Upgrade Sinners and Shades (GENSHIN IMPACT)

[Furina003]

[TIER H3A — SHADES, SOVEREIGN, DAN SINNERS]
​

Surtalogi is said to have the ability to envelop the entire universe with abyssal energy. As Surtalogi explains, tree are analogous to civilisation, forest are analogous to the universe, and the Genshin universe itself has been described as infinite. In addition, the disaster 500 years ago caused by the sinners was powerful enough to turn the universe upside down. Surtalogi is also considered a cosmic calamity by other civilisations in the universe.

Not only that, Surtalogi is also referred to as a Higher Being and a transcendent being. Skirk explains that Surtalogi has travelled throughout the universe in search of a worthy opponent.
That is:
⦁ Weapons whose energy comes from entire star systems, gods and the strongest warriors from billions of creatures. However, all of that was easily defeated by Surtalogi without using his full power. Surtalogi also that it possessed such terrifying and absolute power that it was incomprehensible, a power called "Higher Power". Skirk even explained to the traveller that this power was capable of challenging "the Higher Dimensional".

From all that has been explained, Surtalogi should be in tier H3A or even higher, because its power is great enough to challenge the "Higher Dimensional" and throw an abyss throughout the infinite universe, so that it is considered a cosmic calamity and one of the causes of the disaster 500 years ago that was able to turn the universe upside down. However, for now, I propose a temporary placement in H3A (High Universe) for The Sinners, while discussions regarding higher tiers will be conducted in a separate CRT.
​

• SHADES​

As gods who rule the world of Teyvat, the Shades should have a rank equivalent to that of the Sinners.
This is reinforced by the fact that one of the Sinners, Rhinedottir, merged with Naberius (one of the Shades) and became part of the Shades themselves, demonstrating the equality of power between the two.
​

• DRAGON SOVEREIGN​

The Dragon Sovereigns also deserve additional scaling, as they fought for 40 years against the Heavenly Principles, placing them on the same cosmic level as, or close to, other high-level entities.
​

HIGHER DIMENSIONAL EXISTENCE (4D)
EDIT: (this also Reasoning for Low 2-C Shades)​

As has been discussed and accepted, Istaroth possesses temporal omnipresence, for Istaroth is all Time itself, based on the classification standards used [here]. The statement that an entity is the whole concept of time means that it is a character that embodies or constitutes a literal time/spacetime continuum (the whole of the past, present, and future in 3-dimensional space) on a universal scale. It can also be considered for Higher Dimensional Existence (4-D). Thus, Istaroth fulfils the criteria for Higher-Dimensional Existence (4D) because Istaroth is Time itself and all of Time. All Shades will receive the same scaling, because:
They are equal entities created from the shadow of the Primordial One itself. Thus, their existential status is at the same dimensional level as Istaroth, namely 4D.
​

Furthermore, the world of the gods is also described as being higher than the human world, and the curse of Ronova is said to be higher than reality. The Primordial One is also described as a more transcendent being, and the Shades are depicted as having more concrete form and colour than human.

Meanwhile, the human world is nothing but trivial to them.
For example:
⦁ Rhinedottir created life solely for experimentation, treating her creations as objects in a lower plane of existence.
⦁ Istaroth ‘adds history just to fill her spare time, treating the flow of time (which is absolute for humans) as something she can easily change.
⦁ Venti also states that ‘as the author of the world's story, all creatures are meaningless to Istaroth, confirming the difference in the level of reality between human existence and the existence of the Shades.

EDIT: ADDITIONAL REASONING FOR L2C SHADES​

Law and destiny are the authority of the heavenly principles. If we discuss the scope of this authority, it is clear that the authority of the heavenly principles applies not only to Teyvat, because the law is universal. Mundana music is a system of destiny heavenly principles that is stated to govern everything in the universe including the concept of time itself. This alone proves that the authority of the heavenly principles is universal. Even the chaos of Mundana music can destroy the universe itself. The Primordial One is the master of Mundana music. Time and space are clearly concepts, and the Shades are concepts themselves and have power over them. Istaroth also can write the story of the world and can change the timeline.

The Dragon Sovereigns can also obtain scaling to the level of Limited dimension manipulation, as they fought directly with the Shades for 40 years. Battles equivalent to higher-dimensional beings indicate that the Dragon Sovereigns have sufficient levels of Power to fight higher-dimensional beings.

Conclusion
⦁ Istaroth is ‘Time itself’ and qualifies as a Higher-Dimensional Existence (4D) and Attack Potency L2C
⦁ Shades are equivalent to Istaroth and will also attain 4D existence and Attack Potency L2C
⦁ Sovereign Dragons have also fought Shades for 40 years and qualify for scaling to Limited dimension manipulation and Attack Potency L2c

That's all for now, thank you

FOR TIER H3A
Agree : @The_Tetromino_King @AsterReal (Posibility h3a)
Disagree : @Setsuna_tenma @Super_Nova @PedjaTarzan @Voidnether @AyOgUyS @Giannysmag @Puppet43 @InfinityTurtleHD @Sahlwrld @FentyBeauty
Neutral : @ZENZUYA

FOR HDE 4D + L2C
Agree : @Sahlwrld @The_Tetromino_King @Super_Nova @AsterReal @Voidnether @ExcelsisBerny (only for shades ) @Vietthai96 (L2c and posibility/Likely HDE 4D) @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest

Disagree : @Setsuna_tenma @PedjaTarzan @Puppet43

Neutral : @AyOgUyS (leaning towards agree) @Giannysmag @ZENZUYA @FentyBeauty (leaning towards agree) @InfinityTurtleHD

From now on this CRT focuses on HDE and L2C
If there is an wrong in entering the voting results, please call me in this the crt

 

[MSahla]

I am fine with Istaroth's HDE because her being literally Time itself.

But the High 3-A?.. Idk man, the universe is confirmed to be infinite but using these feats of Surtalogi? Ehh, i don't think that this is enough bro. Especially this one.

Not only that, Surtalogi is also referred to as a Higher Being and a transcendent being. Skirk explains that Surtalogi has travelled throughout the universe in search of a worthy opponent.
That is:
⦁ Weapons whose energy comes from entire star systems, gods and the strongest warriors from billions of creatures. However, all of that was easily defeated by Surtalogi without using his full power. Surtalogi also that it possessed such terrifying and absolute power that it was incomprehensible, a power called "Higher Power". Skirk even explained to the traveller that this power was capable of challenging "the Higher Dimensional".

None of these can really support the H3A because i don't think theres any correlations to it.

The only ones that can support it is these:

Surtalogi is said to have the ability to envelop the entire universe with abyssal energy. As Surtalogi explains, tree are analogous to civilisation, forest are analogous to the universe, and the Genshin universe itself has been described as infinite. In addition, the disaster 500 years ago caused by the sinners was powerful enough to turn the universe upside down.

I'm just neutral on H3A for now.

 

[Furina003]

I am fine with Istaroth's HDE because her being literally Time itself.

But the High 3-A?.. Idk man, the universe is confirmed to be infinite but using these feats of Surtalogi? Ehh, i don't think that this is enough bro. Especially this one.

If someone wants to cover the entire infinite universe with their energy, they clearly need infinite energy. Attack potency is not about destructive power, but about how much energy can be released. For example, if there is a character capable of illuminating the entire infinite universe, they will also gain H3A attack potency, because something that is infinite, whether multiplied or divided by any number, will still produce infinite results.

 

[MSahla]

If someone wants to cover the entire infinite universe with their energy, they clearly need infinite energy. Attack potency is not about destructive power, but about how much energy can be released. For example, if there is a character capable of illuminating the entire infinite universe, they will also gain H3A attack potency, because something that is infinite, whether multiplied or divided by any number, will still produce infinite results.

As i said before, the only one who can support the H3A is this part right here:

Surtalogi is said to have the ability to envelop the entire universe with abyssal energy. As Surtalogi explains, tree are analogous to civilisation, forest are analogous to the universe, and the Genshin universe itself has been described as infinite. In addition, the disaster 500 years ago caused by the sinners was powerful enough to turn the universe upside down. Surtalogi is also considered a cosmic calamity by other civilisations in the universe.

This part right here is literally have 0 correlations to H3A

Not only that, Surtalogi is also referred to as a Higher Being and a transcendent being. Skirk explains that Surtalogi has travelled throughout the universe in search of a worthy opponent.
That is:
⦁ Weapons whose energy comes from entire star systems, gods and the strongest warriors from billions of creatures. However, all of that was easily defeated by Surtalogi without using his full power. Surtalogi also that it possessed such terrifying and absolute power that it was incomprehensible, a power called "Higher Power". Skirk even explained to the traveller that this power was capable of challenging "the Higher Dimensional".

If you really want the literal H3A or even Low 2-C, take Istaroth's feat who can change and create a whole new timeline for Inazuma.

• Text Manipulation (As the writer of the story of Genshin Impact (or Teyvat), she can alter the narrative, including rewriting the entire timeline of Inazuma.)

 

[Furina003]

As i said before, the only one who can support the H3A is this part right here:

The main purpose of CRT is in this section.

This part right here is literally have 0 correlations to H3A

others are merely complementary to prove how superior the power of surtalogy is

If you really want the literal H3A or even Low 2-C, take Istaroth's feat who can change and create a whole new timeline for Inazuma.

This requires a separate CRT to discuss, so I won't say anything about it.

 

[MSahla]

others are merely complementary to prove how superior the power of surtalogy is

Thats unnecessary

This requires a separate CRT to discuss, so I won't say anything about it.

This H3A proposal for nothing then?

 

[Furina003]

Thats unnecessary

I think it's necessary because it leads to a higher level than H3A.

This H3A proposal for nothing then?

I don't understand what you mean. Changing the timeline and feat surtalogi have nothing to do with it, so yeah, that's out of context for CRT now. Discussing that will only lead to irrelevant and useless debates for CRT. It will only make CRT difficult to evaluate.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

⦁ Weapons whose energy comes from entire star systems, gods and the strongest warriors from billions of creatures. However, all of that was easily defeated by Surtalogi without using his full power. Surtalogi also that it possessed such terrifying and absolute power that it was incomprehensible, a power called "Higher Power". Skirk even explained to the traveller that this power was capable of challenging "the Higher Dimensional".

​

No, the higher dimensions is mistranslation, it just talks about higher level of power, it is a generic talk about more power nothing higher dimensional. Hard disagree with the ctr so much hyperbole used to justify it.

 

[Furina003]

No, the higher dimensions is mistranslation, it just talks about higher level of power, it is a generic talk about more power nothing higher dimensional. Hard disagree with the ctr so much hyperbole used to justify it.

no, how do you know it's a mistranslation?

when skirk explained it to childe, she used the word higher power, but higher power has a broad meaning, and after the archon quest was released she explained it with the more specific word, "higher dimensional", which implies that higher power is something that leads to a power that can challenge a higher dimension, so there's nothing wrong in the translation.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

no, how do you know it's a mistranslation?

when skirk explained it to childe, she used the word higher power, but higher power has a broad meaning, and after the archon quest was released she explained it with the more specific word higher dimensional, which implies that higher power is something that leads to a power that can challenge a higher dimension, so there's nothing wrong in the translation.

i played the jp not to mention we already talked about it in the discussion thread she is talking about futher height of power not literally higher dimension.

 

[Furina003]

i played the jp not to mention we already talked about it in the discussion thread she is talking about futher height of power not literally higher dimension.

in original teks, literally means higher dimensional. in accordance with the English text

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

[TIER H3A — SHADES, SOVEREIGN, DAN SINNERS]
​

Surtalogi is said to have the ability to envelop the entire universe with abyssal energy. As Surtalogi explains, tree are analogous to civilisation, forest are analogous to the universe, and the Genshin universe itself has been described as infinite. In addition, the disaster 500 years ago caused by the sinners was powerful enough to turn the universe upside down. Surtalogi is also considered a cosmic calamity by other civilisations in the universe.​

I never interpreted it like this, Interesting. I will agree for high 3-A.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

i played the jp not to mention we already talked about it in the discussion thread she is talking about futher height of power not literally higher dimension.

Even so, There is still no denying that he is described as both having a higher existence and a transcendental existence. That alone should've given him HDE for existing in a higher level of existence than Skirk, Traveler, narwhal etc.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Even so, There is still no denying that he is described as both having a higher existence and a transcendental existence. That alone should've given him HDE for existing in a higher level of existence than Skirk, Traveler, narwhal etc.

no it just talks about power and the transdent part just was skirk talking about him able to take any form.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

no it just talks about power and the transdent part just was skirk talking about him able to take any form.

Different context. The higher being part =/= higher dimensions part.

Form, which is the 3rd dimension by definition is literally described as irrelevant for him. Within context he is a higher existence because he transcend form. which is why he can takes any form regardless of size or shape. You could have dismissed it, if it didn't include the fact that form is irrelevant to him, So his HDE is backed up by the fact that form aka the 3dimension is irrelevant to him.

 

[SuperNova55555]

in original teks, literally means higher dimensional. in accordance with the English text

I think you’re confusing flowery language for a literal meaning here. From an outsider perspective like mine, this just sounds like a standard way to talk about higher levels of power. There’s nothing that inherently says it must be talking about dimensions in a spatiotemporal sense.

Aside from that, the HDE seems decent ig in the sense that Istaroth is to literally be the temporal dimension itself (by being “moments” or “time” itself). I.e that she manifests herself as the whole of the particulars that her concept actualizes.

As for High 3-A, if that’s genuinely the only proof, then I’m kinda sus about it. Especially with the use of “at large”, as it can mean “the universe in general” which isn’t necessarily the whole. Also, “turning the universe upside down” is really obvious flowery language, unless I’m missing some context and it genuinely happened.

 

[Furina003]

I think you’re confusing flowery language for a literal meaning here. From an outsider perspective like mine, this just sounds like a standard way to talk about higher levels of power. There’s nothing that inherently says it must be talking about dimensions in a spatiotemporal sense.

I don't even understand why it's considered flowery, they are literally talking about power, hence why surtalogy is said to be a higher being and absolute power that cannot be understood by a human traveler.

As for High 3-A, if that’s genuinely the only proof, then I’m kinda sus about it. Especially with the use of “at large”, as it can mean “the universe in general” which isn’t necessarily the whole. Also, “turning the universe upside down” is really obvious flowery language, unless I’m missing some context and it genuinely happened.

The essence of scaling is not from the word higher dimensional, but from the surtalogi that is able to cover the entire infinite universe with abyss energy and the disaster 500 years ago that was able to turn the universe upside down. what do you think about this?
higher dimensional issues i will discuss in a separate crt for now it is just a complement that proves the superiority of the power of surtalogy

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

We also know Surtalogi achieved absolute, supreme and incomprehensible power, this can't be said for any other character, not even the other sinners or the shades. This should make him scale with the shades. Having a power incomprehensible to them.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Eh, the evidence for the universe being infinite is really questionable, since it seems like flowery language meant to accentuate the relationship between the universe’s vastness and human insignificance.

Looking up, she could see the night sky embracing all that is. In that moment, a thousand emotions crystallized into questions. Where hang the sun and moon? What canvas depicts the stars? The infinite universe and breadth of time question the smallness of man. Yet it is these small specimens of mortality who may embark on long voyages, the power to create miracles firmly within their grasp.

The entire text is written with that poetic style using a lot of figures of speech.

Is there any further evidence on this, or is that all?

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don't even understand why it's considered flowery, they are literally talking about power, hence why surtalogy is said to be a higher being and absolute power that cannot be understood by a human traveler.

This doesn’t inherently mean anything. It’s just to say that it’s a new level of power which is entirely consistent with my interpretation. I’m only agreeing with 4D cuz of Istaroth

The essence of scaling is not from the word higher dimensional, but from the superlogy that is able to cover the entire infinite universe with abyss energy and the disaster 500 years ago that was able to turn the universe upside down. what do you think about this?

This is what my comment addresses… I am saying I find the evidence used very sus and hyperbolized.

“The shadow her master cast over the universe at large.” doesn’t necessarily mean nor imply “he filled the infinite universe with abyssal energy” if you analyze the language used.

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

Yeah, I'm unsure if we should be using a Twitter post description as proof as it being infinite unless there's more consistent proof that the space is infinite or is supposrted by Chinese translation. I just think Surtalogi casting a shadow over the universe is more metaphorical rather than being literal. It's more or less seems to just refer to Surtalogi's influence.

 

[Furina003]

This doesn’t inherently mean anything. It’s just to say that it’s a new level of power which is entirely consistent with my interpretation. I’m only agreeing with 4D cuz of Istaroth

okay I entered your vote results

This is what my comment addresses… I am saying I find the evidence used very sus and hyperbolized.

“The shadow her master cast over the universe at large.” doesn’t necessarily mean nor imply “he filled the infinite universe with abyssal energy” if you analyze the language used.

that is literally, then the surtalogy is considered a cosmic catastrophe and a disaster 500 years ago caused by sinners who are described as powerful enough to turn the universe upside down

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

This doesn’t inherently mean anything. It’s just to say that it’s a new level of power which is entirely consistent with my interpretation. I’m only agreeing with 4D cuz of Istaroth

He is still descripted as both having a higher and trasncendental existence outside the higher power scan. Forms is irrelevant to him, since he can take from regardless of shape or size. This should HDE by vsbw standards.

 

[Furina003]

Yeah, I'm unsure if we should be using a Twitter post description as proof as it being infinite unless there's more consistent proof that the space is infinite or is supposrted by Chinese translation. I just think Surtalogi casting a shadow over the universe is more metaphorical rather than being literal. It's more or less seems to just refer to Surtalogi's influence.

that is the description of the official skirk animation "Star Odyssey"

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

He is still descripted as both having a higher and trasncendental existence outside the higher power scan. Forms is irrelevant to him, since he can take from regardless of shape or size. This should HDE by vsbw standards.

Transcendental can be used to express something that surpasses ordinary limits. Honestly, this just seems to be saying that a character is far superior to the others, nothing more. You do not always need to assume it is talking about higher topological/geometrical dimensions.

I do not necessarily disagree yet, but the evidence feels barebones for everything that is not Istaroth related.

 

[SuperNova55555]

that is literally, then the surtalogy is considered a cosmic catastrophe and a disaster 500 years ago caused by sinners who are described as powerful enough to turn the universe upside down

This is still consistent with what I said. Casting a shadow over the universe can very well be understood as his influence (what the other guy said) which then makes sense with him being a “cosmic catastrophe”. And I don’t see how “turning the universe upside-down” should ever be considered a literal feat without heavy context.

I’m disagreeing with High 3-A for the moment.

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

Put me at disagree. for High 3-A, I'm just not really convinced that Surtalogi is universal unless there's more concrete evidence.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Transcendental can be used to express something that surpasses ordinary limits

Ofcourse it can.

. Honestly, this just seems to be saying that a character is far superior to the others, nothing more. You do not always need to assume it is talking about higher topological dimensions.

But within said context, it doesn't feel like it was merely speaking about ordinary limits, He is not bound by forms since those are irrelevant concepts to him. Higher and trasncendal existence is more so ontological here, because his incompherensible existence is identified with him transcending forms which by default should be the 3rd dimension.

 

[Furina003]

Eh, the evidence for the universe being infinite is really questionable, since it seems like flowery language meant to accentuate the relationship between the universe’s vastness and human insignificance.

it literally talks about l2c cosmology

The entire text is written with that poetic style using a lot of figures of speech.

Is there any further evidence on this, or is that all?

traveler and octavia also said the same thing

 

[Furina003]

Put me at disagree. for High 3-A, I'm just not really convinced that Surtalogi is universal unless there's more concrete evidence.

what about hde?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

it literally talks about l2c cosmology

traveler and octavia also said the same thing

How does Aether know that? Genuine question. Also, you repeated the same scan 2 times.

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

Yeah I remember this being addressed in a previous scan and several people disagreed upon it.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

He is not bound by forms since those are irrelevant concepts to him.

What does "transcends" forms even mean in this context? I don't understand how is that related to spatial dimensions at all.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

What does "transcends" forms even mean in this context? I don't understand how is that related to spatial dimensions at all.

forms as in 3D objects. Surtalogi posssessess transcendence over forms, this is why Surtalogi can choose any form or shape regardless of the length, width, and height of said form. It is even hinted by Skirk, his forms can even be incomprehensibleto to us.

 

[Furina003]

Traveler

How does Aether know that? Genuine question. Also, you repeated the same scan 2 times.

traveler is an exploration of the universe
the same as Octavia

 

[Weaver261]

Disagree to all since we still don't have enough proof to say anything higher dimensional. None of that was ever mentioned. Whenever we deal with Chinese games, it's a must to be consistent with Original Chinese text. Surtalogi H3-A is also really vague with no quantifiable amount to give that tier. Just close this CRT for the time being and re open it when it becomes relevant.

 

[SuperNova55555]

None of that was ever mentioned.

What does this mean

 

[Furina003]

Disagree to all since we still don't have enough proof to say anything higher dimensional. None of that was ever mentioned. Whenever we deal with Chinese games, it's a must to be consistent with Original Chinese text. Surtalogi H3-A is also really vague with no quantifiable amount to give that tier. Just close this CRT for the time being and re open it when it becomes relevant.

This

 

[Furina003]

Yeah I remember this being addressed in a previous scan and several people disagreed upon it.

different discussions

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

This

This statement doesn’t make sense from a logical standpoint.

The white-haired girl is basically saying that after mastering all the elemental arts of Teyvat (energies of nature), Aether can confront higher dimensions. But how would that even work? How is it possible for a three-dimensional being, wielding three-dimensional energy, to affect supposedly higher geometric dimensions?

I think we’re not fully grasping how unbelievable that claim is here.