Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 6

[Scrlk666777]

Well he can reflect curtana since that's the sword, I'm guessing you mean the actual omnidimensional slicing?

Also he can reflect magic without the clonoth, but can't use magic without it.

 

[Malox1696]

clonoth gives global anti magic, even the weird ones like curtana, vector less curses etc

that's why he can't reflect it until connected , it's in the profile


Clonoth: The previously unamed Tree which Accelerator rewrote and implanted into the Phase. So far he has demonstrated that once a connection is established to this tree through Qliphah (likely instantaneous) it increases his calculation powers and upgrades his reflection capabilities. Giving him now the ability to manipulate unknown energy in the form of invisible vortex-like spears to null Magic and an upgraded field that carries Anti-Magic properties.

and he still can't use magic without recoil that always happen

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox

Only spells etc. He can use magic via manipulating it through vector Manipulation; although we have yet to see him do this.

On another note I was looking at Othinus' profile. Is the 5-B scaling to Ollerus on her 50/50 key?

 

[XDragnoir]

I think the scaling comes from IT.

 

[Accelerate420]

clonoth gives global anti magic, even the weird ones like curtana, vector less curses etc
that's why he can't reflect it until connected , it's in the profile


Clonoth: The previously unamed Tree which Accelerator rewrote and implanted into the Phase. So far he has demonstrated that once a connection is established to this tree through Qliphah (likely instantaneous) it increases his calculation powers and upgrades his reflection capabilities. Giving him now the ability to manipulate unknown energy in the form of invisible vortex-like spears to null Magic and an upgraded field that carries Anti-Magic properties.

and he still can't use magic without recoil that always happen

The summary was written by me, but whatever Accelerator learns and comes into contact with outside of Clonoth should still apply, but the field itself should grant these in general until further notice.

 

[ElixirBlue]

What do people think about for a Touma vs Deku match?

 

[Schnee_One]

Why are you tossing a 9C at a 9A

 

[ElixirBlue]

I didn't think of that. I was just wondering if Touma could negate One for All from strengthening Deku.

 

[Accelerate420]

Dunno, depends on if quirks are considered supernatural or just innate genetic talents. For the same reason Touma cannot negate Saint physiology or 100% neg Personal Realities.

 

[XDragnoir]

Dark Shadow is the only supernatural quirk i remember, most of the others are genetic/scientific.

 

[Malox1696]

well summoning flame or ice is still considered super natural, but i think the permanent body modification quirk don't count for negation as it's literally a changed body, but well all for one can change the body back so it's up to interpretation, one for all instated should be possible to negate as it's literary energy stored and released but not the shock wave created by it

 

[ElixirBlue]

Deku is pretty powerful already, it seems.

 

[XDragnoir]

well summoning flame or ice is still considered super natural, but i think the permanent body modification quirk don't count for negation as it's literally a changed body, but well all for one can change the body back so it's up to interpretation, one for all instated should be possible to negate as it's literary energy stored and released but not the shock wave created by it

Water quirks normally uses the water in the air, so i think ice does the same?

 

[Malox1696]

Esper do the same

 

[XDragnoir]

No, espers use reality warping to do it, quirks do it using naturally produced things.

 

[Inori_Hatsune]

I think water manipulation quirk still be negated. For example, when water quirk user manipulate water then Touma touch it, the water will be lose its supranatural power which control it. In that case, Touma negates supranatural energy that manipulate the water, not water itself.

 

[Malox1696]

No, espers use reality warping to do it, quirks do it using naturally produced things.

oh please explain me how u do it how do u change temperature form range in a normal way

 

[XDragnoir]

I think water manipulation quirk still be negated. For example, when water quirk user manipulate water then Touma touch it, the water will be lose its supranatural power which control it. In that case, Touma negates supranatural energy that manipulate the water, not water itself.

When All Might was talking with Deku about changing the documents about what his powers are, he gave 2 examples of water powers to Deku, one of them was absorb water from the air and then releasing it, IB can't null it.

IDK if the author already explained how Shoto's powers works, but Bakugo uses nitroglycerin that he produces to create his explosions, so i think Shoto uses something similar.

 

[Malox1696]

it's the same , u are using supernatural energy to do it, for example iron sand is something that already exist misaka just controls it , fire esper just heat up matter

 

[XDragnoir]

No, there is no supernatural energy in BNH, and Touma don't null the iron sand, he nulls the eletricity conecting them, Touma was able to null the Synchrotron in the Level Upper Arc, but Bakugo's explosions are completely natural explosion, so Touma can't null them.

 

[Inori_Hatsune]

Agree with malox, best example is misaka iron sand which it negated by IB. Wind manipulation probably another story if you do same as Accel did during sisters arc.

So here my opinion; Touma can negate energy that control a certain element. To cheat out Touma IB with elemental manipulation, you need create natural phenomenon using your supranatural ability

For example rock throw via earth manipulation or make natural tornado via wind manipulation. Fire & lightning manipulation are not effective since they are created & amplified via supranatural power. Water also cant cheat out IB unless you throw huge amount of water that Touma cant deal with.

 

[XDragnoir]

did any of you read/watch BNH? All powers are genetic, everyone is closer to Spider-Man than they are to Dr. Strange.

 

[JBennett]

Magic in Index is nothing but the Life force that has been mutated and yet IB is able to negate any magic spell. I do agree that not all Quirks will be negated, mutation ones such as tenya or tsuyu wouldn't be affected since those are physical attributes. However Emiters such as No. 13 or Eraser Head are not physical atrabutes since it's impossible to physically produce a Black hole or physically supress someone elses Qurik without useing a lot of mass for the former.

IB doesn't actually destroy all Supernatrual abilities but rather destroy things that have abnormal values, things like souls, Life force, Laylines, or "power of the World" are normal where as Magic is the Lifeforce that has it Hormony taken so it can be detroyed.

Now Quriks area grey zone since many quiks are 'natrual' from the begining but some things, like beinga ble to manipulate something from a destance without a direct connection can't be natrual. I do beielive it's base on a case by case evaluation but generally Quirks that are base on haveing a physical abnormalitiy would be cosidered 'normal' while those about manipulated something would be concidered 'abnormal' since it about makeing those valuse abnormal .

 

[JBennett]

NT 02 Chapter 4 part 1

""That's right." Birdway nodded. "And Imagine Breaker negates all kinds of supernatural
powers. And that includes the power circulated by the planet."
"So, his right hand is like a snowplow and that giant fortress is following the path he's
created?"

"It's not that simple," Birdway responded to Accelerator's question with a sardonic grin.
"Imagine Breaker works exceedingly well when it is normalizing abnormal values, but it does not show much power when dealing with something that is uniform from the start.
It only carries out destruction of things that have already had their harmony taken. ...For example, he does not destroy someone's soul when he touches them, and he
does not destroy the planet when he touches it. Yet those things do indeed have
supernatural power flowing through them." "

 

[Inori_Hatsune]

Is quirk is gemstone equivalent in to aru? If yes, there are high chance it will be negated since gemstone is esper power that developed in natural ways.

Also, I think any superpower will be negated by IB evnthough its natural in that world. That because it not meet pure world criteria as normal phenomenon which usually based on our world standart.

 

[XDragnoir]

Todoroki can't control ice/fire, he can only produce them, and like most powers, he uses most probably super chemestry. Gemstone are reality warpers, Quirks are basically "evolution will hit a point every human has unique organs which give them super power". Touma would have the same problem with some of the X-Men (Logan, Cyclope, etc).

 

[Malox1696]

Logan yes Cyclops nope, call it mutation or whatsoever it still not in the rule set and stored inside IB unless he has a thermo nuclear reactor inside his head that does not emit heat and fry his brain

 

[Inori_Hatsune]

Misaka also use electricity from academy city (which is natural electricity) & it still negated. It because misaka electric attack already contaminated with AIM.

Producing fire, ice, etc still considered as supranatural ability. And like malox says, unless cyclops had thermo nuclear reactor inside him it still considered as unnatural ability. Even todoroki still fall same category as misaka electric attack. But I agree that deku punch cant be negated by IB since it same case with kanzaki.

 

[XDragnoir]

Cyclope i think can't be nulled for the same reason the debris of Curtana can't be nulled, they are natural things brought up by supernatural things (Touma can null the slash but not the debris, so he probably can null the portals in Cyclops' eyes, but not the beams). If Todoroki is a biological flamethrower (what he is going by everything else in the manga) Touma can't null him.

 

[JBennett]

so my question then is where does Todoroki's fire and ice come from? if the are natrual things then they would have to come from somewhere, conversly if the ice and fire are being produced then yes it can be nulified since they wouldn't been exsicting before he produced him.

 

[DestinyDude0]

The debris is considered to be natural phenomenon from a higher dimension, so that makes sense. But I feel like Cyclops's kinetic beams has a chance of being affected since they come from an alternate universe. After all, AU's do not exist in the Toaruverse, would that be considered "abnormal"? . Considering IB normalizes abnormal values, wouldn't it be possible the beams are reverted back to the original universe?

I remember Gabriel was mentioned as being "banished" back into Heaven, so nullification isn't the only possible application. It seems like it can also be used as an excorcism tool, as seen with Aleister's flashback, as well as a reconstructive tool, as used by Othinus. It all seems to boil down to whether or not it follows the template of the Pure World.

 

[XDragnoir]

so my question then is where does Todoroki's fire and ice come from? if the are natrual things then they would have to come from somewhere, conversly if the ice and fire are being produced then yes it can be nulified since they wouldn't been exsicting before he produced him.

Can Touma null a freezer or a lighter? Todoroki is both, but in greater scale and biological, does this make sense? No, but not making sense and being supernatural are not the same things.

 

[XDragnoir]

The debris is considered to be natural phenomenon from a higher dimension, so that makes sense. But I feel like Cyclops's kinetic beams has a chance of being affected since they come from an alternate universe. After all, AU's do not exist in the Toaruverse, would that be considered "abnormal"? . Considering IB normalizes abnormal values, wouldn't it be possible the beams are reverted back to the original universe?

I remember Gabriel was mentioned as being "banished" back into Heaven, so nullification isn't the only possible application. It seems like it can also be used as an excorcism tool, as seen with Aleister's flashback, as well as a reconstructive tool, as used by Othinus. It all seems to boil down to whether or not it follows the template of the Pure World.

With verse equalization AUs and Phases are the same i think, but idk, Touma has 2 different showing of how IB works in extra-universal things, so i think we just can't answer this.

 

[DestinyDude0]

Meh, Phases are more akin to metaphysical planes of existences, like Bleach's various afterlives, or Nasu's concept of Textures. They're magical realms that exist within the same universe. AU's would be more like timelines, which would contain their own seperate versions of Phases/Textures/Realms. Or at least, that's how I see it anyways.

 

[Malox1696]

Cyclope i think can't be nulled for the same reason the debris of Curtana can't be nulled, they are natural things brought up by supernatural things (Touma can null the slash but not the debris, so he probably can null the portals in Cyclops' eyes, but not the beams). If Todoroki is a biological flamethrower (what he is going by everything else in the manga) Touma can't null him.

nope if u create a magical fire IB will negate the heat surrounding it too even tho it's just air heated by magical flame, only the ashes can't be negated, so cyclops beam would be negated

ur example of curtana is fallacious, as the debris a byproduct involuntary made by cutting the dimension not the phenom it self , it's reality that have to respond to the magical aftermath of cutting a 4th dimensional object

 

[TFSCell]

On the topic of things having their harmony taken, would imagine breaker be able to null someone like Ainz despite him being natural within his verse?

 

[XDragnoir]

The energy beam is a involutary byproduct of Cyclops opening his eyes, which are portals to another reality, and then the energy just flows through them. But like Destiny Dude said, AUs and Phases are a bit different, but the reality Cyclops uses are in the 616 universe afaik, so maybe it is a Phase?

 

[Malox1696]

The energy beam is a involutary byproduct of Cyclops opening his eyes, which are portals to another reality, and then the energy just flows through them. But like Destiny Dude said, AUs and Phases are a bit different, but the reality Cyclops uses are in the 616 universe afaik, so maybe it is a Phase?

then u answered ur self, touma IB only has set data for original world back up , even if it's natural in another universe or reality IB would still negate it, hell if we didn't do verse equalization every fight would end incon as touma IB would instantly negate the reality which the fight is set or if set in to aru universe it would instakill the opponent by touch

back on quirk , it would negate the creation and control type but maybe not mutation as physical mutation like frog girl (depending on the mutation, for example a man made of fog or some other material would be negated) but then again all for one can take away someone power even mutation and leave them back with a normal body

 

[XDragnoir]

But for some reason the debris aren't nulled because? Touma has a very small time frame to null Curtana, and both Curtana and Cyclops do the same thing, use magic to do matter/energy from other world/dimension/reality/whatever come to our universe.

And if by Creation you are talking about Bakugo, Todoroki, Sero, etc, no he can't, because they are biologically made.

 

[Malox1696]

cause they are 4th d object which already exist reduced to 3d not outer reality or phases energy coming in form a portal

one is actually real IRL too (in math at least) the other is just some fantasy theory about other realities