what it can do, but also what it can affect, some examples include Information, concepts, timelines.
This should also be mentioned in the plot manipulation ability description to prevent NLFs.

Edit addon

A proposal made by DT that looks very promising, that follows the goal with this thread, to see it click here.

Last words

(PS I asked someone where to post proposal for ability changes and was asked post it here. Not gonna mention who i asked incase they wanna stay anonymous.)

(Also feel free to move it to a CRT or staff thread if required.)

I wish to hear all your thoughts on his as well, since I am sure we all had to deal with this problem.

And for my final statement i wish for all to have a civilized discussion and for everyone here to have a Great day.

Agrees @DarkDragonMedeus (with plot manipulation and DT's proposal) @Deagonx @KLOL506 (with plot manipulation proposal) @DontTalkDT (with the plot manipulation "change" and made a very good proposal here) @Theglassman12 (agrees to the threads goal, but think it is already explained in the description good enough for plot manipulation) @Qawsedf234 (Agrees with DT's proposal) @Catzlaflame (Agrees with plot manipulation changes and DT's Proposal) @Mr._Bambu (Agrees with plot manipulation changes and DT's Proposal) @Firestorm808

Disagree @DontTalkDT (with acasualty 4)

Neutral

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well I haven't gotten involved with many verses threads for reasons like that. But I do agree there should be some line to draw without evidence of how far it goes and some people might have plot manipulation listed as opposed to regular reality warping or Fate manipulation ect.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This seems like a problem of users not asking questions, and taking things at face value during battles.

Just because a character has an ability, doesn’t mean they can do things they haven’t shown capable of with that ability, or do things outside the logical conclusions of that ability.

Especially things like plot manipulation and other high end abilities. Thought the profiles should clearly state the extent and scope

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This seems like a problem of users not asking questions, and taking things at face value during battles.

The problem lies in that the people that uses those examples usually have the attitude that it can affect anything that isen't ND or NEP, and ignores all arguments that go against it. So making it clearer in the descriptions feel like he only choice to minimise it.

 

[Deagonx]

I think both perspectives are valid, we can recognize that even in its current state, users should not be making these kinds of assumptions in such a way that causes these problems, but at the same time it is our job to improve things and if these sorts of clarifications could be made, then we can and should make them.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath

What do you think about this?

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Thank you for making this. This one thread im in rn is ratting the hell out of plot manipulation, whats worse its a inverse thing and the page is character profile outdated

 

[Deidalius]

You're right, I agree with OP.

I'd say powernull should be treated the same way but that's another story.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think this is sufficiently covered. It already has the note regarding NLF and what it can affect is covered in what it can do. If someone just doesn't challenge the argument that plot manip can do something in a vs-thread that's their problem.
The exact same thing applies to all other metaphysical aspects btw. There is no default hierarchy, so information, causality or concepts have the exact same consideration apply. Singling out plot is unjustified. If anything we should make a page about the metaphysical hierarchies... could put considerations regarding metaphysical equalization there as well.

Which brings us to the Type 4 Acausality proposal, where the answer is no. That would assume that causality by default is above plot. That should likewise require evidence. Without evidence, you can not default to either position.

The order of the metaphysical hierarchy is indeterminate and as such one can not default to something being affected or not affected without either having feats.

 

[ShionAH]

Thank you for making this. This one thread im in rn is ratting the hell out of plot manipulation, whats worse its a inverse thing and the page is character profile outdated

Wang Ling has no NEP or etc. Dont clog up the thread with your salt

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Wang Ling has no NEP or etc.

That wasn't the purpose of my comment shion.... The whole idea of this q&a is to fix plot manipulation and how it's described and used in versus threads... Which is what i have a problem with.... Wang ling this wang ling that, please leave if you're going to flood this with the versus thread earlier. You came here just to reply to me and disrupt the thread instead of giving your take on op's post

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I think this is sufficiently covered. It already has the note regarding NLF and what it can affect is covered in what it can do. If someone just doesn't challenge the argument that plot manip can do something in a vs-thread that's their problem.

The problem is that the NLF notes section dosen't cover what it can and can't affect, only what it can and can't do.

 

[ShionAH]

You came here just to reply to me and disrupt the thread instead of giving your take on op's post

How can I possibly know you commented here? I was going around till I saw this comment and stated why I believe it wasnt a good example.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

The problem is that the NLF notes section dosen't cover what

Maybe add like a limitations section and add all that. But staff would have to come together and decide what it can and can't affect. Should also be like power null in a way that it affects certain things it's shown to and depending on what it's used on and how, and not anything/everything at face value

 

[DontTalkDT]

The problem is that the NLF notes section dosen't cover what it can and can't affect, only what it can and can't do.

That's the same thing. Affecting something is doing something. (and it's an application of the power, to go with the wording of the note)

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

[…] Singling out plot is unjustified. If anything we should make a page about the metaphysical hierarchies... could put considerations regarding metaphysical equalization there as well. […]

I think that this is the best course of action. The original post of this thread looks good to me, but people assuming no limit in these circumstances isn't exclusive to plot manipulation, and is more so a result of general headcanons that are personal beliefs about how concepts that are either unfamiliar to humanity or are originally from fiction should be placed in a hierarchy by default. Your suggestion would allow multiple misconceptions to be addressed instead of only plot manipulation specifically.

 

[Livinmeme]

I think showing that the character has full dominiom of the plot, should give the capability of being able to affect concepts, casuality, fate and etc. The real deal is showing that the character has full control of the plot, not all plot manips are equal

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

The real deal is showing that the character has full control of the plot, not all plot manips are equal

I am pretty sure we all been in a least one thread where 1 being has plot manipulation of any kind. And a large portion of the community treats it as a instant GG, regardless of everything else.
Even though Plot manipulation is very similiar to casualty manipulation, fate manipulation, reality warping ect, it is treated as the most powerful hax hat can overpower anything regardless of feats and statements

Wouldn't that negate the entire ideal of this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think showing that the character has full dominiom of the plot, should give the capability of being able to affect concepts, casuality, fate and etc. The real deal is showing that the character has full control of the plot, not all plot manips are equal

All can theoretically emulate the other if performed at a theoretical full capacity.

A concept manipulator can theoretically manipulate the concept of plot.
A causality manipulator can make it so that him existing is the cause and plot being erased is the effect.
But a plot manipulator could create a plot involving concepts and changed causality as well.

So yeah, I still think the order of which of those is above what can change verse-by-verse and there is no real-life analogy to default to.

 

[Livinmeme]

All can theoretically emulate the other if performed at a theoretical full capacity.

A concept manipulator can theoretically manipulate the concept of plot.
A causality manipulator can make it so that him existing is the cause and plot being erased is the effect.
But a plot manipulator could create a plot involving concepts and changed causality as well.

So yeah, I still think the order of which of those is above what can change verse-by-verse and there is no real-life analogy to default to.

It heavilly depends, I suposse those cases would be more....Specialized, and would need hard proof

 

[Jozaysmith?]

So let's get this straight
If i have plot manip but i havent ever shown to affect AE1 on information (Type 2) or concept (Type 1)
I am definitely not going to affect em?
I think some mods and supporters need to see this too

 

[DontTalkDT]

If we did a page on metaphysical aspects I would do it something like this:

Metaphysical Aspects​

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involves clarifies how interaction with the metaphysical aspect works.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.
As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

 

[Theglassman12]

I don't really see what needs to be changed, are folks actually assuming because Plot hax is Plot hax that it can automatically let them affect anyone and everyone without any feats like high end abstracts, NEP, Acausals, or Nondual beings? Because that's not how Plot hax works, it's up to them to show that it can reach that level of power without assuming it does because it can, by that logic the same can be applied to reality warping just because it can do anything.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don't really see what needs to be changed, are folks actually assuming because Plot hax is Plot hax that it can automatically let them affect anyone and everyone without any feats like high end abstracts, NEP, Acausals, or Nondual beings? Because that's not how Plot hax works, it's up to them to show that it can reach that level of power without assuming it does because it can, by that logic the same can be applied to reality warping just because it can do anything.

Regarding Acausals, specifically type 4, I remember a conversation in which you said that this has nothing to do with plot hax. And that being Acausals type 4 did not provide resistance to plot hax, unless it is shown in the story. Something changed?

 

[ShionAH]

Regarding Acausals, specifically type 4, I remember a conversation in which you said that this has nothing to do with plot hax. And that being Acausals type 4 did not provide resistance to plot hax, unless it is shown in the story. Something changed?

I think Glass meant Acasuality 5 specifically in that comment.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Phsccarvalho I’m specifically referring to type 5 Acausals since they’re the ones that are near impossible to interact with without feats.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I think Glass meant Acasuality 5 specifically in that comment.

I mean, I think I remember him saying that it was only type 5 that provided "resistance" by becoming something that was impossible to interact with. But the OP was talking about type 4 and Glass didn't mention a specific one, so I just want to confirm.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho I’m specifically referring to type 5 Acausals since they’re the ones that are near impossible to interact with without feats.

I can't believe the messages were sent at almost the same time.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

I don't really see what needs to be changed, are folks actually assuming because Plot hax is Plot hax that it can automatically let them affect anyone and everyone without any feats like high end abstracts, NEP, Acausals, or Nondual beings? Because that's not how Plot hax works, it's up to them to show that it can reach that level of power without assuming it does because it can, by that logic the same can be applied to reality warping just because it can do anything.

But there's a time where you also agreed about plot hax affecting information on type 2 level which havent been shown in-verse

 

[ashen]

If we did a page on metaphysical aspects I would do it something like this:

Metaphysical Aspects​

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involves clarifies how interaction with the metaphysical aspect works.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.
As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

Agree with this it can be a great start.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Jozaysmith? Since when is Information Type 2 remotely comparable to something like high end Acausality, NEP and Nonduality? You're comparing apples to oranges here.

 

[Robo432343]

it already talks about NLF's in the plot manip page
wtf is the point of this

 

[Ikelaggan]

it already talks about NLF's in the plot manip page
wtf is the point of this

Then give me an answer on how this isn't incredibly broad cause this rule still some how gets sidestepped in verses threads for some reason.
Regarding No-Limits Fallacies, users cannot simply be assumed to bring out any imaginable effect. They are assumed to be limited in both applications and scale to what they demonstrated or can be reasoned to be capable based of reliable statements.

 

[Robo432343]

Then give me an answer on how this isn't incredibly broad cause this rule still some how gets sidestepped in verses threads for some reason.

the rule being sidestepped in vs threads is their problem, not the pages problem
no matter how explicit the page is, people are still gonna say, "but plot manip-"

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I wonder if a rule will be made on hax and how people make NLF's out of them. I do wonder

 

[Ikelaggan]

no matter how explicit the page is, people are still gonna say, "but plot manip-"

It is a pretty common thing for people to take the highest interpretation of plot manipulation as being full control over reality as a story even though it can also be something super mundane in terms of feats.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The problem lies in that the people that uses those examples usually have the attitude that it can affect anything that isen't ND or NEP, and ignores all arguments that go against it. So making it clearer in the descriptions feel like he only choice to minimise it.

Users simply have to be more adamant against this type of arguments. Even things like ND and NEP are not that indominable. A character that has NEP can be non-existent in certain aspect, but can be affected in other ways, not to mention, void manipulation can affect nep. Nonduality is also not that big of a deal. The verse its self has to establish the dual systems, and characters can have nonduality in aspects that are just meaningless to most characters. In fact, I will bet money there are a lot of characters who are nondual, but can't do anything with it because the verse never actually stated any specific dual systems for them.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It is a pretty common thing for people to take the highest interpretation of plot manipulation as being full control over reality as a story even though it can also be something super mundane in terms of feats.

It depends on the NEP, on the aspects that the character's NEP covers.

A character can be non-existent but have no concept or non-existent information, just the body and soul.

For him not to be affected by a power that manipulates the narrative, he would have to have the type 5 narrative aspect to have his narrative non-existent and gain resistance against it, otherwise his narrative still exists and can still be manipulated.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

The exact same thing applies to all other metaphysical aspects btw. There is no default hierarchy, so information, causality or concepts have the exact same consideration apply. Singling out plot is unjustified. If anything we should make a page about the metaphysical hierarchies... could put considerations regarding metaphysical equalization there as well.

I fully agree.

If we did a page on metaphysical aspects I would do it something like this:

Metaphysical Aspects​

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involves clarifies how interaction with the metaphysical aspect works.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.
As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

This looks great. After all, the goal with this CRT was simply to make it clearer that even hax like plot manipulation require feats of what i can interact with.

I don't really see what needs to be changed, are folks actually assuming because Plot hax is Plot hax that it can automatically let them affect anyone and everyone without any feats like high end abstracts, NEP, Acausals, or Nondual beings?

To answer it simply, Yes.
A lot of people believe that plot hax can affect anything. The only limit they see is what it has shown to be able to change, not what it can change. Meaning for example, if plot manipulation can control their own entire story for example, it is believed that it can also control CM, information, acasualty or other fundamental stuff without those abilities even existing in the verse sometimes. When trying to debate them and calling it a NLF, they will either ignore it or as mentioned repeatedly, will just say "character B dosen't have range, NEP or ND so he can't resist plot manipulation" regardless of the feats statements, and abilities in their verse.

 

[Theglassman12]

character B dosen't have range, NEP or ND so he can't resist plot manipulation

That isn’t really wrong when they exist on the same dimensional plane of existence and aren’t ridiculously uninteractable like how those or Type 5 Acausals work. The NLF comes when people argue it works on NEP, ND and Type 5 Acausals without any evidence of doing so since the whole point of those state of beings is they’re nigh impossible to interact with without feats.