[this is NOT a versus thread. It's just a discussion] Goku vs Superman (composite version: post crisis + post flashpoint)

[Jeune_fou]

Alright, I know someone who say this composite version of Superman can easily defeat Goku for the following reasons (I'll copy what he said here).


"superman has literally every advantage over the first Goku


And he is much faster than the second (DBS Goku such as he is during the U6 vs U7 arc) Goku and has the broken and hell Voice of God attack which would instant kill goku and goku can't counter it, it is an intangible attack that destroys the opponents soul, and it scales in both speed and power to Darkseid's True Form, who is a multiversal level being"


That voice attack he is talking about is based on that: http://i.imgur.com/UWa6pOml.jpg

I don't agree with that because Goku is currently 3 - A while Superman post-crisis (who has a better AP and durability than post flashpoint superman) is high 4 - C.

I think this feat with Superman and Darkseid's true form doesn't show at all Superman is multiverse level, and is an outlier. Darkseid is not multiverse level at all neither.

As you know it already there's a rule about powerscaling for DC and marvel: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Power-scaling_Rules_for_Marvel_and_DC_Comics

And an artickle about outliers: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Outlier


Also, post crisis and post flashpoint superman's fighting speeds were both calculated to be MFTL (for post crisis I remember it was around 250 times FTL).

I must admit I do not know the context of the "voice feat". But I'd say Darkseid can't move normally because if Superman is using his voice that means this attack is "only" around the sound speed.


Anyway I would like to hear your opinion and give precise arguments about who should win in the following conditions:

Round 1: buu saga Goku vs composite Superman (post crisis and post flashpoint) (speed not equalized)

Round 2: dragon ball super Goku (U6 vs U7 arc) vs composite Superman (post crisis and post flashpoint). Speed not equalized once again.

Thanks in advance to all those who will participate.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What do you mean by "Composite Superman"? The one in the two rounds? That's not even a full composite. It's only two versions of him.

If you mean a full composite Superman by "Composite Superman", then yes, he absolutely destroys Goku.

 

[Jeune_fou]

What do you mean by "Composite Superman"? The one in the two rounds? That's not even a full composite. It's only two versions of him.
If you mean a full composite Superman by "Composite Superman", then yes, he absolutely destroys Goku.

No it's not full composite superman. "Only" post crisis + post flashpoint. He clearly insisted on the fact just post-crisis + post flashpoint would be more than enough to deal with Goku.

 

[Jeune_fou]

What do you mean by "Composite Superman"? The one in the two rounds? That's not even a full composite. It's only two versions of him.
If you mean a full composite Superman by "Composite Superman", then yes, he absolutely destroys Goku.

So, what do you think of it knowing it's not full composite but "just" post crisis + post flashpoint?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't think PC + Post Flashpoint Supes is nearly fast enough to beat Goku without equalized speed. He could maybe use some hax to kill him, but that's only with equalized speed and if he gets the chance to use it, first. Not to mention he'd have to be bloodlusted, and blooslusted Goku would likely just take care of him, beforehand.

 

[Jeune_fou]

That's also what I think: Goku has superior AP, durability and fighting speed. (only DBS Goku for that last point though).

Also that hax thing is most likely at sound speed since it's a scream.

 

[Jucaslucas]

He has intangibility and heat vision lobotomization. That's a little haxy.

I think he could beat the weaker versions, but the current Goku is too much for him.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I think he means composite "conventional Superman" aka Nu-52, Post Crisis, Kingdom Come, etc.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Pretty sure it's just Post Crisis and Post Flashpoint.

 

[Jeune_fou]

He has intangibility and heat vision lobotomization. That's a little haxy.
I think he could beat the weaker versions, but the current Goku is too much for him.

The "heat vision lobotomization" normally shouldn't bypass Goku's durability (even buu saga Goku since he is solar system level in both AP and durability).

For the intangibility however it can be usefull. But it doesn't work the same way as MMH's or Vision's intangibility for example. He needs to make his body vibrate, which means he can't move while he is intangible (we never saw him being intangible for a long period. He just used that avoid some attacks and then he became normal once again (clearly different than MMH's one or Vision's one).

I'd say (but of course I can be wrong) buu saga Goku wins and of course DBS Goku too. However things would be different if it was cell saga Goku and Superman would win due to equal AP and durability but better speed and hax.

 

[Jeune_fou]

Pretty sure it's just Post Crisis and Post Flashpoint.

Yup: "just" post crisis and post flashpoint. Ah also what do you think of that scream destroying soul thing?

Would you say it is at sound speed? I'd say (but I can be wrong because I do not know the context) yes because he only used it against that darkseid and it looked like he couldn't avoid it. Since it's a scream it's at sound speed (makes sense right?). But for darkseid that should be easy to dodge a sound speed attack. So I have that feeling that darkseid at the moment superman attacked him couldn't dodge that attack.

 

[Meleemaster428]

How is this NOT a versus thread? We're still arguing about who we'd think would win in this scenario. Wouldn't be surprised if this gets locked soon.

Also...

"I don't agree with that because Goku is currently 3 - A while Superman post-crisis (who has a better AP and durability than post flashpoint superman) is high 4 - C?"

Not the best argument. Vs battles wiki is constantly changing because well... it's vs debating. People are going to have differing opinions, and they've changed the stats on characters on this wiki several times if they realized they screwed up a calc. Focus more on making your own argument before copying their stats. There's been more than one instance of people arguing for universe+ level Superman with different feats to make it questionable if some of these are outliers.

 

[Antoniofer]

Not sure if we should count this "voice feat" what are you talking, several characters were able to talk when they are moving at high speed, for example: Goku were able to talk to Hit when he was only able to freeze time for 0.2 seconds.

About who would win, composite Supa should be superior to Buu Saga Goku, with speed equalized this should be a tie; against DBS Goku, Goku should win via stats, but DBS has even less feats than DBZ and DB, and that bug me... even tho, comp Supa is physically stronger due that Goku can't deal with hugh weights

 

[Jeune_fou]

How is this NOT a versus thread? We're still arguing about who we'd think would win in this scenario. Wouldn't be surprised if this gets locked soon.
Also...

"I don't agree with that because Goku is currently 3 - A while Superman post-crisis (who has a better AP and durability than post flashpoint superman) is high 4 - C?"

Not the best argument. Vs battles wiki is constantly changing because well... it's vs debating. People are going to have differing opinions, and they've changed the stats on characters on this wiki several times if they realized they screwed up a calc. Focus more on making your own argument before copying their stats. There's been more than one instance of people arguing for universe+ level Superman with different feats to make it questionable if some of these are outliers.

Superboy has an universe feat or something close to it (http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/105/262/i02/superboyprime.jpg)

But Superman post crisis or post flashpoint never had this kind of power. Superman literally never had a moment where he (on his own) could destroy the universe, multiple galaxies, galaxies or even solar systems. Until proven of the contrary he is large start level, so I'd like to hear more about those universe + feats (let's not forget comics are famous to have very weird income with some battles (example: cyclops being able to defeat dormammu)).

What can I say except saying Goku is universal? (with SSB combiend with kaioken 10) Goku relies mainly on physical strenght! His physical punches can destroy an universe as we saw in his fight against Beerus (it is true restrained Beerus also participated to that feat, but since Goku became at least 10 times stronger and faster (due to kaioken 10) that means he is capable to perform that feat alone).

Goku at least in DBS (I can understand it's debatable with buu saga Goku) has a lot more AP, more durability and is faster (when it comes to fighting speed). Superman doesn't have something that can bypass Goku's durability except maybe that scream feat (but Superman used it only against Darkseid's spirit), but once again since that's a scream I'd say it's sound speed (he never used it again probably because he knows his other opponents would dodge it easily ... I can be wrong but I think darkseid's spirit was unable to dodge in the situation he was).

It also true stats could be changed for Superman (he might receive an upgrade in the future). But we're talking about Superman such as he actually is. And Superman (post flashpoint) is not ready to "magically" reach the cosmic tier since he needed help to move an object that was larger than Earth.

Antoniofer: did you read the dbs respect thread? https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/221800

 

[Antoniofer]

^Yeah, i read it, but in the DBS manga stated that Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons, in fact, 1000 tons seems to be a big number to Beerus, and that is related to physical strength and, in some deegre, durability. That bug me about DBS is that characters seems little impresive compared to DBZ, like Vegeta being hurt by lava, and they hasn't show any good speed feat that isn't for travel; if we've some lucky, there will be a good combat speed feat that can be calculed, and show a good durability. But for now, to me DBS seems almost featless.

while there's still time, I suggest to close this thread

 

[Jucaslucas]

They can destroy universes by punching each other but can't lift 1000 tons?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111117347/3847864-3173677-1421025896-27629.png

I mean, come on!

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The 1000 tons thing was only mentioned in the manga and its an inconsistency because higher lifting feats were shown in the anime by base goku lifting weights under 10x gravity.

 

[Jeune_fou]

The 1000 tons thing was only mentioned in the manga and its an inconsistency because higher lifting feats were shown in the anime by base goku lifting weights under 10x gravity.

As you said. + Striking strenght is more important than lifting strenght in battle. And DBS has crazy striking strenght like ultra restrained Beerus being able to one shot a planet with a poke (one finger), or final form Frieza who managed to one shot the Earth with a kick (while base form Goku was superior to him). So yeah that 1 000 tons thing is definitely irrevelant.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Jucas, destroying the universe is "easy" when they use ki blast, but I think that the punches that they used in BoG were similar to the punch that Goku threw at Broly: normal punches in dragon ball aren't impresive (but Beerus and Champa, that can destroy a planet with one punch/kick), but i think that if they concentrate all they ki in their punches, those attacks can become as powerful as their most stronger ki blast, at least that is my theory

 

[Jeune_fou]

@Jucas, destroying the universe is "easy" when they use ki blast, but I think that the punches that they used in BoG were similar to the punch that Goku threw at Broly: normal punches in dragon ball aren't impresive (but Beerus and Champa, that can destroy a planet with one punch/kick), but i think that if they concentrate all they ki in their punches, those attacks can become as powerful as their most stronger ki blast, at least that is my theory

Even final form frieza was able to one shot the Earth with a kick and base form Goku is stronger than him!

 

[Jucaslucas]

But you'd think that if someone is strong enough to destroy a planet with a punch, he would be able to lift a 1000 tons . . .

 

[Jeune_fou]

But you'd think that if someone is strong enough to destroy a planet with a punch, he would be able to lift a 1000 tons . . .

Lifting strenhgt never mattered in dragon ball. There was that infamous 40 tons scene and at that time Goku was already large star level.

Toriyama pulls out "random numbers" for lifting feats that don't correspond at all to what goku is capable of in terms of striking strenght.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, lifting strength can scale to durability in some case, is only that doesn't happen in DB very often, for example: if a moon impact against Vegeta the most likely is that he would be severely injured, even can be killed by that cuz he can't support the weights

 

[Jeune_fou]

Welp, lifting strength can scale to durability in some case, is only that doesn't happen in DB very often, for example: if a moon impact against Vegeta the most likely is that he would be severely injured, even can be killed by that cuz he can't support the weights

Yeah but no ... otherwise they'd all one shot each others if their durability were drastically weaker than their AP. In DB it's obvious their AP is = to their duability.

Also they have some pretty crazy durability feats. Take frieza for example: he survived namek's explosion even if he lost his legs, half of his left arm and had nearly no ki before the explosion.

Anyway all that definitely proves lifting strenght is not revelant in DB.

 

[Legion350]

I still wonder how frieza survived with no ki left.

 

[Master_Xar]

Not to mention if you count final form Frieza on Namek kicked away a full power blast from Post-Zenkai Vegeta who is now small star level+ counts as a striking strength AND durability feat for easily knocking it away, mind you Frieza was heavily suppressed at this point

 

[Jeune_fou]

Not to mention if you count final form Frieza on Namek kicked away a full power blast from Post-Zenkai Vegeta who is now small star level+ counts as a striking strength AND durability feat for easily knocking it away, mind you Frieza was heavily suppressed at this point

Also Frieza was using only 2% of his real power against Vegeta (not said officially but that makes sense because 100% Frieza has a power level of 120 000 000. Base form Goku had a power level of 3 000 000 and 2% Frieza has a power level of 2 400 000 (which explains how base form Goku could deflect Frieza's barrage of death beams using only one arm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r3JoAda1FY)

Oh and btw: that shows base form Goku's right arm is more durable than the sun.

 

[Meleemaster428]

How is this NOT a versus thread? We're still arguing about who we'd think would win in this scenario. Wouldn't be surprised if this gets locked soon.
Also...

"I don't agree with that because Goku is currently 3 - A while Superman post-crisis (who has a better AP and durability than post flashpoint superman) is high 4 - C?"

Not the best argument. Vs battles wiki is constantly changing because well... it's vs debating. People are going to have differing opinions, and they've changed the stats on characters on this wiki several times if they realized they screwed up a calc. Focus more on making your own argument before copying their stats. There's been more than one instance of people arguing for universe+ level Superman with different feats to make it questionable if some of these are outliers.

Superboy has an universe feat or something close to it (http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/105/262/i02/superboyprime.jpg)
But Superman post crisis or post flashpoint never had this kind of power. Superman literally never had a moment where he (on his own) could destroy the universe, multiple galaxies, galaxies or even solar systems. Until proven of the contrary he is large start level, so I'd like to hear more about those universe + feats (let's not forget comics are famous to have very weird income with some battles (example: cyclops being able to defeat dormammu)).

What can I say except saying Goku is universal? (with SSB combiend with kaioken 10) Goku relies mainly on physical strenght! His physical punches can destroy an universe as we saw in his fight against Beerus (it is true restrained Beerus also participated to that feat, but since Goku became at least 10 times stronger and faster (due to kaioken 10) that means he is capable to perform that feat alone).

Goku at least in DBS (I can understand it's debatable with buu saga Goku) has a lot more AP, more durability and is faster (when it comes to fighting speed). Superman doesn't have something that can bypass Goku's durability except maybe that scream feat (but Superman used it only against Darkseid's spirit), but once again since that's a scream I'd say it's sound speed (he never used it again probably because he knows his other opponents would dodge it easily ... I can be wrong but I think darkseid's spirit was unable to dodge in the situation he was).

It also true stats could be changed for Superman (he might receive an upgrade in the future). But we're talking about Superman such as he actually is. And Superman (post flashpoint) is not ready to "magically" reach the cosmic tier since he needed help to move an object that was larger than Earth.

Antoniofer: did you read the dbs respect thread? https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/221800

You again contradict the purpose of this supposed thread. Admit it, this IS a Goku vs Superman debate thread you created, you just don't want people to see it that way, which I would understand because any Goku vs Superman thread is banned, but that's for a VERY good reason. Don't be surprised if this thread gets banned soon. If you wanted to just focus on the Superman feat, then just do that. Don't drag this hellish debate into it.

Also I just noticed the title of this is [This is NOT a versus thread] and then you say "Anyway I would like to hear your opinion and give precise arguments about who should win in the following conditions"

So... a verus thread...

Even if certain Superman feats aren't outright stated to be universal and such, that doesn't mean certain crazy ones can be interpreted under a similar vein. I've seen people debate for him before using multiple examples, but vs wiki refuses to count them because of the policies towards outliers and policies, but given the examples and amount of times he's faired against beings who have higher tiers than him even on this wiki and the amount of times certain crazy things are done puts the system into question if he truly is 4-C or not.

I won't go into them because after all, that would be debating if Superman could beat Goku, and isn't this NOT a versus thread?

 

[Jeune_fou]

I didn't want that to be traited as a vs thread because I know it will be the civil war ^^

That's just a discussion (so that mean neither Goku nor Superman will have an actual victory/loss from this on their profile) and everyone is free to share their point of view.

I'd say you (at vs wiki) make a lot more sense than those guys by not using outliers. The problem with comics characters is the fact they often win to characters/beings who are drastically stronger than them (to the point characters like cyclops were able to defeat dormammu. Or Superman being able to defeat universal beings or more).

Those fights won by superman against this kind of beings are clearly outliers because they heavily contradict all his other feats such as the many times he struggled or needed help to move moons, planets, or other large objects.

So if superman defeats an universal being and then has problems to move a planet tomorrow, that can only mean the fight he won earlier was an outlier.

The only fights that should count for comics characters are those against opponents they can casually defeat or that are admitted by the majority to be more or less on their level.

Another example: Spiderman being able to defeat firelord http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...87236-2659634-spider_man_vs._firelord__11.jpg

And yet everyone knows spiderman is not tier 4 - C. Powerscaling should never be used haphazardly with comics characters because some characters who are peak human (like the example of Black Panther in the outlier article) or superhuman (like Spiderman) can reach tiers 4 or more. And some characters that should normally be tier 5 or 4 (like Superman for example) will "magically" reach tier 3 - A or 2 - C.

 

[Meleemaster428]

I didn't want that to be traited as a vs thread because I know it will be the civil war ^^
That's just a discussion (so that mean neither Goku nor Superman will have an actual victory/loss from this on their profile) and everyone is free to share their point of view.

I'd say you (at vs wiki) make a more sense than those guys by not using outliers. The problem with comics characters is the fact they often win to characters/beings who are drastically stronger than them (to the point characters like cyclops were able to defeat dormammu. Or Superman being able to defeat universal beings or more).

Those fights won by superman against this kind of beings are clearly outliers because they heavily contradict all his other feats such as the many times he struggled or needed help to move moons, planets, or other large objects.

So if superman defeats an universal being and then has problems to move a planet tomorrow, that can only mean the fight he won earlier was an outlier.

The only fights that should count for comics characters are those against opponents they can casually defeat or that are admitted by the majority to be more or less on their level.

Another example: Spiderman being able to defeat firelord http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...87236-2659634-spider_man_vs._firelord__11.jpg

And yet everyone knows spiderman is not tier 4 - C. Powerscaling should never be used haphazardly with comics characters because some characters who are peak human (like the example of Black Panther in the outlier article) or superhuman (like Spiderman) can reach tiers 4 or more. And some characters that should normally be tier 5 or 4 (like Superman for example) will "magically" reach tier 3 - A or 2 - C.

You're not fully getting what I'm saying here. With the Spider-Man and Cyclops examples, those only happened once. Don't think I don't know that they heavily contradict it. Superman, on the other hand is a different story because it's happened a number of times to make it iffy if some of the feats should be called "outliers" at that point, and not just twice or three times. You act like Superman always struggles when it comes to pushing a planet and always needs help and sure there are a number of times... but there's also been multiple instances of him clearly being capable of doing it on his own. Hell, New 52 Superman bench pressed the equivalent of one for five days straight with minimal sunlight and only broke one drop of sweat, and he's STILL considered the weakest canon Superman.

"So if superman defeats an universal being and then has problems to move a planet tomorrow, that can only mean the fight he won earlier was an outlier."

Or the fact that A. Superman's one of the most inconsistent comic book characters ever written in terms of his power set and NO ONE'S argued against this and B. Superman's power can depend on how much sunlight he has stored within him at the moment, and the author forgets to clarify to the reader how much he's got in him.

Spider-Man's one thing, Superman's a different problem.

"I didn't want that to be traited as a vs thread because I know it will be the civil war"

Once again, if that was the case, you should've just focused on the Superman voice feat. It's still false advertising because in the end this is a vs thread where the debate is Goku vs Superman, whether you add it to victories or not.

 

[Antoniofer]

Please stop quoting any comment in the thread, this makes difficult to read. Futhermore, this thread should be closed before get out of our hands

 

[Jeune_fou]

New52 is indeed the "weakest" version of Superman, but strangely while he had no problem to bench planet earth's mass, Post-crisis sometimes had problems (example: http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/98379/2318131-bb26cfede8bc21a42f2e219e.jpg). But as you said (very pertinently) it might be because of the sunlight ... let's say "dose" inside his body.

Anyway yeah Superman is definitely very inconsistent to sya the least ... so let's forget about this and let's focuse on the voice feat instead as you suggest it.

I do not know very mych about that ability. We should answer the following questions: did he use it again? Did it work against darkseid's spirit because he was ... a spirit? Or does it work on anyone? Since it's a scream, does it mean the attack is at sound speed? If yes: was darkseid's spirit in a condition he couldn't dodge? Does it wok one someone with a fighting speed that is vastly superioir to sound speed?