Why doesn't Superman have immeasurable speed?

[MilesTheMorales1]

Firstly, I would like to say that the blog post calculating his FTL speed is well executed. LordXcano did a great job calculating what is on the screen, there is no downplaying this.

However, while it captures what's being shown on the screen(him flying around the earth), it doesn't account for the context of what's actually happening; Superman (Christopher Reeve) turned back time with movement alone. The "time" used on the calculation is only what's relative to us, the viewer, and not what's occurring in the scene, as time is moving backward. Supes has time travel on his profile, but it's pretty clear that it's due to fast movement, not a specific power that only activates once he flies around the earth a number of times.

If we can agree that Superman had achieved time travel by movement alone, we should be able to establish immeasurable speed on his profile. Since the speed formula is S = D/T, and time is undefined in this instance, it's impossible to give an accurate measurement of how fast he was going.

I don't see a valid argument as to why not to give him immeasurable speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Him having straight up Immeasurable speed would be wrong. But having something like "X, immeasurable with time travel" works for me. That or just removing the rating, note it in time travel power, and replace it with something else.

If the second option then Donner would be Rel or Rel+ amd Reeves would be some form of Rel for flying to the moon against Nuclear Man.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Qawsedf234. "FTL, Immeasurable by flying through time" should be fine.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's a big issue Ant. The FTL feat is the time travel feat, which is why @MilesTheMorales1 made the thread. It can be FTL or Immeasurable, not both.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Also agreed, I really like this compromise. Don't know why I thought this was an either-or thing tbh.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'm good with it just being Time Travel honestly

Rel seems fine

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think someone calculated he had to fly at Relativistic+ speeds only to turn the Earth like that. I think it's kind of some dumb logic by fiction writers that you can somehow reverse time by physically reversing the Earth. Tbh that scene is kinda confusing

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that giving him time travel should be enough then.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also I would like to add that according to special relativity speed of light would basically be infinity, so theoretically FTL should be enough. Accepting this would also mean that we have to make Superman High 3-A too, which does not fit his supposed power levels. I suggest we would have to chalk it off as writers don't know physics and just list it as time travel.

 

[Antvasima]

Spino makes sense to me.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, fiction typically ignores kinetic energy laws. Him being FTL isn't the issue, its him being FTL from a time travel feat that's the issue.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

FTL is enough to time travel theoretically, according to relativity.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

FTL is enough to time travel theoretically.

In fictional universes where this is the case, I feel like those who achieve time travel like this should get immeasurable speed still.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

That's a big issue Ant. The FTL feat is the time travel feat, which is why @MilesTheMorales1 made the thread. It can be FTL or Immeasurable, not both.

Tbf, Flash is considered Massively FTL+, and he still has immeasurable speeds for traveling through time despite writers commonly saying it's because Flash goes FTL.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

In fictional universes where this is the case, I feel like those who achieve time travel like this should get immeasurable speed still.

Yeah no, DontTalkDT already rejected using an outdated model physics over relativity just because writers think so. We're a indexing site indexing stuff based on real life physics.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Tbf, Flash is considered Massively FTL+, and he still has immeasurable speeds for traveling through time despite writers commonly saying it's because Flash goes FTL.

We shouldn't rate people as immeasurable just for travelling through time imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask DontTalkDT to comment here?

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Yeah no, DontTalkDT already rejected using an outdated model physics over relativity just because writers think so. We're a indexing site indexing stuff based on real life physics.

That's not what I'm saying. The fact of the matter is that Superman moved fast enough to travel backwards in time. It shouldn't matter what the writers say is the cap because the feat is still there.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

We shouldn't rate people as immeasurable just for travelling through time imo.

It takes movement alone to get this rating, and that's what supes did no matter how you look at it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm fine with just giving him a time travelling power and saying his normal speed is Sub-Rel+ or something for flying from the Moon to the Earth in five-ish seconds.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think the argument that DontTalkDT used to debunk using KE for FTL speeds apply here as well. According to real life physics, speed of light is already infinity. We can't just use wrong, outdated physics for the sake of simplicity. We might as well use pseudoscience by ancient civilisations.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

I'm fine with just giving him a time travelling power and saying his normal speed is Sub-Rel+ or something for flying from the Moon to the Earth in five-ish seconds.

But the instances where he uses time travel is when he's moving very fast. It wouldn't be right to just label this as a power when it's clearly his movement accomplishing this.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

It takes movement alone to get this rating, and that's what supes did no matter how you look at it.

You're using an outdated model of physics. According to relativity, speed of light is infinity. You can time travel if you break SoL theoretically according to special relativity.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I'm fine with just giving him a time travelling power and saying his normal speed is Sub-Rel+ or something for flying from the Moon to the Earth in five-ish seconds.

I disagree with that. Superman was calculated to be flying at FTL speeds, which is consistent with the IRL speed required to theoretically be infinity and time travel.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

It takes movement alone to get this rating, and that's what supes did no matter how you look at it.

You're using an outdated model of physics. According to relativity, speed of light is infinity. You can time travel if you break SoL theoretically according to special relativity.
You've lost me. Are you arguing that he doesn't have immeasurable speed because the way he achieved it is not possible in our universe with our laws of physics?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So you're saying that since he's FTL and can time travel its usable? If so then okay.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

@MilesTheMorales1 Is it stated that special relativity does not apply in the Superman movies? Because if not the whole point of our wiki is to use IRL physics from our universe to rate characters. Same reason we don't use FTL KE.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

@MilesTheMorales1 Is it stated that special relativity does not apply in the Superman movies? Because if not the whole point of our wiki is to use IRL physics from our universe to rate characters. Same reason we don't use FTL KE.

We can use IRL physics to calculate and scale many things in fiction, but in instances where immeasurable speed is involved, you literally can't. He moved beyond linear time. In this specific instance it does not matter how it was depicted in the film, or fits with real life physics because you can't measure speed when time is undefined.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

According to special relativity, you can actually go back in time if you break SoL, because SoL requires infinity energy to reach.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

According to special relativity, you can actually go back in time if you break SoL, because SoL requires infinity energy to reach.

If that's the case, if someone within those parameters broke SoL and ended up moving beyond linear time, they get immeasurable speed. In a VS battle, we wouldn't take this away (given speed is unequalized) if time & speed works differently in the opponent's verse, they would still have it because they're shown to have gone backwards in time.

Minor edits for clarity. My point here is that special relativity doesn't change anything, because the fact of what Superman did stays the same. I'm tired of having to drone about how superman moved fast enough to go backwards in time, and that no amount of physics, irl, outdated, or otherwise changes this.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

It's kind of ridiculous not to give him immeasurable speed at this point. It doesn't matter exactly how fast he went or the rea-life parameters for executing it because everyone knows what he did with his speed, it's undebateable.

We should put "FTL, immeasurable(traveled back in time with speed alone)," to honor the original calc, or something else that I haven't considered yet, but either way this is an immeasurable speed feat.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan.

 

[Planck69]

I also agree with Spino

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

I think the argument that DontTalkDT used to debunk using KE for FTL speeds apply here as well. According to real life physics, speed of light is already infinity. We can't just use wrong, outdated physics for the sake of simplicity. We might as well use pseudoscience by ancient civilisations.

After finally reading that thread, I see that you've both straw manned me and misrepresented DontTalk's argument, as it has little to do with dismantling my argument.

1. That post vouched for KE = 1/2mV2 to be used across the wiki. DontTalk's arguments were against the notion that this outdated formula is used sitewide. His arguments are irrelevant in this discussion. We're debating the means of time travel by Supes, not how fast you have to be for it to be possible to go back in time.

2. I've stated it before, I'll rephrase it. No form of real-world physics applies to the feat Superman pulled off, because it's literally an immeasurable feat. You can't measure speed when time is undefined.

3. DontTalk made multiple points in that thread that I myself agree with, and do not contradict my points whatsoever.

"And if it doesn't apply we don't use anything more than basic distance over time considerations, which relativity doesn't really change."[/URL]

There is no applicable physics formula that changes the fact that the Kryptonian went fast enough to go backwards in time. As I'm fairly certain everyone can agree on, superman's physics are broken. I'm not saying it's neccesary to apply Superman physics (or KE) to other verses, quite the opposite. I'm saying his feat qualifies for immeasurable speed, which can and should be considered in VS battles.

If a verse doesn't follow physics it's not like it would necessarily follow a special kind of outdated physics either. We may as well invent a new physics for each verse to explain the countless times virtually every fiction breaks actual physics.

So yeah, I am firmly against using wrong physics.

I also firmly agree against this. Wrong physics used for calcs sitewide is a bad idea. That's why I'm not, whatsoever, advocating for KE to be used anywhere on this wiki. You don't have to agree with a writer's broken physics to see exactly what they intend on conveying to the audience.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

Is somebody willing to ask DontTalkDT to comment here?

I've asked him.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. As I said originally, just make him Immeasurable with time travel or remove the speed rating and mention it under the ability.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Damn it Fandom keeps eating my posts. Anyway, I am aware DontTalkDT's arguments do not fully apply and I am in no way trying to straw man you that you support KE or something. I am merely saying that according to special relativity, you only have to travel faster than light to travel back in time. Hence, we shouldn't just slap an Immeasurable rating for physically time travelling when you can do that by breaking light speed in the real world.

 

[MilesTheMorales1]

I am aware DontTalkDT's arguments do not fully apply and I am in no way trying to straw man you that you support KE or something.

Thank you.

I am merely saying that according to special relativity, you only have to travel faster than light to travel back in time. Hence, we shouldn't just slap an Immeasurable rating for physically time travelling when you can do that by breaking light speed in the real world.

Just so we're clear 100%, your problem with the immeasurable rating has to do with the concept of physical time travel because of how special relativity works in real life?

 

[Antvasima]

"FTL, Immeasurable by flying through time" should be fine.

So should we use this after all then?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

My opinion hasn't changed on this, we shouldn't just make someone Immeasurable for running back in time. Although I would like to hear DontTalkDT's thoughts on this. This could affect other time travelling feats as well.