Introduction
Hello everyone, hope ya'll are having a good day. So last time in the
tier 2 thread, while tier 2 was accepted for Worlds/Space-Times, we didn't get much progress on Worlds and Dimensions being the same or different other than the initial arguments, and due to the lack of translations at the time, it had to be postponed. But now it's time!
Note: Let's
PLEASE keep the assumptions to nonexistent. "Maybe here the World is a planet so Dimensions are actually the universal Worlds", "Maybe Otherworld and Subspace are just different names", "Maybe Other Worlds are Otherworld", "Maybe here Otherworld actually means something else" type things. Argue if you actually think there's faults in it, not just for the sake of arguing with baseless assumptions that uselessly occupy post space.
Additionally, only translations directly from our translation helpers is used here, because arguments relating to "possibly wrong/alternative translations" kept popping up in the previous threads.
Permission received from @FinePoint on Discord!
Also apologies for taking so long for this, even though I said the next thread will be a few days later in the
prev thread, but translations took a while TwT
As always, please avoid derailing the topic or any toxic behavior!
Table of Contents
Before continuing, keep in mind that:
- Otherworld (異界[いかい]) =/= Other Worlds (他世界)
Also, some words were capitalized/localized after receiving permission:
Hi! Could someone translate this? And check this translation? Raws, just in case Isn’t this too much?? Do you want specific parts?
vsbattles.com
This includes:
- otherworld -> Otherworld
- axis world -> Cardinal World
To understand the topic in the simplest way, let's have a look at a few arguments.
Otherworld, Dimensions & Subspace
What is the Otherworld
For those who don't know already, Otherworld is basically the container of Worlds (Universes):
The insect type magical beasts entrusted to Shion and Ranga are in their complete form, and it is true that they are natural enemies to the demon race.
Those are lifeforms from the Otherworld, that dwell in the boundary between material worlds and spiritual worlds.
They are semi spiritual lifeforms, and when they slip into a material world, they naturally achieve incarnation, making them troublesome invaders.
Source
V11C5
Insect-type magic beasts such as Apito, Zegion, and Razul are not merely magic beasts that have the form of insects in truth, they are semi-spiritual bodies that harbor the power of spirits which dwell in the boundary between the material world and the spiritual world, a place called the Otherworld.
As a racial characteristic, they are able to naturally achieve incarnation, freely travel between the spiritual world and the material world, and are said to be invading each realm. Because they possess the characteristics of both matter and spirit, they have strong resistance to both physical attacks and magical attacks, and have become the natural enemies of the demon race. It is also possible for them to evolve due to the influence of magicules, and for the strongest class of insect-type magic beasts, the final evolutionary form becomes humanoid. By becoming humanoid, it becomes possible for them to train and to learn combat methods. Zegion has obtained overwhelming strength by being trained by Veldora, and Apito by being trained by Hinata.
Source
V13.5, World Guide
Suiimu originally swims through the interstellar space of a vast otherworld, even more expansive than a realm that contains countless universes. Its maximum combat speed reaches sub-light speed, and by leaping through space through Otherworld Gates, which are generated as naturally as breathing, it has annihilated innumerable interstellar nations, being nothing other than a natural disaster itself. An Otherworld Gate is a type of Transfer Gate, a spatial transfer intended for ultra-long-distance movement on a universe-scale.
Source
V23C2
Literally visual descriptions that in the Otherworld, Ivarage could see many worlds spreading out.
And before the awakened evil god, there was a gate. A gate leading to the Otherworld, the “Celestial Star Palace.” Beyond this, unknown worlds should be spreading. The many worlds created by Veldanava. If they are crushed and devoured one by one, then surely, someday, he/she will be satisfied.
Source
V22 Prologue
Mai and the others were in the Otherworld and were
observing Universes (and their Flow of Time):
What they were able to understand was that Mai and the others were still drifting in the gap between dimensions. Thanks to Yuuki putting up a mysterious “Barrier,” even in the Otherworld, “Magic Perception” was being activated. They say that an inch ahead is darkness, but truly, outside the “barrier” was an unknown world.
Source
V22C3
From the far end of an unknown Otherworld in the gap between dimensions, the wanderers dreamed of returning and performed a “leaping flight.”
Source
V22C3
The one who muttered this was Yuuki. By observing the flow of time in the Otherworld, Yuuki had also developed immunity to the “Stopped World.” However, that was precisely because Yuuki was a genius. Mai, who should have experienced it together, was, in this aspect, normally left behind.
Source
V23C5
Going outside your "World" into the Otherworld is described as Transcending Time.
At that time, the place they flew to after parting with Rimuru was an Otherworld that had Transcended/surpassed even time.
Source
V13 Epilogue
Cracks into the World from the Otherworld are called Space-Time Gates:
To begin with, as the fundamental problem, there exists the fact that passages for invading into the Otherworld are not easily discovered. Only during special great disasters such as spacetime oscillations something that may or may not occur once in a thousand years do rifts in spacetime open for a short time. With this, dispatching a large army is impossible. At best, it was all they could do to send in an advance unit and have them construct a base. However, in this world, exceptions also exist. Several rifts that connect spacetime are fixed in the world and were fulfilling the role of “gates.” Those are what are called “Netherworld Gates” or “Hell Gates.” If one uses those “gates,” escaping from the Otherworld would also be easy. However, since the “gates” are under the control of the demon race (demons), their use by the invading species (aggressors) is not permitted.
Source
V16 Prologue
Even so, destroying it was impossible. Even in the material world, the primordial ones are powerful existences, and in the Otherworld or the underworld, their power is not restricted.
In the spiritual world and semi-material worlds, where the strength of one’s will is directly converted into influence, they were to the extent of seeming invincible. However, that was the same for Feldway as well. Therefore, even if they fought, no conclusion would be reached, and though feeling bitter, ignoring it became the correct answer. For that reason, returning to the world where Veldanava existed was extremely difficult.
Even if a rift in time and space opened in the Otherworld, what lay beyond was always another world. They tried extending their hand of invasion toward those as well, but such things amounted to nothing more than a way to kill boredom.
Source
V16 Prologue
And visually,
they look like cracks in the canvas of Space-Time itself.
Summary: It's blatantly the Space between Universes (Worlds) and their container, and exists outside Space-Time.
What are Dimensions?
The Otherworld is basically the "Dimensional Space", while "Dimensions" themselves refer to the Dimensional Wall isolating one of it from other Dimensions:
From the evacuation point that connects to the Otherworld, the abandoned thirtieth floor section was visible.
If left as it is, it should eventually be swallowed by an Otherworld and be blown away. In subspace, phase fluctuations are constantly occurring. These are not something that can be predicted, and if one is caught in them, it is impossible to predict which kind of other dimensional space one would be sent to. Because it would be an Otherworld where even the flow of time is distorted, even if one possessed “Spatial Domination,” returning from the place one was sent to the exact same point as now was not realistic.
Velgrynd accomplished that, but that was an exception where coincidence and miracle overlapped.
Source
V21C4
There is also a method of jumping toward the wavelength of the target person, but if they are in a other dimension, they could not be reached. Also, even if the target location’s time axis, positional coordinates, and other information were known, if there were a dimensional wall separating them, Mai’s power could not cross it. This was the reason why Mai gave up returning to her original world. If it is an adjacent dimension, there are cases where the wall can be crossed. However, depending on the dimension, the height of the wall varies, so there were cases where it was impossible no matter what. In that case, there is no choice but to search for something like the “Underworld Gate” and steadily repeat dimensional exploration.
Source
V21C4
When you are in Subspace and get swallowed by an Otherworld, that's what Phase Fluctuations are. The "Otherworld" you get eaten by is Dimensional Space. "Other" (Dimensional Space) refers to the fact that there are multiple Otherworlds (I'll get to that at the end).
Other
Dimensions, on the other hand, are basically whatever is not the Otherworld. Beings from Other Dimensions "invade" the Otherworld:
The Otherworld had order. A semi material world that exists as if overlapping with spiritual worlds such as the Spirit World and the Demon World.
Worlds that never intersect. There, broadly divided, three forces were competing for supremacy.
The Phantom race, which plots the invasion of other worlds. The Insecter race, which aims to expand its place of peaceful settlement. And the Cryptid race, which spends its time in battle and destruction.
There were also forces that came visiting from other dimensions, but they were destroyed, along with their original dimensions, by one of these three forces.
To that extent, these three forces boasted unparalleled martial might.
Source
V16 Prologue
(Invasion means to come from outside a territory to inside it uninvited. Which means beings of those different dimensions were outside the Otherworld itself.
It is also blatantly said that Dimensions contain Worlds:
If this had been drawn into a war of attrition, victory would have been guaranteed. However, given how things have turned out, it seems that the scale of the impact caused by Luvelage’s attacks may extend to
all worlds across every dimension, without exception.
Source
V23C5
In the same Volume, it is also said that Worlds are not Planets, and derivative worlds (Universes) and Dimensions are differentiated as "Worlds and Dimensions" (X and Y).
Without malice, it pursues only its own curiosity its pleasure. That is an act incompatible with harmony. Though being an “individual,” it is “almost” complete, and is unaffected no matter what happens to anything other than itself. That was precisely the terror of the “World Destroying Dragon” Ivaraje.
“Not just this planet, but even the world itself, perhaps it has no need for it…”
Source
V23C1
From Cornu’s perspective, they are nothing but stories that he cannot accept. Feldway’s true objective in trying to rule all dimensions and all worlds was because he intended to revive the god Veldanava. And, through complete domination, he was thinking of eradicating all misfortune. Although it was an extreme ideology of eliminating those who do not submit, if one follows the way of thinking that power is justice, that too was one form of an ideal. And Cornu was one of those who had convinced himself that it was correct. Unlike Obera and Zalario, he was the one who possessed the closest ideology to Feldway. The complete domination of all dimensions and all worlds is still far off, still halfway along the road. This is because, from the Cardinal World created by Veldanava, derivative worlds have been born to such an extent that observation cannot keep up. So that no matter where, among those other worlds, God might reappear, they could respond. This was the foundation of the ideology. However, Veldanava, who is God, had already accomplished his reappearance.
Source
V23C5
Summary: It is heavily hinted that Otherworld = Dimensions.
What is Subspace?
On the other hand, what is
Subspace? It's basically the container of Dimensions, the rift between Dimensions:
Mai Furuki (Mai Furuki) was
drifting in an unknown space where she had jumped with all her might.
It was probably the gap between dimensions, referred to as subspace. Having jumped recklessly from Ramiris’ labyrinth, she had lost track of her coordinates.
Source
V21C4
Although it is inside the labyrinth, there is a proper reason why it is called the “outer edge.”
That place is a gap between time and space.
The labyrinth is an Otherworld namely, it is adjacent to a subspace, and it was located in a place that is also in contact with numerous other dimensional worlds Precisely because of that, if the outside of the labyrinth is the Cardinal World, then it is the inside of the labyrinth that is called the “outer edge.”
Source
Source
V21C4
You jump outside Dimensions (Labyrinth/Otherworld), you arrive in Subspace.
If pressed by necessity, he considers it good to finish it in a quick strike that was the kind of man Dino is. That Dino was the first to jump out into subspace. Following that, Zegion arrived facing Dino.
Source
V21C4
(Dino moved from the Labyrinth [Dimensions] to Subspace)
Yet here's the thing, the Otherworld is said to be literally inside the Dimensional Rift:
From the far end of an unknown Otherworld in the gap between dimensions, the wanderers dreamed of returning and performed a “leaping flight.”
Source
V22C3
And not just as "Otherworlds inside Dimensions inside Subspace", but Subspace is directly adjacent to Otherworld(s) itself. To the point where the Otherworld can "swallow" things drifting in Subspace.
Although it is inside the labyrinth, there is a proper reason why it is called the “outer edge.” That place is a gap between time and space.
The labyrinth is an Otherworld namely, it is
adjacent to a subspace, and it was located in a place that is also in contact with numerous other dimensional worlds Precisely because of that, if the outside of the labyrinth is the Cardinal World, then it is the inside of the labyrinth that is called the “outer edge.”
Source
Source
V21C4
From the evacuation point that connects to the Otherworld, the abandoned thirtieth floor section was visible.
If left as it is, it should eventually be swallowed by an Otherworld and be blown away. In subspace, phase fluctuations are constantly occurring. These are not something that can be predicted, and if one is caught in them, it is impossible to predict which kind of other dimensional space one would be sent to. Because it would be an Otherworld where even the flow of time is distorted, even if one possessed “Spatial Domination,” returning from the place one was sent to the exact same point as now was not realistic.
Velgrynd accomplished that, but that was an exception where coincidence and miracle overlapped.
Source
V21C4
The evacuation point was near the boundary between the Otherworld and Subspace.
Visually it would look like this.
And yes, "Aggressors/Yohma" (residences of the Otherworld) exist in all Dimensions because there are multiple Otherworlds (not Other Worlds), yet they still have to invade different Worlds, meaning worlds aren't dimensions and that there are multiple Otherworlds.
フェルドウェイに飛ばされた『並列存在』と無事に再統合したのは、どことも知れぬ異界の狭間(はざま)だったのだ。
It was the gap between Otherworlds of unknown location where the “Parallel Existence” that had been sent flying to Feldway safely reintegrated.
@RaikiKurohane99 from Direct Messages on Discord
V15 Epilogue
The first place Velgrynd jumped to was a gap between Otherworlds of unknown location. There, without being bound by time, she faced her own inner self. By doing that, she made the Ultimate Skill Flame God King (Cthugha) completely her own.
Source
V17C2
The “Yohma” known to Velgrynd were the phantom race of Yohma, at whose apex stood the Yohma King, Feldway.
They were an aggressive, invasive species that had existed in all possible/conceivable/without-exception dimensions, and they were adversaries Velgrynd had clashed with many times over the course of her long journey.
Source
V17C2
Old/Common Arguments & Counters
- Argument: Other-Dimensional Worlds are called "Another World". That means Dimensions = Worlds.
Answer: Wrong! That is simply abbreviation. Here's an explanation from our translation helper:
diamond arms “Is it ugly? This is my true form—the form of one who has lived through eternal ages and wandered endlessly across the reaches of space-time.” So my friend did the translation and this is the result, is this right or wrong?.
vsbattles.com
- Argument: Universes and Dimensions are used interchangeably in this scan. Also here.
Answer: No. That is just adding variety. This argument is essentially the same as saying that a statement like "it won't just destroy the house we are in, it will destroy the entire neighborhood" means "That the neighborhood is just another house". Changes don't have to be linear. For example, we can say "He's not just the tallest in our class, he's the tallest in the entire neighborhood", and that would be perfectly correct, even though we are skipping the whole "class -> grade -> school -> neighborhood" process.
And as for the japanese nuance itself, it is clarified here:
diamond arms “Is it ugly? This is my true form—the form of one who has lived through eternal ages and wandered endlessly across the reaches of space-time.” So my friend did the translation and this is the result, is this right or wrong?.
vsbattles.com
And somehow the person is arguing that because of this "interchangeable" use (actually not interchangeable), worlds and dimensions aren't different but the same. The author can reword it however he likes. For example, he can say "X may be from a different house, or maybe even a different town", skipping "from another street" and it wouldn't make houses and towns suddenly interchangeable.
And let's not forget, that this is legit dismissing certain plot arguments of worlds =/= dimensions by saying worlds and dimensions are used interchangeably. This is also while admitting that the same term can mean different things at different times. So what is this? It's
bad faith, unnecessarily always assuming the negative for the sake of argument.
(You can ignore the last line, it is just me ranting, the counters are still there to address you)
- Worlds and Dimensions can mean different things at different cases, so "Worlds and Dimensions" is not the same context as "Worlds are Universes".
Answer: No. While sure, context matters, and terms can be used interchangeably, arguing "they are used in a different way here" simply because 2 terms that you assumed were the same are differentiated, is an argument from belief more than from logic. That is especially true when in the same volume, the same chapter, and even the same page, "Worlds" are used as "Universes" and not Planets.
Additionally, arguments like "other worlds are planets" or "worlds/universes are small" was already addressed in the previous thread and that was accepted as debunked, so please do
not use those arguments here. It will simply derail the topic and add no substance whatsoever. Those that do not abide by this will be reported if they keep repeating the same tactic of old arguments.
Also, as I said at the beginning, avoid making assumptions for Veldanava's sake, it just shows bad faith and nothing else. "Worlds are called Universes multiple times" responded by "Worlds uniquely mean different things in all those cases" is just an argument for the sake of arguing. Keep the discussion logical, not emotional or based on beliefs.
Answer: No. The narrator first establishes that Dimensions have different temporal axes. That is already a fact. But then it says that if worlds are synchronized, then there would be no time difference if one jumped between them, but that is also not the case.
The thing is, "Dimensions have different time axes" is a part of a separate sub-topic and the topic of "Worlds have different time axes" is a separate sub-topic.
It goes like this:
There is also a method of jumping toward the wavelength of the target person, but if they are in a other dimension, they could not be reached.
Also, even if the target location’s time axis, positional coordinates, and other information were known, if there were a dimensional wall separating them, Mai’s power could not cross it.
This was the reason why Mai gave up returning to her original world. If it is an adjacent dimension, there are cases where the wall can be crossed.
However, depending on the dimension, the height of the wall varies, so there were cases where it was impossible no matter what. In that case, there is no choice but to search for something like the “Underworld Gate” and steadily repeat dimensional exploration.
Mai has a lifespan equal to infinity, but even so, there is no choice but to conclude that it is impossible. After all, the time axis differs for each dimension.
If it is between worlds in a state where the time axes are synchronized, then even if one performs dimensional travel, there is no time difference. However, realistically, such a phenomenon could not be expected.
Even within the universe of the same world, space continues to expand at a speed exceeding the speed of light. The correlation between time and space is not within the range of Mai’s understanding. Much less, the probability of reaching the time and place where her beloved younger brother is alive was something infinitely close to zero, as if it did not exist.
Source
Source
V21C4
As you can see, first the topic is on different dimensions, then it shifts to different worlds. So they aren't used interchangeably. It's simply that the original argument was brought cuz the lines were isolated from the context.
There is also the fact that Spiritual Lifeforms can just travel between Worlds if its within the same Otherworld.
On that day tens of thousands of years ago, the largest and strongest nation in human history, which had been divided and fighting among itself, disappeared from the surface with surprising ease. The two pillars summoned by Guy had, after all, deteriorated to the level of Arch Demons. That is precisely the law of this world, and when crossing from the underworld to the semi material world, most of their power is lost. For spiritual lifeforms, merely crossing worlds is no difficult task, but in this world, even just maintaining existence caused severe exhaustion.
Source
V16 Epilogue
So it wouldn't make sense of Dimensions that Mai can't cross are the same as worlds with different laws. In fact, it makes more sense to say that the context from Mai would be to travel across worlds of different dimensions, which is indeed harder due to the dimensional wall.
It also makes it clear that Mai's ability is limited to not being able to cross Dimensions, it doesn't say anything about not being able to cross worlds themselves
There is also a method of jumping toward the wavelength of the target person, but if they are in a other dimension, they could not be reached.
Source
- Aggressors existing in all possible dimensions is limited to conceivability/perception of the person saying it.
Answer: It isn't limited to perception, the kanji just means generally all of something without an exception, as
@RaikiKurohane99 explained here:
Hello, can someone please confirm if this translation is correct?? Yes, it is correct, but you need to replace specter with Phantom
vsbattles.com
Additionally, even IF it was perspective limited, Velgrynd actually travelled to all worlds, so it wouldn't matter:
Therefore, Velgrynd remembered all worlds and all Rudras.
Source
V17C2
And as proven in the main OP that worlds are inside dimensions/Otherworlds, it means her statement is factual in all regards.
- This argument that there is no context to what kind of worlds Spiritual Lifeforms are crossing.
Answer: The context, as shown in the above scan, is about traveling from the Spiritual World (Underworld) to the Semi-Material World. We already know Otherworld is the space between worlds, including physical and spiritual ones, and is vaster than multiple Universes, so now we know; they are travelling between universes.
- There is this argument that because crossing dimensions depends on how close their walls are, and because worlds also have a "similar" case, worlds = dimensions.
Answer: This is another one that makes me think that its bad faith, but oh well.
The thing with dimensions is whether you can even cross it or not, and that if the dimensional walls are close, crossing is sometimes possible.
On the other hand, the thing with cross-world travel is that you can simply travel between worlds if you're an SLF, like from a spiritual one to a semi-physical one, the problem instead is that you need to acquire physical bodies to permanently stay there. Though this is once again a thing unique to the Cardinal World as one if its Laws set by Veldanava, that SLFs when coming from other worlds to this one are weakened and the magicule consumption for maintaining a temporary body are extremely high.
The two have nothing to do with each other, it's not even the same problem — One is about whether you can enter X or not at all, the other is that entering a specific Y (Cardinal world) has some problems but this doesn't apply to all of them (since it's literally stated in the same context that the problem is unique to CW, and that SLF can easily cross worlds otherwise).
Calling it a "character and ability issue" is, therefore, arguing for the sake of arguing, because the context literally says its a general thing. Going to different dimensions is case-by-case, going to different worlds in the same Otherworld is not case-by-case UNLESS its the cardinal world we're talking about.
Hell, there are statements that Feldway and the rest can go to different worlds and invade, but they can't go to the Otherworld and instead need to invade the labyrinth. Which, well, is a different Otherworld adjacent to Subspace (gap-between-dimensions)
- The argument that Mai is limited to a single world and a single dimension so worlds = dimensions
Answer: This is just... false. Mai is an SLF as a matter of fact, and SLFs can cross worlds in general, yet she is limited to a single dimension due to the dimensional wall.
- There is this scan about Dimension being cut and the Otherworld being opened, which may be used to argue that worlds = dimensions since Otherworld contains Worlds.
Answer: This is a matter of context, and is actually the case of the term "Dimension" being used as Space.
And this is actually explained in the Clayman Spinoff.
- A Rift in Space opens, leading to the Otherworld.
- Visually looks like exactly that.
- That same rift is also called "A dimensional rift/rift in dimensions".
Other examples include:
- Spatial Severance being called Dimensional Severance.
- Dimensions actually being used as Spatial Dimensions.
So its clear that
Obviously we don't assume all cases of dimensions refer to spatial dimensions/dimensions of space (or if we do, give me my 1-B lol), but the context here is specifically "cutting".
Summary
So here's what is being proposed:
- Worlds and Dimensions are not the same in the same context that Worlds are Derivative Universes, and in similar contexts it is said that Dimensions contain worlds.
- Otherworld is what we call Dimensions, directly called "Dimensional Space" and said to contain worlds/universes, while other dimensions are still outside it. Each Dimension is technically an Otherworld.
- Otherworld is 2C for containing multiple Worlds (Universes)
Votes
Agree: KingTempest, Elizhaa, Planck69
Disagree:
Neutral:
_________________________
That was all. Hope you enjoyed reading~!
