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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

No one would be upset with UI level Broly
I swear, I've talked about this offsite and people were so unfathomably annoying about it. People were just really mad he was stronger than Jiren. I said something along the lines of "Oh, yeah, his best transformation is stronger than the fusion multiplier" and people were going like "UMM, ACTUALLY, HIS POWER GROWS OVER TIME" as if I didn't know that.
 
The concept of "finding your own version of Ultra Instinct" is so completely and utterly counterintuitive to the entire concept of Ultra Instinct being this completely unique ability that you can only achieve by calming your heart. But no, as it turns out, you can go wild with your emotions with "your own form of Ultra Instinct," totally negating the conditions for using the form to begin with. Even worse is that Goku literally calmed his heart perfectly fine enough to use MUI without issue against Moro after Merus literally died. So why is he suddenly having trouble with that? It's literally creating a problem that never existed and then making up some BS "solution," and I hope this is a sign that Toriyama/Toyotaro realized how badly they screwed up with this "True Ultra Instinct" concept.
Yah I hate how they keep disrespecting everything that happened in the previous arcs. I think the problem is the product of trying to create layers to the mastery of MUI. I mean going from totally calm to even calmer is kinda weird.

They perhaps should have expanded the training to other angel techniques. Only two godly techniques, each for Angel and GoD is not a lot. Especially if you have a life span of more than a million
 
GGfZbfiWgAASAKY
From DBS chronicles
 
To be fair: We don't even know how Frieza trained without any sparring partner...I mean did he punch the air alot until he turned black? So beating up Cell Jrs in comparison is kinda okay. ( The whole poacher thing obviously not.)
 
To be fair: We don't even know how Frieza trained without any sparring partner...I mean did he punch the air alot until he turned black? So beating up Cell Jrs in comparison is kinda okay. ( The whole poacher thing obviously not.)
Probably like the mental training he did in hell which allowed him to perfect his golden form except better because he isn't physically immobile.
 
Almost as if time passed.
Cell Jrs should already be a whole new dimension of strength
People train on their own and get way stronger all the time. His training can last as long as he wants, he has infinite stamina.
That doesn't make any sense, he literally said he didn't do any particular training, he just punched poachers, that's IT. And even if he did some worldly training, that doesn't explain how he got god level strength which was portrayed as absolutely unachieavable to the cast when it was first introduced, but now everyone is as strong as BoG SSG Goku by "training really hard"?

No, stop defending this god awful show, DBS has no self-respect.
 
To be fair: We don't even know how Frieza trained without any sparring partner...I mean did he punch the air alot until he turned black? So beating up Cell Jrs in comparison is kinda okay. ( The whole poacher thing obviously not.)
The poachers are like the rocks Goten threw at Gohan.
 
To be fair: We don't even know how Frieza trained without any sparring partner...I mean did he punch the air alot until he turned black? So beating up Cell Jrs in comparison is kinda okay. ( The whole poacher thing obviously not.)
Two wrongs don't make a right, Frieza's training is also just an asspull to make him catch up to the cast, at least bro has implied potential from an alien species, 17 is just a human with super saiyan level tech in him, it makes no sense.
 
Two wrongs don't make a right, Frieza's training is also just an asspull to make him catch up to the cast, at least bro has implied potential from an alien species, 17 is just a human with super saiyan level tech in him, it makes no sense.
Human with infinite stamina, though yeah still it's still pretty insane that he managed to get to that level.
 
Two wrongs don't make a right, Frieza's training is also just an asspull to make him catch up to the cast, at least bro has implied potential from an alien species, 17 is just a human with super saiyan level tech in him, it makes no sense.
I really love the way you right. II can't stop laughing for some reason hahahahhahahahahah Any time you write , i can feel the anger through my screen:p

But hold on: I am looking for scans for the whole A17 thing. There was some statement about his cells being modified and him having the weird generator that gives him infinite stamina.
 
There isn't a single piece of canon media before DBS that isn't well constructed, tbh.

Any power up in DB and DBZ is well thought-out, and makes sense.
Super Saiyan 3 is not a very well thought-out transformation. It's just "beyond Super Saiyan but again because why not"
 
SSJ4 is actually pretty well thought out tbh. GT in general had a lot of good ideas on paper that just get absolutely butchered.
I'd say SSJ4 and Ultra Instinct are both actually better thought out as overall transformations than SSJ2 and especially SSJ3.

Like I said before, SSJ2 would pretty much be nothing without Gohan.
 

Anyone mind taking a look?
 
I'd say SSJ4 and Ultra Instinct are both actually better thought out as overall transformations than SSJ2 and especially SSJ3.

Like I said before, SSJ2 would pretty much be nothing without Gohan.
The contrast between SSj4 and UI is kind of crazy though. One completely transcends their race and the characteristics associated with a saiyan while the other digs deeper into and embraces the saiyan's and their origins and uses it as their strength. Yet both are quite well done. If there's one thing I could commend super on, is making an original form that's often held up to the same regard as the original super saiyan, and I can see why.
 
Basically any form beyond SSJ in Z
  • The super sayayin 2 is fine, since they enter the room of time, the transformations begin to develop until they reach that
  • Supersayayin 3 is a "I trained off camera in the heaven for 7 years and achieved this transformation... the fusion of these children will be achieved magically"...It is the definition of mediocre, technically there is nothing bad, but I can't say anything good about it apart from its design
  • The god is a "magical ritual from a legend involving the first super sayayin" and is not deserved... but that's the point, Goku in the movie and in the anime admits to not liking it being obtained that way (ironically Vegeta having achieved it with effort is the plot problem, since we were never told that it was possible), It's decent as a point of development for Goku to put aside his pride for the sake of others (which is basically the development that Goku and Vegeta have in the movie), but it's still a mediocre transformation, bordering on bad.
  • The blue is terrible in the movie, they try to give it some development in the anime but it basically becomes the standard (becoming a bad transformation), and the manga skips how they got it... and even then, is the better version, because it takes advantage of It is an inexistent space to make it a transformation that they must master through the universe saga 6 vs 7 and the Black saga
  • Ultra Instinct is quite good, although its obtaining in the anime is horrible, but since then, they try to give it layers, unfortunately the granola one although it is good for the development of the saga of the true sayayin pride and all that... it has problems with the character already established in previous sagas, even so I would say that it is fine
  • The ultraego is fine, it was just introduced and dominated extremely quickly.
  • The explanation that was given to us apart from Orange Piccolo is not bad that I remember, and the manga had made it clear that the Namekean balls were formerly used as a kind of reward for worthy Namekean warriors or something like that, so I consider that it has some bases (probably accidental) acceptable

Now, if you want to talk about more transformations, the super saysyin rage from Black's arc, Vegeta's super sayayin evolution, and Gohan Beast exists
None of them have a clear explanation, and the evolution version of the manga originates from what is basically a tantrum, wt# Vegeta?

I didn't see GT other than part of the first saga (I think it came until shortly after the metal guy supposedly stronger than even Majon boo or something like that) So I won't comment on super sayayin 4
 
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To be fair: We don't even know how Frieza trained without any sparring partner...I mean did he punch the air alot until he turned black? So beating up Cell Jrs in comparison is kinda okay. ( The whole poacher thing obviously not.)
Just like Goku, Frieza isn't above stealing techniques so who knows he might've pulled a Tien and trained with duplicates of himself?

That said I agree transformation/power boost fatigue is gradually getting even more ridiculous in DBS I can't wait for AUI Goku (Ascended Ultra Instinct) and RUE Vegeta (Royal Ultra Ego) kek! but that's ongoing shonen for you, unless it's prequel or slice of life story power-creep is inevitable regardless if it makes sense or not (narratively).

Heck I don't even mind characters getting stronger (when it's not conspicuous power-scaling bait) just don't contradict or invalidate previous arcs/development.
 
I swear, I've talked about this offsite and people were so unfathomably annoying about it. People were just really mad he was stronger than Jiren. I said something along the lines of "Oh, yeah, his best transformation is stronger than the fusion multiplier" and people were going like "UMM, ACTUALLY, HIS POWER GROWS OVER TIME" as if I didn't know that.
Jiren solos, Broly was amped by rage.
 
New CRT for Freeza Plot manipulation just dropped.



 
I've come back just to defend SSJ3. It's a plot device there as an actual physical representation of Buu Saga's core lesson of no one person being the path to victory anymore. SSJ3 didn't do anything because it wasn't supposed to.

Also Super has its moments and I'm not gonna pretend it doesn't.
 
Lastly, the concept of Goku trying to make UI his own is perfectly fine. He's done it with every form he's gotten, mastering Super Saiyan and creating Super Saiyan Blue then adding Kaioken onto of that.

However, pulling a random out of nowhere form that has some shaky ass justification is goofy.

Frieza getting as strong as he did so quickly is fine imo, he never trained a day in his life and was already as strong as he was.
 
I've come back just to defend SSJ3. It's a plot device there as an actual physical representation of Buu Saga's core lesson of no one person being the path to victory anymore. SSJ3 didn't do anything because it wasn't supposed to.

Also Super has its moments and I'm not gonna pretend it doesn't.
Looking like this... it's not so bad
 
Super Saiyan 3 is not a very well thought-out transformation. It's just "beyond Super Saiyan but again because why not"
It has justification for existing at the very least, it fits a narrative at least. Goku trained 7 YEARS to achieve it and it only works by exerting the principles of Super Saiyan (boosting at an unthinkable cost of stamina) to their max, which was only possible BECAUSE Goku was in the afterlife which has no time flow.

Everything makes sense and is justifiable. If you're going to be as skeptical as that, then no form in any capacity has a "logical explanation to why it exists" because this is fiction.

Also people are allowed to defend whatever writing they want, no need to blow a gasket over it
I forgot the authority I had, I'm sorry Clover! oh my oh my /s

Nah, people are allowed to like trash, doesn't mean I can't complain about it, freedom goes both ways my friend.
 
Lastly, the concept of Goku trying to make UI his own is perfectly fine. He's done it with every form he's gotten, mastering Super Saiyan and creating Super Saiyan Blue then adding Kaioken onto of that.

However, pulling a random out of nowhere form that has some shaky ass justification is goofy.
This is the manga version, putting the Kaioken on Blue only happens in the tournament of power, and they immediately tell you that it is wrong, after which it is never used again, everything else is valid if I see it
Frieza getting as strong as he did so quickly is fine imo, he never trained a day in his life and was already as strong as he was.
That would work if the previous arc wasn't the battle of the gods, literally Goku obtains a different type of ki (divine) and puts a transformation on another that was going to destroy the universe (even if you only take into account the movie, it is assumed that not even Vegito could against Bill)... then Frieza appears out of nowhere and it turns out that he is a prodigy who in four months creates a transformation that surpasses all that (depending on the version alone or with Tagoma, both are rare) that surpasses the Blue (not the same, he surpasses Blue, and is only defeated for making a mistake that he had already made in previous sagas, going to the minimum possibility of revenge on earth)
It's simply that the levels are too far apart, especially for someone who was given mechanical implants that apparently made him stronger (which he doesn't have now) and still received a beating from a super sayayin, and I may be remembering wrongly, but Did Frieza know about Goku's super sayayin god? I only remember them telling him that he defeated Buu.
Black Freeza is better for the simple fact that nothing is invented to justify the power up, but rather it uses bases that already exist in the manga (its potential, and the fact that planets have time rooms) to create a threat
 
I've come back just to defend SSJ3. It's a plot device there as an actual physical representation of Buu Saga's core lesson of no one person being the path to victory anymore. SSJ3 didn't do anything because it wasn't supposed to.

Also Super has its moments and I'm not gonna pretend it doesn't.
Holy shit that's actually a really perceptive way to look at it though, this slightly bumped up my respect for the Buu Saga.
 
Again, the only transformations that deserve bullying are the Blue Evolution, the SSJ Rage and the Beast (although slightly less, because at least it has an explanation... bad, but it does) all the others have something that saves them or makes them worse. makes good directly
If I had to choose which one is worse... evolution manga (it's a damn tantrum, for the love of Zeno)
 
SSJ Rage had so much narrative backing that was shot in the face by the lack of in universe explanation. Also I'm still fine with Frieza getting that strong. I'm gone for real this time.
 
I know it's in reference to the manga iteration, but I actually quite love Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the anime for one reason: It's a form that was achieved through selfless intentions and IMO served as a way of showing how far Vegeta has come since his days of being a ruthless killer.

Most of Vegeta's transformations up until that point were either fueled by selfish desires (Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was triggered from a mixture of jealously and anger that he was weaker then a "low class" Saiyan like Goku who achieved a form thought to be myth before he did, and I don't think I need to clarify the intent behind Vegeta allowing himself to become a Majin) or was a result of his intensive training to begin with (Super Saiyan 2, God, Blue, etc). But what makes Evolution stand out in the best way possible is that he obtained it not from selfishness or training, but a desire to protect those he loves and to serve as proof of his promise to Cabba that he'll revive Universe 6 if it were erased during the tournament. In the anime, Evolution to me feels like a cultivation of decades of character development on Vegeta's part and cemented that he wasn't the ruthless and selfish killer that he was in the past but someone who uses his strength to fight for those he loves and values in his life.

Dragon Ball Super is a mess to be sure, and I don't think both the anime and the manga go above "decent" from my standards of quality, but its moments like that which help me remember why I fell in love with Dragon Ball in spite of its flaws and shortcomings.
 
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