Re:Zero Hits the Gym—Fixing Their Lifting Feats

[SatellaTheWoE]

This CRT proposes updating the lifting strength of various characters based on newly evaluated feats.

Characters Affected by Heinkel's Feat:​

All characters Tier 7-A and above will receive Class K lifting strength.

Characters Affected by Roswaal's Feat:​

The following characters will be granted Class G lifting strength:

• Echidna
• Roswaal
• Sphinx
• 4 Great spirits
• Puck

Characters Affected by Reinhard's Feat:​

The following characters will be granted [Class E]:

• Reid
• 5th Shackle Ram (½ value)
• Volcanica
• Cecilus (Obereru key)
• Sekhmet
• Satella

Additional Considerations:​

• I am also considering granting Awakened Emilia Class G lifting strength.
• I noticed that Garf’s calculation actually had Class E LS as well, so I was wondering if that would be usable for Tier 6-As or not?

If there is anything I may have missed, please let me know.


Agree:
Disagree:

 

[Trxyway]

Following

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Straightforward.
Agree

 

[Zabazab]

Will look at this more in-depth later.

 

[V999]

Interesting...

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

I think this might work.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Didn't know the Reinhard Moon feat was even calculated, great.

Class G, K and Class E is fine. For Awakened Emilia, she has a lot of magic power, and is the one who created the ice which Roswaal lifted, she can certainly create massive objects, can she move it though? Could be iffy.

Mezoreia's lifting strength is from at fullpower moving the clouds from across Vollachia, Gairfiel punches it away, don't think that scales to his lifting strength, there was an argument about whether Mezoreia's feat could scale to the God tiers, but if I am seeing things right, Reinhard's Moon feat is actually higher, so no longer need to argue it.

In short don't think 6-A's scale, of course the previous thread agreed with possibly ratings scaling to Reinhard for Halibel and Cecilus so they would also get that too for their lifting strength.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Also can I say how good it feels not to see Class 5 on the profiles anymore

Now if we can talk about Class 50 Subaru for being able to move the watchtower door

 

[Chariot190]

Make sure to separate their physical LS and magical and whatnot LS where it differs.

 

[Zabazab]

Make sure to separate their physical LS and magical and whatnot LS where it differs.

Naturally

At least Class K[Note] (Superior to Ram), Class G[Note] with Magic (He lifted an enormous mountain-sized iceberg into the sky[28])

 

[Dalesean027]

changes seem fine and what Celestial_Pegasus said seems reasonable

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

everybody aside from 6As scale, Garf scaling is either a possibly or a no
Emilia can scale possibly i think

On the matter of Subaru, do we have any LS scaling for him too?

 

[Reiner04]

Looks fine.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

On the matter of Subaru, do we have any LS scaling for him too?

There was a statement in arc 9, something about him being able to slightly? Move the Pleiades door, but haven't yet read arc 9, and don't plan to until it's done or close to being done, so idk where that is.

I wouldn't be too concern with it, can be done in a more general arc 9 CRT.

 

[Zabazab]

There was a statement in arc 9, something about him being able to slightly?

Maybe I'm missing the tone and he's actually being sarcastic, but he does say this

Subsequently――,

Petra: [Ah, Subaru. This big door, how do we open it?]

Subaru: [Ah, it’s certainly huge, but it isn’t as heavy as it looks. If I put all my weight into it and push with all my might, it should open up just a little.]

Petra: [You used force!?]

Meili: [Oh ye~s. Because it was previously opened by the naked onee-san and Emilia-oneesan… and then, by the Sword Saint, I had forgo~tten.] —Arc 9, Chapter 9

Barusu tossing that rock at Capella in S3 is also pretty good.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The original statements about the door are interesting, no sure who exactly is saying they can't move the door here? Emilia?

“Whoa, that’s a crazy huge door…”
The door was well over ten yards tall and ten yards wide. It was made of a strange material that appeared to be stone. Is it the same material as the wall? “This is the official entrance to the tower. It’s pointlessly large, but it actually opened and closed when we entered.” “I see. So you’ve already gone in then? …Wait, what?” Hearing that they had used the entrance to the tower already, Subaru swung his head around. In the crazy big space around them, there was nothing other than the spiral stairs they had climbed connecting them to the floor they had come from. “Then how did Joseph and the carriage get all the way down there? There’s no way the carriage could take stairs that narrow…” “Ah, Shaula carried the carriage and the land dragon. She just lifted them over her head.” “…Pardon?” Thinking he had misheard something, Subaru looked at Emilia, who was adorably miming what she was describing without batting an eye. And no one was correcting her. Seeing Subaru’s reaction, Shaula puffed her chest out, her nostrils flaring slightly. “Like she said, I carried them. No sweat.” “The shock is winning out over the gratitude. That sounds like something even Reinhard couldn’t do.” In Subaru’s head, Reinhard was indisputably the person most likely to do something absurd or crazy, but even he wouldn’t lift a whole carriage over his head. He could split the world in half with the force of his sword, or walk on water, or even come back to life once, but that sort of brute strength was— “Actually, could he? I’m not so sure anymore. Is he human?” His cluttered thoughts about his friend aside, Subaru had finally figured out how the carriage had gotten down to the bottom. In which case, were the giant doors in front of him also operated manually using Shaula’s insane strength? “All I can say is they didn’t move at all when I pushed on them. That’s why we couldn’t do much to look for Lady Anastasia or the rest of you once we found ourselves in here after we got separated.”-Volume 22, Chapter 1

The door weighing like 50 tons could have made this whole upgrade look sketchy, if not for other feats like the recent one of Kurgan chucking that giant rock in the anime.

But anyway depending on who said the door didn't move at all ie Emilia, it would just be taken as a boast/lie from Subaru that he can move it, as he certainly isn't as strong as someone like Emilia...

 

[Zabazab]

no sure who exactly is saying they can't move the door here? Emilia?

It's Julius saying it... which is funny since Emilia does open the door according to Meili in arc 9, so I'd guess Subaru is just boasting. And Julius being physically weaker than Emilia, lol

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Wasn't there a side story where Subaru fell asleep with Ram in his arms and nobody could move his arms away

Despite there being Julius and Emilia both there

 

[Zabazab]

Snip

Yes, but it was a one-time thing and I'm certain if they pulled with all their might Emilia and Julius could rip off Subaru's arms.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So, whose going to bite the bullet, and apply this to the 50+ pages....

 

[Phoenks]

Jumping isn't lifting strength.

@DMUA

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Jumping isn't lifting strength.

@DMUA

Is jumping lifting strength, a conversation

So me and DMUA recently had a small debate, regarding whether jumping is lifting strength, I stated that it was lifting strength and DMUA stated the former. Now my question to other cgms is, what do you think? Is jumping lifting strength? Agree (Jumping is LS): Vzearr, Psychomaster, Dalesean...

vsbattles.com

This thread (while it doesn't seem to have been applied) seems to say otherwise, depending on the circumstances.

 

[Phoenks]

Is that concluded?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Is that concluded?

I have no idea.

 

[Chariot190]

Jumping isn't lifting strength.

@DMUA

That is most certainly not what the verdict was. It depends on the type of jump in question.

 

[Phoenks]

That is most certainly not what the verdict was. It depends on the type of jump in question.

There's no visual of the jump performed by Reinhard. And in the novel, I am uncertain if there was anything noting how he jumped. We just know he jumped. Do you have any additional information on the "depends" part?

 

[Chariot190]

There's no visual of the jump performed by Reinhard. And in the novel, I am uncertain if there was anything noting how he jumped. We just know he jumped. Do you have any additional information on the "depends" part?

What? It's literally in the thread you linked and discussions involving it. The depends the how it's done, for a visual example.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1275263235767009323/1361125466009899159/ezgif-3-2ae6b5c38c.gif?ex=67fd9e5f&is=67fc4cdf&hm=fd613f8f6d9eb2aba8a758f46e6d1914f1e1104bad6a59f410539c38ee087292&=&width=531&height=531

Example 1 is LS.
Example 2 is SS/AP.

It depends on the motion and interaction with the surface being "jumped off of", you can clearly see the difference, I don't think I need to explain why one is and one isn't aight.

Idk and idc if this feat counts, but "jumping isn't LS" isn't correct and shouldn't be said like that.

 

[Phoenks]

What? It's literally in the thread you linked and discussions involving it. The depends the how it's done, for a visual example.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1275263235767009323/1361125466009899159/ezgif-3-2ae6b5c38c.gif?ex=67fd9e5f&is=67fc4cdf&hm=fd613f8f6d9eb2aba8a758f46e6d1914f1e1104bad6a59f410539c38ee087292&=&width=531&height=531

Example 1 is LS.
Example 2 is SS/AP.

It depends on the motion and interaction with the surface being "jumped off of", you can clearly see the difference, I don't think I need to explain why one is and one isn't aight.

Idk and idc if this feat counts, but "jumping isn't LS" isn't correct and shouldn't be said like that.

1. I don't consider jumping in general to be LS. This is my opinion.

2. I wasn't aware of that thread until it was sent on this thread, so I simply posted my opinion on the matter without knowing that the wiki had some standard on it.

3. Apparently there isn't really a solid conclusion, and it just depends on context. Except, in this case, there is no visual. I asked if you had further info on what to do in that case. If you don't, then

 

[Dalesean027]

1. I don't consider jumping in general to be LS. This is my opinion.

Well again the thread ruled in favor of majority thinking it is still valid even with the neutral votes they said it depends on how the jump is performed, we've always accepted it before and still do so it should still be valid if done in the way chariot sent it. Opinions or not our standards have not changed to say they are no longer valid.

The rest though I suppose it can be a possibly at most then since we don't see the jump itself

 

[Chariot190]

1. I don't consider jumping in general to be LS. This is my opinion.

Well, it is. No different from throwing, pushing, ripping, etc. LS comes in many shapes and forms, just is what it is, LS is more the "force" statistic at this point if anything, lifting is just the most straightforwrad example of it.

2. I wasn't aware of that thread until it was sent on this thread, so I simply posted my opinion on the matter without knowing that the wiki had some standard on it.

Well, ya probably should before you start saying it doesn't count as an objectivity. We have standards, like don't go into threads and go "nope" if you aren't actually sure, it's misleading and only serves to confuse people given your mod status as people will take your opinion as fact when you word it as fact.

3. Apparently there isn't really a solid conclusion, and it just depends on context. Except, in this case, there is no visual. I asked if you had further info on what to do in that case. If you don't, then

I ain't OP dog, I ain't even a ReZERO goon, But, I'd assume a jump is a jump though, unless there's extra context like running into it. If dude did it from a stand still I'd assume it counts, as otherwise they probably would have worded it like "kicked off the ground" or something if that was the intent. Like occam's razor and all that.

 

[Agnaa]

@Dalesean027 @TheRustyOne I don't think this feat should be allowed, regardless of the other thread.

That's because this isn't directly calculating LS based on the speed and mass shown, it's deriving LS from destruction. We explicitly disallow deriving speed from destruction by using KE, and I don't see why this would be any different.

The kinetic energy an object was calculated to possess, in any way whatsoever, should not be considered as related through its speed. While the formula technically can be used to relate those values in both direction this is disregarded in practice. One reason for this is that fiction in general differentiates between the attack potency and the speed of a character. Another reason is that it returns unrealistic values, as even a Small City level+ punch would already have Relativistic+ speed. Out of similar reasons mass should also not be calculated from it.

If we say that mass and speed should not be derived from destruction using KE, why would we allow force to be derived from destruction?

 

[Chariot190]

We do that too though, all the time. Force is force, it's just a matter of how that force is exerted that decides if it's LS or not.

Can think of numerous accepted LS feats that get derived from destruction.
Like character A jumps, frags the ground. The force exerted to damage the ground is applied to LS.
Character B throws object, it does damage, that damage is applied onto throw force.

I could go on, I could even list examples, like Pochita or JJK who both have specifically a jumping feat involving destroying a building on leap. It's just a currently accepted standard.

Speed is speed, and we only really don't do that because media can be dumb as shit like with the Flash and it's excessively common. If a verse gives reason to think force can't be obtained from an impact or destruction, sure, whatever, but as the default? Idk chief seems like just ignoring a perfectly viable method for the **** of it.

 

[Agnaa]

We do that too though, all the time. Force is force, it's just a matter of how that force is exerted that decides if it's LS or not.

Can think of numerous accepted LS feats that get derived from destruction.
Like character A jumps, frags the ground. The force exerted to damage the ground is applied to LS.
Character B throws object, it does damage, that damage is applied onto throw force.

I could go on, I could even list examples, like Pochita or JJK who both have specifically a jumping feat involving destroying a building on leap. It's just a currently accepted standard.

Speed is speed, and we only really don't do that because media can be dumb as shit like with the Flash and it's excessively common. If a verse gives reason to think force can't be obtained from an impact or destruction, sure, whatever, but as the default? Idk chief seems like just ignoring a perfectly viable method for the **** of it.

We also explicitly don't allow mass to be derived from destruction through KE, so it ain't just speed.

Just because you can theoretically convert between the two, doesn't mean that it's an appropriate value to derive from that feat.

Your idea that speed is more distinct from AP, and that such a distinction isn't drawn between AP and LS is directly contradicted by our Lifting Strength page

While Striking Strength measures the energy of a character's physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which is determined by the amount of force a character can produce. This means that they measure two different physical quantities. Furthermore it can't be assumed that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it, if it didn't demonstrate the ability to produce that level of Lifting Strength. It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with.

Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately.

Unless you find it written down somewhere, I don't believe it's a "currently accepted standard". I think it's something which our actual written standards imply shouldn't be accepted, and was only accepted for a few calcs because people didn't think about it too hard.

 

[Chariot190]

We also explicitly don't allow mass to be derived from destruction through KE, so it ain't just speed.

Yeah that uh, nobody does that? Never seen a calc were mass is obtained from KE.
We're talking force. The mass still has to be found another way, usually just by calcing it directly.

But for these specific calcs, Mass isnt even relevant. If someone throws a 1kg ball or a 1000kg ball, but the impact force is like 1000000newtons or joules or whatever which you then divide by work, say their arm motion they did.

The mass doesnt matter because the force is the same between them, it doesnt factor in this equation to begin with, it can be skipped entirely.

Just because you can theoretically convert between the two, doesn't mean that it's an appropriate value to derive from that feat.

Well, people do it, and do it often, and it's been accepted constantly, dont know what to tell you beyond it's currently a viable method.

Your idea that speed is more distinct from AP, and that such a distinction isn't drawn between AP and LS is directly contradicted by our Lifting Strength page

And your idea isn't either. You're extrapolating it to cover things it doesn't actually say.

Unless you find it written down somewhere, I don't believe it's a "currently accepted standard". I think it's something which our actual written standards imply shouldn't be accepted, and was only accepted because people didn't think about it too hard.

Not how this works.
If i decided to calc someone's LS via torque of a blade, it doesnt need to be listed in detail for it to be a viable method.
That's what's happening here.

You're extrapolating one rule, extending it to cover basis that isn't described, detailed or mentioned, and then arguing the exact opposite.

It's YOU who needs to get the rule written out, not everyone else to get a currently implemented method in many verses to be written.

Personally, i think it should be case by case as with everything, some cases it is sus af and some it should be fine, context is key after all, but generally speaking, it's been allowed and is the basis of quite a few verses with no rule against it.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah that uh, nobody does that? Never seen a calc were mass is obtained from KE.
We're talking force. The mass still has to be found another way, usually just by calcing it directly.

But for these specific calcs, Mass isnt even relevant. If someone throws a 1kg ball or a 1000kg ball, but the impact force is like 1000000newtons or joules or whatever which you then divide by work, say their arm motion they did.

The mass doesnt matter because the force is the same between them, it doesnt factor in this equation to begin with, it can be skipped entirely.

It can't be done because it's explicitly disallowed.

If a ball made out of an unknown element is thrown at a building and causes 10^12 joules worth of destruction, we know that the building was 50 meters away and that it arrived in 0.2 seconds, then we could calculate the ball's mass.

And no matter how you try to hide the calculation, mass is still an integral part of LS. You can get greater destruction with the same mass by accelerating it more, but the mass is still a relevant factor there.

If a character throws a ball, why would we not be able to work back from the destruction caused to the speed or mass, but be able to work back towards the acceleration and mass, as long as we do those together?

Well, people do it, and do it often, and it's been accepted constantly, dont know what to tell you beyond it's currently a viable method.

And your idea isn't either. You're extrapolating it to cover things it doesn't actually say.

Not how this works.
If i decided to calc someone's LS via torque of a blade, it doesnt need to be listed in detail for it to be a viable method.
That's what's happening here.

You're extrapolating one rule, extending it to cover basis that isn't described, detailed or mentioned, and then arguing the exact opposite.

It's YOU who needs to get the rule written out, not everyone else to get a currently implemented method in many verses to be written.

Personally, i think it should be case by case as with everything, some cases it is sus af and some it should be fine, context is key after all, but generally speaking, it's been allowed and is the basis of quite a few verses with no rule against it.

The priority I hold for things like this is:

1. Things explicitly written in the rules.
2. Things explicitly agreed upon in a thread about that exact topic, but not written in the rules.
3. Things arguably implied by the rules.
4. A calc method being accepted, when no alternative has ever been provided.
5. A calc method being accepted, when someone has proposed a better method and had it accepted in other calcs.

But Dalesean disagrees with me on this, so ig it's worth making a thread for it.

 

[Zabazab]

I noticed that Garf’s calculation actually had Class E LS as well, so I was wondering if that would be usable for Tier 6-As or not?

there was an argument about whether Mezoreia's feat could scale to the God tiers, but if I am seeing things right, Reinhard's Moon feat is actually higher, so no longer need to argue it.

I'd like to provide the best argument I can for the god tiers scaling to Mezoreia's Class E magic (mana?) LS feat anyway, since it seems the moon jump is in contention between calc mods.

Between the two dragonhusks, Mezoreia is significantly weaker than Volcanica. This goes the same for VolcanicAl. When VolcanicAl used superweight-generating magic to try and crush a nerfed Reinhard, even crushing himself under the gravity in the process, Reinhard could still overcome it through sheer strength. And then yadayada NPES and whatnot, Nerfed Reinhard's LS > VolcanicAl's magic LS > Mezoreia's magic LS.