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Honestly, I wasn't really expecting to do this so soon, but here we are. Part 1 of, yes, Bleach Speed Revisions (Special thanks to @Apotheosis69, who can be considered the Co-Creator of these revisions). With that said, there are a few things that need to be stated beforehand.
  • This series of revisions will only be using accepted calcs and forming proper scaling and numbers. The point of this series is not to complete Bleach Speed Revisions™️ , but to create a foundation that future speed revisions can build off of. I mean, some characters don't even have the right amount of speed ratings for the keys they have, the multipliers are half-baked (In the profiles that have them applied anyways) and there's some upscaling done that people basically have to do guesswork about.
  • With that said, anything proposed is subject to change in future CRTs. New speed calc? Feel free to create a CRT about it. Want to upgrade the scaling? Go for it (:. Want to downgrade the scaling? Go for it :(. Nothing here is being proposed as super concrete, but something needs to exist as the base for scaling to be done.
  • Like I mentioned in my previous CRT, certain keys/characters will not be covered. Generally speaking, that would be characters who's scaling is almost entirely dependant on TYBW Cour 4 or CFYOW. A new addition to this category is characters with Unknown speed ratings that I don't have a quick answer to (if any). You don't need a speed chart to know Unknown speed is Unknown.
  • All of the numbers below will be for COMBAT SPEED unless STATED OTHERWISE.
  • I will, generally speaking, not include which characters will have an At most or At least. However, they will be assigned based off of feats.
With that said, here is the big topic that I need to go through before we can get these revisions underway. I'll tackle it in this thread so my life can be easier in the next one (and because it technically has to be clarified here because of Partial Hollowfication).

Hollow Masks

So, Hollow Masks are considered 5x AP. But are they also considered 5x speed? Well, I'll try to argue in favor of the Masks. First, this here is a summary of the mask. With that out of the way, most of the content is about power or AP. Even still, there are plenty of signs that Partial Hollowfication and Hollow Masks increase speed.
Now, here are the four options
  1. Highball: All Hollow Mask users get 5x speed. I don't like this one too much, mainly because the Visoreds really didn't show much to make me believe they deserve 5x speed.
  2. Midball (Is that the right word?): Just Ichigo with his Hollow Mask gets 5x speed. We already know Ichigo's Hollowfication is pretty special, we also already know Ichigo's a speed-based character and we also have the databook statement about his Mask making him faster. Most importantly, nearly all of the speed feats come from Ichigo with some of them being fast enough to justify such a speed boost, like with Dordoni and Gin, especially since in the Gin fight, Ichigo was fighting in a mentally weakened state and was still 2x faster. All Visoreds and Kaname just get unquantifiably higher. I'm in favor of this option.
  3. Lowball: Just Ichigo with his Hollow Mask gets 2x speed. The same reasoning for above, but with 2x as a lowball since even in a mentally weakened state that affected the performance of his Hollow Mask, his mask still greatly boosted his speed to counter Gin's Buto Renjin, which was 2x faster. All Visoreds and Kaname just get unquantifiably higher. I'm also in favor of this option.
  4. Extreme Lowball: All Hollow Mask users get unquantifiably higher speed. I also don't like this one, as at least in Ichigo's case, this doesn't seem to be correct. However, this is the extreme lowball (as in, I genuinely do not think you can argue Hollow Masks don't give any speed boosts).
Regardless of the option chosen, Partial Hollowfication will just be unquantifiably higher, as it's not as good as the Masks and has no reason to have a multiplier.

Shunpo/Sonido/Hirenkyaku

This one is pretty simple. I'm going to give Far higher (or whatever variant of higher that is appropriate) with Flash Step/Sonido/Hirenkyaku to everyone who has demonstrated usage of one of these techniques due to these clearly being speed techniques. Unless specified, it can be assumed that anyone with the ability to perform one of these techniques will have them scale to the value of their current speed, except for one person, that being Yoruichi. She's specifically known as the Goddess of Flash for being extremely fast when using Flash Step and greatly outspeeds Byakuya, so she's getting seperate ratings. Sui-Feng keeps up with her, so I'm giving her the same ratings. (I'll be honest, I don't want to add "/Key X's Speed technique" to every character that has one, so if you don't see it on the chart, it's probably just the same value (But obviously an unspecified amount higher when used in a VS thread, with whatever amount being whatever the people argue).

Changelog

With those out of the way, here is the changelog for all characters/keys from Substitute Soul Reaper to Soul Society Arc
  • With nothing to really define Orihime's combat speed (due to how her abilities work), she's currently stuck at Athletic Human for speed. The same goes for Kon in his stuff animal body, who's simply noted for moving faster than a high-school champion sprinter. While there's no speed calc, Kon scales directly to one of Ichigo's classmates who can run 100 meters in 12 seconds, giving Kon a speed of 8.3333 m/s, which I think is fair to give to Orihime as well.

  • Substitute Soul Reaper Ichigo is capable of keeping up with Renji before getting whipped and once he powered up, he surpassed Renji easily. With that in mind, there's no reason for Substitute Soul Reaper Ichigo to be anything lower then 1/5th of Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139), or Supersonic (Mach 1.4828) (I will explain Renji scaling later, but the 1/5th thing is because he had a Gentei Reiin seal on, meaning he had only 1/5th of his speed). At the same time, it is also clear that before his power up, he was constantly on the backfoot against Renji with extremely mediocre performance, so anyone who scales to Substitute Soul Reaper Ichigo BEFORE he fights Renji will downscale to baseline Supersonic (Mach 1.1).


  • All Hollows in the Substitute Soul Reaper Arc have been given Supersonic (Mach 1.1) as they're all scaled as relative to each other and Ichigo or at least, Ichigo's body in terms of speed, though some are slower then others. Substitute Soul Reaper Chad scales to this speed as well as he can match the speed of these hollows. Substitute Soul Reaper Orihime scales in Attack/Reaction speed due to being able to react to hollow attacks and attack at those speeds as well. Don Kanonji also scales directly to the Demi-Hollow and Ichigo. Metastacia is capable of fighting Kaien Shiba, but I couldn't find a scan of him really keeping up with Kaien so I'm just going to put him at the same amount as every other Hollow. The Demi-Hollow, Don Kanonji, Acidwire and Hollow Grand Fisher directly scale, while other characters may not. Thus, I've put another point below this one that will explain this potential discrepancy.


  • Shrieker's Transonic rating is based off his sound wave attack. The minimum for Transonic is Mach 0.9, but since these are sound waves, I've put Shrieker's attack speed with his tongue at Mach 1 while his regular combat speed is Supersonic (Mach 1.1). This does not contradict anything, as the point of his sound wave is that it triggers his explosive leeches, not that it's a super fast attack

  • This calc puts Soul Society Orihime at Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139) Attack/Reaction Speed. Jirobo, the 4th seat of Squad Seven is faster then Orihime. As Jirobo is not stated to be much stronger then his rank unlike Yumichika, it can be assumed that those at the level of 3rd seat and above are at a similar speed. All of Ichigo's Group except for Yoruichi scale to this value. Kukaku also now scales to this value due to superiority to Ganju, who scales to this value based off of him fighting Ichigo and fighting/running from Yumichika. Nemu currently has High Hypersonic for blitzing Uryu, which makes no sense as Uryu is not even close to High Hypersonic, so she's been put to Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139). Izuru, Renji, Hisagi, Rangiku, Yumichika and Ikkaku all scale to High Hypersonic on their Soul Society keys, but the listed feats on these keys include Arrancar Arc feats, which makes no sense. Therefore, they are all now Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139). Isane is currently Unknown, but I'll be changing her to be Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139) as this value can now be seen as the minimum for Lieutenants. Nanao will also be Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139) for the same reason. Uryu also scales massively above Mayuri with Letz Stile who in turn can already perception blitz Uryu using his Flash Step, but since the upscale value would be 1.34882x, I'm unsure if he can be upscaled. For now, I'll just have him at the same value. Mayuri scales to Uryu and isn't that fast, so he goes here. Sajin also goes here because he has the same speed. While Sajin does intercept an attack by Zaraki and stopped Kaname, since Zaraki wasn't really trying at this point and Kaname was heavily injured, he doesn't scale.

  • Post-Bankai Training Bankai Ichigo currently scales to his own Massively Hypersonic calc (Mach 106.7077). Byakuya scales when using his Bankai, only when he's controlling them with the palms of his hands in Attack Speed and scales overall to Reaction Speed since he can react to attacks by Bankai Ichigo, but since he's still slower, I've downscaled him to Massively Hypersonic (Mach 100). Ichigo's Partial Hollowfication is considered an unquatifiable amount higher

  • Since Byakuya controlling his Bankai with his hands doubles his speed, his normal Attack Speed when using his Bankai will be half of the Massively Hypersonic calc, that being High Hypersonic+ (Mach 50).


  • Most characters who upscaled from Hypersonic+ (Mach 21.3415) to High Hypersonic (Mach 25) (1.1715x difference) were set to a lower number, but there a few characters that will scale to this number. Yoruichi scales with her Flash Step due to being the Goddess of Flash (recognized as an extremely fast Shinigami) and even while rusty, out-sped Byakuya who already scales to Hypersonic+. Sui-Feng with her Flash Step scales because she scales directly to Yoruichi.

  • Gin's Buto Renjin is double his attack speed. Thus, the speed of Gin's Buto Renjin attack is High Hypersonic (Mach 42.6831)
Here's the Blog for the changes

Agree: @Dalesean027 (Midball), @Damage3245 (Lowball, also fine with Extreme Lowball), @LephyrTheRevanchist (Midball), @Random-Helper323 (Midball)
Disagree:

Current Revision Status
Orihime
Kon
Shrieker
Chad
Grand Fisher
Fishbone D
The Demi-Hollow
Hexapodus
Bulbous G
Metastacia

Acidwire
Numb Chandelier
Don Kanonji
Ichigo (locked) (completed)
Uryū
Izuru
Isane
Renji
Sajin
Hisagi
Rangiku
Ikkaku
Yumichika
Mayuri
Nemu
Kūkaku

Ganju
Yoruichi
Suì-Fēng
Gin
Byakuya
Shunsui
Nanao
Kaname
Tōshirō
Zaraki
Ukitake
 
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Ichigo's profile for some reason already uses the 5x hollowfication multiplier for speed, but only here
I know, but have you seen the justifications? Not to mention the haphazard application. I could've just gone with what's already accepted, but I wanted to put out examples so it won't be easily removed (some of them say 5x stronger for speed and the ratings are just higher for some reason.
 
This is pretty thorough nice work. I presume most the espada will scale to hollow mask Ichigo? Or just starting at Grimmjow?
 
  1. Highball: All Hollow Mask users get 5x speed. I don't like this one too much, mainly because the Visoreds really didn't show much to make me believe they deserve 5x speed.
  2. Midball (Is that the right word?): Just Ichigo with his Hollow Mask gets 5x speed. We already know Ichigo's Hollowfication is pretty special, we also already know Ichigo's a speed-based character and we also have the databook statement about his Mask making him faster. Most importantly, nearly all of the speed feats come from Ichigo with some of them being fast enough to justify such a speed boost, like with Dordoni and Gin, especially since in the Gin fight, Ichigo was fighting in a mentally weakened state and was still 2x faster. All Visoreds and Kaname just get unquantifiably higher. I'm in favor of this option.
  3. Lowball: Just Ichigo with his Hollow Mask gets 2x speed. The same reasoning for above, but with 2x as a lowball since even in a mentally weakened state that affected the performance of his Hollow Mask, his mask still greatly boosted his speed to counter Gin's Buto Renjin, which was 2x faster. All Visoreds and Kaname just get unquantifiably higher. I'm also in favor of this option.
  4. Extreme Lowball: All Hollow Mask users get unquantifiably higher speed. I also don't like this one, as at least in Ichigo's case, this doesn't seem to be correct. However, this is the extreme lowball (as in, I genuinely do not think you can argue Hollow Masks don't give any speed boosts).
I'm currently leaning towards Lowball or Extreme Lowball for the options. I do agree there's enough evidence for a speed increase from the mask, but I don't think there's anything that conclusively points to a consistent 5x speed multiplier for Hollow masks.
This one is pretty simple. I'm going to give Far higher (or whatever variant of higher that is appropriate) with Flash Step/Sonido/Hirenkyaku to everyone who has demonstrated usage of one of these techniques due to these clearly being speed techniques. Unless specified, it can be assumed that anyone with the ability to perform one of these techniques will have them scale to the value of their current speed, except for one person, that being Yoruichi. She's specifically known as the Goddess of Flash for being extremely fast when using Flash Step and greatly outspeeds Byakuya, so she's getting seperate ratings. Sui-Feng keeps up with her, so I'm giving her the same ratings. (I'll be honest, I don't want to add "/Key X's Speed technique" to every character that has one, so if you don't see it on the chart, it's probably just the same value (But obviously an unspecified amount higher when used in a VS thread, with whatever amount being whatever the people argue).
Higher for all of these sound fine.

The rest of the scaling notes in the changelog seem fine to me.
 
I agree with extreme lowball, there's not enough proof to say the mask gives a 1 to 1 - 5x increase in speed
2x also doesn't quite work when Base Ichigo is already multiple times faster.. (at least as it's accepted right now), and then still loses with the mask on anyway
So imo, just far higher works

Agree with the everything else
 
Thank you for your hard work.
Masked doesn't have much to add, but they would probably agree with either a Midball or a Lowball.
(Masked likes your Personal Chart for Revisions. They might steal it)
 
I feel like it’d be kinda weird to grant the midball without granting the highball, right? I mean, it’s the same power for Ichigo and the Visords, although you could argue Ichigo’s mask stripes increasing correlates to his Hollowfication’s power increasing?

Regardless, Tosen referring to it as power far beyond Bankai and the fact that Hollowfication is a pure and simple spiritual energy amp lead me to side with the midball at the minimum

There’s also evidence from the Grimmjow fight to support that. Bankai Ichigo shows pretty consistent relativity in speed to base Grimmjow, and after Ichigo uses his Hollowfication, he blocks a Gran Rey Cero (accepted as a 10x amp) and is relative in speed to Resureccion Grimmjow, an amp which is stated to be relatively equal to Bankai. Therefore, Hollowfication being at minimum as good of an amp as Bankai (5-10x) in speed stands to reason for me
 
I feel like it’d be kinda weird to grant the midball without granting the highball, right? I mean, it’s the same power for Ichigo and the Visords, although you could argue Ichigo’s mask stripes increasing correlates to his Hollowfication’s power increasing?

Regardless, Tosen referring to it as power far beyond Bankai and the fact that Hollowfication is a pure and simple spiritual energy amp lead me to side with the midball at the minimum

There’s also evidence from the Grimmjow fight to support that. Bankai Ichigo shows pretty consistent relativity in speed to base Grimmjow, and after Ichigo uses his Hollowfication, he blocks a Gran Rey Cero (accepted as a 10x amp) and is relative in speed to Resureccion Grimmjow, an amp which is stated to be relatively equal to Bankai. Therefore, Hollowfication being at minimum as good of an amp as Bankai (5-10x) in speed stands to reason for me
We accept hollow masks having different levels of power increases depending on the character, so there is no reason they should all have the same level of speed either. If there was enough evidence, I would obviously push for Visoreds and Tosen having 5x speed too, but there's a reason I don't favor the highball. The Masks do still boost speed and you could argue in a VS thread that it increases speed by X amount even if they don't get a multiplier though.
 
After reviewing the post, I agree with the Midball interpretation. I hold a difference stance from anything laid out here, but I don't feel like deliberating on it in this thread. It'll require a lengthy and detailed set of arguments, and I don't want to open that discussion until a later date. So, for now, I am fine with defaulting to that position.

Additionally, I will type out a more expansive post on why I agree with the Midball interpretation. I just wanted to get this out in the meantime, as a personal reminder to comment later.
 
After reviewing the post, I agree with the Midball interpretation. I hold a difference stance from anything laid out here, but I don't feel like deliberating on it in this thread. It'll require a lengthy and detailed set of arguments, and I don't want to open that discussion until a later date. So, for now, I am fine with defaulting to that position.
Pretty much same

Tho I am interested in your reasons, so I can wait for that as well
 
Also, what's your opinion on the rest of the changes?
Looking over everything, don't have any particular note or issue, so it's good

As for my vote, you can add me for midball, since we kinda would still need one more for the option before fully concluding this
 
Midball seems okay.

I'm fine with everything else at a glance. I was questioning about Kon scaling to Ichigo, but he demonstrated that speed later when he outran Grand Fisher for a while, so it does kind of track.
Probably should've included that too but since Arrancar Grand Fisher was in the Arrancar arc, I didn't think of looking for that. I might add that as a scan for Kon's Speed (I won't use Kon as scaling for Grand Fisher since that would be circular).

Anyways I have 3 votes, but I have stuff to do and I want to see what @Deceived3596's reasoning is for Midball so maybe I can add it as justifications on profiles (unless he doesn't want to post it).

Regardless, this'll take a while for me to implement anyways so I'm not closing the thread any time soon.
 
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