My Little Pony: We Shouldn't Be Scaling to the Elements of Harmony

[Lightbuster30]

Ok, I think everyone from the past couple of comments needs to cool down here. The thread won't get anywhere with people getting upset with each other.

@AKM sama Ok, so if I have your stance right; based on what I see you say, then I think you agree that the mirror was the cause but not the link it uses caused the problem? I'm asking because I'm not 100% certain what your stance on the mirror being the cause is. So I just need to confirm your stance on this matter before I address anything else or I risk making the wrong type of argument and wasting my time.

 

[AKM sama]

Like I said earlier from what I gathered from your statements and the scans, the overuse of the mirrors is what initiated the process of universes getting connected and when it broke, the universes started merging. This can be easily chalked up to dimensional instability caused by the overuse of mirrors and when they finally broke, the same should be true for the link. What you are saying is that the magic from the link is what's actively merging the universes and I asked you to provide evidence to back this assumption up. You can always see my previous reply:

So yeah, if nothing of that sort is mentioned, that conclusion is purely headcanon. If the only thing mentioned as the reason for universes getting merged is the overuse of mirror, I'd argue it is far more logical to just chalk it up to dimensional instability caused by it, and it can't be scaled back to whatever power was used in creating the link, hence unquantifiable. And that would be a far safer conclusion too. Saying the link forcibly and actively used its energy to merge the universe, in the given context, has no basis whatsoever and is clearly the absolute highest interpretation/assumption you can make.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd argue that having a neutral user who doesn't know much about the verse can be a good thing because that user might ask the relevant questions and for relevant scans to cover all bases so that there is no confusion left for the future. It's obviously better than having only supporters of the verse in a thread who will just FRA to the absolute highest assumptions to push for exaggerated ratings. And that is one of the practices that has been turning the wiki full of wonky ratings when it comes to such verses.

Strongly agreed. Filter bubbles and bias for specific verses have lead to a lot of unreliable statistics over the years, which are the main reason for why our wiki has a bad reputation.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Like I said earlier from what I gathered from your statements and the scans, the overuse of the mirrors is what initiated the process of universes getting connected and when it broke, the universes started merging. This can be easily chalked up to dimensional instability caused by the overuse of mirrors and when they finally broke, the same should be true for the link.

Is that not what I've been implying throughout the thread? We know overusing the mirrors is what's causing the dimensional instability. That is not being questioned and argued. What I'm arguing for is attributing this to the magic that created the mirror to begin with.

What you are saying is that the magic from the link is what's actively merging the universes and I asked you to provide evidence to back this assumption up. You can always see my previous reply:

I gave you my evidence by informing you of the time Sci-Twi accidentally stole the mirrors magic. Would it help if I posted the scene where this actually happens? Nothing is said, but we are shown what I'm telling you. Nevermind, I'll post it anyway so I don't have to later. Note, that the device taking the energy is one specifically designed to track and absorb magical energy.

The link/mirror portal needs magic in order to function, it uses magic as its fuel source. There's literally no portal/link if the magic gets taken from it. By default, the magic has to be sustaining what the mirror is doing, or else the mirror loses its connection. It's completely impossible for it not to do so given these circumstances. What I saying is: The magic isn't actively causing it, but what it is doing is sustaining it. The portal can't connect the worlds without that magic. Take it away, and the link instantly turns off.

 

[ÆONS]

Amelia said: No offense to anyone, but this is why summoning someone who doesn't know squat about the verse is a very bad thing, it either causes blind agreements, or causes repetitive arguments like this because we have to explain every little aspect of the lore over and over again. Everyone here who is aware of the verse and its mechanics are okay with the changes, but the one person who isn't well-versed in it, isn't. Why is their opinion suddenly worth more then everyone else's?

I both agree and disagree with you. Having people who are neutral or have little knowledge of the verse can be a good thing since it prevents said verse from becoming too bloated with information, statistics, and powers of which make it more powerful than it otherwise should. In other words, it makes things more factual.

However, there are other instances where it becomes undeniably problematic. I have seen threads, particularly from Toaru and Nasuverse, where a mass of knowledgable people from the said verse, which include credible staff members such as Administrators, try to argue that their verse is this and that and provide numerous solid evidence for that. Yet, the one individual, typically a staff member themself, who knows little to none of the verse ignores said evidence and keeps on following their flawed logic and ideas of said verse. Even worse, there are other instances where OTHER people who aren't knowledgeable on said verse starts to agree with that certain individual and push against the knowledgeable side even more. This kind of thing almost resulted in Toaru losing its High 1-C characters and getting downgraded from the tier and it was only saved when other staff members, almost miraculously, came over and agreed with the knowledgeable members on the verse.

I do think Amelia makes a good point, but I also don't think we should be too hard on AKM for still having misunderstandings here and there. I'm still going to support Starswirl having possibly 2-C AP for his accomplishments in regards to the mirror world.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant evidence for that there was not just a destabilising chain reaction effect merging the universes, but rather magical energy infused into the mirrors by Starswirl that actively forced the universes to merge into one whole.

Still, I am not sure if physically merging two universes, rather than retroactively mix their entire timelines as well, really qualifies for 2-C in the first place, or if it is just a 3-A or High 3-A feat.

I still need convincing input regarding these points as well.

Please show evidence for how this is a raw power feat rather than a chain reaction.

In addition, I am not even sure if simply physically merging two universes is more than a 3-A or High 3-A feat, unless entire timelines were involved.

 

[AKM sama]

Nothing in your response is relevant to my query here. I never said there is no magic involved in the links. I never said that magic isn't sustaining what the mirror is doing. I never said the portals can connect the worlds without magic.

What I saying is: The magic isn't actively causing it, but what it is doing is sustaining it.

There is my answer. So the magic isn't what's actively merging the two universes. The magic was only there to maintain the link and once the link was broken as a result of the destruction of mirror, the magic should be gone too. If I create a machine to cause instability in the universe and the universe collapses as a result of that instability, the potency of my machine isn't universal. It's unquantifiable. But since you're having problems understanding it, I'll tone it down to a real world example. If I create a machine to cause instability in a multi-storey building by destroying a few of its pillars and the building collapses because of that, is my machine building level now?

Magic -> causes dimensional instability = unquantifiable amount of energy

Instability -> causes universes to merge = which is possibly a 2-C feat

This is akin to a domino effect or chain effect where the potency of the magic isn't determined by the final result because the final result itself is caused by an arbitrary and unquantifiable process, just like the building example. Your whole point falls flat on itself as there was always the magic energy in the link and the universes were fine. So this was surely not a result of magic energy being used in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with AKM.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Ok. One: @Antvasima determining whether or not this feat is scaleable to AP is far more important than whether or not fusing two space-time continuums is tier 3 or not. I will get to it when I get to it. This is not as important as proving the feat even scales to begin with, because if it doesn't, then it's not getting a tier at all. Give me time and it will be addressed. Demanding I address a lesser point is just putting stress on me and making it harder to argue against the meat of the problem.

 

[ÆONS]

I'll just post a list of those who are in favor of and against the change just so we are all caught up with what is going on. If I'm making any mistakes please let me know.

People who are for the change: @Lightbuster30, @Amelia_Lonelyheart, @ÆONS, @Matthew_Schroeder, @DarkDragonMedeus

People who are against the change: @Antvasima, @AKM sama

Neutral: None

 

[Lightbuster30]

I don't believe it matters how many people agree or not.

 

[ÆONS]

I don't believe it matters how many people agree or not.

I suppose you are correct. It is simply a list though, so it probably does not mean much anyways.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Reading through the rest of the thread I'm beginning to grow a little uncertain of the very liberal Tier 2 scaling. AKM has some good points.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Nothing in your response is relevant to my query here. I never said there is no magic involved in the links. I never said that magic isn't sustaining what the mirror is doing. I never said the portals can connect the worlds without magic.

You said that I said the magic of the link was directly causing, I was making a correction that it was sustaining it.

There is my answer. So the magic isn't what's actively merging the two universes. The magic was only there to maintain the link and once the link was broken as a result of the destruction of mirror, the magic should be gone too.

Not at all how this works. Both sides of the portal are connected to each other by the link and both are enchanted by magic. Destroying one side just prevents you from actually traveling to the other as one half of the doorway is now gone.

Why is this relevant in the first place? Are you trying to say that the Universes were going to continue merging without the magic? Because that's wrong too if you are. Even if the magic is gone, it doesn't matter. By the time the mirror was shattered it had already torn apart the dimensional walls of the Universes to the point of collapse. The dimensional walls were all but gone. By that point, the damage had already been done and it was too late to do anything.

If I create a machine to cause instability in the universe and the universe collapses as a result of that instability the potency of my machine isn't universal. It's unquantifiable. But since you're having problems understanding it, I'll tone it down to a real world example. If I create a machine to cause instability in a multi-storey building by destroying a few of its pillars and the building collapses because of that, is my machine building level now?

I'm not seeing how the example holds up. There's a world of difference between destroying the dimensional walls of two Universes across the entirety of said Universes and destroying a couple of support pillars. Support pillars don't hold together buildings by surrounding the building in its entirety, they distribute the weight of structures above them via compression. Furthermore, most machines aren't directly powered by their creator's life force.

Exactly what about support pillars and dimensional walls are even remotely similar? One works by distributing the weight and pressure of higher levels and the other functions as the walls of its entire reality. The former I can understand being a chain reaction, the latter, not so much.

Your whole point falls flat on itself as there was always the magic energy in the link and the universes were fine. So this was surely not a result of magic energy being used in the first place.

Because using the portal causes it to become unstable. The portal doesn't just exist and cause damage, it has to become unstable first. I've been saying that throughout the entirety of the thread. The portal didn't start passively causing damage until its instability hit a certain point. Without the magic, what about the mirror is so special that it can merge whole Universes? The mirror has no unique powers purely by itself.

 

[Lightbuster30]

There is my answer. So the magic isn't what's actively merging the two universes. The magic was only there to maintain the link and once the link was broken as a result of the destruction of mirror, the magic should be gone too.

I know I responded to this already in my comment, but there's also another point I forgot about:

Not only is magic never shown to not exist if a magical object is destroyed, but this idea is actively contradicted throughout the series. The Crystal Heart being able to be fixed and not losing any of the magic it accumulated over the years is a good example along with the spirit of the Tree of harmony (which is pure magic) being alive once the tree was destroyed by Sombra.

 

[AKM sama]

You said that I said the magic of the link was directly causing, I was making a correction that it was sustaining it.

Okay then. The magic was sustaining the link. Not relevant to my query at all.

Exactly what about support pillars and dimensional walls are even remotely similar? One works by distributing the weight and pressure of higher levels and the other functions as the walls of its entire reality. The former I can understand being a chain reaction, the latter, not so much.

I think you're purposefully dodging the main point here by delving into the mechanics and physics of pillars. The main point is that overuse of mirrors caused instability, and instability caused the merging of universes. The thing that caused instability cannot be scaled back to the end result of what happened because of that instability. It's really simple to follow and the example was there to emphasize this point.

Magic -> causes dimensional instability = unquantifiable amount of energy

Instability -> causes universes to merge = which is possibly a 2-C feat

I am done with these walls of text here and I've already made my point clear. Unless you have some kind of undeniable evidence/scan that shows the magic energy used in the link is what's actively merging the universes, it will just be an unsupported hypothesis of yours. So bring that scan/evidence and get this thread over with. If it doesn't exist, then I'm afraid 2-C can't be accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with AKM sama.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I think you're purposefully dodging the main point here by delving into the mechanics and physics of pillars. The main point is that overuse of mirrors caused instability, and instability caused the merging of universes. The thing that caused instability cannot be scaled back to the end result of what happened because of that instability. It's really simple to follow and the example was there to emphasize this point.

Ok then, just to clear something up here: When you say instability, are you saying that the overusing mirror caused instability between the universes? I just need to check with you before making my response so I know exactly what you're saying.

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, because the only reason we get for this phenomenon of universes starting to merge together over time is "overuse of mirrors" which acts as a portal between 2 universes.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Alright then, I think I understand the problem now. Give me a moment or longer to talk with my Discord group. They know the arc better than I do and their input on this subject would help me immensely.

 

[AKM sama]

Why don't you just call them here so they can discuss directly instead of them discussing it indirectly and you being the messenger lol

 

[Lightbuster30]

Why don't you just call them here so they can discuss directly instead of them discussing it indirectly and you being the messenger lol

Because some of them don't have accounts here. Particularly the one who knows about the arc and brought the feat to my attention in the first place.

 

[Lightbuster30]

If I could prove the mirror was the instability itself, then would that change anything? Not the cause of the instability, but actually being the instability breaking down dimensional walls?

 

[AKM sama]

Possibly. Depends on the context and how much of it changes from what you've been saying till now.

 

[AKM sama]

Has there been anything else in the OP that has been accepted here? Because if so, that can be applied and this thread can be closed. No need to delay this if there aren't any arguments left.

I think I also forgot to point out that even if you had found the scan saying that the magic is what's directly responsible for the merging of universes, the character in question still wouldn't have been straight up 2-C because the process was happening gradually over a long period of time. It wasn't a one-shot.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I think I also forgot to point out that even if you had found the scan saying that the magic is what's directly responsible for the merging of universes, the character in question still wouldn't have been straight up 2-C because the process was happening gradually over a long period of time. It wasn't a one-shot.

You can't say it took a long time to fully destroy the dimensional walls because it wasn't constantly exerting the energy to do so over that period of time. That only happened whenever the mirror was used. The mirror only began to passively destroy dimensional walls near the very end of the comic prior to shattering.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Anyways, on the topic of the mirror. The mirror has to be the instability. There is no mention in the comic of the mirror creating an instability that is breaking down dimensional walls. We're shown directly that the mirror is the instability since it's shattering dramatically accelerates the merging process. This showcases that the mirror itself is directly tied to the dimensional wall destruction. A complete merging wouldn't be happening the instant the mirror shattered if it were just an instability created by the mirror since otherwise, the destruction would be tied to what happens to the instability and not the mirror.

 

[ÆONS]

Has there been anything else in the OP that has been accepted here? Because if so, that can be applied and this thread can be closed. No need to delay this if there aren't any arguments left.

As far as I know, Light and I agree that those who are Low 2-C without the use of the elements of harmony should be downgraded to High 3-A.

 

[Lightbuster30]

As far as I know, Light and I agree that those who are Low 2-C without the use of the elements of harmony should be downgraded to High 3-A.

If 2-C doesn't go through I actually did want to talk about this a bit more. I've recently been with someone about scaling to the Elements since making the the thread and they brought up some fair points. But I'd rather finish this topic first.

 

[AKM sama]

You can't say it took a long time to fully destroy the dimensional walls

I can. It's literally in the scan. It did not happen at once. The process started way before the mirror broke.

The mirror has to be the instability. There is no mention in the comic of the mirror creating an instability that is breaking down dimensional walls. We're shown directly that the mirror is the instability since it's shattering dramatically accelerates the merging process.

And we are back at square one. This is again your assumption because nothing in the comic states that directly. And again, this is not about the mirror, it's an ordinary mirror without the magic imbued in it, so this is about the link again. And I already addressed all the points related to why you cannot scale the AP of two universes merging over an unknown amount of time directly back to the magic in the link. If there is nothing new to discuss, then please drop this topic. I don't have time to constantly indulge in the same argument presented with a different kind of coating.

As far as I know, Light and I agree that those who are Low 2-C without the use of the elements of harmony should be downgraded to High 3-A.

These changes can be applied then. Is somebody experienced willing to apply these changes? I can unlock whatever pages are locked with my automated script if you tell me the exact titles of those pages. Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I can. It's literally in the scan. It did not happen at once. The process started way before the mirror broke.

Then can we back scale to Low 2-C instead depending on how much time has passed? Beerus and Champa have being one-half 2-C as one of their justifications. Obviously, it's not the only justification, but it is considered good enough to be put on the page.

And we are back at square one. This is again your assumption because nothing in the comic states that directly.

Mirror shatters > Dimensions go from slowly weakening walls to overlapping and nearly merging with each other.

How is using what I've been shown on screen assumption? It's clearly the mirror. Why does it matter that we aren't told outright when we're shown it?

And again, this is not about the mirror, it's an ordinary mirror without the magic imbued in it, so this is about the link again.

"Mirror becoming unstable" "link becoming unstable" I'm referring to them in the same context for the sake of ease.

And I already addressed all the points related to why you cannot scale the AP of two universes merging over an unknown amount of time directly back to the magic in the link.

From what I've gathered of your arguments going through the thread, you've been telling me we can't scale to instability caused by the link because the link isn't the direct cause for the merging, only an instability that was never brought up, which I am arguing against in my second to last comment.

 

[AKM sama]

At this point you are just repeating your arguments again and making me do the same. All it does is stone wall the thread and I can do this all day. But I will close this thread soon as it has gone on for long enough.

It's stated that overuse of mirrors is causing the universes to merge gradually. Mirrors are imbued with magic that links the two universes together. You're saying that the magic is directly responsible for merging the two universes together when all it does is link them through portals with no proof whatsoever. I am saying it can easily be chalked up to the instability that was implied to be caused by the overusing the portals between the universes. And it's only possible if somehow it made the separation of the space-time continuums of both universes weaker, which is an unquantifiable feat by default. That's what I am referring to when I say instability. If nothing is clear is stated, we won't go with the highest interpretation. And there isn't nearly enough evidence of such kind to make a revision like this.

Not to mention that this isn't remotely like Beerus and Champa's feat. This is a gradual process happening over time so it wouldn't be 2-C no matter how you put it. And I am not even sure if merging alone will grant 2-C because it isn't the same as destroying. But that's besides the point. The main point is still that you can't find Starswirl's AP using this because of aforementioned reasons.

This was my last post repeating myself. I won't reply back if you're just gonna pursue this matter with the same kind of arguments.

Is somebody willing to make the changes that were accepted in this thread?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Is somebody willing to make the changes that were accepted in this thread?

To restate what I said before: I actually wanted to discuss those changes a bit more before doing anything.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Ok, moving on from the mirror, I wanted to talk about the Elements of Harmony. Like I mentioned before, I was confronted on this sometime after making the thread, and I think I've realized a few things since then. I think my biggest problem with the scaling was that I thought The Elements were only baseline Low 2-C, thus even if you back scaled them, you'd still only get High 3-A since, by default, they are weaker than a power that is considered the baseline for tier 2. The Elements should've been 2-C from the start. Sci-Twi did admit that she almost destroyed the Human and Pony Universes as Midnight Sparkle. Initially, I argued that it didn't count because she planned on going to the Pony world after the Human World's destruction, but there's really nothing indicating this. Her intent doesn't matter when we can clearly see that both worlds are being destroyed at the same rate.

Even more impressive than this is the fact that Sunset Shimmer was able to "almost" match Midnight after absorbing 5 out of 6 Elements of Harmony. Meaning the Elements are on par with a 2-C without the magic of all 6. The full power of all 6 Elements would clearly be above this.

In terms of scaling, we could potentially keep it by scaling the top tiers (Anyone weaker than the Elements of Harmony) to Low 2-C while making the Elements 2-C. Nightmare Moon was able to push back against them, Sombra was able to survive being blasted the first time before being forced to flee. Star Swirl has 2, maybe even 3 separate feats of at least holding his own against the Pony of Shadows who is at least an equal to the Elements (Two beam clashes, and a shield powerful enough to withstand two blasts before breaking). With this in mind I do believe that it shows that at their full power, they are at least relative to the Elements, while still being beneath them.

I know I said that they were the strongest force of magic in the series but by how much is vague. They can best the likes of Discord, but in his case, it's a bit of a rock paper scissors deal. It's the Spirit of Disharmony versus The Elements of Harmony; a power designed to restore the order of things. As far as Sombra is concerned, getting vaporized might be an inconsistency compared to the many feats that imply a level of relativity to them in power. I mean, in the same two-parter he destroys the Tree of Harmony with high difficulty and can momentarily withstand a blast before being forced to flee.

 

[ÆONS]

Ok, moving on from the mirror, I wanted to talk about the Elements of Harmony. Like I mentioned before, I was confronted on this sometime after making the thread, and I think I've realized a few things since then. I think my biggest problem with the scaling was that I thought The Elements were only baseline Low 2-C, thus even if you back scaled them, you'd still only get High 3-A since, by default, they are weaker than a power that is considered the baseline for tier 2. The Elements should've been 2-C from the start. Sci-Twi did admit that she almost destroyed the Human and Pony Universes as Midnight Sparkle. Initially, I argued that it didn't count because she planned on going to the Pony world after the Human World's destruction, but there's really nothing indicating this. Her intent doesn't matter when we can clearly see that both worlds are being destroyed at the same rate.

Oh...that. I remember arguing about this last year and was trying to convince folks that the elements were actually 2-C based on this logic, but I was not able to convince you and I think I was outnumbered by a bunch of people so it did not get through. I agree with this line of reasoning nevertheless.

Even more impressive than this is the fact that Sunset Shimmer was able to "almost" match Midnight after absorbing 5 out of 6 Elements of Harmony. Meaning the Elements are on par with a 2-C without the magic of all 6. The full power of all 6 Elements would clearly be above this.

Yep, I agree.

In terms of scaling, we could potentially keep it by scaling the top tiers (Anyone weaker than the Elements of Harmony) to Low 2-C while keeping the Elements at 2-C. Nightmare Moon was able to push back against them even momentarily, Sombra was able to survive being blasted the first time before being forced to flee. Star Swirl has 2, maybe even 3 separate feats of at least holding his own against the Pony of Shadows who is at least an equal to the Elements (Two beam clashes, and a shield powerful enough to withstand two blasts before breaking). With this in mind I do believe that it shows that at their full power, they are at least relative to the Elements, while still being beneath them.

Personally, I think those who were able to fight back against the elements at full power should be "Likely 2-C" rather than just Low 2-C considering they were able to match up to 2-C AP for a while. The other characters who are considerably strong but have never fought the elements should probably be High 3-A.

I know I said that they were the strongest force of magic in the series but by how much is vague. They can best the likes of Discord, but in his case, it's a bit of a rock paper scissors deal. It's the Spirit of Disharmony versus a power designed to restore the order of things. As far as Sombra is concerned, getting vaporized might be an inconsistency compared to the many feats that imply a level of relativity to them in power. I mean, in the same two-parter he destroys the Tree of Harmony with High difficulty and can momentarily withstand a blast before being forced to flee. I'll wait for others to respond, but I think scaling to Low 2-C could work if the Elements weren't baseline.

I think Discord might be 2-C himself via sheer scaling to people who succeeded in fighting the elements like while also having a very noticeable weakness to them, but I'm not exactly sure how Discord compares to them so you may take that statement with a grain of salt. In the case of Sombra, I think his 2-C AP is legit considering he destroyed the Tree of Harmony which did contain the elements, which were active, and it is stated on their profile that they have at least Universe level+ durability, which is actually Low Multiversal.

I'll wait for more input.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Oh...that. I remember arguing about this last year and was trying to convince folks that the elements were actually 2-C based on this logic, but I was not able to convince you and I think I was outnumbered by a bunch of people so it did not get through. I agree with this line of reasoning nevertheless.

A year is plenty of time for me to change my mind. I'm in a full Discord server where we discuss their feats.

Personally, I think those who were able to fight back against the elements at full power should be "Likely 2-C" rather than just Low 2-C considering they were able to match up to 2-C AP for a while. The other characters who are considerably strong but have never fought the elements should probably be High 3-A.

The issue here lies with my same problem with scaling to the Elements. I did say that the full power Elements should be higher than just 5 of them, but the problem lies with by how much. So if we did do any scaling, I wouldn't feel safe giving them the full 2-C rating. You don't necessarily have to be equal to something in power to hold it back, only relative to it.

I think his 2-C AP is legit considering he destroyed the Tree of Harmony which did contain the elements, which were active, and it is stated on their profile that they have at least Universe level+ durability, which is actually Low Multiversal.

I'll wait for more input.

That was after roughly ten whole seconds (I counted) of charging his magic for one big attack though. It's not something he can just dish out casually. Which yet again, falls back on my problem with scaling to them fully. I personally think acknowledging he and others are relative to them with Low 2-C is safer than fully giving them 2-C.

 

[AKM sama]

Uhh, you literally backtracked from the arguments you presented in the OP to which many of the people already agreed with in the thread. Unless the people come back to this thread again and see whether your new backtracked arguments make more sense than the previous ones, I don't think this will be accepted.

They likely have unfollowed the thread and the thread itself has other topic taking a major portion of it so calling them here again will just confuse them. It seems better if you create another upgrade thread for that purpose.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Uhh, you literally backtracked from the arguments you presented in the OP to which many of the people already agreed with in the thread. Unless the people come back to this thread again and see whether your new backtracked arguments make more sense than the previous ones, I don't think this will be accepted.

They likely have unfollowed the thread and the thread itself has other topic taking a major portion of it so calling them here again will just confuse them. It seems better if you create another upgrade thread for that purpose.

I know I know. But like I mentioned before I was confronted on my line of thinking after making the thread and got into an debate over it. But, sure, I'll make the thread. Probably tomorrow though. It's getting close to midnight.

 

[AKM sama]

Until that thread is accepted, the agreed upon changes still need to be made. Is somebody experienced willing to make the changes?

 

[ÆONS]

A year is plenty of time for me to change my mind. I'm in a full Discord server where we discuss their feats.

The issue here lies with my same problem with scaling to the Elements. I did say that the full power Elements should be higher than just 5 of them, but the problem lies with by how much. So if we did do any scaling, I wouldn't feel safe giving them the full 2-C rating. You don't necessarily have to be equal to something in power to hold it back, only relative to it.

That was after roughly ten whole seconds (I counted) of charging his magic for one big attack though. It's not something he can just dish out casually. Which yet again, falls back on my problem with scaling to them fully. I personally think acknowledging he and others are relative to them with Low 2-C is safer than fully giving them 2-C.

I'm not exactly comfortable either, which is why I am giving them Likely 2-C ratings since there are contexts that stop them from getting the full tiering, particularly only holding them back temporarily. The contexts are still favorable for the tiering though IMO.

Them being "Low 2-C, likely 2-C" is acceptable by my standards as well.