Ubel vs Boa 2: Now with more Kachon

[MonkeyOfLife]

Link a scan you used for devil fruit abilities with combat applicable law and reality manip

Nullifying and changing the properties of kaidos attack and lighting is reality warping, law manip from the whip fruit, commanding objects to move by themselves based on her orders

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Right and subjective reality manipulation-based attacks like that get resisted and negated via Haki though Bonney's ability (can change the age and appearance of others based on any reality she imagines to be possible for them).

This isn't combat applicable subjective reality it's just age manip

You would have to prove bonney can do this even when from an objective standpoint it isn't possible. For example if someone is expected to die at 30 she should able to make them age to 50 with the reason being "she thinks of that as possible!"

Bonneys profile doesn't even have subjective reality either just age manip

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Nullifying and changing the properties of kaidos attack and lighting is reality warping,

No it's transmutation and limited power null

law manip from the whip fruit, commanding objects to move by themselves based on her orders

Again please look at how we define body puppetry

 

[Kachon123]

This isn't combat applicable subjective reality it's just age manip

You would have to prove bonney can do this even when from an objective standpoint it isn't possible. For example if someone is expected to die at 30 she should able to make them age to 50 with the reason being "she thinks of that as possible!"

"Not combat applicable" Stop speaking on what you don't know. This is becoming a trend.

She can literally age someone to death and return them back


in a combat scenario

Bonneys profile doesn't even have subjective reality either just age manip

Her profile is not updated for Egghead Island.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Again please look at how we define body puppetry

... It isn't, look at the scans... They are moving on their own based on her order/rules

No it's transmutation and limited power null

Based on reality warping

 

[Kachon123]

No it's transmutation and limited power null

Via reality manipulation. It's on his profile. That's like saying Reelseiden is "just" a durability negation slash.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Also I just check lutfys profile he doesn't have law manip nor does his reality manip encompass law manip

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Also I just check lutfys profile he doesn't have law manip nor does his reality manip encompass law manip

Nullifying and changing the properties of kaidos attack and lighting is reality warping, law manip from the whip fruit, commanding objects to move by themselves based on her orders

Luffy fruit = reality warping

whip fruit = law manipulation

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Via reality manipulation. It's on his profile. That's like saying Reelseiden is "just" a durability negation slash.

luffy doesn't use subjective reality in a way that effects his opponents therefore there is no reason to suggests haki resists that since he doesn't have the ability to use it on them in the first place

Also no Luffy awakened his fruit therefore can turn stuff to rubber this isn't reality manip its just transmutation. Don't compare this to reelsedien where ubels attacks are literally adjusted to dura neg you

 

[Kachon123]

luffy doesn't use subjective reality in a way that effects his opponents therefore there is no reason to suggests haki resists that since he doesn't have the ability to use it on them in the first place

Also no Luffy awakened his fruit therefore can turn stuff to rubber this isn't reality manip its just transmutation. Don't compare this to reelsedien where ubels attacks are literally adjusted to dura neg you

Argue with a wall. It's on the profiles.

Regardless, Luffy isn't the only person with reality manipulation. Giolla has it as well.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Luffy fruit = reality warping

Not combat applicable therefore can't be applied to haki

whip fruit = law manipulation

Again it isn't please look at the actual law manipulation page and compare the two. No laws here are being effected

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

luffy doesn't use subjective reality in a way that effects his opponents therefore there is no reason to suggests haki resists that since he doesn't have the ability to use it on them in the first place

He does use it on opponents and people around him

Again it isn't please look at the actual law manipulation page and compare the two. No laws here are being effected

I looked just incase for you, what she's doing is law manipulation

The ability to manipulate "laws" that automatically apply themselves upon reality

her orders for the buildings will do what she says upon reality even if it's impossible and goes against the rules of reality

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Nice a profile where Luffy is tossing around kaido

Where's the combat applicable realty manip?

Argue with a wall. It's on the profiles.

What's on the profiles is that his "reality manip" is breaking the laws of physics in a cartoony fashion. The argument is that how he does this isn't combat applicable and therefore doesn't scale to haki the profile literally shows nothing thing that suggests this?

If you mean to say "W-well the profile lists his transmutation as something from his reality manip" awakened devil fruits just have this ability which is literally seen with doffy and katakiri yet noting on there profiles lists this as reality warping no sir! Why are we assuming it applies to Luffy when the scans the profile actually use don't suggest it does at all??? Was this accepted in a thread? Where?

You can't pull the "it's on the profiles! It's undeniable!" Card unless this was accepted on a CRT otherwise we debate it

Regardless, Luffy isn't the only person with reality manipulation. Giolla has it as well.

This isn't subjective reality either just thought based transmutation in the sense whatever she thinks about is the art you turn into.

Subjective reality warping isn't just thought it's thoughts that directly manifest and change reality is: wish granting, dreams turning into reality, etc

Once again was this accepted in a CRT did real people look at this and say "yeah it fits with the wiki"? Where? Otherwise we debate it too

 

[Kachon123]

Nice a profile where Luffy is tossing around kaido

Where's the combat applicable realty manip?

What's on the profiles is that his "reality manip" is breaking the laws of physics in a cartoony fashion. The argument is that how he does this isn't combat applicable and therefore doesn't scale to haki the profile literally shows nothing thing that suggests this?

If you mean to say "W-well the profile lists his transmutation as something from his reality manip" awakened devil fruits just have this ability which is literally seen with doffy and katakiri yet noting on there profiles lists this as reality warping no sir! Why are we assuming it applies to Luffy when the scans the profile actually use don't suggest it does at all??? Was this accepted in a thread? Where?

You can't pull the "it's on the profiles! It's undeniable!" Card unless this was accepted on a CRT otherwise we debate it

Subjective Reality, Reality Warping & Toon Force (Can turn his imagination into reality, ranging from breaking physics in a cartoon fashion, altering his environment into rubber, and effects such as making his opponent view stars and birds as if it were a cartoon. Kaidou stated that his abilities were like something from a comic strip. Stated to be capable of fighting in anyway he wishes)

Luffy is not a paramecia devil fruit user, he's a Zoan. He is not Katakuri or Doflamingo where his fruit should be able to effect other things. Luffy being able to do that to Kaidou is an extension of his reality manipulation and subjective reality manipulation as he's quite literally fighting in the way that makes sense to him.

This isn't subjective reality either just thought based transmutation in the sense whatever she thinks about is the art you turn into.

Subjective reality warping isn't just thought it's thoughts that directly manifest and change reality is: wish granting, dreams turning into reality, etc

Once again was this accepted in a CRT did real people look at this and say "yeah it fits with the wiki"? Where? Otherwise we debate it too

Yes. It was.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

He does use it on opponents and people around him

Once again they are shown to only be effected by transmutation which isn't stated to be from reality warping it's just an awakened devil fruit ability I used doffy and katakuri as two examples

I looked just incase for you, what she's doing is law manipulation

Ok cool nobody contested this

The ability to manipulate "laws" that automatically apply themselves upon reality

her orders for the buildings will do what she says upon reality even if it's impossible and goes against the rules of reality

- Her "orders" aren't fundamental laws

- Where in the scan does it say that this effects reality?

- Where in the scan does it suggest this goes against reality? Cause what the scan actually says is that through body puppetry they perform different actions from what they were initially going to do and therefore the future changes as a result.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Once again they are shown to only be effected by transmutation which isn't stated to be from reality warping it's just an awakened devil fruit ability I used doffy and katakuri as two examples

read what it says (doffy and katakuri are paramecia devil fruit users, luffy isn't)

- Her "orders" aren't fundamental laws

- Where in the scan does it say that this effects reality?

- Where in the scan does it suggest this goes against reality? Cause what the scan actually says is that through body puppetry they perform different actions from what they were initially going to do and therefore the future changes as a result.

Buildings and objects don't move by themselves or from orders... Her fruit ability manipulated that law/fact of reality and made it possible by manipulating and changing that fact/rule

Has nothing to do with body puppetry

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Luffy is not a paramecia devil fruit user, he's a Zoan. He is not Katakuri or Doflamingo where his fruit should be able to effect other things. Luffy being able to do that to Kaidou is an extension of his reality manipulation and subjective reality manipulation as he's quite literally fighting in the way that makes sense to him.

Now where exactly in the scan does it say he applies this to physical abilities? The only thing this scan says is that he can turn his imagination into reality and this is what he believes is the pinnacle of what he can do.

Once again my argument is that the "subjective reality isn't being used to perform attacks. Things like transmutation are separate from this and are never stated to be from this"

Also the difference between the 3 holds no barring

Parametia fruits are listed as ranging from body alteration, environmental alterations, and substance generation the ONLY thing that changes her in luffys case is that he's both body alteration and environmental alterations. In your own argument you literally say "He is not Katakuri or Doflamingo where his fruit should be able to effect other things." then after that say he can effect kaido what are we doing? How does this prove it comes from reality manip

Yes. It was.

Where's the CRT? That's what I'm asking

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Once again my argument is that the "subjective reality isn't being used to perform attacks. Things like transmutation are separate from this and are never stated to be from this"

is making people's eyes pop out of their heads, transmutation? No it's reality warping and affects people

 

[Delusionaltx2]

read what it says (doffy and katakuri are paramecia devil fruit users, luffy isn't)

Luffys fruit is a mythical zoan that literally acts exactly like a paramecia therefore paramecia make the most sense to compare him to

Buildings and objects don't move by themselves or from orders... Her fruit ability manipulated that law/fact of reality and made it possible by manipulating and changing that fact/rule

Has nothing to do with body puppetry

THIS LITERALLY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH BODY PUPPETRY

The literal first sentence is "Body puppetry is the ability to control the body or bodies of others." The body of said buildings would be the physical material they are made out of which is literally what's being effected here in your own scan

 

[Delusionaltx2]

is making people's eyes pop out of their heads, transmutation? No it's reality warping and affects people

This isn't combat applicable as it doesn't do any damage to kaido.

Not only that but this is more of an anti feat since kaido isn't even resisting this with haki he's openly getting effected by it despite the whole "Haki trumps all therefore it resists all devil fruit abilities" argument

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Luffys fruit is a mythical zoan that literally acts exactly like a paramecia therefore paramecia make the most sense to compare him to

It doesn't act like a paramecia, it acts like a zoan... Since its a zoan devil fruit

THIS LITERALLY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH BODY PUPPETRY

The literal first sentence is "Body puppetry is the ability to control the body or bodies of others." The body of said buildings would be the physical material they are made out of which is literally what's being effected here in your own scan

She isn't controlling the buildings herself, she's telling them what they should do and they themselves do it, you are wrong and desperate

This isn't combat applicable as it doesn't do any damage to kaido.

Not only that but this is more of an anti feat since kaido isn't even resisting this with haki he's openly getting effected by it despite the whole "Haki trumps all therefore it resists all devil fruit abilities" argument

Luffy himself has haki, making it affect kaido... Any devil fruit ability will work on someone if ones haki has overpowered someone else's haki

It is combat applicable, hence it's affecting his opponents, both by controlling them and what's happening to them against their will, luffy forcefully made kizaru see stars when getting hit by his gear 5 haki attack

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It doesn't act like a paramecia, it acts like a zoan... Since its a zoan devil fruit

Zoan is animal based...rubber and minor toon force is not animal based

She isn't controlling the buildings herself, she's telling them what they should do and they themselves do it, you are wrong and desperate

Ah yes, telling something with no soul or sentience to physically do something and said thing is forcefully inclined to do something when it normally wouldn't do anything at all isn't body puppetry and makes me "wrong and desperate"...

Luffy himself has haki, making it affect kaido... Any devil fruit ability will work on someone if ones haki has overpowered someone else's haki

And their haki (literally what this arc focuses on) is depicted as even..in fact kaido has arguably better haki since this is literally implied in his "haki trumphs all speech" as the reason he isn't completely overwelmed

It is combat applicable, hence it's affecting his opponents,

That's not how it works on this site and I think we both know that...

Combat applicability is used to establish an ability working in combat not the other way around

both by controlling them and what's happening to them against their will, luffy forcefully made kizaru see stars when getting hit by his gear 5 haki attack

We call this an effect from getting hit REALLY hard do you know where the metaphor "seeing stars" comes from?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

And their haki (literally what this arc focuses on) is depicted as even..in fact kaido has arguably better haki since this is literally implied in his "haki trumphs all speech" as the reason he isn't completely overwelmed

Haki potency varies on how much of it you use, hence using alot of it makes it harder and stronger, become hardening... Read Intermediate Stage on the haki page

Boundman haki (Using haki to it's utmost limit) > Katakuri haki > luffy haki

Ah yes, telling something with no soul or sentience to physically do something and said thing is forcefully inclined to do something when it normally wouldn't do anything at all isn't body puppetry and makes me "wrong and desperate"...

Yes

That's not how it works on this site and I think we both know that...

Combat applicability is used to establish an ability working in combat not the other way around

And it did

We call this an effect from getting hit REALLY hard do you know where the metaphor "seeing stars" comes from?

Luffy made it come and materialize into reality based on hitting and affecting kizaru

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Haki potency varies on how much of it you use, hence using alot of it makes it harder and stronger, become hardening... Read Intermediate Stage on the haki page

Boundman haki (Using haki to it's utmost limit) > Katakuri haki > luffy haki

Kaido is also using haki in the same fight in fact Luffy got knocked out several times in this arc and stopped fighting as a result while kaido was fighting literally everyone else with no downtime so if anything he's been using more and therefore stronger haki than luffy

Yes

No, that's very flawed logic on your part enough said

And it did

No it didn't, that's the problem

Luffy made it come and materialize into reality based on hitting and affecting kizaru

So did anyone else see the stars? Did the stars do anything to effect kizarus body?

With the way this thread has been moving I can already guess a probably not here

 

[Arkansalter2]

7 pages of a whole bunch of nothing.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

7 pages of a whole bunch of nothing.

Tbh I'd rather assume this ends in an incon than assume this ends with a bunch of anti feats only for boa to somehow win

The boa agenda is too strong though it seems (grace is probably over at this point)

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

So did anyone else see the stars?

It's states that the stars appear around the characters that are hit

Maybe makes them confused or distracted idk still combat applicable

Kaido is also using haki in the same fight in fact Luffy got knocked out several times in this arc and stopped fighting as a result while kaido was fighting literally everyone else with no downtime so if anything he's been using more and therefore stronger haki than luffy

I guess you completely ignored where I said and showed haki potences varying depending on their usage amounts. The more haki you use... The more you will block and resist the abilities of haki users

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It's states that the stars appear around the characters that are hit

Yeah, we already know that, I'm asking what suggests this isn't limited to the perspective of the character that was hit

Maybe makes them confused or distracted idk still combat applicable

So you have no idea what these even do or if they do anything at all yet your saying it's combat applicable

I guess you completely ignored where I said and showed haki potences varying depending on their usage amounts. The more haki you use... The more you will block and resist the abilities of haki users

Yeah...which means by your own admission since kaido was fighting longer, he was using more haki therefore his haki is bare minimum even if not straight up stronger

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah, we already know that, I'm asking what suggests this isn't limited to the perspective of the character that was hit

You're the one who'd have to prove that is limited to the perspective of the character hit. Though yes. Luffy can also conjure goggles, paintbrushes, buckets, baseball hats, and horns out of nowhere.

So you have no idea what these even do or if they do anything at all yet your saying it's combat applicable

He's saying that it dazes them.

 

[Kachon123]

Grace has ended.

 

[JJSliderman]

Late but iirc the Salome problem is twofold, it also wraps part of itself behind Hancock.
So Sorganeil just wouldn’t be able to affect either right?

 

[Kachon123]

Late but iirc the Salome problem is twofold, it also wraps part of itself behind Hancock.
So Sorganeil just wouldn’t be able to affect either right?

Yup

 

[Delusionaltx2]

You're the one who'd have to prove that is limited to the perspective of the character hit.

No because this entails the negative claim that it does not exist as an objective ability

Though yes. Luffy can also conjure goggles, paintbrushes, buckets, baseball hats, and horns out of nowhere.

All non combat applicable, non of these things can be used to harm haki users

He's saying that it dazes them.

And I'm saying they would be from being hit REALLY hard which is why I mentioned the term "seeing stars"

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No because this entails the negative claim that it does not exist as an objective ability

All non combat applicable, non of these things can be used to harm haki users

This is combat applicable

 

[Delusionaltx2]

How does this even prove it's combat applicable?

This is combat applicable

This is transmutation which we already pointed out as a separate ability tied to awakened devil fruit users (turning stuff into their respective element/ability) in luffys case it's rubber.

You're just going back in circles

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Late but iirc the Salome problem is twofold, it also wraps part of itself behind Hancock.
So Sorganeil just wouldn’t be able to affect either right?

No, salome wraps itself around boas back it doesn't block anyone from seeing boas front. The argument is that salome would be ordered by boa in the event she couldn't move to fight ubel.

Problem is that salome not only gets dura negged but is also skill stomped so badly ubel could literally just kill him with enhanced senses and perepheral vision.

The counter argument suggests the idea that since salome is haki tipped she would resist ubels law/subjective reality based dura neg HOWEVER haki doesn't resist law manipulation/subjective reality which is where ubels dura neg comes from.

Currently people are trying to prove devil fruit abilities exist that encompass law manip and subjective reality and that because of that haki being listed as resisting devil fruit abilities would encompass this however nobody provided a long lasting point suggesting any of them actually have combat applicable law manip/subjective reality which ties into now.

This basically doesn't matter anymore tho because people FRA trained this thread in like a day so you can just assume all 3 of us are yapping

 

[Kachon123]

No, salome wraps itself around boas back it doesn't block anyone from seeing boas front. The argument is that salome would be ordered by boa in the event she couldn't move to fight ubel.

Salome covers her entire lower body. Ubel needs to see everything including the hair.

Problem is that salome not only gets dura negged but is also skill stomped so badly ubel could literally just kill him with enhanced senses and perepheral vision.

...? What? Surume is Hancock's weapon which would be coated in Haki due to her Kenbunshoku precog. If Ubel starts with Sorganeil (which wouldn't work due to Salome covering part of Hancock's body and as a result obscuring part of her own as well), that means that she'd get insta-petrified the second she tries to go for her second option.

The counter argument suggests the idea that since salome is haki tipped she would resist ubels law/subjective reality based dura neg HOWEVER haki doesn't resist law manipulation/subjective reality which is where ubels dura neg comes from.

Currently people are trying to prove devil fruit abilities exist that encompass law manip and subjective reality and that because of that haki being listed as resisting devil fruit abilities would encompass this however nobody provided a long lasting point suggesting any of them actually have combat applicable law manip/subjective reality which ties into now.

Several people have proven this to you and yet you haven't given a single compelling argument or reason.


This match has been added.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

This is transmutation which we already pointed out as a separate ability tied to awakened devil fruit users (turning stuff into their respective element/ability) in luffys case it's rubber.

You're just going back in circles

awakened zoan devil fruit users doesn't do that, see with Lucci awakening

|Awakening Ability
When an ability awakens, the superhuman type changes not only themselves but also the environment around them. If they are animal-types, they gain extraordinary toughness and resilience. Although the awakening of animal-types is risky because their personalities may be taken over, a significant increase in strength is assured.

you're just wrong, going against facts... You do not have reality or law manipulation, too bad. Even if you did, I would negate it with my haki

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Salome covers her entire lower body. Ubel needs to see everything including the hair.

No, you can still see everything down to her shoes

...? What? Surume is Hancock's weapon which would be coated in Haki due to her Kenbunshoku precog.

Hancock again CANT MOVE she can't cost her in anything

Also would like to add that this ties into the whole haki being sealed srgument

If Ubel starts with Sorganeil (which wouldn't work due to Salome covering part of Hancock's body and as a result obscuring part of her own as well),

Profile literally says she does and also no salome wouldn't be obscuring anything

that means that she'd get insta-petrified the second she tries to go for her second option.

No because boa would get her mero mero abilities and haki sealed under this scenerio

Several people have proven this to you and yet you haven't given a single compelling argument or reason.

First of most of the "several people" in question didn't actually argue they just said FRA for your reasons so it's just you

Second of all people legit weren't tracking the argument at all, a guy literally thought I said sorganeil would seal willpower itself when I said sorganeil would seal the ability to use haki preventing the manipulation of willpower

This match has been added.

Which is why I said we're both yapping at this point

 

[Delusionaltx2]

awakened zoan devil fruit users doesn't do that, see with Lucci awakening

But Luffy is a mythical zoan which is treated as something special in oppose to a normal zoan and awakened zoan.

you're just wrong, going against facts... You do not have reality or law manipulation, too bad. Even if you did, I would negate it with my haki

The facts are that luffys devil fruit act most in line with a paramecia since next to nothing about his fruit meets the animal like prerequisites implied by being a zoan he's literally just rubber which is objectively not an animal