ALttP and ALBW Link Upscale, Master Sword scaling, Calamity Ganon Moon Level Feat and how it upscales Demise.

[Lgamer099_99]

I will explain why Link from The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past definitely scales from the Full Triforce. This claim has been contested in the general Zelda thread before, but I have new supporting evidence.
The Golden Master Sword is explicitly defined as the most powerful version of the Master Sword available to Link.

"The Master Sword, made ultimate! Now it's the fiercest blade imaginable!" — Gear (A Link Between Worlds)

We often overlook a fundamental principle of the Master Sword: its ability to store and be imbued with divine energy
In Hyrule Historia, the True Master Sword is differentiated from the base version precisely because it contains a greater amount of sacred energy, giving it its true form and strength. We see the same mechanic in Tears of the Kingdom: Zelda chooses to become a dragon to store and accumulate divine energy within the Master Sword for millennia.
While the Link from A Link to the Past and A Link Between Worlds (its direct sequel) are technically the same hero and carry the same sword, their AP (Attack Potency) isn't necessarily identical. In ALttP, Link receives the Golden Master Sword from the Fat Fairy in the Dark World. This entity could have imbued the blade with a significantly higher amount of magical and divine energy compared to the version seen in ALBW.

The Golden Sword is a magical blade created by a benevolent fairy in the Mysterious Pond. When a normal sword is thrown into the water, the fairy uses her ancient magic to create this powerful weapon with a gold-toned blade." — The Great Hyrule Encyclopedia, Zelda.com (archive), retrieved January 22, 2022.

Furthermore, the fact that Ganon possesses the Full Triforce in ALttP is a crucial narrative element. Claiming that Link's victory is a 'plot outlier' or 'invalid' ignores the core of the game and the lore, which has never been contradicted. We have a similar case here on the wiki with Castlevania: some argued that Erzebet’s eclipse feat in the Netflix series shouldn't scale because it supposedly contradicted previous elements or because 'Dracula should be superior.' However, these arguments are often arbitrary. In ALttP, we see someone actually using the Full Triforce in combat. Nothing in the lore states that a Full Triforce wielder is unbeatable in a fight; it is omnipotent as a wish-granting relic, but the user is not necessarily invincible. (and still in ALBW people could destroy their own triforce)
Scaling for Calamity Ganon, Demise, and Hylia:
I also propose an upscale for Calamity Ganon. In Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf is scaled to Moon Level for the Blood Moon feats. However, when Calamity Ganon performs the exact same feat in Breath of the Wild, it’s often dismissed as an outlier because he is damaged by the Divine Beasts (scaled to City Level). This is inconsistent. Guides like Creating a Champion confirm the Blood Moon is the product of Calamity Ganon’s power when it reaches its zenith. If TotK Ganondorf scales, Calamity Ganon should too.
Consequently, this leads to an upscale for Demise and Hylia. Calamity Ganon is the incarnation of the hatred and malice of Ganondorf, who is himself the incarnation of Demise’s hatred. It is logically sound that Demise scales above the mere 'manifestation of hatred' of his own reincarnation.

Other potential scaling: Post-TotK guides confirm the three Elemental Dragons served Goddess Hylia and underwent 'draconification' potentially via Secret Stones. Draconification is presented as a specific reach of power, sacrificing one's self to reach a 'culmination' of strength. If the dragons are comparable to Secret Stone users and were corrupted by Calamity Ganon’s malice, they COULD also scale to these higher tiers.

At least Based on the Golden Master Sword being the strongest version of the blade imaginable, ALttP and ALBW Link should scale above TotK Link (who uses a Master Sword imbued with divine energy but not 'upgraded' to the Golden form).

Also, it's a canonical fact that the classical master sword attacks bounce off from Ganon in alttp, if the golden master sword could harm Ganon because of his anti evil hax then this should have been the case for the classic Ms as well. This implies a gap in power. Nothing in the lore states that a Triforce wielder cannot be defeated in combat. The Triforce is an object of desire and a wish-granting engine, but it doesn't grant the user passive 'unbeatable' status. In fact, we know the Triforce itself is not indestructible: in the equivalent version found in A Link Between Worlds, the Triforce of Lorule was actually destroyed. If the source of power can be destroyed or recreated, it follows that a wielder can be overpowered by a sufficient force, like a Hero armed with the Golden Master Sword.

I hope no ones brings the "you can finish the game with normal MS" argument cause we know that for lore this isn't true, just like you can defeat Majora without FD but in lore you use the mask. That's all for now.

 

[Theglassman12]

Idk why you’re bringing up Netflix Castlevania here when it has nothing to do with Zelda so enough with the whataboutisms, but Full Triforce isn’t scaling to ALTTP Ganon because he never absorbed it during his fight with Link, it’s in a completely separate room so Ganon scaling to the full triforce during the game is unfounded here. If you have any proof that Ganon’s being amped by the full triforce during the game I’d like to see it.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Idk why you’re bringing up Netflix Castlevania here when it has nothing to do with Zelda so enough with the whataboutisms, but Full Triforce isn’t scaling to ALTTP Ganon because he never absorbed it during his fight with Link, it’s in a completely separate room so Ganon scaling to the full triforce during the game is unfounded here. If you have any proof that Ganon’s being amped by the full triforce during the game I’d like to see it.

It's currently accepted in the wiki that Ganon is being empowered by the full triforce, in the genral thread many people used the outlier argument for telling me that while Ganon scales to the Triforce, ALTTP Link shouldn't because of the "outlier" argument when several guides confirm that their fight took entire days and it's the plot of ALTTP. But sure, there are several proofs of this.
Hyrule historia states:

“The Ganondorf of this timeline is able to wield magic due to his possession of the Triforce of Power. However, since Link was able to warn Princess Zelda of the future, Ganondorf did not enter the Sacred Realm or lay his hands on the completed Triforce. Link returning from the future bearing the Triforce of Courage made it so that Ganondorf was unable to consolidate the omnipotent power of the Triforce within himself.”

Hyrule historia is the source, this implies that while OOT Ganon failed to do so, ALTTP Ganon's entire plot is that he did it, he consolidated that power within himself. The room argument is meh, in ALBW which is the direct sequel, even after u defeat Yuganon who has 2 pieces of triforce within himself you can still find the full triforce outside of that room. I think this was addressed already in other threads.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes he has scaling to the full triforce during the sealing war, something Link and Zelda were not a part of, so idk why you’re conflating that as to claiming he just automatically lets Link and company scale.

It’s literally not meh when we see original Zelda Ganondorf had a piece of the triforce inside of his body when he died, that’s one of the major points against ALTTP remotely scaling to the full triforce. The fact it’s not in his body and is in fact in another room means he wasn’t empowered by the full triforce. ALBW doesn’t help your case since it’s still not the full triforce that’s empowering him.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Yes he has scaling to the full triforce during the sealing war, something Link and Zelda were not a part of, so idk why you’re conflating that as to claiming he just automatically lets Link and company scale.

It’s literally not meh when we see original Zelda Ganondorf had a piece of the triforce inside of his body when he died, that’s one of the major points against ALTTP remotely scaling to the full triforce. The fact it’s not in his body and is in fact in another room means he wasn’t empowered by the full triforce. ALBW doesn’t help your case since it’s still not the full triforce that’s empowering him.

ALBw is helping my case since it's literally Yuganon having within his body two pieces of the triforce, and yet they magical appear with the third one in an other room entirely. This is just a classic game thing, like finding the Princess Peach in the other room after defeating bowser, it is not a way for the lore to tell you oh but Ganon had for some reason the triforce on the other room and didn't use it.
Plus, literally goes against in-game statement.

Before your first battle with him in the Tower of the Dark World Castle, Agahnim taunts you with the following line, revealing Ganon's hold on the artifact:"After all, the legendary Hero cannot defeat us, the tribe of evil, when we are armed with the Power of Gold."ホォッホッホッ…。　これで
７賢者の封印も　めでたく
とかれたワケですなあ。

魔の力が、この国をおおいつく
すのも時間のもんだいですぞ…

しょせん伝説の『勇者』も
『黄金の力』を持つ、われらが
魔族には、かないませんか。

ホォッホッホッ　さらばじゃ！
So, in the end, is even the legendary "Hero" is no match for we demons who hold the "Golden Power". Ho, ho, ho, farewell!

I don't think that Aganhnim is lying or got mad for some reason.
Also Alttp official manual literally states Agahnim himself is being empowerd by the Triforce.

 

[Theglassman12]

How does it being a classical game thing debunk the fact that the original NES we see Ganon’s triforce piece from his dead body? They show that he had his triforce in his body in that game, plus 2 triforce pieces doesn’t help solidify full triforce scaling for other Ganons when there’s a huge power gap between individual pieces and the full set.

Isn’t Nintendo player guide not reliable? I’ve seen lots of folks say those guides aren’t helping for the scaling given the contradictions between them and the games.

 

[Nierre]

Can we get some scans/links (heh) in the OP? I'm unable to verify anything here if there are no scans.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

How does it being a classical game thing debunk the fact that the original NES we see Ganon’s triforce piece from his dead body? They show that he had his triforce in his body in that game, plus 2 triforce pieces doesn’t help solidify full triforce scaling for other Ganons when there’s a huge power gap between individual pieces and the full set.

Isn’t Nintendo player guide not reliable? I’ve seen lots of folks say those guides aren’t helping for the scaling given the contradictions between them and the games.

There is only one major contradiction about the Ms origin, but it's actually not a contradiction to the game itself. The Ms origin was retconned, and in other works like WW Ganondorf actually states that hylians created the MS so you know, it's more like a SS retcon than the guide being invalid, there isn't a single thing that contradicts the game itself.

Can we get some scans/links (heh) in the OP? I'm unable to verify anything here if there are no scans.

Sure I'll post the scans for the stuff in the op and the other things in the reply in the next hours, give me some time since they shot down the Google archive for the databooks but I should have something saved.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Can we get some scans/links (heh) in the OP? I'm unable to verify anything here if there are no scans.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160308195651/http://zelda.com/universe/pedia/g.jsp#GoldenSword
https://ia801607.us.archive.org/Boo...TheLegendOfZeldaEncyclopedia&scale=2&rotate=0


Here some links about how sword works, how the Great fairies and other spirits give power to the sword etc.

Here you can find the google doc to the dragons thing mentioned in the op:


Here official guide calling golden master sword the ultime form of the master sword (so at least upscale from Totk Link's MS as Large Planet level weapon)

https://ia801607.us.archive.org/Boo...TheLegendOfZeldaEncyclopedia&scale=2&rotate=0

blood moon calamity ganon physical page 406 but thumbnail 410 that you can select.
https://anyflip.com/bwiut/osvz/basic

 

[Theglassman12]

I feel like if the MS origin being retconned, something Skyward Sword makes a big deal out of btw with Fi, makes the info on the guide invalidated, idk why I should assume the rest of the guide can be invalidated.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I disagree with everything here (Well except Ganon having the Triforce during the final battle in ALTTP, he should have it there but like everyone said in the general discussion thread Link wouldn't scale), I'll go into more detail later, unless someone else beats me to it, but do wanna point out we are not using Nintendo Power / Players Guides for lore like this.

The ALTTP guide is based on the English localisation which had a lot of wrong and downright bizarre changes, the golden goddesses as far the NOA version of ALTTP is concerned are aliens from another solar system for example. The guides lore for the Master Sword is wrong because the original Japanese backstory for the game explicitly has the sword existing long before Ganon got the Triforce and it's purpose was to counter evil forces that want to use the Triforce instead of countering the Triforce itself.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I feel like if the MS origin being retconned, something Skyward Sword makes a big deal out of btw with Fi, makes the info on the guide invalidated, idk why I should assume the rest of the guide can be invalidated.

I feel like if the MS origin being retconned, something Skyward Sword makes a big deal out of btw with Fi, makes the info on the guide invalidated, idk why I should assume the rest of the guide can be invalidated.

Because the MS being created by hylians is something stated in other games as well like wind walker by Ganondorf and twilight princess as well. Zelda is full of such retcons, at first all the Zelda were called like this for the story displayed in Zelda II where the prince out of guilt for the original Zelda (his sister, and she is called the first) all the lineage had this law to call their daughter as such. With Skyward sword this was retconned as well, but if a guide of that period of the time of the game says that Zelda from II was the first this doesn't make the guide of that game invalid, because that was the actual truth information during that time.
Even the golden goddesses origins bla bla, the guide doesn't ever contradict the game.

Also, still, Aganhim statement exist, he literally says the hero is no match for them who have the golden power, if they weren't use such power this entire statement magically doesn't make sense.

I disagree with everything here (Well except Ganon having the Triforce during the final battle in ALTTP, he should have it there but like everyone said in the general discussion thread Link wouldn't scale), I'll go into more detail later, unless someone else beats me to it, but do wanna point out we are not using Nintendo Power / Players Guides for lore like this.

The ALTTP guide is based on the English localisation which had a lot of wrong and downright bizarre changes, the golden goddesses as far the NOA version of ALTTP is concerned are aliens from another solar system for example. The guides lore for the Master Sword is wrong because the original Japanese backstory for the game explicitly has the sword existing long before Ganon got the Triforce and it's purpose was to counter evil forces that want to use the Triforce instead of countering the Triforce itself.

Replied above to this thing, plus especially if you agree Ganon is using it then you call cannot say Link doesn't scale because that's essentially the entire Lore incipit of that game, that I repeat was never retconned later on with his direct sequel ALBW. Saying it's an outlier, it's like the same arguments that other people bringed for Netflixvania saying that Erzebeth eclipse fear was outlier because consistency, because Dracula was several tiers below etc. Not really an argument.

Also, to make it more clear, I also addressed how calamity Ganon is canonically causing blood moons, he should scale to the 5-C Calc, and Hylia and Demise should scale above that because that was literally a power displayed by a suppress by Zelda hatred incarnation of Ganondorf, who is he himself the incarnation of hatred of demise. Also elemental dragons who serve Hylia, so their inferior, were possibly secret stones users and we've seen that they gave powers comparable to 5-A Ganondorf to other characters, and this without the draconification that is portrayed as a precise tier of power. This would scale Hylia potentially further more, I'd give a likely 5-A rating and this would upscale true Master sword as well for SS Link leading to Alttp and ALBW scaling to at least 5-A since guides literally state as I sent that golden MS is the ultimate strongest Ms. There isn't really a debunk to this. It's stuff that for some bias no one ever pointed out.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Because the MS being created by hylians is something stated in other games as well like wind walker by Ganondorf and twilight princess as well. Zelda is full of such retcons, at first all the Zelda were called like this for the story displayed in Zelda II where the prince out of guilt for the original Zelda (his sister, and she is called the first) all the lineage had this law to call their daughter as such. With Skyward sword this was retconned as well, but if a guide of that period of the time of the game says that Zelda from II was the first this doesn't make the guide of that game invalid, because that was the actual truth information during that time.
Even the golden goddesses origins bla bla, the guide doesn't ever contradict the game.

The guide you're bringing up isn't using lore that was only retconned later on, the guide is using lore from the NOA translation which already changed things from the original japanese version. The origin of the Golden Goddesses and what they created is pretty much the same in ALTTP as it still is today, but the english localision including the guide you're using only has the goddesses creating the planet Hyrule exists on and going back to their home which is a "distant nebula", the Master Sword in ALTTP was made long before the Sealing War, but the guide you're using is based on lore saying it was made in response to the Sealing War and specififcally as a direct counter to the Triforce itself.

This is a guide written by someone who didn't write the original japanese story and lore for ALTTP, and who based their new lore on a translation which changed the already existing lore by the original writers from NOJ. It's a good book, I like the way it's presented and everything, but it's not a realiable source for actual Zelda lore.

Also, still, Aganhim statement exist, he literally says the hero is no match for them who have the golden power, if they weren't use such power this entire statement magically doesn't make sense.

Where they have the Triforce, but that doesn't mean the entire Demon Tribe is being actively empowered by a notable portion of the Triforce at all times. Just that they have the Golden Power on their side because their leader obtained it. You wouldn't say a soldier is being empowered by a tank just because they said "yeah man you can't beat us we got a massive tank on our side", and even besides that Agahnim wouldn't be getting empowered by a signifcant enough portion of the Triforces power to have any relevance to endgame Link scaling to it's full output.

plus especially if you agree Ganon is using it then you call cannot say Link doesn't scale because that's essentially the entire Lore incipit of that game, that I repeat was never retconned later on with his direct sequel ALBW

I can say Link doesn't scale and I will say he doesn't scale. As already explained to you on the general discussion thread, nobody's denying the fight happened or was retconned, just that later lore would retroactively make Link beating him an outlier due to the Triforce being so comically far above anything that isn't the Golden Goddesses that there's no way a single great fairy is actually nearly as strong as the full might of the Triforce in order to make the Golden Sword as powerful as it is, esspecially when guides treat the Golden Sword in both ALTTP and ALBW as being the exact same with no difference in power, yet Yuga with just the Triforce of Power was too strong for ALBW Link to deal with until he got the Triforce of Courage.

Plus even ignoring all that, Link explictly doesn't beat (And can't beat) Ganon via his own strength anyway. The Golden Master Sword can't actually do real damage to Ganon, it can only briefly stun him so that he's open to getting hit by the actual only weapon that can harm him, the Silver Arrows, which even then only defeat him by piercing his soul which is textbook durability negation. If Link goes into the fight with just the Golden Sword he straight up can't do any actual damage to Ganon, he can briefly stun him because the sword has the funny anti-evil magic, but never harm or defeat him. If all he had was just the Golden Sword with no way to obtain Silver Arrows, all he would do to Ganon is minorly inconvenience him before getting murdered. Plus ALTTP has equipment that basically makes Ganon having the full Triforce moot anyway, Magic Cape makes him intangible to all of Ganon's attacks, and the Moon Pearl directly harnesses the power of the Triforce regardless of who wields it in order to effectively make it impossible for it's magic to be directly at Link. He's going into this fight with a dura negating weapon which is shown and stated to be the one thing that can defeat Ganon, a cape that makes it so he doesn't need to worry about getting hit, and a pearl that tells the Triforce to **** off whenever it's magic tries to affect Link.

Also something I wanna ask;

Nothing in the lore states that a Full Triforce wielder is unbeatable in a fight; it is omnipotent as a wish-granting relic, but the user is not necessarily invincible.

The Triforce is an object of desire and a wish-granting engine, but it doesn't grant the user passive 'unbeatable' status. In fact, we know the Triforce itself is not indestructible

Are you arguing that the Triforces wish-granting is seperate from the raw power it grants it's user? That's the only interpertation I can make out of you bringing up it's wish granting being omnipotent only to mention the user can be defeated, which would completely go against your proposal of Link scaling to it in the first place.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Based on Dust and theglassman's arguments, I disagree with the OP for now

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Where they have the Triforce, but that doesn't mean the entire Demon Tribe is being actively empowered by a notable portion of the Triforce at all times.

It doesn't matter, sent it as a counter argument to Glass, who thinks ganon wasn't using it against final battle according to him, which that sentence wouldn't make sense if at least Ganon doesn't uses it.

Are you arguing that the Triforces wish-granting is seperate from the raw power it grants it's user? That's the only interpertation I can make out of you bringing up it's wish granting being omnipotent only to mention the user can be defeated, which would completely go against your proposal of Link scaling to it in the first

I think it scales to the Reality warping thing, that Ganon actively keeps warping according to the guide you dislike, but I am a believer of that still.
But for example, I think the Triforce itself could be 2-C while Ganon's feat is 3-A which is what Link would scale to. Also would u address the other things in the thread? It's not one proposal.

Based on Dust and theglassman's arguments, I disagree with the OP for now

They think two different things completely tho, and they only addressed one part of the proposal, there are blood moon, and overall scaling the golden sword and Hylia to the botw and totk feats.

Also, @Theglassman12 if you would change your mind about Ganon having the Triforce in the final fight, would you then consider Link beating him an outlier or you would think he should rightfully scale?

 

[Dust_Collector]

But for example, I think the Triforce itself could be 2-C while Ganon's feat is 3-A which is what Link would scale to.

But Ganon explicitly took in the full power of the Triforce, he's 2-C (Or will be 2-C when the CRT gets eventually made to upgrade the complete Triforce) during the entire time he had it. It's why the whole argument regarding the lore making the Triforce >>>>Infinity>>>>The entire verse was made for why Link scaling to Ganon in stats made no sense.

In regards to the Demise and Hylia stuff I'll be real I just forgot because I was hyper focused on the proposal of making Link universal via scaling to the complete Triforce lol. I'll have a read and give my thoughts in a lil' while.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

But Ganon explicitly took in the full power of the Triforce, he's 2-C (Or will be 2-C when the CRT gets eventually made to upgrade the complete Triforce) during the entire time he had it. It's why the whole argument regarding the lore making the Triforce >>>>Infinity>>>>The entire verse was made for why Link scaling to Ganon in stats made no sense.

In regards to the Demise and Hylia stuff I'll be real I just forgot because I was hyper focused on the proposal of making Link universal via scaling to the complete Triforce lol. I'll have a read and give my thoughts in a lil' while.

Well, for me it does make sense. I am not scaling Link to the might of the goddesses, they left some of thier power into it. It's just like Soma beating his own Chaos to me. Why is triforce's omnipotent if the goddesses are literally way above? Something being stated as above mortals etc doesn't mean it's like always it, it's super cliché in fiction, it's not reslly different from dragon ball cyborgs surpassing SSG the realm of gods so powerful goku couldn't even imagine such realm of power ecxisted before bog.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

disagree FRA

 

[Lgamer099_99]

disagree FRA

which didn't adress the full topic. Why is everyone ignoring this?

 

[Maniaunavailable]

which didn't adress the full topic. Why is everyone ignoring this?

literally glassman makes a lot more sense here

 

[Lgamer099_99]

literally glassman makes a lot more sense here

Glassman literally replied to one proposal out of many other ones. There is calamity ganon feat, hylia, demise and ss scaling from that, the dragons argument as well and sword scaling to 5-C to 5-A and the only thing addressed was 3-A Link, poorly since the argument is ganon doesn't use triforce after war, but his minion litetally states they got it and for this the hero is no match lol

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Glassman literally replied to one proposal out of many other ones. There is calamity ganon feat, hylia, demise and ss scaling from that, the dragons argument as well and sword scaling to 5-C to 5-A and the only thing addressed was 3-A Link, poorly since the argument is ganon doesn't use triforce after war, but his minion litetally states they got it and for this the hero is no match lol

3-A nah, possibly 5-C ,maybe

 

[Lgamer099_99]

3-A nah, possibly 5-C ,maybe

I'll make it more clear. My proposal outside of 3-A ALTTP Link is:

5-A ALBW Link because Golden MS > MS that totk Link uses (it has a lot of divine energy, but golden ms it's called strongest blade imaginable, I just thought that a lot of energized golden ms could scale to 3-A for alttp link), but if golden MS > totk MS gets rejected it should still scale to 5-C as at least because of true MS from SS, now i'll explain

5-C hylia, demise, and SS Link so true master sword (who is different from classical because of more blessing and divine energy, guides make it clear, but confirmed below GOLDEN MS) because they should scale above calamity ganon who is causing a 5-C already calculated blood moon feat.

Possibly all 5-A if we accept the totk guide saying Dragons went over draconification of stone gems and we have seen stone gems users scaling from 5-A ganondorf (not dragon one)

so the scale would be:
if only 5-C accepted:

ALBW Link > hylia = demise = link SS > calamity ganon

if dragons or golden MS > totk MS or both upscale to 5-A accepted

ALBW Link > Totk Link > Dragon Ganon > Hylia = SS Link = Demise > Dragons (5-A) = stone gem ganondorf >>> Calamity Ganon (5C)

ALTTP Link if 3-A doesn't get accepted he would at least scale a bit below ALBW Link

 

[Dust_Collector]

The issue with the Golden Sword being called the strongest blade in ALBW is that in universe it doesn't work with the 5-A scaling in TOTK. ALTTP and ALBW take place several tens of thousands of years before the wild era games so can't really count a roided out version of the sword that doesn't exist yet as part of that statement, and it doesn't work as word of god either since ALBW was developed and written long before the idea of TOTK, and thus a Light Dragon empowered Master Sword, was even in anyones mind.

For Calamity Ganon we know from TOTK and also recently Age of Imprisonment that the blood moon only started happening as a result of the real Ganondorf after he became the demon king, his power still seeped out into the world despite his seal (Otherwise Calamity Ganon wouldn't exist) so it's hard to argue that the calamity is the one messing with the moon instead of Ganondorf's magic leaking out every now and then. Statement from creating a champion is cool and all but the lore in that book also treats Calamity Ganon as a transformed state of the Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time / Twilight Princess / A Link to the Past / etc..., only for TOTK to come out and say "nah man Calamity Ganon is a bootleg manifestation of a different Ganondorf", the book doesn't take into account the fact that the Ganondorf in TOTK created the blood moon in the first place and that his power sometimes slips out, it's just one of the like billion retcons the series does, before 2023 you could make a strong argument for the calamity causing the blood moon, nowadays not so much. Doesn't help that the ingame portrayal of the blood moon in BOTW and Age of Calamity makes it seem like a natural event (as natural as a corpse leaking unholy blood magic can be) that empowers Calamity Ganon when it happens.

I'm too tired to go over the elemental dragons, I'll give my thoughts tomorrow after I finish work.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

The issue with the Golden Sword being called the strongest blade in ALBW is that in universe it doesn't work with the 5-A scaling in TOTK. ALTTP and ALBW take place several tens of thousands of years before the wild era games so can't really count a roided out version of the sword that doesn't exist yet as part of that statement, and it doesn't work as word of god either since ALBW was developed and written long before the idea of TOTK, and thus a Light Dragon empowered Master Sword, was even in anyones mind.

For Calamity Ganon we know from TOTK and also recently Age of Imprisonment that the blood moon only started happening as a result of the real Ganondorf after he became the demon king, his power still seeped out into the world despite his seal (Otherwise Calamity Ganon wouldn't exist) so it's hard to argue that the calamity is the one messing with the moon instead of Ganondorf's magic leaking out every now and then. Statement from creating a champion is cool and all but the lore in that book also treats Calamity Ganon as a transformed state of the Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time / Twilight Princess / A Link to the Past / etc..., only for TOTK to come out and say "nah man Calamity Ganon is a bootleg manifestation of a different Ganondorf", the book doesn't take into account the fact that the Ganondorf in TOTK created the blood moon in the first place and that his power sometimes slips out, it's just one of the like billion retcons the series does, before 2023 you could make a strong argument for the calamity causing the blood moon, nowadays not so much. Doesn't help that the ingame portrayal of the blood moon in BOTW and Age of Calamity makes it seem like a natural event (as natural as a corpse leaking unholy blood magic can be) that empowers Calamity Ganon when it happens.

I'm too tired to go over the elemental dragons, I'll give my thoughts tomorrow after I finish work.

Disagree with natural event argument, even totk got people studying the phenomenon and treating it as "natural", but this is out of characters ignorance and it is clearly linked to Ganon ofc. Also, since calamity Ganon is the result of Ganondorf, it really isn't a contradiction that Ganondorf's hate is so powerful that when he reaches its peak it accidentally causes blood moons. Does the feat have to be made actively? I think that it is a passive result.

Also, even though we correctly say that an amped by stone, Triforce etc Ganondorf rightfully scales above Demise, why a mummified not using his stone Ganondorf would scale above him? Also, again, guides get some past lore retcons, but it is difficult for them to be wrong about the in-game stuff honestly, they usually just give more insight.

Also the Ms is a bit inconsistent in Totk continuity, in the most recent game yeah the Ms shard is in a construct sure, but several things implies that it's the power of the ms that makes it super powerful and scalable to 5-A Ganondorf, yet the Ms was destroyed by mummy Ganondorf.

I do think that golden master sword being the peak should count as word of God, because it has happened several times in the franchise that the sword got powered up by energy like twilight suns and the likes.
But I see this counter argument as reasonable, not far stretched and its a valid opinion, since it's true that it wasn't out yet. For the dragons I'll wait, but honestly I would like to ask people what they would think about 3-A alttp Link if they start with the idea that Ganon used the Triforce, because a main issue overall should be solving this as well.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

Well the issue is what reason would we have to assume Calamity Ganon was doing it instead of Ganondorfs body? Everything in the lore associates the rising of the blood moon with his power, and we know his power does still leak out even before Raurus seal broke in the great calamity, albeit just a fraction of it. The lore of Calamity Ganon and his power was retconned between BOTW and TOTK, originally yeah he was a transformation of OOT Ganondorf and the blood moon was his doing according to creating a champion, but now Calamity Ganon is a glorified Phantom Ganon created by the residue power of Ganondorf who was shown and stated to have started the blood moon phenomenon in the first place.

Master Swords having a weird bit of power scaling in Age of Imprisonment doesn't mean much, for the most part the constructs power is treated as just it being strong as hell and then there's TOTK establishing weakened crusty Ganondorf >>>>> Master Sword. That shard powering the construct doesn't really do much for Calamity Ganon or Demise scaling.

For the elemental dragons I'd be hesitant on scaling them to Ganondorf too. The stones aren't a set boost that automatically make the user 5-A, they multiply the users innate power. This is stated several times and even shown in the games where Rauru and the Sages gave themselves every advantage possible in their 7v1 against Ganondorf only for them to heavily struggle with him while he was holding back and then quickly get low diffed once he got bored and put in actual effort. Mummy Ganondorf also can't bring the moon as close as he can at his full power or move it as fast, hence why he's 5-C while full power is 5-A.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Well the issue is what reason would we have to assume Calamity Ganon was doing it instead of Ganondorfs body?

Because the body is sealed and calamity Ganon is still a product of his, so he is doing it in a certain way. This way, canonical source saying calamity Ganon causes it doesn't randomly get discarded, saying that Ganondorf's power causes it is true, his hatred (calamity Ganon) at his peak does.

For the elemental dragons I'd be hesitant on scaling them to Ganondorf too. The stones aren't a set boost that automatically make the user 5-A, they multiply the users innate power.

Generally yes, but the full extent of the power makes you become a dragon and it's implied that draconification puts you on a certain level for every dragon more or less, and yet they below Hylia. We are using base stone gem users to debunk that draconification caused by the full maximum extent of the gems is treated in a certain way, making you a dragon. The game, the lore etc basically are telling you, you wanna become a dragon, the super powerful creature? Use the stone, and yet they are portrayed below Hylia and are below her hierarchy wise. I do agree that stone gems aren't in their "base forms" a set boost, but a multiplier, but the draconification caused by them which is a stage further is actually portrayed as a set boost, that's the argument.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Because the body is sealed and calamity Ganon is still a product of his, so he is doing it in a certain way. This way, canonical source saying calamity Ganon causes it doesn't randomly get discarded, saying that Ganondorf's power causes it is true, his hatred (calamity Ganon) at his peak does.

Canonical source that came out before TOTK, like everything they say after BOTW and Creating a Champion attributes blood moons to Ganondorf, it's simply a retcon which is why we didn't bother upgrading Calamity Ganon when TOTK came out.

Generally yes, but the full extent of the power makes you become a dragon and it's implied that draconification puts you on a certain level for every dragon more or less, and yet they below Hylia. We are using base stone gem users to debunk that draconification caused by the full maximum extent of the gems is treated in a certain way, making you a dragon. The game, the lore etc basically are telling you, you wanna become a dragon, the super powerful creature? Use the stone, and yet they are portrayed below Hylia and are below her hierarchy wise. I do agree that stone gems aren't in their "base forms" a set boost, but a multiplier, but the draconification caused by them which is a stage further is actually portrayed as a set boost, that's the argument.

They never say or even hint that swallowing a secret stone and becoming a dragon makes everyone who does it on roughly the same level. The description for Ganondorf specifically notes the transformation allowed him to reach "his true power", not true power in general specifically his. The Demon Dragon is so strong that only a roided out Master Sword can damage it, all other attacks would do nothing to him despite the Light Dragon activity helping Link in the fight and the other dragons existing. Hell, the Light Dragon was charging the Master Sword for over well over 10,000 years and while it did allow Link to beat Ganondorf, it wasn't one sided Ganondorf still put it enough of a fight and withstood enough blows to feel confident he could still take Link 1v1 once he knocked the modern sages away.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Canonical source that came out before TOTK, like everything they say after BOTW and Creating a Champion attributes blood moons to Ganondorf, it's simply a retcon which is why we didn't bother upgrading Calamity Ganon when TOTK came out.



They never say or even hint that swallowing a secret stone and becoming a dragon makes everyone who does it on roughly the same level. The description for Ganondorf specifically notes the transformation allowed him to reach "his true power", not true power in general specifically his. The Demon Dragon is so strong that only a roided out Master Sword can damage it, all other attacks would do nothing to him despite the Light Dragon activity helping Link in the fight and the other dragons existing. Hell, the Light Dragon was charging the Master Sword for over well over 10,000 years and while it did allow Link to beat Ganondorf, it wasn't one sided Ganondorf still put it enough of a fight and withstood enough blows to feel confident he could still take Link 1v1 once he knocked the modern sages away.

Don't get me wrong, the Secret Stone fundamentally operates as a power multiplier, and it is explicitly stated that Ganondorf's immense baseline power is what resulted in the Demon Dragon being so vastly superior to the other dragons. I fully agree that the user's base power is essential to the final output; in fact, I am not scaling the standard dragons to the Demon Dragon.
However, the core of my argument rests on the godhood ascension. According to the lore and the supplementary databooks, the act of Draconification and the subsequent loss of reason (which is strongly correlated to power in the databook), is not limited to a stat multiplier. It grants literal Godhood (神 - Kami). It elevates the user into an eternal deity. While Ganondorf, in his human form even though he is a prodigy super strong, hyped etc. he still remains not "ascended" as a God, and the dragons in-game maintain that "invincibility" prioprietes as well, even in botw you couldn't harm the dragon, just Iike you need Ms for Demon dragon.
Yet, they still remain fundamentally inferior to Hylia.
Also, only Ganondorf is in the databook portrayed as someone so powerful to being exceptionally strong compared to average, the data book still hypes the idea of the 3 original dragons being strong users of their elemental, being able of divine power of weather manip etc. Dragon Zelda especially, seem to be considered on that level, but with her own unique abilities related to time etc.

"秘石を呑み 己を長寿の龍と成す法… 魂を捧げ 理性を失う代わりに 永遠に生きる神と成るのです"
"The method to swallow the sacred stone and transform oneself into a long-lived dragon... By sacrificing one's soul and losing one's reason, one becomes an eternally living god."

"秘石の力で出現する神々しい存在であることが由来なのではないだろうか。"
(Perhaps [the Zonai dragon aesthetics] are derived from those divine beings that emerge from the power of the secret stones.)

"天候を操る神の力を秘めているようにも思える。"
(It’s thought they have the divine power to manipulate the weather.)

炎のフロドラ、氷のネルドラ、雷のオルドラ。三龍たちは近づくだけでも危険な 力を発している。それぞれが秘石で倍加されていた能力なのだろうか･･････
Fire of Dinraal, ice of Naydra, lightning of Farosh. The three dragons emit a dangerous power even when approached. Perhaps each of those abilities have been multiplied by secret stones…


そして、ガノンドロフは現代で黒龍に変貌した。体のほとんどは禍々 しい瘴気に包まれており、これもまた闇の力の作用と考えられる。秘石は 「持ち主が元来持つ力を倍加する」 秘宝であるため、理性を失い制御で きなくなった分、力も強大になっているのかもしれない。
Then, in the present era Ganondorf was transformed into the black dragon. Its body was almost entirely enveloped in sinister miasma, and it’s thought that this is also the use of the power of darkness. As the secret stones are treasures that ‘multiply the original power of the owner’, perhaps the more one loses control of reason, the more powerful one becomes

龍といえば、現在ネルドラ、フロドラ、オルドラがハイラルの天を漂っ ている (P.424)。三龍は女神ハイリアの眷属ともいわれるが、ここで「秘 石を呑み龍になった者」という可能性が浮上した。かつて龍に姿を変え、 悠久的にハイラルを見護る任務を仰せられた者たちなのだろうか。古代 から存在する龍であるが、ゾナウ族の秘石の残り数に鑑みると、ラウル たちが生きた時代よりももっと前から存在していたと考えるのが自然だ ろう。そして彼らが龍になったことで、のちに禁忌の秘術として伝承が 残されていったのではなかろうか。
Speaking of dragons, in the current period Naydra, Farosh, and Dinraal drift around the heavens. The three dragons are said to be the followers of the Goddess Hylia, but here the possibility that they’re ‘people who swallowed secret stones’ also rises to the surface. Were they people who were called upon to change into dragons so they could eternally watch over Hyrule

 

[Dust_Collector]

However, the core of my argument rests on the godhood ascension. According to the lore and the supplementary databooks, the act of Draconification and the subsequent loss of reason (which is strongly correlated to power in the databook), is not limited to a stat multiplier. It grants literal Godhood (神 - Kami). It elevates the user into an eternal deity. While Ganondorf, in his human form even though he is a prodigy super strong, hyped etc. he still remains not "ascended" as a God, and the dragons in-game maintain that "invincibility" prioprietes as well, even in botw you couldn't harm the dragon, just Iike you need Ms for Demon dragon.
Yet, they still remain fundamentally inferior to Hylia.

Achieving godhood doesn't mean they scale to Ganondorf because he wasn't considered a god prior to becoming a dragon himself. Gods can vary heavily in strength, becoming one doesn't automatically scale to you to someone who hasn't achieved godhood, unless you wanna also argue Malanya the Horse God could casually stroll up to Ganondorf and go blow for blow with him.

the data book still hypes the idea of the 3 original dragons being strong users of their elemental, being able of divine power of weather manip etc. Dragon Zelda especially, seem to be considered on that level, but with her own unique abilities related to time etc.

Yeah they're great at using their elements but that doesn't mean they scale to Ganondorf, it's not like any of the statements hype up their power to be on the same level as the demon king or something. I don't see anything that explictly puts Zelda on the same general level of the other dragons other in terms of raw power, they got the same characteristics like being immortal, flying around, passively emitting their elemental magic and all that but I don't see how they'd also be as strong as the Light Dragon either.

 

[Chariot190]

How tf did I miss this.
I'll reply when I have time.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Achieving godhood doesn't mean they scale to Ganondorf because he wasn't considered a god prior to becoming a dragon himself. Gods can vary heavily in strength, becoming one doesn't automatically scale to you to someone who hasn't achieved godhood, unless you wanna also argue Malanya the Horse God could casually stroll up to Ganondorf and go blow for blow with him.


Yeah they're great at using their elements but that doesn't mean they scale to Ganondorf, it's not like any of the statements hype up their power to be on the same level as the demon king or something. I don't see anything that explictly puts Zelda on the same general level of the other dragons other in terms of raw power, they got the same characteristics like being immortal, flying around, passively emitting their elemental magic and all that but I don't see how they'd also be as strong as the Light Dragon either.

Fine then, let's thread it as a multiplier. Let's find the multiplier, no? Base Tulin should scale either to Building, Large Building or at best Town level from Molgera (which I don't think so, I don't remember tulin hurting colgera, but correct me on this, I think he scales below his father). Which results that a secret stones give a certain amount of power.
Now, we know that in lore even though they don't fully scale to Ganondorf at all they should scale to a certain value, no? Just like the other Sages, which If I recall correctly you seemed to agree with me. Here your quote.

Dust_Collector
I think the new Sages like could honestly be tier 5. At bare minimum they should be 6-C after getting their secret stones for being able to deflect and negate the same Gloom attacks that dunked on the Master Sword (And if the blood moon stuff for Calamity Ganon goes through then that's just a solid tier 5 rating).

And while I don't know if they scale to full power Ganondorf and the cracked out blood moon he caused when first transforming they should at least scale to the less impressive blood moons mummified Ganondorf does throughout the game since not only could they stop direct attacks he tosses out but it's implied that he couldn't take them all on in his current state. Which honestly the idea that Tulin could ragdoll Revali is funny as hell to me.

So, we can extract the value. We also know that dragonification should multiply and Amp more, more reason you lose, more power you get. Let's super low ball and say the 3 dragons as humans were human to building level.
If we get the multiplier from supposedly scaling our bird boy from Large building level bombs (6.05 tons), to at least 5-C Ganondorf we get a multiplier, which would make dragons at least a certain level, even if we start with them being like wall level in AP (and this is a huge downplay since the guide highlight the dragons as very strong before with their element, so scaling them below npc monsters is indeed downplay) before as a lowball, right?

Also, I know that Godhood doesn't make you stronger than a character who is not, but what I am saying is that this verse who is highly focused on divine hierarchy is just establishing the classic formula Hylia > Dragons > Sages, that we have seen in many of the games.

Also i still don't get why if you think that if Ganon had the full Triforce then why shouldn't Alttp Link scale at least the OoT one who canonically got annihilated by the same Ganon.

 

[Lonkitt]

Furthermore, the fact that Ganon possesses the Full Triforce in ALttP is a crucial narrative element. Claiming that Link's victory is a 'plot outlier' or 'invalid' ignores the core of the game and the lore, which has never been contradicted. We have a similar case here on the wiki with Castlevania: some argued that Erzebet’s eclipse feat in the Netflix series shouldn't scale because it supposedly contradicted previous elements or because 'Dracula should be superior.' However, these arguments are often arbitrary. In ALttP, we see someone actually using the Full Triforce in combat. Nothing in the lore states that a Full Triforce wielder is unbeatable in a fight; it is omnipotent as a wish-granting relic, but the user is not necessarily invincible. (and still in ALBW people could destroy their own triforce)

You are losing the plot here if you're bringing up Netflix Casltevania

 

[Lgamer099_99]

You are losing the plot here if you're bringing up Netflix Casltevania

Why? I make a legit point that the wiki is using a double standard. On a verse, the feat is being considered legit as it is the plot of the series according to Glass, but here, the entire main plot of a game which is the hero beats the guy who has his hands on the artifact and then claims it makes it an outlier when the developers could have retconned the game or make it not Canon instead of making a sequel out of it?

 

[Theglassman12]

You’re literally using whataboutism when you’re bringing up a series that has completely different context to its scaling and conflating that to Zelda. Stay on topic and stop bringing up other series because you’re not helping your case with Zelda getting buffed.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

You’re literally using whataboutism when you’re bringing up a series that has completely different context to its scaling and conflating that to Zelda. Stay on topic and stop bringing up other series because you’re not helping your case with Zelda getting buffed.

No, I am pointing out a mistake in the methodology of the wiki. Bringing other verses is super legit, and an other super good example would be Soma beating his own manifestation of chaos. What's so absurd about Link scaling to a fraction of the strongest entities of the franchise, when we consider the Triforce again only a fraction of the Golden goddesses? Why are we treating the Triforce as the omnipotent top 1 thing in the verse when it's not? The context is clear, and you still failed to address Agahnim statement which is super explicit in his nature. The hero is no match for them, who hold the power of the Triforce. So yes, for this statement to make any sense, Ganon has to be using that power, and Link should scale since he gets upgrades to beat him, with classic Ms bouncing off Ganon, and with official sources confirming they fought entire days. Also, you still didn't address the other things, this topic isn't only about alttp, who still should be scaled above small planet level because literally the timeline, the story, the guides, everything tells us alttp is about Link successing in beating the same Ganon that defeated oot link creating the downfall timeline, how absurd that we have island level the Link who literally defeated after days of fight the same Ganon that got rid off OOt Link. This is so strongly inaccurate, and you should know this very well. Can you reply to this? And maybe touching the other points? But first, address this, why is island level the Link who defeated the Ganon that defeated the small planet level Link resulting in this timeline? You did a good chain scaling for Castlevania, u should know this better.

 

[Theglassman12]

Soma beating up his manifestation of chaos is not the same thing as Link fighting a Ganon that didn’t get amped by the full triforce. Again whataboutisms, if you’re just gonna keep saying “oh this series did X so why can’t my series get X” then I’m just gonna vote on disagreeing with your CRT and move on. Have arguments that stand on its own merit and not whataboutisms when Castlevania has far different context for its feats. Also I don’t need you lecturing me on how I scale Castlevania, that’s irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Soma beating up his manifestation of chaos is not the same thing as Link fighting a Ganon that didn’t get amped by the full triforce. Again whataboutisms, if you’re just gonna keep saying “oh this series did X so why can’t my series get X” then I’m just gonna vote on disagreeing with your CRT and move on. Have arguments that stand on its own merit and not whataboutisms when Castlevania has far different context for its feats. Also I don’t need you lecturing me on how I scale Castlevania, that’s irrelevant to this thread.

• Didn't address the other things in the CTR besides ALTTP.
• Still refuses to address a character statement making clear the enemy side has the Triforce, which makes the hero no match for them
• Claims Ganon didn't get amped by full Triforce because other room you can find the construct, when an explicitly stated amped by Triforce Yuganon, still can find the Triforce in an other place entirely after defeating him.
• still didn't address why a Link that defeated the very same Ganon that defeated OOT Link (Small Planet level) scales to island level.

You can't tell me I didn't provide arguments that stand on their own, are you focusing just on the Castlevania comparisons on purpose and ignore all the rest? Your influence make people vote on disagree stopping at alttp part.

Also, still, would you address:

• Calamity Ganon feat
• The dragons and deity hierarchy scaling
• The Sword scaling
• Totk scaling and stone multiplier. Since we are addressing all these things as well.

They exist, you know? And the arguments I posted don't rely on other verses either. Not that alttp does, except for debunking the idea it is an outlier. Plus, I ask you again, if other people will convince you Ganon is using full Triforce will you claim like them it is an outlier or you will claim link rightfully scales? Because chariot and dust just label it as outlier while they made in several threads good points on why Ganon has it.

 

[Theglassman12]

I don’t care for TOTK stuff since that’s not what I’m focusing on, I’m focusing on a
ALTTP and Yuganon and as only amped by two pieces of the triforce, not the full thing so again, not helping your case for full triforce scaling.

Yes because you keep mentioning Castlevania for no reason other than whataboutisms. Again if this is all you got going for full triforce stuff then I’m disagreeing with your CRT. Bring something new to the table without having to make a comparison that doesn’t make sense