- 1,247
- 1,159
Staff votes
Minor revisions: 1 vote
Normal revisions: 2 votes
Controversal revisions or verses: 3 votes
Modifiers
Tier 2+: 1 Admin required
Tier 1+: At least 3 staff knowledgeable in Tier 1+
Time required
Self-evident changes: 24 Hours
Anything else: 48 Hours
Minor revisions: 1 vote
Normal revisions: 2 votes
Controversal revisions or verses: 3 votes
Modifiers
Tier 2+: 1 Admin required
Tier 1+: At least 3 staff knowledgeable in Tier 1+
Time required
Self-evident changes: 24 Hours
Anything else: 48 Hours
- This series of revisions will only be using accepted calcs and forming proper scaling and numbers. The point of this series is not to complete Bleach Speed Revisions
, but to create a foundation that future speed revisions can build off of. I mean, some characters don't even have the right amount of speed ratings for the keys they have, the multipliers are half-baked (In the profiles that have them applied anyways) and there's some upscaling done that people basically have to do guesswork about. - With that said, anything proposed is subject to change in future CRTs. New speed calc? Feel free to create a CRT about it. Want to upgrade the scaling? Go for it
. Want to downgrade the scaling? Go for it
. Nothing here is being proposed as super concrete, but something needs to exist as the base for scaling to be done. - Like I mentioned in my previous CRT, certain keys/characters will not be covered. Generally speaking, that would be characters who's scaling is almost entirely dependant on TYBW Cour 4 or CFYOW. A new addition to this category is characters with Unknown speed ratings that I don't have a quick answer to (if any). You don't need a speed chart to know Unknown speed is Unknown.
- All of the numbers below will be for COMBAT SPEED unless STATED OTHERWISE.
- I will, generally speaking, not include which characters will have an At most or At least. However, they will be assigned based off of feats.
Hollow Masks
So, Hollow Masks are considered 5x AP. But are they also considered 5x speed? Well, I'll try to argue in favor of the Masks. First, this here is a summary of the mask. With that out of the way, most of the content is about power or AP. Even still, there are plenty of signs that Partial Hollowfication and Hollow Masks increase speed.
- First, in Ichigo's first fight using his Bankai, he partially hollowfies against Byakuya. Doing this, he clearly gets faster as Byakuya can barely follow him, didn't notice when Ichigo got behind him and couldn't react at all compared to when he previously reacted to Bankai Ichigo (not including the first time Byakuya was unable to react, as he was not taking Ichigo seriously until he realised Ichigo's Bankai was a real threat). (Proof for speed multipliers 1)
- Likewise, Post-Bankai Training Shikai Ichigo was blitzed by Hiyori with her Hollow Mask (which also supports Hollow Masks being a speed boost as this was meant to demonstrate why learning to control Ichigo's inner hollow is so important for future fights to us readers), but instantly blitzed her when he partially hollowfied, to the point where she didn't even react (like, at all). Keep in mind that this is just his Partial Hollowfication, which I've decided will just have a higher rating and is way worse compared to the Hollow Mask. (Proof for speed multipliers 2)
- Now, what about other instances? Well, Post-Bankai Training Bankai Ichigo's speed was unimpressive to Grimmjow, with him referring to the speed as "average". On the rematch, Ichigo instantly shocked Grimmjow with his speed and it's confirmed that his speed and power were greater then Grimmjow. With that in mind, it is true that Grimmjow only has 1 arm and that may have an influence. (Proof for speed multipliers 2.5)
- Shinji does shock Grimmjow with his Hollow Mask, but seeing as he was already having no problems avoiding his attacks, we can skip this as it's not proof for or against Hollow Mask speed. (Null)
- When Ichigo fights Dordoni, he was able to blitz Dordoni with his Bankai, but only when he was busy attacking Nel and thus not paying any attention to Ichigo. Once they start to fight again, Dordoni has no problems keeping up with Ichigo. However, even when he was clearly prepared for Ichigo's Hollow Mask, he couldn't even react once Ichigo attacked. (Proof for speed multipliers 3.5)
- His next fight against Ulquiorra has him start with the mask and while Ulquiorra clearly outpaces Ichigo when he's in Bankai, that's after the massive energy loss from using the Hollow Mask, so this can't be used either way. (Null)
- Grimmjow vs Ichigo Round 3 has Ichigo evenly matched with Grimmjow in Bankai, but once Ichigo uses his Hollow Mask, Grimmjow instantly goes into his Resurreccion, so there can't be a compraison either way. I will note that in TYBW, Grimmjow's partial Resurreccion is used to increase his speed, implying that Grimmjow's Resurreccion gives a speed boost and he was fighting Hollow Mask Ichigo pretty evenly when Bankai Ichigo was evenly matched against Base Grimmjow. (Proof for speed multipliers 4)
- Against Ulquiorra, Ichigo's Bankai was enough to keep up with Base Ulquiorra. With that said, Hollow Mask Ichigo wasn't able to catch Ulquiorra before he exited Hueco Mundo, though this was a pretty fast sequence and could A: be a travel feat (and thus a travel speed thing) and B: him being surprised that Ulquiorra was running (this part isn't conjecture, that's Ichigo's reaction when Ulquiorra goes up instead of at him). Ulquiorra then goes into Resurreccion and instantly blitzed Ichigo, so we can just go ahead and ignore the rest (as it means nothing for Hollow Mask and Partial Hollowfication). (Proof against speed multipliers .25)
- Stepping away from Ichigo for a bit, we have the Visored using their masks against....Gillians... Yeah I don't know either. The worst part is that Shinji pulls up to Aizen and then takes his mask off before swinging. Regardless of whether or not the Hollow Mask boosts speed, this is a stupid move either way so PIS I guess. Now, I really can't be bothered to keep post scans with somewhat detailed explanations, so here's a group of scans from Chapters 367 to 376. It's hard to really tell, but Hachi can't really be used because he doesn't move with his on, Shinji doesn't use his because he's stupid, Kensei doesn't use his because he's stupider, Love's performance against Starrk was when Starrk was slower so idk, Rojuro fought Starrk only when he was serious and I'm not sure if he got signifigantly slower when his mask broke or not since he also just took a huge explosion to the face (same with Love), Mashiro was way slower without the Mask but she also just ran out of energy, Lisa genuinely doesn't seem that much faster with the Mask and idk about Hiyori, her fight scenes in this section were pretty bad. Overall, I will say it's pretty hard to give them a speed multiplier based on this, but mainly because of Lisa. (Proof against speed multipliers 1 (Collectively, it shuts down giving visoreds any speed multiplier)
- Tosen also has his own hollowfication, but that also doesn't bring much to the conversation. He is clearly faster, but it doesn't seem to be much, so I'm giving him the visored treatment. (Proof for speed multipliers 4.25 (No multiplier for Tosen)
- Against Yammy, Ichigo already starts off faster and he doesn't really move when he uses his Hollow Mask, just launching a single attack. Against Aizen, it doesn't matter anyways since Aizen is just way faster regardless. It should be noted that he did seem somewhat faster with the Mask, but Aizen is just too fast to be used in this. (Proof for speed multipliers 4.3)
- The final instance that can reasonably be used is his fight against Gin. Here we can see Ichigo's Bankai going up against Gin and while he is slower, he can somewhat keep up with Gin. Once Gin uses his Buto Renjin which is 2x faster, Ichigo uses his Hollow Mask to dodge the attack, indicating that the Mask should be at least 2x faster. While Ichigo loses this fight, the whole fight after is offscreen and it's heavily implied that this is because Ichigo's heart was wavering at this point, which affected the stamina of his Mask and the boost it gives him. (Proof for speed multipliers 5.3)
- Highball: All Hollow Mask users get 5x speed. I don't like this one too much, mainly because the Visoreds really didn't show much to make me believe they deserve 5x speed.
- Midball (Is that the right word?): Just Ichigo with his Hollow Mask gets 5x speed. We already know Ichigo's Hollowfication is pretty special, we also already know Ichigo's a speed-based character and we also have the databook statement about his Mask making him faster. Most importantly, nearly all of the speed feats come from Ichigo with some of them being fast enough to justify such a speed boost, like with Dordoni and Gin, especially since in the Gin fight, Ichigo was fighting in a mentally weakened state and was still 2x faster. All Visoreds and Kaname just get unquantifiably higher. I'm in favor of this option.
- Lowball: Just Ichigo with his Hollow Mask gets 2x speed. The same reasoning for above, but with 2x as a lowball since even in a mentally weakened state that affected the performance of his Hollow Mask, his mask still greatly boosted his speed to counter Gin's Buto Renjin, which was 2x faster. All Visoreds and Kaname just get unquantifiably higher. I'm also in favor of this option.
- Extreme Lowball: All Hollow Mask users get unquantifiably higher speed. I also don't like this one, as at least in Ichigo's case, this doesn't seem to be correct. However, this is the extreme lowball (as in, I genuinely do not think you can argue Hollow Masks don't give any speed boosts).
Shunpo/Sonido/Hirenkyaku
This one is pretty simple. I'm going to give Far higher (or whatever variant of higher that is appropriate) with Flash Step/Sonido/Hirenkyaku to everyone who has demonstrated usage of one of these techniques due to these clearly being speed techniques. Unless specified, it can be assumed that anyone with the ability to perform one of these techniques will have them scale to the value of their current speed, except for one person, that being Yoruichi. She's specifically known as the Goddess of Flash for being extremely fast when using Flash Step and greatly outspeeds Byakuya, so she's getting seperate ratings. Sui-Feng keeps up with her, so I'm giving her the same ratings. (I'll be honest, I don't want to add "/Key X's Speed technique" to every character that has one, so if you don't see it on the chart, it's probably just the same value (But obviously an unspecified amount higher when used in a VS thread, with whatever amount being whatever the people argue).
Changelog
With those out of the way, here is the changelog for all characters/keys from Substitute Soul Reaper to Soul Society Arc
- With nothing to really define Orihime's combat speed (due to how her abilities work), she's currently stuck at Athletic Human for speed. The same goes for Kon in his stuff animal body, who's simply noted for moving faster than a high-school champion sprinter. While there's no speed calc, Kon scales directly to one of Ichigo's classmates who can run 100 meters in 12 seconds, giving Kon a speed of 8.3333 m/s, which I think is fair to give to Orihime as well.
- Substitute Soul Reaper Ichigo is capable of keeping up with Renji before getting whipped and once he powered up, he surpassed Renji easily. With that in mind, there's no reason for Substitute Soul Reaper Ichigo to be anything lower then 1/5th of Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139), or Supersonic (Mach 1.4828) (I will explain Renji scaling later, but the 1/5th thing is because he had a Gentei Reiin seal on, meaning he had only 1/5th of his speed). At the same time, it is also clear that before his power up, he was constantly on the backfoot against Renji with extremely mediocre performance, so anyone who scales to Substitute Soul Reaper Ichigo BEFORE he fights Renji will downscale to baseline Supersonic (Mach 1.1).
- Kon in Ichigo's body was able to match Ichigo in speed, so I've given him Supersonic (Mach 1.1). This also scales hollows to the same speed
- All Hollows in the Substitute Soul Reaper Arc have been given Supersonic (Mach 1.1) as they're all scaled as relative to each other and Ichigo or at least, Ichigo's body in terms of speed, though some are slower then others. Substitute Soul Reaper Chad scales to this speed as well as he can match the speed of these hollows. Substitute Soul Reaper Orihime scales in Attack/Reaction speed due to being able to react to hollow attacks and attack at those speeds as well. Don Kanonji also scales directly to the Demi-Hollow and Ichigo. Metastacia is capable of fighting Kaien Shiba, but I couldn't find a scan of him really keeping up with Kaien so I'm just going to put him at the same amount as every other Hollow. The Demi-Hollow, Don Kanonji, Acidwire and Hollow Grand Fisher directly scale, while other characters may not. Thus, I've put another point below this one that will explain this potential discrepancy.
Seeing as this is the minimum for Supersonic, I am open to downscaling some of the slower characters to Transonic (Mach 0.9) if having them all at the same speed rating is too much (The group of characters who are considered slower are as follows: Hexapodus, Bulbous G, Substitute Soul Reaper Chad, Numb Chandelier, Substitute Soul Reaper Orihime, Shrieker, Metastacia and Fishbone-D cause he only got Rukia with a cheap shot. If that happens, I will edit in new reasoning for this scaling. If it's still unacceptable, the following characters will be downgraded to baseline Superhuman for just being, well, Superhuman. Yeah, that's more or less all I have.(Staff have accepted Supersonic)
- Shrieker's Transonic rating is based off his sound wave attack. The minimum for Transonic is Mach 0.9, but since these are sound waves, I've put Shrieker's attack speed with his tongue at Mach 1 while his regular combat speed is Supersonic (Mach 1.1). This does not contradict anything, as the point of his sound wave is that it triggers his explosive leeches, not that it's a super fast attack
- This calc puts Soul Society Orihime at Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139) Attack/Reaction Speed. Jirobo, the 4th seat of Squad Seven is faster then Orihime. As Jirobo is not stated to be much stronger then his rank unlike Yumichika, it can be assumed that those at the level of 3rd seat and above are at a similar speed. All of Ichigo's Group except for Yoruichi scale to this value. Kukaku also now scales to this value due to superiority to Ganju, who scales to this value based off of him fighting Ichigo and fighting/running from Yumichika. Nemu currently has High Hypersonic for blitzing Uryu, which makes no sense as Uryu is not even close to High Hypersonic, so she's been put to Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139). Izuru, Renji, Hisagi, Rangiku, Yumichika and Ikkaku all scale to High Hypersonic on their Soul Society keys, but the listed feats on these keys include Arrancar Arc feats, which makes no sense. Therefore, they are all now Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139). Isane is currently Unknown, but I'll be changing her to be Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139) as this value can now be seen as the minimum for Lieutenants. Nanao will also be Hypersonic (Mach 7.4139) for the same reason. Uryu also scales massively above Mayuri with Letz Stile who in turn can already perception blitz Uryu using his Flash Step, but since the upscale value would be 1.34882x, I'm unsure if he can be upscaled. For now, I'll just have him at the same value. Mayuri scales to Uryu and isn't that fast, so he goes here. Sajin also goes here because he has the same speed. While Sajin does intercept an attack by Zaraki and stopped Kaname, since Zaraki wasn't really trying at this point and Kaname was heavily injured, he doesn't scale.
- Post-Bankai Training Bankai Ichigo currently scales to his own Massively Hypersonic calc (Mach 106.7077). Byakuya scales when using his Bankai, only when he's controlling them with the palms of his hands in Attack Speed and scales overall to Reaction Speed since he can react to attacks by Bankai Ichigo, but since he's still slower, I've downscaled him to Massively Hypersonic (Mach 100). Ichigo's Partial Hollowfication is considered an unquatifiable amount higher
- Since Byakuya controlling his Bankai with his hands doubles his speed, his normal Attack Speed when using his Bankai will be half of the Massively Hypersonic calc, that being High Hypersonic+ (Mach 50).
- Ichigo's Bankai is currently accepted to be at least a 5x increase. Thus, Post-Bankai Training Shikai Ichigo is Hypersonic+ (Mach 21.3415). All Captains (except for ones I've mentioned otherwise) with a Soul Society Arc key scale to this number for the same reason they scale to Post-Bankai Training Shikai Ichigo's AP (and for sharing a similar mobility rating to characters who already scale to Ichigo in speed. I will note that while normally Zaraki wouldn't scale, he both scales to Kaname and the Ichigo who could barely keep up with Byakuya before he undergoes his Bankai Training + Zaraki does NOT know Shunpo at this time unlike the other captains, which would naturally bring down his mobility rating.). Pre-Timeskip Nanao scales with her Shunpo for keeping up with Shunsui, although she is slower (so she'll be getting At Most). Post-Bankai Training Renji scales to Soul Society Arc Base Byakuya, who scales directly to Post-Bankai Training Shikai Ichigo. Sui-Feng and Yoruichi also scale to this when not using their Flash Step, just to be safe.
- Most characters who upscaled from Hypersonic+ (Mach 21.3415) to High Hypersonic (Mach 25) (1.1715x difference) were set to a lower number, but there a few characters that will scale to this number. Yoruichi scales with her Flash Step due to being the Goddess of Flash (recognized as an extremely fast Shinigami) and even while rusty, out-sped Byakuya who already scales to Hypersonic+. Sui-Feng with her Flash Step scales because she scales directly to Yoruichi.
- Gin's Buto Renjin is double his attack speed. Thus, the speed of Gin's Buto Renjin attack is High Hypersonic (Mach 42.6831)
Agree: @Dalesean027 (Midball), @Damage3245 (Lowball, also fine with Extreme Lowball), @LephyrTheRevanchist (Midball), @Random-Helper323 (Midball)
Disagree:
Current Revision Status
Bulbous G
Metastacia
Rangiku
Ikkaku
Yumichika
Mayuri
Nemu
Kūkaku
Last edited: