Naruto : speed of light removal

[HelloThere1089]

Yeaaaaaa add me to the disagree pile as well



This is a classic case of Fallacy of Composition, it's the idea that one thing being invalid means everything else must be invalid without any exceptions which isn't true

This issue isn't exclusive to Naruto Databooks​

You can see these types of statements exist in the manga and it will exist in other Battle Shonen media as well as non Japanese media, that's honestly kinda how literature in general works, it's not a case where "hey this one thing is an isolated case of hyperboles and contain nothing but hyperboles" that's just not true, but when we do deal these things that's where human critical thinking comes in, we use discretion to separate literal from non literal instead of generalizing the whole thing to be invalid, surely you don't think the height statements from the databooks that we use for our calcs also need to go? if the answer is no that is cherrypicking

Now let's talk about the scan you sent, It's not hard to see how you just cherrypicked an old, blurry and poorly translated scan, that gets passed around online for the sake of wank

The Translation isn't even correct​

A quick scan from chatgpt and DeepL reveals to us that the one beside the character's say 快如電光 (kuài rú diàn guāng) literally means “as fast as electric light” or “fast like lightning”, this is a common Chinese idiom meaning “extremely fast.”
To make matters worse the scan is in Chinese, you should try to find the Japanese versions of them to get the most accurate raws, otherwise it is to be dismissed.

The official translations (first fanbook pg50) reflect the raws to be much better by using the simile-esque speech patterns instead of saying the Anbu are legit light speed, it would be an issue if they were but if it says "hey these people are so fast just like light / lightninng" it simply becomes a tool to hype up the anbu because lightning speeds are considered insanely fast (to a non powerscaler) it becomes a commonly used phrase in their language resulting in it making an appearance here, that's it.

Discussion Rule​

You are violating our discussion rules by lumping them all in together when it is explicitly stated not to lump em together and to treat them in a case by case basis. (See my point regarding discretion again) You can argue that you only wanna generalize a particular set of statements but that's circling back and doing the same thing in a disguised manner


A lightning styled attack that is light speed, not sure what you think is confusing here but composition is separate from statistics, we don't cap every shinobi to the speed of IRL Ninjas so we won't cap Kirin under the same basis, the argument only stands if Kirin is let's say a natural lightning instead of the supernatural kind and we have had this discussion many times in the last thread, those arguments got consistently rejected by staff you are free to check them out here

The CRT to end all CRTs: Naruto Revision (Kir-in)

Doodoo

vsbattles.com

Naturally the "erm this is literally just lightning" point is dismissed solely based on the fact that OP has not brought up new points in regards to this specific sub topic, we are not going to have this same discussion over and over again, especially for the same rehashed arguments from last time

The manga isn't contradicted simple, you think it is because you see lightning speed statements but you don't look deeper or care to acknowledge that "hey theyre not talking about kirin, theyre talking about what they think is gonna come out for a jutsu he has never seen simply based on deductions he made using in-the-moment observations and that he's making a general statement towards lightning", let's say in a battle shonen, a planet is to be formed someone can infer that'll be earth sized because typically planets would be in this size ballpark, that would not mean this planet can not go beyond this (as long as explicit statements exist), so this argument does not work unless A) it cannot be extraordinary (debunked) B) you have a direct statement in reference to said extraordinary object instead of the general thing of the same nature (which as we can clearly read does not happen here)


None of these deadass matter

Light Fang does not rely on "hey its a light beam and acts like one" it's accepted as light speed because it stated to be at that speed, you don't need all that mental gymnastics when something is confirmed to be at a specific speed
If it was a tornado attack stated to be light speed it would be light speed outright, no buts or ifs

"but it's secondary canon" doesn't matter, it's accepted as usable as long as the source material isn't contradicted and the arguments regarding exaggeration were already thrashed so I won't bother repeat on that

chuckled to this one

Holy yap. I guess I disagree with the Kirin proposal now as well

 

[Damage3245]

Please counter the arguments against the OP before announcing agreement (They haven't addressed even 1/10th of it)

Either do that or go neutral, I don't want us to write essays for you to just gloss over them and hit em with a greenlight

Nobody is required to write out whole counter-arguments for you.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Nobody is required to write out whole counter-arguments for you.

Take down your vote then

you don't HAVE to swap bibles with us but if you wanna keep that disagree vote placed in you need to engage with main rebuttals at the bare minimum, otherwise it's an abuse of authority

 

[Damage3245]

Since when has that been a rule? That staff members giving evaluating votes on a topic need to address all of the counter-arguments against the OP?

 

[Syncornize]

chuckled to this one

Leaving aside the fact that I have already answered much of this, several times over. The concept of “I don't answer everything because I think the points I have already explained are better” seems difficult to understand, but I'm beginning to wonder if reading it is too. I would copy the GIF, but I can't be bothered, so just pretend it's there.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Since when has that been a rule? That staff members giving evaluating votes on a topic need to address all of the counter-arguments against the OP?

Idk man, I personally think it's absolutely INSANE to have a mountain of arguments and evidence debunking something across 2 threads and have ADMINS completely ignore all of it. Especially when it's not even like the OP addressed the argument and yall just agreed with him, the guy literally ignored everything that was said. The thread doesn't even make any new arguments it just recycled the same old nothingburgers that have been debunked over and over and over again.

Like nobody is forcing you to debate anyone but nobody is forcing you to vote either.

 

[HelloThere1089]

 

[Arkenis]

how has this topic not been banned or something? This gotta be the 7th crt I've seen about Kirin

 

[Qawsedf234]

Please counter the arguments against the OP

You typically only make counterarguments if you disagree with something. I didn't disagree with the OP's take (well other than the guidebook statements that are always brought up), unlike with the Light-Fang. EDIT: Your comment was also asking to address counter-proposals that wasn't made at the time of the comment, so I'll read through your stuff.

Either do that or go neutral,

No?

you need to engage with main rebuttals at the bare minimum, otherwise it's an abuse of authority

Since when has that been a rule?

The only hard rule about Staff Votes is that you have to remain unbiased and be open to changes when considering the evidence presented

It is important to remember that all staff members, regardless of their rank, have a responsibility to act in the best interests of each verse by prioritizing accuracy and quality above personal preferences or biases. Staff members should strive to approach the evaluation of content revision threads with an open mind and a willingness to consider the perspectives of others.

Engaging isn't required, but is usually encouraged to broaden perspectives.

how has this topic not been banned or something?

A discussion rule has never been made. If one isn't actively sought out, then it'll always be open to changes.

 

[Damage3245]

The only hard rule about Staff Votes is that you have to remain unbiased and be open to changes when considering the evidence presented
Engaging isn't required, but is usually encouraged to broaden perspectives.

Okay. I will be sure to follow along with any further posts on the thread in case they will change my mind.

 

[GTsek]

There is no new argument here that has not already been addressed and refuted in previous CRTs, so I disagree. When he use an argument that Naruto Databooks have exaggerated statements (and basically cherry picking the poorly translated Anbus statement) and tries to invalidate something based on that, he is basically wanting the databooks to be entirely discredited and invalidated. Because if this argument is accepted, it literally means that none of the information in the guides are valid, he would need to make a specific CRT for that.

 

[Syncornize]

Please counter the arguments against the OP before announcing agreement (They haven't addressed even 1/10th of it)

Either do that or go neutral, I don't want us to write essays for you to just gloss over them and hit em with a greenlight

I think this is the first time I’ve seen a user beg a staff member to go against the OP. Still, even if they didn’t accept, I’d be fine with it. I accept that I don’t have correct opinions

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Okay. I will be sure to follow along with any further posts on the thread in case they will change my mind.

Honestly this seems unfair, you disagreed with the previous thread about lightspeed where all this arguments were debunked, other staff agreed and that thread was approved, to be unbiased would be to just close this right away with the reason of all this was previously rejected.

 

[Syncornize]

You typically only make counterarguments if you disagree with something. I didn't disagree with the OP's take (well other than the guidebook statements that are always brought up), unlike with the Light-Fang. EDIT: Your comment was also asking to address counter-proposals that wasn't made at the time of the comment, so I'll read through your stuff.

for the Light Fang, I agree with what you told me

 

[Kaydee1648]

Nobody is required to write out whole counter-arguments for you.

Damage, no one is saying that a staff must meet some kind of total or predefined requirement before they’re allowed to give input. That’s not the issue here. The concern lies in the fact that they’re (you inclusive) expressing agreement with a premise that has already been thoroughly refuted, not just casually dismissed, but systematically broken down to the point where the OP has no solid ground left for a rebuttal. To even make this worse, the OP continues to ignore the counterarguments that were presented and even openly acknowledges that they’re choosing to do so.
when you then say you agree with such a stance, it comes across as if you’re disregarding all the effort, logic, time, and evidence that went into the debunking. It implies that those counterarguments are unsubstantial or irrelevant, even though they have already dismantled the original claim.

 

[Syncornize]

Actually, only some of my points were mentioned earlier

 

[DavidTPPM]

The only hard rule about Staff Votes is that you have to remain unbiased and be open to changes when considering the evidence presented

Okay from an unbiased perspective how does this thread actually address what was said in the thread that got this rating accepted to begin with?

Because from an unbiased perspective this to me just looks like someone going "durr everything I don't like is a hyperbole" without actually proposing any new evidence or arguments.

Like I'm sorry this is INSANELY frustrating. We are looking at a thread which doesn't address 90% of the arguments made when proposing the current rating and an OP who refuses to engage with the people debunking them in the replies with the exception of frankly ridiculous cherry-picking. Mind you the 10% of arguments that the thread does actually try to address is just recycling arguments made and debunked in the previous thread as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Okay from an unbiased perspective how does this thread actually address what was said in the thread that got this rating accepted to begin with?

I still have to read through both, like I said in my edit:

EDIT: Your comment was also asking to address counter-proposals that wasn't made at the time of the comment, so I'll read through your stuff.

While I know of the series, that doesn't mean I know of every CRT that's been done on Naruto.

 

[Syncornize]

Okay from an unbiased perspective how does this thread actually address what was said in the thread that got this rating accepted to begin with?

Because from an unbiased perspective this to me just looks like someone going "durr everything I don't like is a hyperbole" without actually proposing any new evidence or arguments.

Like I'm sorry this is INSANELY frustrating. We are looking at a thread which doesn't address 90% of the arguments made when proposing the current rating and an OP who refuses to engage with the people debunking them in the replies with the exception of frankly ridiculous cherry-picking. Mind you the 10% of arguments that the thread does actually try to address is just recycling arguments made and debunked in the previous thread as well.

If you find an online discussion forum frustrating, I can understand certain ways of approaching messages

 

[Arkenis]

If you find an online discussion forum frustrating, I can understand certain ways of approaching messages

I think its more that its been a topic discussed over what I believe is 4yrs now and the arguments against and for it usually don't change so your post and the way its been handled in the past become tiresome.

 

[Damage3245]

I think its more that its been a topic discussed over what I believe is 4yrs now and the arguments against and for it usually don't change so your post and the way its been handled in the past become tiresome.

Aye, I share those same frustrations tbh.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Not to mention if the CRT is poorly argued and the mods accept it, a reversal CRT will easily be accepted and then you'd have to edit the pages all over again. This is not doing favors for anyone.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Since when has that been a rule? That staff members giving evaluating votes on a topic need to address all of the counter-arguments against the OP?

nobody said it's a hard boiled rule
nobody said you have to tackle EVERYTHING
quit the strawmanning

"Yeah it got countered but im gonna vote wherever I want" is literal power abuse and showing dishonesty in broad day light

I think this is the first time I’ve seen a user beg a staff member to go against the OP. Still, even if they didn’t accept, I’d be fine with it. I accept that I don’t have correct opinions

I did not do this even once? I didn't ask them to disagree with your thread, I asked them to refrain from agreeing until the counterarguments have been responded to because their votes have weight, clearly you have no desire to defend your repetitive arguments so it falls onto them to respond if they wanna keep their votes in good faith

 

[Syncornize]

I think its more that its been a topic discussed over what I believe is 4yrs now and the arguments against and for it usually don't change so your post and the way its been handled in the past become tiresome.

doesnt justify attacking me or, as he usually says, “pointing the finger” at me, which can already be seen in the first messages.

 

[Samlex1234]

Okay from an unbiased perspective how does this thread actually address what was said in the thread that got this rating accepted to begin with?

Because from an unbiased perspective this to me just looks like someone going "durr everything I don't like is a hyperbole" without actually proposing any new evidence or arguments.

Like I'm sorry this is INSANELY frustrating. We are looking at a thread which doesn't address 90% of the arguments made when proposing the current rating and an OP who refuses to engage with the people debunking them in the replies with the exception of frankly ridiculous cherry-picking. Mind you the 10% of arguments that the thread does actually try to address is just recycling arguments made and debunked in the previous thread as well.

This CRT thoroughly addressed every counter-argument in detail. Not only was Zetsu an unreliable narrator who had never witnessed Kirin firsthand or understood its complete mechanics, but there are also three Word-of-God statements that directly contradict his hypothesis about the jutsu.
Even if Zetsu’s assumption about lightning were correct, it still wouldn’t disprove Kirin itself, since the nature of the lightning is altered through chakra shaping and controlling it. Sasuke didn’t just summon lightning, he shaped, guided, and directed it toward his target with precision. So why would Zetsu, who had never seen Kirin before, have any authority to speak on its speed?

We have 3 word of god statements no it is not an hyperbole.

 

[Damage3245]

nobody said it's a hard boiled rule
nobody said you have to tackle EVERYTHING
quit the strawmanning

"Yeah it got countered but im gonna vote wherever I want" is literal power abuse and showing dishonesty in broad day light

I'm not voting out of spite or a desire to be contrarian. I've read the counter-arguments; I still think that the evidence supporting Kirin not being lightspeed is stronger than the evidence supporting it being lightspeed. I can understand why people support the other side though; I could even go for a possibly rating for it. But I haven't been covninced that a solid rating for it is the most appropriate.

 

[Syncornize]

This CRT thoroughly addressed every counter-argument in detail. Not only was Zetsu an unreliable narrator who had never witnessed Kirin firsthand or understood its complete mechanics, but there are also three Word-of-God statements that directly contradict his hypothesis about the jutsu.
Even if Zetsu’s assumption about lightning were correct, it still wouldn’t disprove Kirin itself, since the nature of the lightning is altered through chakra shaping and controlling it. Sasuke didn’t just summon lightning, he shaped, guided, and directed it toward his target with precision. So why would Zetsu, who had never seen Kirin before, have any authority to speak on its speed?

Actually, I explained these things....

 

[Billybobjoe321]

In fact, I don't see any arguments against this, having mentioned it. For me, it can be used in this case. The speed of lightning is variable. What the wiki uses is a standard average. The calc. is within the “realm” of possibility.

Except it kind of isn’t. the speed the calc gets, 2.7744e6 m/s, is higher than the max recorded speed of lightning, not just the average. So the calc you use to support kirin being lightning speed, actually has it faster.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'm not voting out of spite or a desire to be contrarian. I've read the counter-arguments; I still think that the evidence supporting Kirin not being lightspeed is stronger than the evidence supporting it being lightspeed. I can understand why people support the other side though; I could even go for a possibly rating for it. But I haven't been covninced that a solid rating for it is the most appropriate.

you can literally vote for making all of naruto wall level and just duck behind the convenient excuse of "uh huh opps convinced me better" while ignoring any argument from the pro sides

you're not helping the bad reputation the wiki has for being biased by actively showing bias in evaluations, when you're explicitly instructed not to do that in the discussion rules
if you wanna engage in good faith, you would at the bare minimum counter the main points people made against the OP

 

[M3X_2.0]

Agree with Kirin but not Light Fang.

The criteria doesn’t matter since the beam is lightspeed via a clear, literal statement. It could bend and do unrealistic things and it wouldn’t matter.

The Databook being secondary canon is irrelevant, absolutely nothing contradicts it and your argument is association fallacy. From out fallacies page:

9. Association fallacy​

This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.

Example: "Many Naruto ninjas use genjutsu. Therefore Gai knows genjutsu as well."

While this could be possible, there is no confirmation, and merely because other ninjas know it doesn't mean he does.

Just because there are some wacky statements in there it doesn’t mean everything is useless and also wrong.

 

[MrTayman616]

If Kirin is called lightning and manga acts like it is, while the databook specifically states it's light speed, isn't it fine to just say "Lightning speed, possibly Speed of Light" or something like that?

Maybe i got it wrong? Not really close with Naruto scaling :d

 

[Damage3245]

you can literally vote for making all of naruto wall level and just duck behind the convenient excuse of "uh huh opps convinced me better" while ignoring any argument from the pro sides

you're not helping the bad reputation the wiki has for being biased by actively showing bias in evaluations, when you're explicitly instructed not to do that in the discussion rules
if you wanna engage in good faith, you would at the bare minimum counter the main points people made against the OP

Well, I'm sorry that it comes across that way - but I know it won't do any good to just tell you "I'm not being biased here." If you don't believe me, then there's not much point discussing it within this thread at least.

One of the main counter-arguments that I've seen is that Zetsu is an unreliable narrator - but I do not think that is the case. If Zetsu's explanation was contradicted by what he sees when the technique actually executes, why doesn't he think "I was wrong about it..." or "That was far faster than I expected..." Zetsu's lines aren't just invented in a vacuum; they're Kishimoto's way of conveying information to readers in the manga itself. There's not a lot of reason of having a character feed false informaiton to the readers unless that's going to be highlighted or contradicted on-screen. The explanation we're given in the manga (the Primary Canon) trumps the statements we get in the databooks (the Secondary Canon), as far as I can tell based on our standards. You may disagree with my evaluation; but I'm not basing my viewpoint solely on a desire for a specific predetirmined rating or downgrade.

If Kirin is called lightning and manga acts like it is, while the databook specifically states it's light speed, isn't it fine to just say "Lightning speed, possibly Speed of Light" or something like that?

Maybe i got it wrong? Not really close with Naruto scaling :d

That is indeed an option for us.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

If Kirin is called lightning and manga acts like it is, while the databook specifically states it's light speed, isn't it fine to just say "Lightning speed, possibly Speed of Light" or something like that?

Maybe i got it wrong? Not really close with Naruto scaling :d

But the problem is, kirin is only just comprised of lightning. It is specifically guided down by sasuke using his chakra. It is also calced as being faster than lightning and kirin is portrayed to be much faster than characters who are already relative or faster than lightning

 

[M3X_2.0]

I don’t understand what’s so hard about Kirin tbh. Zetsu spent pages explaining what is it and even gave us a timeframe to work with.

This happened in the manga which is the primary canon. And Zetsu is far from an unreliable narrator, he was never portrayed as such. It’s just Kishimoto explaining the technique since he doesn’t use some external narrator.

 

[Godernet]

I disagree overall,

For Kirin, I have a couple of comments,

Spoiler: Lightning in Naruto

Lightning speed jutsu are already accepted to exist based on how Shinobi study natural phenomena intently to make as close to 1 to 1 replicas of the elements they tranmute from chakra as possible, and yet they are used commonly and never treated as some avoidably fast classification of jutsu.

Lightning Bolts have also been stated in the Databooks to be "difficult to dodge", in reference to Kakashi's capacity to do so against Kakazu's False Darkness, yet if we are taking Zetsu's statement at face value, lightning should be completely impossible to avoid.

The Lore behind Kakashi's Raikiri was his capacity to cut a bolt of lightning in half before it could touch the ground, a feat that while not visually shown in the manga even at its least charitable should still be far more impressive from a far younger Kakashi than what Zetsu would be implying Itachi would be incapable of doing, avoiding Kirin with his 3T Sharingan's analytical prediction telling him when Sasuke will launch several moves ahead of time, with the bolt being more than a Kilometer away.

Spoiler: Zetsu

Zetsu is making a general hypothesis of what a jutsu he has never seen before will be like based on an observation of its composition as lightning alone, not something that should be relied on as factual evidence.

Not to mention Zetsu, for most of this fight, is constantly making comments of shock and confusion that are contradictory to his own knowledge of what's going on, for what I can only assume is Kishi intending to portray Sasuke as surpassing expectations every time he one-ups what Itachi or Zetsu thinks he's capable of, only to unveil that the entire fight was perfectly staged by Itachi to the knowledge of everyone present but him, placing everyone reading in the same "your reality is based on your own understanding of your surroundings and knowledge" mentality that he forced Sasuke to combat in this fight and in the aftermath. (Examples: Lightning is completely undodgable, yet he is the secret child of Kaguya, who to the surprise of no one should surpass every Lightning and Light Speed jutsu in the series quite comfortably, or Obito and Zetsu saying they knew the entire truth about Itachi, with Obito demonstrating knowledge of Itachi's intentions during to throw the fight and his illness by telling this to Sasuke, yet throughout the fight Zetsu acted as if this was all new knowledge to him, and an actual fight that either side could lose despite being completely hidden and just talking to himself the entire fight, weird writing choice for this fight honestly.)

Spoiler: Hyperbolic Databooks

While it is absolutely true that some of the databook does contain hyperbolic statements, quite a vast majority of it is factual information taken to extreme levels of misconceptions due to faulty fan translations, from people that aren't really doing it for the intent of 1 to 1 accuracy, and more for rough translations.

That's why it's important when using Naruto databook entries to evaluate the translation by their raw kanji, preferably by our translation helpers for accuracy (Lex showed how this is important with the mistranslated statement in the OP about Anbu being Light Speed in a Databook Entry that never even involved speed to begin with.)

With the Naruto I'm less inclined to believe this is hyperbole in a verse with multiple Sub-Rel feats by characters weaker than the Akatsuki, lightning being pretty regularly used by lesser characters, more Light Speed Jutsu being introduced in the very next arcs, Mifune's Iaido, Mabui's Transportation, Light Fang, etc, and similar statements in reference to Kirin being LS have been made three separate times as was discussed in the previous thread.

The statements are far more contextually consistent with the story's progression of speed via its calcs, in-universe lore, and statements of lightning being fast but not too fast to avoid, yet Kirin is completely undodgable.

So yeah, firmly disagree with the thread. I don't think it tackles the reasoning from the previous thread as to why Kirin is Light Speed in the first place.

 

[LordTracer]

Omfg someone make a discussion rule against this already .

Do we not already have a Light Fang discussion rule? I swear we made one ages ago.

 

[Syncornize]

Do we not already have a Light Fang discussion rule? I swear we made one ages ago.

yeah, MB

 

[HelloThere1089]

Do we not already have a Light Fang discussion rule? I swear we made one ages ago.

We don't currently. It needs to be made.

 

[Syncornize]

We don't currently. It needs to be made.

Yeah, if I have time, I can suggest it if no one else wants to.

 

[Syncornize]

I’d like to bring up this point again, along with the last point made by Damage, which makes a lot of sense.

Regardless of whether what Zetsu states is reliable or not (even though I’ve already addressed this), he’s considering hypersonic timeframe (1/1000 s or 0,001 s) as fast, in particular, he agrees with Sasuke’s statement that this is something that cannot be dodged or blocked. Even taking the kirin's speed as >SOL, for absurd, he's still stating that generally, dodging within that timeframe is impossible. We have Zetsu's profile at sub-rel, yet an hypersonic timeframe is "unavoidable", and something "faster than sound" is fast.