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Okay, I am very sorry for being really slow to the uptake also it never occured to me that they were the same mirrors so, I'm okay with the changes.
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My Little Pony: We Shouldn't Be Scaling to the Elements of Harmony
- Thread starter Lightbuster30
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- 6,590
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- Thread starter
- #42
It's no big deal.
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Well, the problem is that we never tend to scale statistics from the types of feats that AKM described for other verses, as they are considered unquantifiable and unreliable, and cannot make an exception here just because I personally like the verse, or there are too few staff members interested in it.
I know that you tend to be relentlessly argumentative when it comes to My Little Pony upgrades Lightbuster, but this goes against our usual standards of reliability.
You should just apply the revisions that have been accepted, and handle that some of them have not.
@Matthew_Schroeder
I would greatly appreciate your help here. You tend to have a critical eye for these types of situations.
I know that you tend to be relentlessly argumentative when it comes to My Little Pony upgrades Lightbuster, but this goes against our usual standards of reliability.
You should just apply the revisions that have been accepted, and handle that some of them have not.
@Matthew_Schroeder
I would greatly appreciate your help here. You tend to have a critical eye for these types of situations.
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So what you're saying is that when these portals are overused, the link weakens and that causes dimensional instability which ultimately results in universes getting merged? Is that correct?
ÆONS
He/Him- 1,486
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Personally, I think Light makes a good point. There'd be no way for the mirror to have the power it does if it weren't for Starswirl possessing Low Multiversal degrees of energy and power. It would not make sense for him to be lower than 2-C since he'd not have enough power to give to the mirror portal that would cause it to merge together two universes. I'm willing to concede Starwsirl to being "Possibly 2-C" though.
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I share Amelia's view.
ÆONS
He/Him- 1,486
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Just to make things simple for everyone, this is basically what Light is trying to say: The power and energy of the mirror portal are completely dependent on Starswirl's own energy and power.
- For instance, if Starswirl possesses infinite energy and power, and is clearly capable of High 3-A feats such as destroying an infinitely sized 3-D space, then the mirror portal is, in and of itself, also High 3-A.
- The inverse is also true assuming the mirror portal shattering would destroy an entire timeline, Low 2-C feat, or cause two whole universes to fuse together, 2-C feat, which is what is happening.
For the latter point, it would make no sense for the mirror portal alone to be 2-C and Starswirl himself to be High 3-A or even Low 2-C because he would not have the power and energy to fuel the mirror portal for it to be able to accomplish such feats in the first place. Thus, by logic, Stawrswirl must also be 2-C in terms of stamina, if not in raw AP since he was able to create, enchant, and feed the portal energy.
EDIT: The first outlined point is not true, but the second point is. Please disregard that.
- For instance, if Starswirl possesses infinite energy and power, and is clearly capable of High 3-A feats such as destroying an infinitely sized 3-D space, then the mirror portal is, in and of itself, also High 3-A.
- The inverse is also true assuming the mirror portal shattering would destroy an entire timeline, Low 2-C feat, or cause two whole universes to fuse together, 2-C feat, which is what is happening.
For the latter point, it would make no sense for the mirror portal alone to be 2-C and Starswirl himself to be High 3-A or even Low 2-C because he would not have the power and energy to fuel the mirror portal for it to be able to accomplish such feats in the first place. Thus, by logic, Stawrswirl must also be 2-C in terms of stamina, if not in raw AP since he was able to create, enchant, and feed the portal energy.
EDIT: The first outlined point is not true, but the second point is. Please disregard that.
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- 6,590
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- Thread starter
- #48
Since the link is linking two parts of two Universes, it initially starts out with the two objects. In this case a mirror and a statue through which can be traveled. Once it becomes unstable the link loses control of itself and starts to link the Universes themselves. In other words: It begins breaking down dimensional walls keeping them separate.
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Actually no. In this instance, he is just using his magic to link the universes and the mirrors to work as portals. That means nothing in terms of the durability of the mirror.
For this point, the mirror portal shattering causes the link to weaken from what Light said earlier. Which means the universes are merging on their own due to instability caused by the weakening link. That doesn't mean the link or the energy of the link is what's actively causing those universes to merge. It means exactly the opposite, otherwise the energy of the link would have merged the universes long ago.
Is it stated anywhere that the energy of this link is actively merging the universes? Because without it, there is no way weakening of a link that results in two universes merging together can be scaled back to the AP.
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I feel like you guys are taking the feat at face value and ignoring the greater context of why it's being discussed. The mirror isn't like a device or artifact that does this via technobabble or unexplained magic, the magical spell that Star Swirl used is what's destroying the two universes, and he created the mirror with it. It's his post-humorous power that's doing it, the mirror is just the proxy that's doing it.
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Can you provide citation for this? Because that is not what it looks like according to what Light has been saying throughout the thread.
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- #52
I've repeated myself over and over again that we aren't scaling them to the mirror's durability. What we're trying to do is scale him to powering the portal and the link it creates.
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- #54
I do not recall ÆONS saying this in his comment.
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- #55
It means the link is losing control of itself due to instability and forcibly connecting two entire universes instead of two objects within them. The link is clearly the cause of the near-fusion.
It's exactly how the spell is described to work: By linking two objects across dimensions to form a portal between them. When the link became unstable and lost control, it began doing that to the Universes in their entirety instead of the objects it was initially linked with.
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I'm gonna need citation for this. Can you post the relevant scan please? Because in the entire thread you were saying that the mirror breaking caused the link to weaken. Now you're saying that the link became unstable and forcibly merged two universes.
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- #57
Give me a minute or two to dig it up
I do not remember saying this. I said that the link became weakened and unstable as Celestia and Star Swirl continued to use it. After overusing the portal, the link became unstable and started connecting the Universes further and further, with each use of the portal further destabilizing the link and in turn making the linking worse. Meanwhile, breaking the mirror completely caused it to begin completely and totally merging the Universes into one.
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- Thread starter
- #59
Just give me a moment or more to find the scan he asked for. My mind is focused on dozens of other things besides this thread.
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I meant evidence for that there was not just a destabilising chain reaction effect merging the universes, but rather magical energy infused into the mirrors by Starswirl that actively forced the universes to merge into one whole.
Still, I am not sure if physically merging two universes, rather than retroactively mix their entire timelines as well, really qualifies for 2-C in the first place, or if it is just a 3-A or High 3-A feat.
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- #63
That was in response to AKM sama asking me to provide citation for the spell working the way I said it did.
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- #66
I thought that's what you were asking for. Ok, then, which part specifically did you want me to confirm since I don't entirely know?
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This part specifically.
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- Thread starter
- #69
Forcibly connecting the Universes? If that's what you're asking, then I posted a link to the Universes becoming connected with each other in my 5th comment.
I cannot respond to everything AKM sama and you have to say at once, and I would much rather respond to AKM sama's concerns first before I address the rest. Multitasking is not my strong suit, particularly when debating with multiple people.
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This was the scan in the 5th comment. It only tells us that overuse of the mirror was causing the universes to be connected together. It doesn't tell us whether it was because of the link being weakened due to overuse, or because of Star Swirl's link forcibly connecting those two universes.
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- #73
I don't believe it was explicitly said to be. There wasn't too much mentioned other than using the mirror over and over caused the linking of the Universes. So in light of that, we; that is to say the Discord group I'm in, reached the conclusion that the link becoming unstable was the cause of the link and near merging based on the information we saw in Reflections (The name of the arc in which the Universes almost fuse), Legends of Magic, and the Equestria Girls series. We took what we saw and reached a logical conclusion that was both certain and made the most sense based on the information provided.
Like I mentioned earlier in my op: We know for a fact that the mirror is the cause of the problem because it's destruction is what accelerated the merging process to the point where the Universes were on the verge of collapsing into each other. The Universes weren't just connected with each other anymore, the mirrors destruction started merging them to the point they were tearing apart at the seams, with portals between the Universe forming and even a visual of the universes merging.
So from this: If the mirror was the problem then the link it contains is the problem by proxy. After all, the mirror is an object enchanted with magic to function as a portal. So if there's a problem with the mirror, there a problem with the link. The link is after all, what maintains the portal/connections to the other Universe.
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After reading the arguments, I suppose Lightbuster makes sense, it is indeed Starswirl's own magic performing the feat so I'm fine with possibly 2-C.
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So yeah, if nothing of that sort is mentioned, that conclusion is purely headcanon. If the only thing mentioned as the reason for universes getting merged is the overuse of mirror, I'd argue it is far more logical to just chalk it up to dimensional instability caused by it, and it can't be scaled back to whatever power was used in creating the link, hence unquantifiable. And that would be a far safer conclusion too. Saying the link forcibly and actively used its energy to merge the universe, in the given context, has no basis whatsoever and is clearly the absolute highest interpretation/assumption you can make.
ÆONS
He/Him- 1,486
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Yeah, I'm in the same boat.
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- Thread starter
- #77
I'm honestly going to have to get back to this tomorrow. It's too late where I'm at to bother with a proper argument right now. I'll do it tomorrow when I can better think and not tired.
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AKM:
It's not headcanon, it's how magic works in the series. The one time magic is shown to work the way you're describing it was when it was specified to be unique magic to an entirely different race of equines (Zebra). All magic stuff is done through the users own power, ergo, the dimension being merged is done by Starswirls power, that's how it's always been portrayed with no real inconsistencies that I'm aware of that wasn't, again, done by other races entirely. Anything else is head-canon on your part because you don't understand how pony magic in MLP works.
No offense to anyone, but this is why summoning someone who doesn't know squat about the verse is a very bad thing, it either causes blind agreements, or causes repetitive arguments like this because we have to explain every little aspect of the lore over and over again. Everyone here who is aware of the verse and its mechanics are okay with the changes, but the one person who isn't well-versed in it, isn't. Why is their opinion suddenly worth more then everyone else's?
It's not headcanon, it's how magic works in the series. The one time magic is shown to work the way you're describing it was when it was specified to be unique magic to an entirely different race of equines (Zebra). All magic stuff is done through the users own power, ergo, the dimension being merged is done by Starswirls power, that's how it's always been portrayed with no real inconsistencies that I'm aware of that wasn't, again, done by other races entirely. Anything else is head-canon on your part because you don't understand how pony magic in MLP works.
No offense to anyone, but this is why summoning someone who doesn't know squat about the verse is a very bad thing, it either causes blind agreements, or causes repetitive arguments like this because we have to explain every little aspect of the lore over and over again. Everyone here who is aware of the verse and its mechanics are okay with the changes, but the one person who isn't well-versed in it, isn't. Why is their opinion suddenly worth more then everyone else's?
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Sure. And in this case, that is linking the two universes. I never argued against it.
If that's the case, it should be painfully easy to just show the scan where it states what you're saying. Show me a scan where it says the universes are being merged directly because of Star Swirl's magical power. It's not a big ask, seriously. You're supposed to be a knowledgeable member and I am asking for the scan since forever. Yet all you can come up with is your own interpretation of how it is supposed to work without showing anything to back it up.
Uhh no reason to throw shade around. You're accusing me of blindly agreeing with something when I never agreed to anything in this thread. And I'd argue that having a neutral user who doesn't know much about the verse can be a good thing because that user might ask the relevant questions and for relevant scans to cover all bases so that there is no confusion left for the future. It's obviously better than having only supporters of the verse in a thread who will just FRA to the absolute highest assumptions to push for exaggerated ratings. And that is one of the practices that has been turning the wiki full of wonky ratings when it comes to such verses. And it's not me saying that about this thread specifically, just saying in general.
Also, it's not about opinion. Again, it's about proof. I don't have an opinion on this. All I'm asking is for proof that confirms what is being said in this thread.
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