Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 5

[Notstn]

"By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person's flesh and blood" 'the world' is generally the term for 'universe' and 'phase' in Index. Kamachi has examples of separating the 'planet' from the 'world' various times so it's not a far-cry from possible universal level. It even says 'to the ends of the galaxy' which can be interpreted as going further or just a bit more. I'm not saying it's 100% universal but the logic is there.

Lol if he reached the galaxy he didn't reach the universe lol you're saying the galaxy is as big as universe? He added the tree to the cosmos

I think that part is moreso meant to symbolize the fact that he basically changed how "reality" was structured with the two trees - Qliphoth and Sephiroth being very core to it, he weaved a third tree in, again, it's likely symbolic as I said before, Kamachi's world and characters are very much occult based, not to mention his main inspiration for it - Liber AL vel Legis (The Book of the Law) by IRL Aleister Crowley, which is pretty crazy.

I'll just quote Wikipedia here (in relation to Crowley's idea of true will), it's pretty open to interpretation/confusing, I don't think Kamachi's idea is entirely the same (well I'm not even sure how to interpret it; this is just for reference on how crazy Crowley's stuff was) but it's still inspired by this:

Thelema roughly means "will" in Greek. The phrase True Will does not appear in The Book of the Law, the central sacred text of Thelema. Nevertheless, Aleister Crowley's various commentaries on the Book routinely postulate that each individual has a unique and incommensurable True Will that determines his or her proper course in life. Crowley's invention appears to be an attempt to explain how some actions may be wrong (or "false") when "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt". Actions that conform to True Will are thus considered to be correct, while willed actions that deviate from True Will may nevertheless be wrong. In The Book of the Law Crowley wrote "Do What Thou Wilt".
I think Kamachi's interpretation of that and his references to "true free will" (as heavily suggested by many characters) is basically similar to (paraphrasing): "there is no limit (in terms of its manifestation) to one's true free will, as long as one is doing (more accurrately - willing/wishing) what they know is right, nothing shall stop it". Again, just throwing ideas around, this crazy occult stuff isn't exactly easy to interpret in a single way. I don't really know how to scale Accelerator accurately either.

 

[KTouma545]

I think that part is moreso meant to symbolize the fact that he basically changed how "reality" was structured with the two trees - Qliphoth and Sephiroth being very core to it, he weaved a third tree in, again, it's likely symbolic as I said before, Kamachi's world and characters are very much occult based, not to mention his main inspiration for it - Liber AL vel Legis (The Book of the Law) by IRL Aleister Crowley, which is pretty crazy.

Boy that sounds concept manipulation like Aleister archetype controller. Aren't trees concepts? If you confirm what you said us Conceptual manipulation type 4 (?)

I wonder who's gonna be new villain after that since pumping accel like that. Hype

 

[Accelerate420]

So wait. Holistic espers use the macro to effect the micro, essentionally using the world itself to hurt the inidivudal. Accelerator used the Tree which embeded itself into reality I.E: the phase/world and attacked Coronzon from it. Espers use the 'micro' to effect the world which is the 'macro'. In this sense, doesn't he technically have galaxy to possibly universal attack range if he's able to take from the world itself to attack the individual? He didn't know specifically where Coronzon was after all aside from communicating, so it's possible he can attack everyone within the phase itself with it possibly. I may be misinterpreting that though. Also, it doesn't seem like it consumes Magic either, so does this mean he effectively has no recoil from it? Unless we see battle-damage in the epilogue it sounds like he's able to do 3C level attacks from focusing from the tree where-ever he wants on the individual without actually exploding the world.

 

[Notstn]

I think that part is moreso meant to symbolize the fact that he basically changed how "reality" was structured with the two trees - Qliphoth and Sephiroth being very core to it, he weaved a third tree in, again, it's likely symbolic as I said before, Kamachi's world and characters are very much occult based, not to mention his main inspiration for it - Liber AL vel Legis (The Book of the Law) by IRL Aleister Crowley, which is pretty crazy.

Boy that sounds concept manipulation like Aleister archetype controller. Aren't trees concepts? If you confirm what you said us Conceptual manipulation type 4 (?)
I wonder who's gonna be new villain after that since pumping accel like that. Hype

Archetype Controller is what Aleister used basically create large scale conflict, essentially it's what started the conflict between science and religion (as well as, conflicts within different branches of Christianity too). It's basically the ability to sway what others consider good or bad on a massive scale (it's not a solid good/bad mind control thing, moreso steering groups of people onto certain paths, I believe it can be resisted by a good portion, but again given its massive scale, it's would still cause major conflicts). That actually starts to relate to Thelemic principles to some extent (notion of what one "knows" to be right and wrong). It's not as deeply rooted as changing the fundamental laws of the world/universe, it seems Aleister himself was in shock, having misjudged Accelerator's full potential (once again, Aleister is starting to be shown as a huge failure, a very reoccurring theme in recent LNs, with all his plans falling apart, him having to act on instinct instead of his usual careful planning).

Also, I can't imagine how much restraint Accelerator had to show when Aleister let him decide whether to shoot him point blank or not, but again, that's one of the greatest things about Accel's character development, earlier in the LNs he would have shot him without a second thought. But at that point he hesitated and decided to let him live, knowing that despite Aleister being the big bad for most of LNs, bigger shit was happening on a much bigger scale. It's not the same as forgiveness but still, Accelerator showed mercy to his archenemy.

New villian? I think this is pretty much the end, there's only epilogue left. I'm pretty sure NT22 is the last LN. Had to come to an end eventually.

 

[Accelerate420]

It's not the Last LN due to what is brought up. There's new life-forms and Aiwass shows up at the end. The translator himself/herself says that it's 'absolutely not the end' of the series with how much questions are brought up. Kamachi himself said he could keep it going for 90 volumes around during OT. Strap yourself in because we're in for AT LEAST 2 more Index parts.

 

[KTouma545]

Aren't trees basically concepts or "layers" to overlap on reality (phase). That's still concept manipulation if we see it like that

On reddit they say it won't end with new testament. Let's see

 

[Notstn]

It's not the Last LN due to what is brought up. There's new life-forms and Aiwass shows up at the end. The translator himself/herself says that it's 'absolutely not the end' of the series with how much questions are brought up. Kamachi himself said he could keep it going for 90 volumes around during OT. Strap yourself in because we're in for AT LEAST 2 more Index parts.

Oh interesting, hopefully Kamachi will at least do some fanservice and have Aiwass (or whoever) possibly fill in the missing pieces/speculation regarding so many different things. Speculating is fun to an extent, but not when story ends with missing pieces, even if they're from the past, that'd make for a dissatisfying cliffhanger-like ending.

Also no idea if it's actually true or not but some say Accelerator ends up becoming the new "Superintendent" of AC. If that's actually true I guess that's another way to him to actually do some good, after all, AC is a really screwed up place. Hopefully he actually makes it what it appeared to be to most who weren't familiar with its darker secrets - a symbol of a new era in science (without the whole humans as lab rats thing, on top of huge amount of other screwed up shit like underground secret squads etc.). GROUP reuinion hype maybe? Would love to see the remaining members and how they've changed and matured.

Also going back to occult and symbolism, I guess Accelerator's "true free will" is really a sign that he has become objectively good. Maybe he can feel like a hero for once after beating himself over and over again. Maybe the fact that clones have genuinely forgiven him can finally make him stop trying to chase redemption over his past, moving on into the present. It's hard to not feel sorry for him after all (and yeah Touma has been through worse hell but I mean, I don't really like his "save everyone" attitude, he's just not as interesting as a character IMO).

Also why is Puzzle listed as his "Equipment", I mean she's more of a companion, she's "alive" after all and seems to genuinely care for him.

 

[Accelerate420]

Yeah, that is true. The way NT ends here is very "KEep watch for the next volume/book" like. You'll see.

 

[KTouma545]

Also why is Puzzle listed as his "Equipment", I mean she's more of a companion, she's "alive" after all and seems to genuinely care for him.

Lmfao told you it needs a huge revision. But qlihpah really is like Ciel for Rimuru.

 

[Accelerate420]

More importantly, how do we tier Coronzon's immortality? It seems she's reliant on a sort of abstract conceptual existence of the sephiroh in some form. She basically cannot die unless you're able to mess with abstract conceptual trees. Should her immortality be tied to a concept then?

 

[KTouma545]

More importantly, how do we tier Coronzon's immortality? It seems she's reliant on a sort of abstract conceptual existence of the sephiroh in some form. She basically cannot die unless you're able to mess with abstract conceptual trees. Should her immortality be tied to a concept then?

Seems like type 5, 6 and 8

 

[Accelerate420]

Coronzon's 'Nuit-Hadit' attack at full power seems to be comparable to Othinus's Gungnir too through narration. She was even going to destroy the boat itself if it went off-course and it had to be stopped by a miracle in that situation. Can we infer she's possibly Universal through this feat alone? I'm thinking she's obviously planet level /at least/ with Universal or more durability to her, but that line really makes you think. Not to mention Accelerator easily dispersed that attack, meaning (as it always was), magnitude doesn't matter. To add to this, it's an attack concentrated on a singular point rather than a universal nuke, which makes sense.

 

[Notstn]

I would say Aiwass had 1/5/9 without an avatar, since avatar's destruction doesn't kill Aiwass, the mortality of the avatar is irrelevant. Maybe it's possible to scale Coronzon based on that? Egyptian Gods (Deities) seemed to be able to perform proper type 4 reincarnation rituals, not sure if Aiwass has that type of power. I'm also not sure why it's classified as an "Angel", Aiwass seems to be unrelated to Christianity (Unless this is Crowley's Aiwass in which case he's the first fallen angel, aka Satan). Aiwass in Kamachi's world is sort of a mystery, it's not known what it really is but drawing some parallels, Aiwass is likely just a guise of another ancient deity. Although unlike in Crowley's works, it's pretty definitely not Satan.

It's also ordered far above Christian Angels and Archangels. Aiwass is an ambigious reference in itself, since there are two distinct entities named that, one from IRL Crowley's work and one from Kamachi's Toaruverse (Inspired by former). In case of the former, "Holy Guardian Angel" turned out to be Satan (even more surprisingly, Satan was somewhat not as depicted by Christians, being more of a neutral entity in that case).

MGs and Thelemic "Gods" are likely 1/2/3/8 (8 being the crucial factor here). 4 is questionable in their case, it does not appear they can revivie each other or beings significantly more powerful than them. MGs can definitely make use of 4 to some degree, but dependending on what exactly, they may depend on certain items. I'm not sure but since Thelemites use different principles, they may not be able to ressurrect anyone, or at the very least not humans.

IB as a weapon, when weilded correctly can definitely negate the second group's immortality (Aleister pretty much did exactly that a long time ago, he also lost it as a result, since again, he was the previous weilder of IB (in a more refined form - he shot it as/in an arrow)). That was a MG-type immortal, not a Deity type immortal however.

Coronzon's 'Nuit-Hadit' attack at full power seems to be comparable to Othinus's Gungnir too through narration. She was even going to destroy the boat itself if it went off-course and it had to be stopped by a miracle in that situation. Can we infer she's possibly Universal through this feat alone? I'm thinking she's obviously planet level /at least/ with Universal or more durability to her, but that line really makes you think. Not to mention Accelerator easily dispersed that attack, meaning (as it always was), magnitude doesn't matter.
To add to this, it's an attack concentrated on a singular point rather than a universal nuke, which makes sense.

That level of power is to be expected of beings like Coronzon or Aiwass, I don't think that is particularly surprising or unexpected.

 

[Malox1696]

NT 22 is fully out time to throw the tier list in the bin

 

[KTouma545]

In this sense, doesn't he technically have galaxy to possibly universal attack range if he's able to take from the world itself to attack the individual? He didn't know specifically where Coronzon was after all aside from communicating, so it's possible he can attack everyone within the phase itself with it possibly. I may be misinterpreting that though. Also, it doesn't seem like it consumes Magic either, so does this mean he effectively has no recoil from it? Unless we see battle-damage in the epilogue it sounds like he's able to do 3C level attacks from focusing from the tree where-ever he wants on the individual without actually exploding the world.

Doesn't have recoil in the Epilogue. Time to upgrade. 545 + Will + Accel is the ultimate squad. Does surpassing the Abyss grants him basically nigh omniscience?

 

[Accelerate420]

In this sense, doesn't he technically have galaxy to possibly universal attack range if he's able to take from the world itself to attack the individual? He didn't know specifically where Coronzon was after all aside from communicating, so it's possible he can attack everyone within the phase itself with it possibly. I may be misinterpreting that though. Also, it doesn't seem like it consumes Magic either, so does this mean he effectively has no recoil from it? Unless we see battle-damage in the epilogue it sounds like he's able to do 3C level attacks from focusing from the tree where-ever he wants on the individual without actually exploding the world.

Doesn't have recoil in the Epilogue. Time to upgrade. 545 + Will + Accel is the ultimate squad. Does surpassing the Abyss grants him basically nigh omniscience?
I'm iffy on nigh omnisience. He should in the context of the verse but idk how applicable it is outside of it. That being said, I don't see why he'll have magic recoil anymore when his power is now Holistic in a sense. It allows him to use the Macro of the Universe (the phase) to attack the Micro (the individual) with the power of reality itself on an abstract, physical, and possibly conceptual level to a degree. The output is confirmed to be /easily/ Galaxy level, but being able to cause tremors through a galaxy is more or less cause for Multi-Galaxy. I, personally, believe that since he LITERALLY applied the tree to the entire universe itself and was able to use that macro to punt Coronzon, who also has universe feats, out of her flesh and blood vessel, it is an extremely focused single-target Universe level attack as it uses the Macro of the 'world' (Phase in Kamachi language) to effect the micro. That's just my opinion though and you're all free to interpret it as you wish.

 

[Notstn]

NT 22 is fully out time to throw the tier list in the bi

Seems so. Some dialogue between Aleister and Accelerator was pretty moving and pretty much confirmed that even Aleister did not really understand Accelerator's potential until now.

This was the moment when the child surpassed the adult. "You succeeded, #1… Your world was beyond my reach."

Accelerator showing mercy to his "archenemy", the one who caused him all the suffering not to mention countless others. This time he had no reason to show mercy, he didn't need Aleister anymore and yet, he did.

"You followed me this far, so I know you can think of several cruel methods of gouging into my heart. You know what you could take from me to hurt me the most. But you chose not to. That change is something I did not foresee." "Are you kidding me? Quit assessing me right in front of me."

Seems like once again Accelerator is left to clean up the mess, though I guess despite being called a monster over and over again, Accelerator seems to be somewhat kind and good-willed, after all, I guess Aleister "was" much of a monster, by a huge mile.

"If you hate the adults, then take control yourself. I leave you with the full authority of board chairman. Create the kind of Academy City where everyone remaining can smile together."

Really hope Accelerator uses that to do good. Maybe enough to not be seen by others as a monster anymore? Aleister seemed to have pulled of "it's a prank bro" with Aiwass' help and retreated somewhere, using the body that was split from the demon as a temporary vessel. I really did hope Aleister died. I wonder if Accelerator not killing him right there was a mistake. I guess we'll see.

One of the founders of the Golden Dawn, shows up, I guess that is the sort of monster that may spit on MGs, Level 6 Espers or even Deities. I guess it's the new villai:

And somewhere else, Anna Sprengel looked up. She had sensed it, so she smiled thinly. Once her power returned, she could destroy even Aiwass in a single attack.

Well ... okay. Scaling is completely broken now I guess. Level 6 (?) Accelerator/Puzzle now also holding all of AC's secrets/knowledge as the new superintendent, this new Aleister (still seemingly depowered), the founder of Golden Dawn (surpassing Deities), Aiwass itself, MGs, I mean how do you even compare all that.

As overpowered as she is, seemingly needing an Esper to deal with Touma may mean Accelerator/Puzzle actually standing a rather slim chance, but a chance nevertheless (I guess he can do what Takitsubo could if she were level 5; He may be too valuable/irreplaceable to get killed, something Aleister used to note about him, still not explained why).

Also maybe Sprengel has a weakness despite unbound power, she's (technically; who the hell knows yet) an Aeon of Osiris magician, stands to reason that the recoil effect from using Thelema directly could actually do some damage, hence needing Takitsubo, also lacking the ability to manipulate AIM fields (also Thelemic phenomenon). Seems like a weak spot of some sort?

Still, even with everything combined, Sprengel seems to on an entirely different level, far far beyond gods and deities ... but still lacking something.

 

[Accelerate420]

NT 22 is fully out time to throw the tier list in the bi

Seems so. Some dialogue between Aleister and Accelerator was pretty moving and pretty much confirmed that even Aleister did not really understand Accelerator's potential until now.


This was the moment when the child surpassed the adult. "You succeeded, #1… Your world was beyond my reach."

Accelerator showing mercy to his "archenemy", the one who caused him all the suffering not to mention countless others. This time he had no reason to show mercy, he didn't need Aleister anymore and yet, he did.


"You followed me this far, so I know you can think of several cruel methods of gouging into my heart. You know what you could take from me to hurt me the most. But you chose not to. That change is something I did not foresee." "Are you kidding me? Quit assessing me right in front of me."

Seems like once again Accelerator is left to clean up the mess, though I guess despite being called a monster over and over again, Accelerator seems to be somewhat kind and good-willed, after all, I guess Aleister "was" much of a monster, by a huge mile.


"If you hate the adults, then take control yourself. I leave you with the full authority of board chairman. Create the kind of Academy City where everyone remaining can smile together."

Really hope Accelerator uses that to do good. Maybe enough to not be seen by others as a monster anymore? Aleister seemed to have pulled of "it's a prank bro" with Aiwass' help and retreated somewhere, using the body that was split from the demon as a temporary vessel. I really did hope Aleister died. I wonder if Accelerator not killing him right there was a mistake. I guess we'll see.

One of the founders of the Golden Dawn, shows up, I guess that is the sort of monster that may spit on MGs, Level 6 Espers or even Deities. I guess it's the new villai:


And somewhere else, Anna Sprengel looked up. She had sensed it, so she smiled thinly. Once her power returned, she could destroy even Aiwass in a single attack.

Well ... okay. Scaling is completely broken now I guess. Level 6 (?) Accelerator/Puzzle now also holding all of AC's secrets/knowledge as the new superintendent, this new Aleister (still seemingly depowered), the founder of Golden Dawn (surpassing Deities), Aiwass itself, MGs, I mean how do you even compare all that.

As overpowered as she is, seemingly needing an Esper to deal with Touma may mean Accelerator/Puzzle actually standing a rather slim chance, but a chance nevertheless (I guess he can do what Takitsubo could if she were level 5; He may be too valuable/irreplaceable to get killed, something Aleister used to note about him, still not explained why).

Also maybe Sprengel has a weakness despite unbound power, she's (technically; who the hell knows yet) an Aeon of Osiris magician, stands to reason that the recoil effect from using Thelema directly could actually do some damage, hence needing Takitsubo, also lacking the ability to manipulate AIM fields (also Thelemic phenomenon). Seems like a weak spot of some sort?

Still, even with everything combined, Sprengel seems to on an entirely different level, far far beyond gods and deities ... but still lacking something.

One thing to keep in mind that Index is not about power levels. Hence by scaling can be a bit weird. There are power-levels to give scale, but Index has always been about the kit, the techniques, and the rock-paper-scissors. It's like how Magic Gods could create phases and wipe out existence but could get insta-gimped by current Accel and World Rejector. It's less of a game of 'who holds the most power' and more so about 'who holds the most versatile kit'. Anna might not even be on the same output as full power magic gods, but her kit might be so broken she has no need to fear them similar to how Coronzon felt they were more nusances than threats. I guess that's what makes Index so interesting. Even the ones with the most options and powers can still be tripped up and done in by someone who has the better kit against them.

 

[LazyHunter]

I finished reading NT22. I'm a bit surprised Carissa and Acqua didn't end up taking part in this whole mess. We should probably wait for a day or so to give everyone interested time to read the novel before making a CRT.

 

[KTouma545]

I'm iffy on nigh omnisience. He should in the context of the verse but idk how applicable it is outside of it. That being said, I don't see why he'll have magic recoil anymore when his power is now Holistic in a sense. It allows him to use the Macro of the Universe (the phase) to attack the Micro (the individual) with the power of reality itself on an abstract, physical, and possibly conceptual level to a degree. The output is confirmed to be /easily/ Galaxy level, but being able to cause tremors through a galaxy is more or less cause for Multi-Galaxy. I, personally, believe that since he LITERALLY applied the tree to the entire universe itself and was able to use that macro to punt Coronzon, who also has universe feats, out of her flesh and blood vessel, it is an extremely focused single-target Universe level attack as it uses the Macro of the 'world' (Phase in Kamachi language) to effect the micro. That's just my opinion though and you're all free to interpret it as you wish.

Accel applying a third tree on the phase and controlling the other two seems like reality warping plus can't he manipulate AIMs as well? That's freaking limited reality warping. Prove me wrong

Basically the Will is God ain't it?

 

[Malox1696]

he already has reality warping, that's how both esper and magic work

 

[Accelerate420]

I'm iffy on nigh omnisience. He should in the context of the verse but idk how applicable it is outside of it. That being said, I don't see why he'll have magic recoil anymore when his power is now Holistic in a sense. It allows him to use the Macro of the Universe (the phase) to attack the Micro (the individual) with the power of reality itself on an abstract, physical, and possibly conceptual level to a degree. The output is confirmed to be /easily/ Galaxy level, but being able to cause tremors through a galaxy is more or less cause for Multi-Galaxy. I, personally, believe that since he LITERALLY applied the tree to the entire universe itself and was able to use that macro to punt Coronzon, who also has universe feats, out of her flesh and blood vessel, it is an extremely focused single-target Universe level attack as it uses the Macro of the 'world' (Phase in Kamachi language) to effect the micro. That's just my opinion though and you're all free to interpret it as you wish.

Accel applying a third tree on the phase and controlling the other two seems like reality warping plus can't he manipulate AIMs as well? That's freaking limited reality warping. Prove me wrong
Basically the Will is God ain't it?

It's more so abstract/conceptual manipulation that works on the material and immaterial.

 

[Notstn]

he already has reality warping, that's how both esper and magic work

Most Espers aren't really reality warpers, at least not in a conventional sense, I mean only Kakine and Accelerator could be considered such (yeah current Accelerator is a full on reality warper). Not only are most Espers limited to how they can warp their own PR, they also have to be able to project it into reality (hence the differences in abilities and types of abilities, ie. pyrokinesis or electromastery, with Espers generally being limited to one type, Dual/Multi-Skill being something considered "impossible" without fine grained AIM field manipulation (Seems currently Accelerator is the only one capable of manipulating AIM fields (and by extension, PRs), Takitsubo reaching level 5, if she ever does, also gaining that ability).

Note that Accelerator was not a Multi-Skill Esper, despite his heavy use of Aerokinesis for a variety of stuff, he most likely manifested it (my guess) through rapid changes in air pressure, likely displacing air and creating vacuums which in turn created significant force as they drew air back in.

Basically the Will is God ain't it?

Not really, it was a combination of the third tree supporting Accelerator and providing a huge amount of power to him, at the same time processing all of everything Puzzle telepathically gave him an understanding of (without the Will of the Misaka network, it's unlikely even Accelerator would be able to process that much) on top of his own already broken power, from how I understood the translation, he was able to comprehend all that with the new wings probably being more or less symbolic showing that Accelerator has become a Thelemic entity ("Level 6" as some would say), with the whole integration of the third tree and splitting the demon likely already being manifested through his "true free will"/Magick.

I guess one last small nitpick regarding terminology of the occult, calling him a Thelemic "God" (Or anything of sorts), or calling the network that, would probably not be correct as Thelemites reject the Idol Theory, their power coming from within as said "true free will" (doing what a Thelemite knows to be "right" unconditionally becoming reality - the saying "do what thou wilt" as per the Book of the Law). Though I guess it helps understand "scaling" in regards to MGs, if you consider the "unconditional" part, unlike MGs who heavily depend on huge amounts of mana, certain magical objects/artifacts and complex rituals for their peak power to manifest.

Thelemic powers are inherently not meant to (although can be) be used to do "wrong" things, another big sign of Accelerator's current mindset aligning with true will was showing Aleister mercy instead of torturing and killing him right there and then, something Accelerator would have done in the past. As for right or wrong, that would obviously be relative to users' own beliefs (There's the whole philosophical jerk on good and evil often being entirely down to perspective). That's as far as my knowledge of all that occult stuff goes I guess.

Assuming he kept "true will" (it may be beyond just calculations or anything alike at this point, but rather some sort of "ascension" that he underwent gaining immense understanding and having an epiphany as everything came together for him), it seems to make him an extremely good candidate for being the new superintendent, it really showed that he did not have bad intentions at heart and may really be able to fix the messed up parts of AC.

(Not killing Aleister did let him survive once again, and as much as I hate him, if Accelerator did kill him, the long and painstaking character development Accelerator underwent would likely have made him undo that in a snap, which would have been sad, after all, can he be a hero and a good person instead of a "monster" for once?)

Okay I'm done with this massive post. And god I hope with Puzzle around, maybe Accelerator will stop being so gloomy all the time. Some fan art of him and Puzzle together both smiling was really heartwarming in a way, it's not often you see him smile (non manically). Often disappointing to see discussions about him as just a powerhouse of crazy abilities, missing a huge part in why many like him, it being far less to do with anything supernatural, in fact rather a transition and learning restraint him becoming a very likable character (and okay I guess this is probably weird, but if others want to see him as a monster and he sees himself as a monster, what better companion could he have than another "monster"?). Weird and also heartwarming!

 

[KTouma545]

Note that Accelerator was not a Multi-Skill Esper, despite his heavy use of Aerokinesis for a variety of stuff, he most likely manifested it (my guess) through rapid changes in air pressure, likely displacing air and creating vacuums which in turn created significant force as they drew air back in.

So you are saying that Accel can now potentially use all esper abilities shown in the series just by manipulating his AIM and therefore PR ? That's broken AF

Also Isn't the new tree like an artificial divinity though with the Will playing God part and last order Jesus, while accel being the first angel? I could now see re reading Aleister backstory where his plan headed to. He said he would've given the world a new God. Didn't Accel just finished it?

Misaka clones are all over the world granting an intangible omniscience, misaka networks are linked by AIM making the world becoming saturated. Aren't AIM the foundation for an artificial heaven? But Can this artificial heaven coexist with the world? Most likely not. Seems like it's heading toward parallel realities. Thoughts?

By the way we need to make new thread for tier revisions cause even current Touma IT needs a huge upgrade

 

[Zensum]

Looks like some interesting tiering changes are coming.

 

[DontTalkDT]

For protocoll: I have finished the volume.

Lol, at Aleister being too much of a failure to die.


Gonna get into the debate later, though I can already say that I see various things not quite as high end as suggested by some here.

 

[Schnee_One]

WHAT

DID I MISS

 

[Malox1696]

no all esper are reality warpers and magican too, esper are limited to their personal reality and can only change things inside their AIM by changing the outcome of quantum physic, magician use idol theory to pretty much "summon" changes in reality from other phases


and no accel just made a change with the third tree he is not MG lvl or anything, he just gained priority over other phases and complexity

 

[Accelerate420]

No one said he was MG level.

 

[KTouma545]

and no accel just made a change with the third tree he is not MG lvl or anything, he just gained priority over other phases and complexity

None said he is MG tier though. He is literally Galaxy level with the aid of the tree and negating this is lowballing... Also he is linked 24/7 to the Will and qlihpah.

 

[Notstn]

Well this turned out to be a huge post so I split it into a few parts about "Puzzlecelerator" (they do make a fun couple don't they?).

A kind-of-big mistake in his profile regarding "Remote Vector Control".

Also his "Remote Vector Control" part is not entirely correct, while yes he does have that ability and has feats of using that particular ability (it's along the lines of matter/energy manipulation at a distance) in angelic forms, the hostages feat was not "Remote Vector Control". I'll note that Accelerator, especially post headshot is an incredibly skilled Aerokinesis user, a vastly improved and perfected form of his early wind control (In LNs at that point he practically used Aerokinesis as Telekinesis in the hostages part, it's a bit less obvious in the anime, same goes for his (to note, that was before he enraged and wings popped out) weird anime feat of what looked like teleportation (likely being a vacuum corridor/propulsion through it) also being an example of what Aerokinesis is capable of. Though as stated earlier, he does not have Aerokinesis as an Esper ability nor was he ever multi-skill (well his wings were not an Esper ability so that doesn't count).

By definition his vector control is essentially matter and energy manipulation aka - his ability relies on existing proxies through which it can be manifested, early on he mostly generated a small amount of kinetic energy using his own body and then amplified it by thousands doing stuff like shattering ground around him etc (that's going back to when he didn't even know his ability worked as "vector control", just amplification/reflection and later redirection, he had immense potential but at the same time he didn't really know the huge amounts of applications of his ability).

A lot of his post-headshot "hax" comes from going from using his ability as something as just raw destructive power (amplification) to extremely precise and delicate "vector control" (he's surrounded by various proxies - from potential energy and energy carriers themselves, being able to easily manipulate radiation (he blocks UV radition hence his albino appearance, that's basically messing with force carriers)). Given that atmosphere/air pretty much constantly surrounds him and everything else as well as it being easier to manipulate/calculate (unlike something like quantum manipulation).

Mastered "proxy" ability: Aerokinesis.

Aerokinesis is pretty much what he continued to learn and develop and improve as his primary proxy (an actual Aerokinesis level 5 Esper could likely do the same though there were no such examples). Why?

• Flight.
• Being able to travel at huge speeds without needing to propel himself against something (basically a requirement for controlled flight).
• Atmospheric control (everything below falls under it pretty much).

• Generating massive typhoons/tornadoes at range or close by.
• Awareness of his surroundings without having to necessarily see them.
• Air displacement (vacuum pockets aka easy potential energy), that particular ability is what makes it look like he is capable of Telekinesis (well "vector control" is not strictly Telekinesis, he doesn't have Telekinesis, despite the certain parallels).

Last one deserves a honorable mention, it's a very very underrated Aerokinetic ability - he could turn a regular human into mince using it (not someone with high degree of physical durability, ie. physical attacks basically were nothing to Acuqa at his peak thanks to another "hax" ability, namely "Divine Mother's Mercy" (in anime it was translated as "Divine Mother's Veneration", not sure which is more correct) - Aerokinesis still being a kinetic-energy manipulation based ability hence the name). Also what's listed as "Vector Slice" is also (usually not that) but another application of Aerokinesis.

Remember Airbenders from Avatar? Imagine that on massive massive steroids and instant.

Just for fun, Accelerator (OT19) versus Accelerator (Pre-headshot).

Ironically that's how post-headshot Accelerator without massive "hax" could kill the pre-headshot version with ease, he knew his old version had a weakness, the infamous "pullback method" (it was a once-use wildcard for Kihara, Accelerator is adaptable, it's something he would have adjusted in his passive shield afterwards, similar how his first fight with Kakine went, at that point he was able to adapt thousands more types of forces/energy into his shield, compared to before when he couldn't even adapt to one - namely Kihara's method). He could cut his head off by applying that method except using Aerokinesis instead of just, well, doing that using an axe.

Back to present: Accelerator the Thelemite (NT22).

Going by Thelemic theory I guess it's actually hard to devise a situation where he would be against a MG 1v1. The "true will" scales massively depending on the nature of actions behind it (mostly whether it's being used to do "right", to a degree you could compare that to Christian ideas of right/wrong or rather sins). If a Magic God was attempting to do something like kill random residents of AC, true will's "unconditionality" clause would apply, but this wouldn't be a duel of any sort, it would likely, depending on the actual thought, kill or erase or completely depower such MG.

Comparatively, if a MG was doing nothing bad and just idly doing their own thing, randomly killing them (may be possible) but would be a lot harder since true will itself is much weaker and lacks the completely broken "unconditional" clause. It's really hard to scale someone who is capable of using true will due to that factor. Given that current MGs are pretty depowered and that even without any additional power (aside from Puzzle who pretty much reverse engineers magic and tells Accelerator how to counter it) Accelerator nearly killed a MG (at the cost of KO'ing himself due to magical recoil as he can't use his self surgery stuff in combat very efficiently) though it didn't kill him, and usually most things that don't kill him he is able to recover from (see explanation above).

With the above in mind, actual "combat" with a Thelemite capable of true will, assuming it's clear cut that Thelemite is on the correct/good (or in Thelemic terms, "right") side (I don't know the exact principle behind how assessment of that works, but likely explained somewhere in the Book of the Law in more detail), is not a good idea and is not going to be much of combat. It's an almost "hax" ability with a catch, unconditionality only applies to what is "right" (again, steering into Thelemic principles of "right" here). Because of that, tiering a true will user is extremely hard to do. Without using true will, Thelemites would rely on magick - a (significantly) more powerful and less explored (in Toaruverse) evolution of magic not reliant on Idol Theory, more compatible with Espers - Accelerator can likely use it without recoil, although anything sufficiently powerful still causes a variable degree of recoil (true will may be exempt from that). I believe Aleister actually had to use something as an anti-recoil device for Blasting Rod, despite it being magic, its power without dampening the recoil still harming/or even completely blowing apart the user. Just like with magic, use of Thelemic magick requires practise/training, likely a further path of development for Accelerator and Puzzle.

Also to correct myself earlier, according to a lot of people on Reddit/Discord, it seems that Accelerator's "ascension" was not into a complete Aeon of Horus but beyond the Aeons entirely. I'll note that I'm not sure what that actually means, again, occult stuff has a lot of symbolism, trying to work out what implies is extremely difficult for that reason (I guess "Level 6" - ascending and experiencing the artificial untainted by phases "heaven", becoming a true will user (and a Thelemite by extension, which is similar to a magician but does not draw from Idol Theory if I understand this right)). If that's correct he may be bordering on being something like an human avatar/projection in a physical world while "himself" existing beyond it (again go figure, not an occult expert). But it seems this is a beginning of a new Aeon (not just due to Accelerator, so much other stuff happened in NT22, it seems Aleister fused with the demon unwillingly becoming a something like a failed (0% chance of success) Magic God and finally stripped of his humanity, something he tried avoiding doing but failing in the end).

How did Accelerator even survive everything that happened in OT-NT that pierced his shield?

Oh and regarding recoil - yeah that's another thing, if you're wondering how he even survived to the point of NT22, Dr Accelerator is on call, he is able to save a lot of people with heavy injuries (Misaka Worst as one example) including himself as a special case as he can respond near instantly, in the anime while the gore was toned down, in LNs, Aiwass almost completely sliced Accelerator in two - how do you survive that? Pass the blood through the massive open wound, repairing it with self-microsurgery afterwards (that particular case was with angelic state - dark wings, still an Aeon of Osiris phenomenon, I think white wings was Horus and third iteration "platinum" wings that don't do much, symbolized ascension beyond Aeons) augumenting his Esper ability and durability, that degree of injury would likely disrupt his calculations without angelic state regardless). Small note on platinum wings, as it was likely symbolic, I doubt we'll see them again.

He would unironically make an incredible doctor due to being get a full analysis of someone's internal state completely and knowledge of what to do as well as being able to operate without intrusion, in NT22 it was even stated that Aleister's body was too heavily injured for Accelerator to do that (although he did let Aleister live and I presume Aleister managed to use Spiritual Tripping with whatever Aiwass gave him to switch bodies once Accelerator left). A much heavier but stronger application of "self-surgery" is understanding the principle behind recoil, allowing him to cast while nullifying recoil (I assume this is way too difficult in combat and likely takes pretty much all of his "vector control" capacity; he's done that once - he's not a regular magic user and is unlikely to be, at least in combat).

A very interesting interpretation of what happened by "MasterOfMankind" on Reddit (Trinity Realized)

There used to be an alternative plan by Aleister where Kazakiri, LO and Accelerator could fuse into the Holy Trinity. This seems to be an alternative twist to that:

Link: https://old.reddit.com/r/toarumajutsunoindex/comments/ayxmbb/_/ejbouj4/

The Will of the Network is God.

Qliphah = Coronzon. She is the demon that dwells in the abyss of Clonoth's Da'at, controlling who can ascend or descend the tree.

Accelerator is essentially the first of the tree's Archangels, harnessing its power in a tangible form and manipulating reality with it. The fact that he sprouted wings of light similar to Aiwass rams the comparison home.

Last Order is the earthly equivalent of the Will in the sense that she can manage all of the Misakas and speaks for the Network as a whole, so she's the Tree's closest analogue to Jesus.

Clonoth is to Earth what the Sephiroth is to the universe. The Misakas are everywhere, and their Network encompasses everything.

Since the energy that binds that Misakas together is made of AIM energy, and AIM is the foundation of an artificial heaven - the Imaginary Number District - the world is becoming saturated with AIM which travels around the world in a fashion similar to leylines. In other words, it's not impossible that the world could end up simultaneously coexisting with an artificial heaven created by the tree.

My take on the above (Thelemic Trinity?)

While I don't really agree with the said explanation (it seems to be going too far back into Aeon of Osiris, tying into Christianity versus going past Aeons entirely). It's plausible, that explanation is very similar to how Christian God worked, Son (Last Order)/Father (Accelerator kinda, but mostly the fact that Puzzle telepathically filled his head with all that just prior)/Holy Spirit (Misaka Network, that's the alteration from Aleister's trinity where Kazakiri would fit), only when complete (which is what may have happened) does it create a "God".

Since Abrahamic God does not really make appearances as "God" (Maybe only as voice) in mythology of Abrahamic religions, plus hey how do you even concentrate all that in one point let alone break reality enough to integrate it, oh hey, yeah, Accelerator (Going by Christian mythodology now, Archangels did make appearances in human world, having been granted something akin to Abrahamic God's power).

Thelemic Trinity and Accelerator being a Thelemic Archangel? Maybe, but that wouldn't align with Thelemic principles as Accelerator would no longer be human in a conventional sense, although I suppose ascended humans could be considered higher Thelemic entities while still being human.

Alternatively, this is beyond Aeons, though this would still be leveraging Thelemic principles (as Aeons can coexist) for Accelerator to manifest anything into that reality.

The One Who Wields the Power of God? I guess that would make a lot of sense in that context. In Christianity, first Archangel was Michael, the most powerful Archangel, one who could hold that title.

This now seems oddly appropriate, consider this from the Bible (Old Testament/Hebrew Teachings):

At Daniel 12:1, Daniel is informed that Michael will arise during the "time of the end".

 

[DontTalkDT]

None said he is MG tier though. He is literally Galaxy level with the aid of the tree and negating this is lowballing... Also he is linked 24/7 to the Will and qlihpah.

24/7 is something that has yet to be shown. Might be a temporary state.

And shaking a galaxy isn't galaxy level. It's probably 4-A, though.

 

[Accelerate420]

The Will of the Network is God.

Qliphah = Coronzon. She is the demon that dwells in the abyss of Clonoth's Da'at, controlling who can ascend or descend the tree.

Accelerator is essentially the first of the tree's Archangels, harnessing its power in a tangible form and manipulating reality with it. The fact that he sprouted wings of light similar to Aiwass rams the comparison home.

Last Order is the earthly equivalent of the Will in the sense that she can manage all of the Misakas and speaks for the Network as a whole, so she's the Tree's closest analogue to Jesus.

Clonoth is to Earth what the Sephiroth is to the universe. The Misakas are everywhere, and their Network encompasses everything.

Since the energy that binds that Misakas together is made of AIM energy, and AIM is the foundation of an artificial heaven - the Imaginary Number District - the world is becoming saturated with AIM which travels around the world in a fashion similar to leylines. In other words, it's not impossible that the world could end up simultaneously coexisting with an artificial heaven created by the tree.

That is an interesting interpretation, but I believe it low-balls the feat a bit. It's not limited to the planet itself, as Kamachi differentiates the term 'world' and 'planet' as two separate things quite often in Index. There's also two literary terms that refer to the 'universe' in that same feat. Cosmos and 'The World'. It's applied on the universe itself on an abstract level similar to what the Sephirot and Qliphoth is. It spreads throughout the universe and isn't limited to Earth itself. It essentionally embedded itself in the phase. One could say this is a direct reference and/trait similar to Nuit. Being part of the universe and space, which is what Will is now. I do believe this also means AIM has also been practically spread all over the planet too, which will be interesting if it has any side-effects. It's an interesting interpretation, but it devalues a bit of what actually happens. Even if we're to say it's only limited to the Earth, that's just clearly false as the usage of 'cosmos' and even 'galaxy' would not even be needed even if it's flowery, because it implies the space beyond the planet in any term.

 

[Malox1696]

None said he is MG tier though. He is literally Galaxy level with the aid of the tree and negating this is lowballing... Also he is linked 24/7 to the Will and qlihpah.

Not really, he is not galaxy lvl, but we should remove that he is restriction to magnitude of force as the novel further reinforce it in this volume, he just did something similar to fiamma (when he fixed the elements) but he, unlike fiamma, has no way to replicate it in power (as fiamma has the HR) he just stomps lower priority rules like "I'm a god, so I'm immortal" "unbreakable shield" etc as he has more priority and complexity over them, not use how it's applicable in the VS battle forum


generally speaking power in index means nothing alone, priority and complexity are much more important and rare

 

[KTouma545]

24/7 is something that has yet to be shown. Might be a temporary state.

And shaking a galaxy isn't galaxy level. It's probably 4-A, though.

Its interesting how it says that the tree was with him since the very beginning supporting the strongest lvl 5 esper all the time. Interesting also how Qliphah says her master is the one who controls the new invisible third tree. Last order too. Basically turning his choker on connects him to the tree.

THROUGHLY shaking a galaxy is MINIMUM 3C lmfao dude you think he should've destroyed the galaxy with everyone in it? I dont think he's universal, but shaking the very ends of the galaxy puts him at 3C and thats a fact.

 

[Malox1696]

guys shaking the galaxy is obv figuratively, kamachi just meant the rules of the galaxy, it's even more reinforced by the mention of angel fall as it messed with the rules not physical power

 

[Notstn]

24/7 is something that has yet to be shown. Might be a temporary state.

And shaking a galaxy isn't galaxy level. It's probably 4-A, though.

Its interesting how it says that the tree was with him since the very beginning supporting the strongest lvl 5 esper all the time.
Interesting also how Qliphah says her master is the one who controls the new invisible third tree. Last order too. Basically turning his choker on connects him to the tree.

THROUGHLY shaking a galaxy is MINIMUM 3C lmfao dude you think he should've destroyed the galaxy with everyone in it? I dont think he's universal, but shaking the very ends of the galaxy puts him at 3C and thats a fact.

He could destroy the solar system and somewhat the through gravity manipulation (domino effect, he doesn't need to do a lot, messing with gravity would, if done in a way intended to destroy everything would pretty much drive itself beyond a certain point).

With enough practice he may be able to use magick to also be able to do that through alternative means. Also Accelerator doesn't control the new tree per se, it's basically going back to Abrahamic mythology and Accelerator being the the first Archangel (Michael) who possessed the power pretty much equivalent to "God" and ruled as "God". The second Archangel, Lucifer, was also defeated by him, banishing him from heaven (Fallen Lucifer created his own domain - hell of which he was the ruler of). I think Accelerator's connection to the network is more or less intrinsic at this point (after his ascension). He's a part of it now, especially if he ascended beyond Aeons, with a human avatar remaining now (which allows him to be a Thelemite).

Now this is the catch where true will could not be used at its power, IB's interactions with Fiamma showed that destroying everything and recreating it is "wrong". Going by that, true will, would not unconditionally destroy everything.

 

[Malox1696]

Well this turned out to be a huge post so I split it into a few parts about "Puzzlecelerator" (they do make a fun couple don't they?).----
A kind-of-big mistake in his profile regarding "Remote Vector Control".

Also his "Remote Vector Control" part is not entirely correct, while yes he does have that ability and has feats of using that particular ability (it's along the lines of matter/energy manipulation at a distance) in angelic forms, the hostages feat was not "Remote Vector Control". I'll note that Accelerator, especially post headshot is an incredibly skilled Aerokinesis user, a vastly improved and perfected form of his early wind control (In LNs at that point he practically used Aerokinesis as Telekinesis in the hostages part, it's a bit less obvious in the anime, same goes for his (to note, that was before he enraged and wings popped out) weird anime feat of what looked like teleportation (likely being a vacuum corridor/propulsion through it) also being an example of what Aerokinesis is capable of. Though as stated earlier, he does not have Aerokinesis as an Esper ability nor was he ever multi-skill (well his wings were not an Esper ability so that doesn't count).

By definition his vector control is essentially matter and energy manipulation aka - his ability relies on existing proxies through which it can be manifested, early on he mostly generated a small amount of kinetic energy using his own body and then amplified it by thousands doing stuff like shattering ground around him etc (that's going back to when he didn't even know his ability worked as "vector control", just amplification/reflection and later redirection, he had immense potential but at the same time he didn't really know the huge amounts of applications of his ability).

A lot of his post-headshot "hax" comes from going from using his ability as something as just raw destructive power (amplification) to extremely precise and delicate "vector control" (he's surrounded by various proxies - from potential energy and energy carriers themselves, being able to easily manipulate radiation (he blocks UV radition hence his albino appearance, that's basically messing with force carriers)). Given that atmosphere/air pretty much constantly surrounds him and everything else as well as it being easier to manipulate/calculate (unlike something like quantum manipulation).

u might want to read the accel manga as he shows remote vector control there too, the range it's just limited by his AIM and takes more calculations so it not that applicable normally, and it was perfect for the terrorist attack too as they were wating, so he had all time he wanted

and it's not really amplifications of force, just optimizations, as they even explained in this novel, accel can't create energy from nothing, but he can use other vectors or optimize existing ones or even use the force exerted by the opposing object when pushed (for example in this novel he purposely let the force come back tot him so he could fell how much damage he has done) to boost the one he is using


btw on why accel can tank so much shit is actually pretty simple, we already know he uses subconsciously his vectors to fix his blood circulation and organs, it's not stretch to think that he can lessen the impact of things a bit like a boxer does by moving with the force and "letting it pass through"

 

[Notstn]

Well this turned out to be a huge post so I split it into a few parts about "Puzzlecelerator" (they do make a fun couple don't they?).----
A kind-of-big mistake in his profile regarding "Remote Vector Control".

Also his "Remote Vector Control" part is not entirely correct, while yes he does have that ability and has feats of using that particular ability (it's along the lines of matter/energy manipulation at a distance) in angelic forms, the hostages feat was not "Remote Vector Control". I'll note that Accelerator, especially post headshot is an incredibly skilled Aerokinesis user, a vastly improved and perfected form of his early wind control (In LNs at that point he practically used Aerokinesis as Telekinesis in the hostages part, it's a bit less obvious in the anime, same goes for his (to note, that was before he enraged and wings popped out) weird anime feat of what looked like teleportation (likely being a vacuum corridor/propulsion through it) also being an example of what Aerokinesis is capable of. Though as stated earlier, he does not have Aerokinesis as an Esper ability nor was he ever multi-skill (well his wings were not an Esper ability so that doesn't count).

By definition his vector control is essentially matter and energy manipulation aka - his ability relies on existing proxies through which it can be manifested, early on he mostly generated a small amount of kinetic energy using his own body and then amplified it by thousands doing stuff like shattering ground around him etc (that's going back to when he didn't even know his ability worked as "vector control", just amplification/reflection and later redirection, he had immense potential but at the same time he didn't really know the huge amounts of applications of his ability).

A lot of his post-headshot "hax" comes from going from using his ability as something as just raw destructive power (amplification) to extremely precise and delicate "vector control" (he's surrounded by various proxies - from potential energy and energy carriers themselves, being able to easily manipulate radiation (he blocks UV radition hence his albino appearance, that's basically messing with force carriers)). Given that atmosphere/air pretty much constantly surrounds him and everything else as well as it being easier to manipulate/calculate (unlike something like quantum manipulation).

u might want to read the accel manga as he shows remote vector control there too, the range it's just limited by his AIM and takes more calculations so it not that applicable normally


btw on why accel can tank so much shit is actually pretty simple, we already know he uses subconsciously his vectors to fix his blood circulation it's not stretch to think that he can lessen the impact of things a bit like a boxer does by moving with the force and "letting it pass through"

Please read what I said, he is capable of controlling vectors at a distance, I didn't say he wasn't. He can do a lot of things. It's very very well established how broken his ability is.

There is a difference between what he "can do" and what he usually does. What he usually does is make use of Aerokinesis when he needs to. You seemed to have missed out on the huge part that played into his character development, showing huge restraint when it came to exerting crazy amounts of power, contrast to him at the very beginning of OT.

The one exception where he pretty much opened with white wings and peak of his power (at the time) was intentional, he wanted to get defeated by Touma while still showing off crazy amounts of power, as others were unlikely to go after Touma seeing that.

His story was not about seeking power (well at the start it was, just showing even more of a contrast). If you see it that way then I'm not sure it's really a character you'd like or empathize with.

There are multiple reasons on why he is capable of living through so much, partially because angelic states make him a lot more durable and partially because his ability works on himself and his internal organs too. Angelic state is something he cannot maintain subconsciously, it along with wings seems to dissipate if he's knocked out completely. At first it worked like an enrage with him being unable to even speak Japanese in that state, later he got much better at making use of it.

But that's not even the point. If he's injured he can repair the damage before scarring or internal bleeding or anything alike occurs even internally. I would imagine he's very much aware of his body state/injuries sustained when he engages in fights, most likely having to repair them as he fights. It's something he learned and relies on, especially having left AC and knowing that his reflection can fail at any time against a magician depending on the nature of the spell.

When he went to intercept the Telesmic attack (that was white angelic state), he did not know if he would survive it or not, that was not even the point, he knew he had to stop it because it was the right thing to do, because he wanted to be a hero. He knew he could not control Telesma (yet) and that it would go through his shield.

and it's not really amplifications of force, just optimizations, as they even explained in this novel, accel can't create energy from nothing, but he can use other vectors or optimize existing ones or even use the force exerted by the opposing object when pushed (for example in this novel he purposely let the force come back tot him so he could fell how much damage he has done) to boost the one he is using

Re-read my post about his ability being reliant on proxies to manifest it. That is essentially what that entire part was about.

 

[Malox1696]

well things are pretty inconsistent about his durability (can take sweep can't take a punch+rock from touma) that's why i think either the wings give him some durability or he uses vector control on himself to "move" the damage away so IB would still knock him out as he can't fully redirect the impact on his body


btw lately he has been more liberal with vector control remotely, example: vector slice vs processor suit, vs nephthys and vs the GD

and vector control is not "crazy power" it's actually a lot less flashy and more difficult than controlling the air