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Celestial_Pegasus

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Intro​


Before I can post the ap thread upgrading the characters, I have to fix/address the current scaling

How Strong is Megiddo​

Early on in the story we were lead to believe that Megiddo was on the level of the other 6 Kings for example, his fight with Lilywood ended in a draw (Chapter 120). However later on we learn he is in fact the weakest of the 6 Kings, but still on another level compared to other peerage holders (Chapter 417). This is again stated that he is one step inferior to the other 6 Kings (Chapter 631).

Despite that Megiddo is able to clear the 6 Kings Dungeon whose final boss is on the level of the 6 Kings (Chapter 1412), and each boss on each floor is stronger than Peak Count Ranks (Chapter 1015), hence why no one besides the 6 Kings have cleared a single floor, with their only a few exceptions as to who could possibly do it (Chapter 1584), Ozma and Pandora imo could clear a floor. Megiddo is again stated to be superior to other Count Ranks including Ozma (Chapter 797)


How much Stronger is Megiddo Compared to a Peak Count Rank​


The golems made based on the 6 Kings, gain the power to compete with the real 6 Kings after all 6 of them fuse (Chapter 1411), which means there is at least a 6x difference in strength between Megiddo and a Peak Count Rank

Addressing the Possible Issues with Megiddo Being Stronger than all Peak Count Ranks​


During the Final Arc, Shiro strengthened 200 of the High Ranking Gods to be as strong as some of the 6 Kings (Chapter 563). The War King Camp and Dragon King Camp could fight with the Gods strengthened by Shallow Vernal, basically due to skill (Chapter 833). Regardless of how skilled you're, it only goes so far, so there can't be that massive of a gap between Peak Count Ranks and Megiddo/6 Kings.

Ozma is stated to be stronger than Megiddo (Chapter 480), and oddly enough he is one of the few who hasn't challenged the 6 Kings Dungeon (Chapter 1413), so there is seems like there would be some room to argue with the statement that no Peak Count Rank has ever beaten the 6 Kings Dungeon, because Ozma hasn't challenged it. Yet 20,000 years ago when Ozma and Megiddo were equal in strength, Ozma stated he was near his growth limit (Chapter 1514), while Megiddo and the others would continue to grow. Logically with 20,000 years passing Megiddo should be stronger than Ozma.

Carmellia, who was a Peak Count Rank was able to one shot the God of Sky (Chapter 833), who has a high position even among the High Ranking Gods (Chapter 833). Pandora is the strongest Count Rank (Chapter 833), and Ozma can beat her, though they are relative (Chapter 799). Pandora is even able to overwhelm the High Ranking Gods (Chapter 833).

So how were Peak Count Ranks able to overwhelm and one shot people on the level of Megiddo or some of the 6 Kings? It's due to something I overlooked before, which someone else brought to my attention. It's stated that only the Gods magic power was boosted, and their combat experience is fatally limited, similar to Iris, they can't fully handle the power they were given (Chapter 623) When Iris was in a similar situation, she was far stronger than Agni, but because she couldn't handle her body, she could barely fight Agni by staying in one place with a barrier around her and blasting magic (Chapter 410). If we consider how magic power is used to achieve superhuman abilities, having a lot of it and not knowing how to control it explains all the discrepancies like Pandora overwhelming people who should be superior to her, they didn't know either how to handle their power to move out the way and avoid Pandora's attack, and they didn't amp their durability to 6 Kings level.

Megiddo Scaling​


All the characters who are scaling to or above Megiddo who are Count Rank, should have that scaling removed, because he is far above them.

6 Kings​


By concentrating all the powers of the Pleiades, which has 6 members who are Peak Count Rank, into one person, they can become as strong as the 6 Kings (Chapter 827). This is the 2nd such statement, you could assume it's just referring to Megiddo who is the weakest, but the plural "Kings" is being used, and then coupled that with Megiddo drawing against Lillywood, and the other statement about Gods being amped to some of the 6 Kings level, meaning they weren't amped to only one of their level, but multiple, I think logically while Megiddo is weaker than the rest, they should be relative, there isn't a massive difference.

Overall the difference between the 6 Kings and Peak Count Rank is somewhere around 6x.


Next i will get into the Hero Party which kind of ties into this whole topic.

Why The Hero Party Could Defeat a Peak Count Rank like Vier​


Back when the Hero Party (Neun, Laguna, Fors and Hapti) where travelling to defeat Vier, their strength was on the upper ranks of Viscount, almost Count Ranks (Chapter 1933). Vier is stated to have terrible fighting ability, with her offensive ability being near the bottom of Count Rank (Chapter 886). So Vier's ap was close to Neun and co, so they could tank her attacks and there were multiple of them fighting her.

In addition, Vier was stated to be in her worse condition when they fought her (Chapter 487). So they shouldn't scale to Vier in her normal condition.


Neun's Current Tiering​


Back in the main story, Neun and Lilia were relatively even, this being a Lilia who doesn't have 2 year time skip for the after stories, and the subsequent training she got from that, and became Mid tier Count Rank. So safe to say both were Low tier Count Ranks.

By the final arc Neun is stated to be Mid tier Count Rank, and through accelerated development was able to deal damage to a High Ranking God (Chapter 630). The High Ranking Gods were strengthened to the level of the 6 Kings, however as shown in the previous sections, that was only their magic power, and they don't know how to handle this power, so this feat isn't usable imo.

Neun got stronger, but to what extent? It also doesn't help we haven't seen her fight or gotten any statements about her strength since this, was the boost even permanent? So all we can say is she should be above Mid Tier Count Rank.
 
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So, from what I understood, Megiddo is the weakest of the Six Kings but the difference isn't that big. The difference between Peak Count ranks and Six Kings is around 6x huh....idk why but I think that's kinda iffy to me but meh fair enough since there are too many contradicting statements so ig this might be the best one. Everything else looks good.

On another note, when we get the calc, I'm curious to see how the Six Kings would turn out. I think they'd just be deeper into 4-A huh? Well, still curious to see it.
 
6x is still a oneshot gap, though honestly with Iris ap with her heart tool being on the level of the 6 Kings, you could maybe argue, that combined with 5 other Peak Count Ranks, explains why the Pleiades could get to 6 Kings level.

But even then I don't think the gap should be too massive. Especially if you look at what each floor boss of the 6 Kings Dungeon is stated to be, which is a bit stronger than a Peak, and there is the possibility Pandora and Ozma can beat them, and 6 floor boss combined is equal to the 6 Kings.
 
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That's the reason it's iffy for me. Cuz it's not just Peak Count ranks but Plieades, that includes Iris and Polaris. Polaris is, well, not a generic Peak Count rank of course and Iris has Six King level body. Especially the scan is from when Eul can get to her full power, which is far from now. Iris can just continue to grow till that. I think Alice said Iris should reach the king level soon as well. Honestly, a counter argument can be made that this is from a future where Iris has reached the peak of her body or is at least near it. So stacking up Iris and 5 other Peak Count ranks on top of eachother, Iris might as well be just carrying them. This kinda makes the 6x multiplier..... questionable...
 
Alice mentioned she adjusted Iris' body and removed some of the excess power she couldn't handle to enable her own growth after the mock battle with Isis.
————-Regarding Iris’ body, I’ve made some adjustments to it. I dropped some of your basic abilities that you weren’t even able to make use, and instead, adjusted it so that it can “grow” with training in the future.

————-Fumu, I see…… Which means, it would be that, right? It would be up to me how much stronger I can be from here on out.

————-That’s right. Incidentally, Iris’ current power is just about to reach peak Count-rank…… I’m not going to wait in this place and kindly wait for you to reach my level, you know? Stop playing around and doing nothing, and quickly catch up with me…… Partner.
~chapter 787
I do understand where you're coming from and that it does feel iffy still.
 
I always interpreted that as sealing it away till she can properly learn to control it rather than outright remove it. I mean, she for sure isn't reaching Six King level by herself.
 
Narratively Iris is going to be 6 Kings level one day imo, and the Eul statement was made in the future, so yea I can see where it would seem iffy.

There is still the other angle though, where the golems in the 6 Kings Dungeon are "a bit" stronger than a Peak, and Ozma and Pandora are arguably on their level, meaning 6 Ozma's=1 6 king.

"A bit" isn't a definitively number, but it does imply a decent gap, so instead of 6x, it's probably more like far above 6x imo. Certainly nowhere near a billion or infinite as originally thought
 
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The billion thing was legit stated....but where in the hell did infinite came from? 😭
But yeah, it's should be far more than 6x especially since Luminax and CotE are much superior to other golems. Each golem is a duke rank, so stronger than normal peak count ranks, Ozma, the strongest Duke rank and Pandora could clear a floor. So let's take Megiddo golem = Ozma, 4 Duke ranks and Elcrester(hope the spelling is somewhat understandable), Luminax and CoeT being stronger than Duke ranks....more than 6x certainly, but how much clearly? Don't know lol. Can't rule out that Duke ranks are stronger than regular Peak Count ranks.
 
I just remembered this statement

[…Ummm, Kaito-san? We couldn’t understand what Roze-sama was saying… but what in the world is that thing with a bizarre magic power?]
[An abyssal jester emerging from the shadows. This dark magic power, possessing jet-black presence as if it was materialized despair… Somehow, it reminds me of the King of Empty Illusions.]
[Ah, Amel-san got it right. Currently behind Roze-san is Luminax, the Golem modeled after Alice. I’ve heard it’s difficult to operate those Golems out of the Six Kings Dungeon though…]
According to Roze-san, it takes a lot of work to operate the Six King Golem outside of the dungeon. They apparently prepared a lot, applying various Special Magic and Barrier Magic to their own body…
(Unnn, it was rough~~ It took Roze about 10 days to prepare the magic techniques to bring out Luminax just like this time. However, Roze can only take it out for one day.)

[That certainly is inefficient. Well, that just shows how powerful it is… Arehh? Lilia-san, it just occurred to me… but Luminax possesses vast amounts of magic power, right?]

[Yes, when it was in the shadows, I couldn’t sense it at all, but it is now emanating tremendous magic power.]

[…This magic power, couldn’t those in the ceremony sense it too?]

A Six King Golem is technically considered a Peak Count-rank… but as it possesses an exceptionally high amount of magic power, the current Duke-ranks, with a few exceptions, are generally unable to contend against it.

That especially goes with Luminax, as with Alice frequent patches, it had ended up becoming the strongest Golem aside from Cross of the End’s Final Form.-Chapter 1584

Confirms what I thought, only a few exceptions among the Duke Ranks can beat a 6 Kings Golem, which obviously refers to Ozma and Pandora, though there being a few exceptions seems to imply more people can do it besides them, otherwise it would just mention a couple. I suppose Iris would fit in there, which would make sense.

Luminax would scale above the generic Golem, and then a combo of all the golems equals a King, certainly far move 6x makes sense.
 
Perfectly goes with what I said. How many Duke ranks there even are? Not counting the death king faction, 2 members from each camp. Total 10, I think Iris isn't a Duke rank yet? I forgot lol. I think even if we only count Pandora and Ozma, pretty sure they'd pass as "few", I mean, there are only 10 official Duke ranks.
 
From what I remember since the Death King camp is small only Iris was upped to Duke Rank, but it was basically said/implied Polaris would be upped next time.

Agni and Frea frequently challenge the dungeon, and train together, but you have to wait like 5 years before you can redo the dungeon, so if we assume the statement that nobody among the Peaks could clear a floor referred to 5 years ago, Current Agni and Frea who are constantly training, probably are now capable of it.

Maybe we could also take Agni's rivalry with Pandora into consideration there as well, while Pandora is undoubtably stronger, Current Agni may be somewhat relative to her, which explains the statement of a few Dukes being able to clear a floor; Ozma, Pandora, Agni, Iris, and Frea.
 
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Agni and Frea train together, with Frea even calling Agni a worthy rival (Chapter 819), albeit this is in the future when Isis has 48 subordinates, contrasted to the current where its still 6. However even at the current time its stated Frea goes to the War King coliseum when she wants a mock battle (Chapter 1214), where Agni obvious is, so I think it applies currently as well.

We can also see the gap between a normal Duke like Fafnir, and Frea, who can scatter Farnir's full power attacks with just a roar (Chapter 922) or a basic fire ball. Pretty much a one shot gap imo.

Also forgot about Carmellia who is now also a Duke and is stated to have the highest ap excluding Pandora from memory, among Peaks at the time. With her personality, she would never challenge the 6 Kings dungeon either, so yea I think a few people are indeed capable of beating a normal 6 Kings Golem.
 
Been reading through the post and to add something, Ozma beat the sealed Megiddo was like, tens of thousands of years ago, so things changed, but also the amount of Magic power doesn't really equal strength since they need skills to control them efficiently, so that tracks too

All in all I agree with this
 
About time we get some staff here.

The discussion between supporters has concluded, it has been determined that the 6 Kings are far above 6x stronger than a Peak Count Rank, where only a few Duke Ranks can beat a degraded copy of the 6 Kings, the gap between those few Dukes and a normal Duke being a one shot gap, and 6 of the degraded copy of the 6 Kings, combined together is equal to the real 6 Kings, who are relative to each other, including Megiddo who is the weakest among them.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Dereck03
 
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I'd rather not be @ because I'm actually reading this novel and evualuating it will spoil me.
URoNsnf.png
 
Ah, didn't think you would start so quickly.

But yea wouldn't want to ruin the surprises, it's part of the fun.

Living up to your username
 
Given we have 1 staff accepting this, and this was a scaling thread, which won't change much, except how the characters scale to each other, idk if 1 staff accepting this, plus my own obvious approval is enough to pass this?

Regardless this thread really doesn't matter until the ap revisions thread passes, which is held up by a single calc not being evaluated.

Guess I will just see if any other staff will show up on their own for a while, since there is no rush to pass.
 
Normally 1 staff is enough, seems Dalesean only accepts GPE though so would make sense to ask for other opinions, 8-A would just be a waste of time, since they were going to scale to 7-B.
 
should we finish the UES crt first? Because Kaori making Tsunami can be scaled to her stats if UES is accepted
 
@Legacy30 Already posted all the evidence for UES, if you guys want to compile that and post it as a CRT, go ahead, if it passes just put all that into a blog. Doesn't require much effort on your part.

Just editing the profiles for the peerage holder/abilities edits is going to take me some time whenever it passes, and honestly will probably go for the speed thread next, whenever my Polaris calc is accepted.....
 
@Legacy30 Already posted all the evidence for UES, if you guys want to compile that and post it as a CRT, go ahead, if it passes just put all that into a blog. Doesn't require much effort on your part.

Just editing the profiles for the peerage holder/abilities edits is going to take me some time whenever it passes, and honestly will probably go for the speed thread next, whenever my Polaris calc is accepted.....
Your wish is my command
 
This thread is to fix the scaling, so don't expect a non-supporter to have deep knowledge of it. This thread ultimately doesn't come into effect until the ap thread passes.

This should be enough support to apply this later.
 
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