Arkenis
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So why does he scale and anyone else if he isn't tanking the explosion?
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Revaluation of SS Ichigo AP
- Thread starter NeonTxme
- Start date
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NeonTxme
He/Him- 53
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- #122
I believe Arc7Kuroi argued Ichigo blocking the explosion in someway arguing it alreayd went off back when he created the blogs and all (there were also calcs for 5B Kiko Oh if it was to destroy the SS not the Seireitei) but my brain is not having enough simulation powers for that xaxa.
Also Ichigo would still scale to the scaffold by a large degree, I'm currently handling a bad wifi and some problems IRL.(knowing the disagreements coming from KingTempest and Damage I highly doubt any argument made would change their opinions as well, Quawsed already told me to put him in the disagreement that's why I'm trying to get the collection of all counter-arguments so we can discuss the topic without 3 other pages being made)
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,353
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Idk what he provided, but there isn't an explosion, just the flames of the bird. And this is supposedly, to you, meant for destroying the planet?
Ghostimuscrime
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I don't believe mine was properly responded to here
Revaluation of SS Ichigo AP
got my hopes again :sigh: I agree on your behalf knowing Kubos way of doing these stuff, but with statements such as "it overwhelms everything in existence" via its Reiatsu it'd be weird to assume it being only on that range of power. Couldn't that statement simply be hyperbolic, given that...
This contradicts....nothing? it at best shows it could potentially mean one of the possible references could be multiple continents (highly context dependent case that does not exist for the Sokyoku)
having a potential reference =/= bare minnimum reference ALWAYS meaning that (also can you link which scan you are talking about when you mention central 46)
this isn't PIS/CIS, you think it is, but it isn't
we don't slap on these terms on any and every anti feat when they don't fit
Not a single response here debunks ANYTHING I said
1) you argue him not utilising his kit effectively & being counter productive by not using his supposed wincons is due to stupidity
2) I argue he's ability is limited and those wincons are non existent fanfiction AND he's intelligent enough to use his kit effectively, improvise, use tricks and be efficient.
3) you try responding with Gremmy not being a super genius? like that shit does not conflict with my premise in the slightest
I need him to be average or above average in intelligence
I argued IQ feats that place him at average or above average
that alone is enough to invalidate the point
yeah i wonder why the guy who's super limited ability fails to directly affect opps that are stronger than him didn't do that
so his supposed intended effect primarily intended for his current opponent to die did not kill him? wow shocker
looks like he just whipped out a meteor cuz meteors are strong if the hidden intention of his that you clearly read ended up not coming to fruition
these two are not remotely similar at all, gremmy gets to choose however large of an attack he unleashes, he does not even give a shit about others survival, he could throw a star, he could throw a galaxy, y'all have him scaled to friggin mid end 4-A on site, absolutely 0 excuse to compare with non reality warpers having less dc than their ap because the latter has an explanation
gremmy's case does not have one, because him amping a meteor is just fanmade nonsense and it is just a normal meteor, that ties in perfectly with how his other abilities cause the effect as a natural consequence of an element rather than direct affliction
they're an 8-C character for all I care, sound being shown was never a requirement, all the same this point is useless to argue because the bomb premise is something YOU injected not meAh, yes, a soundless bomb which blows up a 6B character. And we literally see the entire thing on screen. Arhuing there is one is just an appeal to possibility, ngl. Unless explicitly shown or stated you can't just assume something.
I don't have to defend it, this scene gives 0 conflicts with anything that I said because the method of destruction is off screened, you can't claim anything happened and neither can I
this deadass does not debunk anything?
did he shatter her bones like that? nah
did he turn them into cookies resulting in the brittleness taking effect during motion and break her skeletal structure? yeah
this is by it's very definition an indirect effect
crazy how i never said this once, I said he needs doubled power to bring a meteor in
on the topic of if it determines whether gremmy CAN't do this? I mean sure it does not serve as an anti feat, I haven't implied it does, or at least that was not my intention
but the fact of the matter is, that is not an ability gremmy has shown being capable of doing, we will not be giving him abilities he hasn't shown, simple
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what is even the context, 4 pages of what
Ghostimuscrime
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"I can't even imagine Gremmy not being in the Soul Society Arc"
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Gremmy’s power is not scaled by theoretical assumptions, but by what he is shown to successfully imagine, manifest, and maintain. Appealing to unseen ways he uses his ability (“he could’ve just imagined instant death”) is a No Limits Fallacy and even this insta death scan you showed looks like Grammy making someone explode, hence causing him to “die”
Once Gremmy introduces a physical cause (meteor, vacuum, water enclosure), the outcome/effect becomes subject to interception and resistance. Intent does not override effect/outcome. The meteor was physically destroyed by Shikai Zaraki, and its intended consequence (mass death) never occurred. Whether Gremmy intended death to occur directly or via natural consequences is irrelevant: the construct failed that’s the important part.
You have to understand that every time Germany utilizes his subjective reality it via physical means not by some abstract means. He wants to mass kill peoples he uses a meteor to do so, he wants to “erase” people from existence he makes them explode into a splatter, he wants to incapacitate someone he turns their bones to cookies, he needs a danmaku of projectiles makes guns. There is always a physical cause that induces his desired effects not an abstract one.
And as ghost said
“he is knowledgeable about Shinigami's weaknesses and the effects on the body that exposure to vacuum can result in, he also is knowledgeable enough to try and utilise them to his benefit”
His clearly not “special” enough to need assistance in daily living tasks. He understands and can think accordingly, deeming it sufficient that a meteor can mass kill (captains including) while wild cards like Zaraki exists is not because “plot” or “too dumb” it’s because he deemed it sufficient to kill then even when knowing their power
Because it was more than enough to kill them. If anything this just strengthens the argument that these peps aren’t planet level. Gremmy believed it was more than sufficient to kill then to the very last moment until Zaraki used shikai to exceed his expectations
Ghostimuscrime
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Lowkey we shouldn’t even need to explain how Gremmy uses natural consequence of his constructs to induce his desired effects
If someone believes his meteor was specifically amped up instead of just being a normal ablation-KE-reliant meteor that should be their burden to prove
If someone believes his meteor was specifically amped up instead of just being a normal ablation-KE-reliant meteor that should be their burden to prove
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An argument can be made from his prior creations, the bullets from his guns were amped up. Given that we know from safwy that Kenpachi’s reaitsu is so hurt, it melts bullets but Kenpachi doesn't melt his simply means his bullets is amped up and could logically extend to his meteor as well.
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Ghostimuscrime
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Lemme see the scan
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Raw page
さすが一刀火葬の炎も、一発でビルすら倒壊させる機銃の弾丸も、全て、剣八の身体に届く直前で灼き溶かされていたのである。
流石に一刀火葬による熱のダメージはあるようだが、弾丸の影響を全く受けていないところを見ると、あるいは器子すらも崩壊させている可能性があった。
唯一無事なのは、更木が自身の霊圧を通わせている死覇装と、彼の持つ斬魄刀。そして、やはり彼自身の力で生み出された霊子の――
Translation;
As expected, both the flames of Ittō Kasō and the machine-gun rounds powerful enough to collapse a building were all scorched and melted away just before they could reach Kenpachi’s body.
It does seem that the heat damage from Ittō Kasō had some effect; however, judging from the fact that he was completely unaffected by the bullets, it is possible that even the kishi particles themselves were being destroyed.
The only things left completely unharmed were the shihakushō into which Zaraki was channeling his own spiritual pressure, and the Zanpakutō he carried, both of which were, as expected, composed of reishi generated by his own power.
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Also if someone has lesser lifting strength, they would get crushed by a meteor whether they are planet level or not. So why are we using gremmy as anti feat?
Tho I don't think if the theoretical destruction was calced, it would reach planet level. That's if it gets accepted.
Tho I don't think if the theoretical destruction was calced, it would reach planet level. That's if it gets accepted.
Saqphire
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I imagine Sokyoku would use the standard Earth vape calc if it got accepted which is at 68 Zettatons aka planet level
Ghostimuscrime
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Mind giving me the chapter number
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I can't recall, it should be close to the end of the volume 2 of spirits are forever with you, the final battle with azashiro. IIRC
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Okay, this is probable since the sokyoku induces vaporisation in its range. So it's fine.
Can anyone summarise the arguments supporting this scaling made in this thread? I didn't think much of this thread before but it is looking like there is no current sufficient evidence to counter the scaling.
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So after glancing through the thread, the arguments supporting planetary sokyoku scale comes from;
- The non canon game where the plot of the features the sokyoku capable of planetary destruction, a plot point that was supervised by the canon author kubo himself.
- The memories of nobody, a canon movie featuring the kido cannon, that is a variant of the sokyoku destroying the Valley of screams, a star sized dimension (though the dangai walls were probably also disintegrating the dimension) but the purpose of the canon can possibly destroy other kyogukus outside the dangai.
- Toshiro states the sokyoku can destroy the entire soul society. Though we are still currently debating what the scale of the entire soul society is but the first argument supports a planetary scale in my view.
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That shit can reduce a gap between 9 joules and 9 foe if it’s wrong it’s wrong
NeonTxme
He/Him- 53
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- Thread starter
- #142
Hey lads sorry for the past few hours.
Regarding the calcs for Sokyoku I believe we can use Arc7Kuroi's old calcs, knowing how the chain-scalings and all came up with him at first it'd be better to use a similar format.(I'm not that good with calcs yet, mb-)
Here's also the original Kiko Oh blog, the calc uses the same formats and justification for what we're looking for per Specterxxxx and Saqphire. I'll wrap up other stuff in a minute as well. Yet again sorry for the time wasted
Regarding the calcs for Sokyoku I believe we can use Arc7Kuroi's old calcs, knowing how the chain-scalings and all came up with him at first it'd be better to use a similar format.(I'm not that good with calcs yet, mb-)
Here's also the original Kiko Oh blog, the calc uses the same formats and justification for what we're looking for per Specterxxxx and Saqphire. I'll wrap up other stuff in a minute as well. Yet again sorry for the time wasted
NeonTxme
He/Him- 53
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- Thread starter
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Icl it's no different from true-
fs fs
and also regarding this we discussed the matter and Kubo's involvement into the creation of that character therefore showing his intentions of Sokyoku being a powerful world-destroying weapon all yada yada,
as far as my memories goes there isn't much to Yama's bankai being a suicidal move as you claim, but sure? he still scales above the sternritters from the invasion (including Gremmy which has a 4B feat based of his outerspace feat) and downscales from a casual multi-solar feat from the 0 division.
also yet again, context matters. even Yama's bankai was hyped to cause the destruction of the entire SS by both inverse and datacards, same applies for the Sokyoku as it was repeatedly hyped up to those "world-ending" stuff by both inverse and SOULs databook shown in given scans.
the last scans placed in this imgur
Ghostimuscrime
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Real human beings attempting to rationalise this proposal feels so funny to me man
idk if i should continue arguing or watch the shit show
idk if i should continue arguing or watch the shit show
Ralp0054
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Keep going; the stronger your response, the more problems you'll solve. That's the point of these discussions.Real human beings attempting to rationalise this proposal feels so funny to me man
idk if i should continue arguing or watch the shit show
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Fair, and I still don't see whats particularly "wrong" with his proposed scaling. I haven't seen a substantial argument that counters the arguments made in the post and on the thread.
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None of the points for "why is this referencing the planet" have been answered. All that's said is "there's other weapons of different versions that can destroy dimensions with a star" and the like
That means little. That just says different versions show much stronger yields. That's why they're different versions.
The distinction of "SS the planet" and "SS the land area" is being taken as the planet for literally no reason. At this point why not take it as the whole realm?
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Ngl the past 4 pages have been giving me these vibes
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But they have been referenced in this thread and in the Ops blog already, the power of the sokyoku in the game is interpreted as the same power of the sokyoku here. And the power of the sokyoku in the game has planetary impact so that extends here. I also brought a scan of toshiro saying the entire soul society is within the sokyoku range. Depending on what "entire" means here, it can support any of the scale metas of the Soul society. But it lends to planet level more since it is Consistent with kubo surpervision of other Media depicting sokyoku.
The reason why the Mon argument was used is that the kido cannon releases several sokyokus at the dimension and several of them are possibly potent enough to destroy the dimension so a single one capable of that scale can be logical.
Because the non canon game, supervised by the author depicts the scale to the planet and not any other metas.
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If the game is non-canon, i don't think trying to treat one particular element of it as canon is a good idea.
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I still haven’t seen any convincing counter-argument regarding the fact that Sokyoku doesn't have the ability to destroy the Soul Society planet. Most of you talk about how Soul Society here doesn't refer to the planet, but rather the entire Soul Society universe, or you say it’s a hyperbole statement, or you mention that the size of the Soul Society planet is unclear (based on what I’ve seen in the discussion). But the arguments are strong enough that we can extract what we need from them. I’ve explained this before, so let me say it once again: When we hear the term "Soul Society" in the context of the work, it generally has a few meanings. Either the characters are referring to Seireitei, or to the entire place where the Shinigami live, or to the entire world that we call Soul Society, which is the universe itself. Given that in the movies, Sokyoku’s power is scaled to something similar to what we’ve considered, and in one of the games where Kubo himself directly supervised the creation of characters and other concepts, the power of Sokyoku was stated to be capable of destroying Soul Society, we see in the panel I posted at the beginning of this thread that Soul Society here doesn't just refer to Seireitei, showing that the outside environment of Seireitei can also be included. We can consider the planet because no other meaning is given. We can’t say it refers to the entire universe because it doesn’t make sense, and there’s no sufficient background for that, or we could even consider it a hyperbole (assuming the intention is the universe), but it wouldn’t be unreasonable for the most powerful execution device of the Shinigami at the time to have the ability to destroy something as large as Earth.
Although Soul Society and the World of the Living are two sides of the same coin, this not only doesn’t support the idea of Soul Society being universal, but we can argue that everything in the World of the Living is essentially a copy within Soul Society, including the planet the Shinigami live on. So, indirectly, the planet of Soul Society is the same size as our Earth.
With all this in mind, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that Sokyoku’s power could be on the level of vaporizing the entire Earth."
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It doesn't matter, even if it’s non canon, the idea of what Sokyoku can do has still been mentioned (considering that Kubo himself directly oversaw the creation of the game), and it can be used. We're not attaching the game as canon to Bleach, rather, we’re using the idea of what Sokyoku is capable of.
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"A lowball" THE LOWBALL is that it's the soul society that was explained at that point, which was the town, not the PLANET
Ralp0054
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We're not talking about general lowball arguments, we're talking about lowball arguments backed by evidence. Are we going to bring the town into the country-planet-universe debate this time? It's very simple, how many counter-arguments are there against SS being a country?
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...NONE? There are none against it being a country/town/city/whateverthefuck it is. That's how it was originally INTRODUCED
Ghostimuscrime
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KT going through what me and damage had to endure for years 
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Because why are we acting as if the phrase "Soul Society" has always referred to the planet??? Like huh??? When we've barely seen outside of the single country there and it was introduced as the damn country
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I'll be honest, I have no idea what's going on anymore and quite frankly, I'm not gonna try to figure this out.
Ralp0054
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Let's calm down, im also trying to solve
The 6-B destruction we accept not even include SS, it should only encompass the vaporation of Seireitei. SS was never classified as a country or continent. The point is that we need to consider the destruction of SS that is being discussed. These destruction scales shouldn't seem absurd because we're talking about something with the power of millions of Zampakto. In the old scale, SS was also considered a planet, and Yamamoto's eventual destruction of SS is also global vaporation. Where did the argument that SS wasn't a planet first come from?
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