ALttP and ALBW Link Upscale, Master Sword scaling, Calamity Ganon Moon Level Feat and how it upscales Demise.

[Lgamer099_99]

I don’t care for TOTK stuff since that’s not what I’m focusing on, I’m focusing on a
ALTTP and Yuganon and as only amped by two pieces of the triforce, not the full thing so again, not helping your case for full triforce scaling.

Yes because you keep mentioning Castlevania for no reason other than whataboutisms. Again if this is all you got going for full triforce stuff then I’m disagreeing with your CRT. Bring something new to the table without having to make a comparison that doesn’t make sense

Yuganon is amped by two pieces, I know. But the thing is, that after defeating him, you find the Triforce in an other place in his full form. I am pointing out the mechanic is the same as alttp Ganon. Like, the two pieces don't appear there in the room where u defeat him, but they appear with the third one in an other room, that's why this helps my case. And again, there is Agahnim statement that points out Ganon didn't have the Triforce only in the sealing war, why don't u address the statement? Why do you keep saying being something new to the table? How do you see that statement then? How do u interpret it.
I don't want to fight bro, so please let's have "this" out of the topic in order to be objective in our arguments and evaluations. There is no need to keep telling me the same thing over and over and pretend I didn't provide other stuff when in fact you are ignoring for some reason Agahnim claiming they got the Triforce.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Even putting aside the outlier argument that's based on all the lore that goes against the great fairy that amps the Master Sword being on the same level as the complete Triforce, as well as stuff like ALBW Link with the same level of strength needing another amp to compete with just one piece of the Triforce. Link goes into this fight with a pearl that can directly harness the power of the Triforcet to make it so Link isn't a target of it's power, he has items that make him intangible to all of Ganon's attacks, and he can only truly damage and defeat Ganon with arrows that ignore durability and strike directly at his soul.

 

[Lonkitt]

Using other verses to back something up only works in VERY situational circumstances. Like, if you wanna say "this page format is messy, so we should look to how pages for [insert verse here] have been handled to clean things up and accurately present ratings/abilities/etc. for this character", that's obviously fine because it's less about "what about this verse" and more so something objectively tied to the wiki itself

In this case, the Netflix Castlevania thing is just whataboutism

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Even putting aside the outlier argument that's based on all the lore that goes against the great fairy that amps the Master Sword being on the same level as the complete Triforce, as well as stuff like ALBW Link with the same level of strength needing another amp to compete with just one piece of the Triforce. Link goes into this fight with a pearl that can directly harness the power of the Triforcet to make it so Link isn't a target of it's power, he has items that make him intangible to all of Ganon's attacks, and he can only truly damage and defeat Ganon with arrows that ignore durability and strike directly at his soul.

ALBW link has same sword, but since the Ms power depends on the energy it contains, it is more than fair to assume that the fairy boosted the sword since the official guides confirm that sages, fairy etc usually Amp the sword in order to maintain its power. Before striking with the silver arrows you need to weaken Ganon with sword blows, you can't just shoot them at Ganon. And again, the game on purpose makes the classic Ms bouncing off Ganon, so it's not like the golden ms hurts him just for the anti evil hax and not because it's ap scales to Ganon. Plus, I don't see the problem with Ganon being 3-A but above Link, and Link downscaling from that value. It's not like all 3-A have the same exact AP, or we wouldn't have Chain scaling in-verse.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Using other verses to back something up only works in VERY situational circumstances. Like, if you wanna say "this page format is messy, so we should look to how pages for [insert verse here] have been handled to clean things up and accurately present ratings/abilities/etc. for this character", that's obviously fine because it's less about "what about this verse" and more so something objectively tied to the wiki itself

In this case, the Netflix Castlevania thing is just whataboutism

Yeah sure, this thing being repeated for the seventh time won't save you guys from addressing Agahnim statement and explaining why it should be an outlier or the other points the thread makes besides alttp. Or why alttp link scales several tiers below the link that got owned by the same Ganon.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah sure, this thing being repeated for the seventh time won't save you guys from addressing Agahnim statement and explaining why it should be an outlier or the other points the thread makes besides alttp. Or why alttp link scales several tiers below the link that got owned by the same Ganon.

I'm just elaborating one why I think bringing up Netflix Castlevania isn't doing you any favours. I'd like to address the other arguments you've made as well, I'm just handling something rn

 

[Dust_Collector]

ALBW link has same sword, but since the Ms power depends on the energy it contains, it is more than fair to assume that the fairy boosted the sword since the official guides confirm that sages, fairy etc usually Amp the sword in order to maintain its power.

Guides consider both versions of the Golden Sword to be the same, not one being significantly stronger than the other. Like your argument hinges on this one great fairy being on the same level as the complete Triforces full power so she could amp the Master Sword to that same level despite all the lore introduced after ALTTP making it clear that not a single soul, besides the literal creator gods themselves, even compares to it with it and you haven't given a proper argument for why all the lore and retcons are wrong.

Before striking with the silver arrows you need to weaken Ganon with sword blows, you can't just shoot them at Ganon.

You don't weaken with the the sword you briefly stun him so he's vulnerable, the sword does no actual damage to him. Ganon could literally stand there and let Link hit him with the golden sword for a week straight and Link would be no closer to beating Ganon then he was at the start. You can't weaken or damage Ganon with anything BUT these special durability negating arrows, it's literally impossible for Link to do anything meaningful to Ganon without them (Not just gameplay wise but lore states that it's impossible for Link to beat Ganon without them).

And again, the game on purpose makes the classic Ms bouncing off Ganon, so it's not like the golden ms hurts him just for the anti evil hax and not because it's ap scales to Ganon.

If you wanna go the route of gameplay showing the normal Master Sword not doing anything to Ganon at all as proof it's anti-evil powers aren't a factor here then it doesn't work out because you can still stun (or damage / weaken Ganon as you say) with spin attacks with the normal master sword. Hell you don't even need the golden master sword to have normal strikes stun Ganon, the weaker tempered sword can do the same thing with it's normal sword swings too, golden sword isn't special in that regard.

And in regards to scaling him to OOT Link that doesn't work either. If we go the route of Link beating Ganon in ALTTP being an outlier than he wouldn't scale to OOT Link since that's not how that works, the fact that ALBW Link with the same sword and power as ALTTP Link is explictly inferior to OOT Link doesn't help either, and going the route of Link beating Ganon by stunning him with the Golden Sword (Which the two weaker versions of the swords can also do) and then ignoring his durability with soul piercing arrows wouldn't allow for scaling since he's beating Ganon with methods that don't require him to scale in the first place.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Guides consider both versions of the Golden Sword to be the same, not one being significantly stronger than the other. Like your argument hinges on this one great fairy being on the same level as the complete Triforces full power so she could amp the Master Sword to that same level despite all the lore introduced after ALTTP making it clear that not a single soul, besides the literal creator gods themselves, even compares to it with it and you haven't given a proper argument for why all the lore and retcons are wrong.


You don't weaken with the the sword you briefly stun him so he's vulnerable, the sword does no actual damage to him. Ganon could literally stand there and let Link hit him with the golden sword for a week straight and Link would be no closer to beating Ganon then he was at the start. You can't weaken or damage Ganon with anything BUT these special durability negating arrows, it's literally impossible for Link to do anything meaningful to Ganon without them (Not just gameplay wise but lore states that it's impossible for Link to beat Ganon without them).


If you wanna go the route of gameplay showing the normal Master Sword not doing anything to Ganon at all as proof it's anti-evil powers aren't a factor here then it doesn't work out because you can still stun (or damage / weaken Ganon as you say) with spin attacks with the normal master sword. Hell you don't even need the golden master sword to have normal strikes stun Ganon, the weaker tempered sword can do the same thing with it's normal sword swings too, golden sword isn't special in that regard.

And in regards to scaling him to OOT Link that doesn't work either. If we go the route of Link beating Ganon in ALTTP being an outlier than he wouldn't scale to OOT Link since that's not how that works, the fact that ALBW Link with the same sword and power as ALTTP Link is explictly inferior to OOT Link doesn't help either, and going the route of Link beating Ganon by stunning him with the Golden Sword (Which the two weaker versions of the swords can also do) and then ignoring his durability with soul piercing arrows wouldn't allow for scaling since he's beating Ganon with methods that don't require him to scale in the first place.

1. I repeat this again, Triforce can be 3-A and have a finite higher value while Link could scale still 3-A but below it, how would this contradict anything?
2. We literally have a whole chainscaling regarding light arrows, which just stun Ganon, and yet we have a whole cross-scaling from twinrova because of that. For consistency we should absolutely threat the Golden master sword in the same way.
And BTW, light arrows do have anti evil hax, so you should explain why an anti evil weapon who just stun opt Ganondorf we gave it "ap" because twinrova can tank it, when it could be resistance to that hax instead of the arrows being powerful ap wise, if we wanna follow your own logic here. Be consistent, I am fine with downgrading characters and not make them scale from twinrova if that's the case, but at least the method we apply should be consistent and not biased.
3. Where was confirmed that ALBW is weaker than oot one exactly? He literally fought a 2 pieces Yuganon.
4. Oot Link also had light arrows and other helps at his disposal, yet failed while alttp link alone won.
5. The lore makes clear that the hero can face the evil with full Triforce.

...Do you know the prophecy of
the Great Cataclysm?
This is the way I heard it...

If a person who has an evil
heart gets the Triforce, a Hero
is destined to appear

It is ironic that the last one in
the line has the potential to
become the Hero of legend.

Surely you can destroy Ganon!

Plus, @Theglassman12 the Triforce itself while speaking is basically saying that Ganon was still sustaining the Dark world, which is a 3-A feat.
Triforce :
Once he had stored up power there, Ganon intended come out into the World of Light in order to fulfill his wish.
However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well.
The Triforce is waiting for a new owner. The "Golden Power" is in your hands.

Plus it confirms again Agahnim statement, the Triforce tells Link that the Golden power is now in his hands, which is exactly the same sentence Agahnim used when stated that they had the Golden power.
So, in the end, is even the legendary "Hero" is no match for we demons who hold the "Golden Power".

 

[Chariot190]

I will explain why Link from The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past definitely scales from the Full Triforce.

No, you're trying to explain why a victory, regardless of being canon, should override 30+ years of later lore, direct sequels, repeated Triforce statements, and the literal mechanics of that very Ganon fight.

Let's just get this out of the way now. Nobody is arguing the fight didn't happen. Of course it happened.
ALttP Link beat Ganon. It happened, it's important even, at least as much as any other final boss.

The issue is you keep acting as if:

• "canon event happened"

and

• "raw AP scaling is consistent, coherent, and non-contradictive"

like they're the same exact thing.
They aren't.

That's literally why PIS/outliers exist as concepts to begin with.
Batman hurting cosmic heralds happened too.
Goku getting cut by gunfire happened too.
That doesn't mean every absurd scaling implication from those scenes stays consistent.

Honestly just saying it now, tldr:

• Ganon having the full Triforce? I'm cool with that, agree with Dust there.
• ALttP Link beating him? Canon.
• Link getting AP scaling to the full Triforce? Hell nah.

That requires proving the win was AP-based.
Not just proving the win happened.

And that there is but one of many actual problems with this CRT. You keep trying to flip a special wincon into AP scaling despite:

• decades of contradictory Triforce lore
• repeated "full Triforce is incomparable / omnipotent / ultimate power" statements
• ALBW directly showing Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows still only fights a TWO-piece Yuganon
• the fight itself relying on sacred weapon interaction, Silver Arrows, soul/durability-negating hax, and Ganon not being killable normally

Also a bit why release context is relevant too.
Back in 1991, before decades of later Triforce slop existed, taking the fight more directly was less insane, honestly, I'd agree that in a vacuum it'd would likely be fine.
But fortunately for us, Zelda didn't stop existing in 1991, later games, guides, and direct sequels made the complete Triforce way too far above partial Triforce users and anything below it. Incomparably so. Infinitely so.

Like the event happened, but the AP interpretation became retroactively incoherent.

Spoiler: Golden Sword/ALBW 1

This claim has been contested in the general Zelda thread before, but I have new supporting evidence.
The Golden Master Sword is explicitly defined as the most powerful version of the Master Sword available to Link.

Yes. Within its upgrade chain in that game. Ain't no way you're extrapolating that into the future and every game that came after.

That doesn't remotely mean:

• strongest Master Sword in franchise history
• infinitely above later Master Swords
• equal to the complete Triforce
• enough to bridge a gap explicitly treated as incomparable and infinite

Lil bit of a stretch there, no?

Also, ALBW, again, exists, and it's beyond problematic for your insistent pushing of this.

ALBW Link:

• has the same (stronger per your own statement) Lv3/Golden Master Sword
• has the Triforce of Courage too
• has Light Arrows
• is a direct follow-up Link with better scaling context

Yet Yuganon with ONLY TWO pieces is still a real fight.

Meanwhile the complete Triforce is repeatedly treated as massively beyond the sum of its parts. Incomparably so. Infinitely even, TWO infinites even. In that SAME game.

So unfortunate as it might be, the Golden Sword isn't some infinite amp, we know it isn't, the same exact sword isn't an infinite gap above even a fraction of the full Triforce or the base Master Sword, so how in the world is it scaling to the whole of it?

We often overlook a fundamental principle of the Master Sword: its ability to store and be imbued with divine energy
In Hyrule Historia, the True Master Sword is differentiated from the base version precisely because it contains a greater amount of sacred energy, giving it its true form and strength. We see the same mechanic in Tears of the Kingdom: Zelda chooses to become a dragon to store and accumulate divine energy within the Master Sword for millennia.

"We"?

Maybe you do, but I'm pretty sure everybody knows this.

The issue is you're extrapolating drastically from:

• "the sword can store sacred energy"

and trying to flip it as

• "this specific version scales to the complete Triforce"

Need a bit more work for that second bit dude.

Yeah, the Master Sword can be empowered.
Yeah, TotK reinforces this.
No, that does not magically make the Golden Sword equal to the full Triforce.
Especially when ALBW directly demonstrates otherwise.

And this gets worse when you bring up TotK, which you did.
TotK isn't "just" the "normal MS but not gold".

The whole-ass premise of the game is that Zelda spends an absurd amount of time restoring and drip-feeding sacred power into the sword specifically to let it oppose Ganondorf and gloom.

Like if your argument is:
"the Master Sword can store sacred/divine energy"

TotK is the unironic strongest example of that in the whole series.
Especially if we're talking about the Full Triforce, as ironically, the only sword here with any actual relation to the full Triforce is the TotK Master Sword, not the Golden Sword.

Zelda has the full Triforce in TotK. It may be subtext. She may not know how to use it properly. She may not be channeling the whole thing at max output either.
And obviously the Master Sword doesn't auto-scale to the full Triforce just because of that either.
But the sword is still being fed sacred power from someone who has the damn thing, for thousands upon thousands of years.
It's basically being drip-fed from an infinite-power battery, even if it isn't outputting the full battery at once.
Which is incomparably better as sacred-energy stuff:

• "a random Great Fairy made it gold"

Like just saying Golden Sword > TotK Master Sword is bonkers off that alone.
You can't cite TotK to prove the Master Sword can absorb sacred power, then ignore that TotK's sword has way better context than:

• "a Great Fairy made it gold"

And the visual design means basically nothing.

The Golden Sword being gold doesn't make it the strongest Master Sword forever across the franchise.
TotK's Master Sword also glows.
AlttP's doesn't.
It changes against gloom, it gets even more glowy.
It gets a gold-ish hue too, hmmmm...

You could play the exact same game and go:

• "well this one visually evolved too so actually THIS is strongest"

That ain't how this works dude.

At the end of the day, all the Golden Sword actually is, is above previous ALttP sword forms.
Maybe you can stretch it to default MS stuff, honestly I'd be fine but not for the reasons you keep giving.
But not above every future Master Sword incarnation.
And definitely not enough AP to scale Link to the complete Triforce.

"The Master Sword, made ultimate! Now it's the fiercest blade imaginable!" — Gear (A Link Between Worlds)

Uh, why's one of your big statements in regards to A Link Between Worlds?

Kind of undermining your own point later that the ALttP Golden Sword is secretly infinities greater if its direct sequel says "yeah this is like the best we got" at this point in canon.

Also, it's a bit odd that one of your big statements is from ALBW specifically.

Given ALBW is the same game where that "fiercest blade imaginable" still doesn't let Link just omegafuck a two-piece Yuganon.

The very statement you're using to gas the Golden Sword is from the exact game that takes the full-Triforce scaling argument out back man, what are you doing?

While the Link from A Link to the Past and A Link Between Worlds (its direct sequel) are technically the same hero

Man why we larping?

and carry the same sword, their AP (Attack Potency) isn't necessarily identical.

You're right, the ALBW statement is newer, meaning it should technically be stronger than the prior, given the statement would've been written after ALttP already existed, both from a writing standpoint and in the timeline.

Which only makes this worse for your point.

In ALttP, Link receives the Golden Master Sword from the Fat Fairy in the Dark World. This entity could have imbued the blade with a significantly higher amount of magical and divine energy compared to the version seen in ALBW.

"Could have".
Exactly.
Headcanon.

There is no statement saying the ALttP Golden Sword is infinitely stronger than the ALBW one.

In fact, do not forget that the Zelda Encyclopedia actively treats those two as being comparable, the same thing more or less.

And your own statement just said that the ALBW one is the height of its power. And having just checked both game's textdumps, the AlttP one has like zero glaze statements while ALBW has like 3 so...

Somehow, your argument becomes:

• "ALBW's Golden Sword statement proves Golden Sword is insane"

but also:

• "ALBW's Golden Sword doesn't count because ALttP's Golden Sword could maybe be way stronger"

Your argument straight up contradicts itself.

"The Golden Sword is a magical blade created by a benevolent fairy..."

All this tells us is the fairy upgraded the sword?

It doesn't even slightly prove:

• Golden Sword = full Triforce AP

Again, bit of a gap in logic here.

And think about what you're actually saying here for a second.

You're arguing that a Great Fairy can imbue the Master Sword with so much energy it becomes comparable to the Full Triforce.
Not the Triforce of Power.
Not one piece.
The full thing.

The thing later material keeps treating as without equal / supreme / omnipotent. Not even a Fairy Queen.
Just a normal Great Fairy. Great Fairies, who are weaker than even a single piece of the Triforce?

And she can just give enough of her own juice to eclipse every piece of the Triforce, the normal Master Sword, and more, multiplied by like two infinities, to rival something actively treated as omnipotent relative to her anyway?

Dude what? Be fr now. This is what I mean.
You're so focused on big number that you're not even thinking your own argument's implications through.

Spoiler: Outlier/Full Triforce/Combat burden

Furthermore, the fact that Ganon possesses the Full Triforce in ALttP is a crucial narrative element. Claiming that Link's victory is a 'plot outlier' or 'invalid' ignores the core of the game and the lore, which has never been contradicted.

No it doesn't. You're still not getting what an outlier even is.

An outlier:

• happened
• is canon
• can be important
• still has scaling implications inconsistent with the broader setting

If it was retconned away entirely, it would not BE an outlier anymore. It wouldn't BE anything because it didn't happen.
The fact it happened is WHY it would be.

We have a similar case here on the wiki with Castlevania: some argued that Erzebet’s eclipse feat in the Netflix series shouldn't scale because it supposedly contradicted previous elements or because 'Dracula should be superior.' However, these arguments are often arbitrary.

Holy whataboutism Batman. Especially for the Drac thing, like Drac has some issues in that (he was starving himself, suicidal, etc.), but goddamn right Drac in a neutral setting would be?

In ALttP, we see someone actually using the Full Triforce in combat.

Not entirely true, we're just giving benefit of the doubt, which is fine imo but that's not hard concrete visual evidence, but given you want to state it as fact, let's play devil's advocate for a second:

We see Ganon AFTER obtaining and using the full Triforce.
You are ASSUMING every sword clash in the fight reflects direct full-Triforce scaling.
That's exactly the thing you must prove.

Especially when:

• Silver Arrows are mandatory, negate durability, and are both his weakness and soul-destroying.
• Ganon cannot be killed normally.
• the Master Sword cannot finish him, it can't even actually hurt him.
• multiple hax/sacred interactions are involved.
• ALBW later shows the exact same setup on crack absolutely does not mitigate the gap at play here.

Nothing in the lore states that a Full Triforce wielder is unbeatable in a fight;

This is a burden shift.
And also, uh, it is, like, a lot. It's stated so many times that its power is all-powerful, omnipotent, etc.

But nah dude nice try. What's actually being contested is:
"Link scales to the complete Triforce" not that "someone with its full power can't be defeated".
Hax and weaknesses still a thing, and we know Link exploited both.
A stronger dude can lose via:

• hax
• sealing
• holy weakness
• soul damage
• power null
• specific contextual bullshit win conditions

without the foe scaling to their raw power.

And I just wanna cover ground here given this was a point last time, but in case you or anyone wants to argue about the Moon Pearl...
It does not give Link full-Triforce stats, or any stats for that matter.
It does not make the Moon Pearl equal to the full Triforce.
It does not mean Link's sword swings scale to Ganon's full output.
It's simply hax protection / resistance to Dark World transformation slop.

Which is literally the opposite of what you want for your CRT. Given if Link has an item that stops certain Triforce-derived effects from applying to him, that only actually helps explain why he isn't haxed tf out.
But "resistance" isn't matching it in raw power.

The Moon Pearl can interfere with, redirect or exempt Link from a specific magical effect without scaling to the full Triforce's actual power.

And to cut off the obvious:
No lad, that doesn't mean Moon Pearl = full Triforce. It simply means the Moon Pearl has a niche function against a specific aspect here, which is to say, that extremely specific counters don't inherently scale to the full source of the thing they're a workaround toward. In fact, the Moon Pearl doesn't even counter, negate, or nullify its magic, we're told flatout the Moon Pearl is a means to utilize the Triforce itself, it's a conduit, what it's doing isn't overpowering it, it's just removing Link himself from what the magic is targeting, by means of that magic itself.

Hell, this actively supports my point. If you wanna go "why didn't Ganon just wish / hax Link away" or "Link had Moon Pearl / sacred protections / specific resistance tools", then you've already admitted this isn't raw stats.

Which means:

• Moon Pearl helps Link survive / function under specific conditions
• it doesn't make Link, the Moon Pearl, or the Golden Sword 3-A
• it sure don't prove Link physically scales to full-Triforce Ganon. It's just another caveat that implies Link wouldn't scale.

ALttP is also literally one of the most blatant examples known to man possible. Ganon isn't just beaten to death with normal sword swings. You need the specific sacred/soul-destroying hax to win, otherwise he never goes down.

Those aren't the same thing, you're preemptively arguing against a strawman of the very obvious counterargument. The fact you know this is going to be said yet you opt to strawman it anyway is a lil sus.
Anyway, here's literally just 5m of me CTRL+F'ing.

"Leaving behind the omnipotent Triforce..."
"When the Goddesses of Creation left the world, they left the Triforce, a sacred golden triangle representing their powers. It is an omnipotent relic that grants the wishes of those who touch it"
"The Omnipotent Triforce"
"To obtain its true power, the two missing pieces of the Triforce must be acquired" (just to point out how the Full > Sum)
"There are three kinds of Triforce - Power, Wisdom, and Courage. When these three are brought together, the Triforce will show its maximum power" (another affirming the full > the sum)
"The three goddesses hid the Triforce containing the power of the gods somewhere in Hyrule"
"If the heart of the one who holds the sacred triangle has all three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all"
"If that one seeks the True Force, that one must acquire the two lost parts" (more sum of its yap).
"The power of the gods... The Triforce! He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted!"
"They did all this in their lust to take the ultimate power protected by Her Grace, the goddess"
"The power she guarded was without equal" (this is a big one)
"Such was the might of the ultimate power that the old ones placed it in the care of the goddess"
"The old gods created a supreme power that gave anyone who possessed it the ability to shape reality and fulfill any desire. They called it: The Triforce"
"You see, the mark of the Triforce on your hand is a symbol of the greatest power in this world"
"But spirit alone wasn’t enough. You had to overcome many trials and awaken the hero within yourself so that you could wield that supreme power"
"True to legend, the Triforce is the one thing with the power to vanquish Demise"
"You got the Triforce of Courage! Created by the old gods, the Triforce possesses ultimate power and is said to grant the wishes of whoever possesses it!" (note, its ultimate power and the wish thing are distinct properties).
"You got the Triforce of Power! Created by the old gods, the Triforce possesses ultimate power and is said to grant the wishes of whoever possesses it!" - as above.
"You got the Triforce of Wisdom! Created by the old gods, the Triforce possesses ultimate power and is said to grant the wishes of whoever possesses it!" - as above 2.

And this, is ignoring the actual relevant statements, or any framed in a way I can't just CTRL+F in a few seconds (there's def way more).

Spoiler: Wish-granting/Lorule non-sequitur

it is omnipotent as a wish-granting relic, but the user is not necessarily invincible.

That actually isn't true. The very statement that gasses up Ganon actively says he made its omnipotent power his own. Like actually verbatim.

With the adjacent statements and context, that means:

• "the Triforce gives a huge buff as Ganon absorbed / consolidated it into himself"

That ain't:

• "Ganon stood next to a fragile wish rock"

or:

• "Link fought someone holding an object"

What you actually need is:

• "Link physically scales to someone empowered by the consolidated omnipotent power of the full Triforce"

And you've yet to prove that dude.

Secondly, the games make a clear distinction between:

• wish-granting
• ultimate power

Both are true, pretty sure I quoted like two or three that make a distinction as both being the case.

Thirdly, why do you think it can grant wishes?
It's an all-powerful reality-warping artifact.
The reason it grants wishes is because it's that powerful. Wish-granting isn't some disconnected lil side hax unrelated to the Triforce's actual power. It's one expression of the same power you're trying to scale from.

And worst of all, the biggaton feats you're trying to scale Ganon from are wish / reality-warping feats anyway.

• The Dark World corruption comes from Ganon's wish.
• The Null stuff involves Triforce-level reality / space-time slop.

The whole point of the Triforce is that its wish-granting works because it's an all-powerful reality-bending relic.

Like man, just saying:
"nah, that's just wish-granting, not actual power"
well good job ig. You're not just gutting Link scaling. You're gutting Ganon's tier too.

That's not even a real distinction either. It's just trying to keep the big funny number while attempting to avoid what that would actually entail.

And no, this doesn't support your "Link scales" argument. If the Triforce is "only" that strong as a "wish-granting relic", and the user's stats don't scale to that, then Link doesn't scale either even if he did scale to Ganon.
You're gutting your own point.

(and still in ALBW people could destroy their own triforce)

This isn't even remotely the same thing as "scales physically to the complete Triforce's power".
Lorule destroying their Triforce:

• had vague / unknown conditions
• almost doomed the entire world permanently
• could not be fixed by Lorule or the very same people afterward

This legit just reinforces the Triforce being some sort of cosmologically foundational thing, and if normal people, fairies, sages, mages, whatever could just rival that power, Lorule wouldn't have been totally ******.
Just get a Fairy to support the world ig idk, according to you they can just pop out that type of juice.

Fact is, there's a very simple distinction here:
The Triforce is all-powerful.
Not all-durable.

• Triforce physical durability =/= Triforce power output
• Triforce physical durability =/= Ganon's empowered stats
• breaking the artifact =/= overpowering the power inside it

Who ever said the Triforce is physically that durable? The actual pieces have been split, scattered, broken, whatever.
Zelda does this shit constantly. Zelda 2. Wind Waker. ALBW. Just off the top of my head.

Being able to touch, split, steal, or even shatter the physical artifact doesn't mean every dude screwing with it scales to the omnipotent reality-warping power inside it.
Hell, if we wanna use outside examples given you've already doneso, this happens all the time.

• Super Dragon Balls (Moro threatened to wipe some out, despite being way tf weaker than their output).
• That ******* jewel I fruget how to spell from Inuyasha (basically the plot).
• One Ring (basically the plot 2).
• The Fused Shadow or Mirror of Twilight from LITERALLY also Zelda.

Powerful artifacts can be physically interacted with or destroyed without the person doing it scaling to the full cosmic slop output behind it.
Breaking the container =/= overpowering the power.

And Link isn't even trying to break the Triforce in ALttP. He's fighting Ganon, a dude who got amped by it.
Different thing entirely.

The physical durability of the funny triangles isn't the thing being scaled here, if it were, they wouldn't even need a single piece.
The power Ganon suckled off of is.
So even if the artifact can be damaged or destroyed, that tells us effectively nothing about overpowering Ganon's actual Triforce amp.

Lorule only makes this worse for you because destroying their Triforce didn't mean they could do anything about it.
Their world started collapsing faster than the current economy.
Nobody there could replace it.
Nobody there could take its place.
Nobody there had the power to recreate it or save their world.
The ending needed the Hyrule Triforce to restore Lorule's Triforce through a wish.

All you've actually proven is:

• The physical artifact can be destroyed under some unknown conditions

Not:

• Link scales to the Triforce's omnipotent power
• Golden Sword AP reaches the complete Triforce
• Ganon's full amp can be overpowered through raw AP
• Triforce durability = Triforce output

Honestly? Just proves the opposite.

The only thing strong enough to restore/replace that cosmic power was another Triforce.

Spoiler: Blood Moon

Scaling for Calamity Ganon, Demise, and Hylia:
I also propose an upscale for Calamity Ganon. In Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf is scaled to Moon Level for the Blood Moon feats. However, when Calamity Ganon performs the exact same feat in Breath of the Wild, it’s often dismissed as an outlier because he is damaged by the Divine Beasts (scaled to City Level). This is inconsistent.

You're using old BotW context while ignoring TotK's added context. Major issue, no?

Calamity Ganon isn't performing the same feat anymore under the current lore.
Keyword: anymore.

Under BotW only context, sure, this was a reasonable, in fact at the time it was, in fact, the case. As at said time, Calamity Ganon was just Ganon. There was no secret unrevealed true Ganondorf sealed under Hyrule Castle yet.

But TotK changed that. Now we know the actual Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time.
Calamity Ganon is a manifestation / offshoot of his malice, gloom, hatred, whatever word you wanna use.

The Blood Moon being connected to "Ganon's power" no longer means the Calamity gets the feat. The actual source is the real Ganondorf under the castle.

Hell it's not even mainly an outlier argument anymore. It's worse than that:
the feat is being slapped onto the wrong mf.

Guides like Creating a Champion confirm the Blood Moon is the product of Calamity Ganon’s power when it reaches its zenith.

Man, you gotta understand things change.

That was written with BotW's context. And under BotW context, sure, "Calamity Ganon did it" made sense because Calamity Ganon was the only Ganon at the time. There was no real Ganondorf, it was just it.

Now, the old guide statement isn't useless. It was true for the information BotW had at the time.
But later context changes what that means, as TotK recontextualizes what Calamity Ganon actually was.

Dude was basically dregs. A glorified Phantom Ganon at best. Honestly worse tbh.

Taking a BotW guide statement just to ignore the later reveal, ignore the real Ganondorf being sealed below Hyrule Castle, ignore the source of the leaking malice / gloom, and then act like the old yap still means the Calamity personally caused the whole thing under its own power is asinine.

Updated lore don't work like that dude. The old statement isn't discarded though, don't get me wrong, but its meaning changes.

Old:

• Blood Moon = Calamity Ganon's power reaching its peak

TotK:

• Blood Moon = peak times when Ganondorf's power / malice affecting the world (which has the additional boon of heightening the puppet's power, they coincide but coinciding isn't causation).

Meaning, currently:

• Ganon = the sealed Demon King Ganondorf as the actual source
• Calamity Ganon = a manifestation produced from that source

The Calamity can be produced, sustained, or heightened by that leaking power without scaling to the full source of it.

If TotK Ganondorf scales, Calamity Ganon should too.

Nah.
TotK Ganondorf is the source.
Calamity Ganon is the manifestation.

A manifestation created by someone's power doesn't inherently scale to the full source of said power.
Phantom Ganon, for example, isn't equal to Ganondorf or his full power just because he's made from Ganondorf's power, or ig blood and flesh.
Same logic.

The Calamity being made from Ganondorf's malice / gloom does not mean the Calamity scales to Ganondorf's full output.

And the body being sealed literally doesn't matter either.
Like yeah, his body is sealed, except the seal is wearing down, and his power is explicitly leaking out.
That's literally how the Calamity exists in the first place. The sealed body being the source isn't a contradiction.
It's the explanation.

Basic scaling separation here:
Ganondorf scales because the feat is actually his.
Calamity Ganon is riddled with caveats now, he doesn't.

Spoiler: Demise, Hylia, Stones, etc.

Consequently, this leads to an upscale for Demise and Hylia. Calamity Ganon is the incarnation of the hatred and malice of Ganondorf, who is himself the incarnation of Demise’s hatred. It is logically sound that Demise scales above the mere 'manifestation of hatred' of his own reincarnation.

No, it doesn't?

Ignoring how this "upscale" hinges on Calamity Ganon doing the Blood Moon feat, and that premise is already a suspect. But your actual reasoning is a bit absurd?

Ganondorf's hatred/malice in BotW/TotK isn't just some wee lil sample of Demise's hatred. It's coming from Ganondorf after absurd amounts of time, while sealed, while empowered by a Secret Stone, with his gloom/malice powers being amplified to a ridiculous degree. You'd need actual scaling connecting Demise to that specific amplified Ganondorf output, bolstered by his unyielding rage due to the situation he's in.

Otherwise there's nothing actually here. This manifestation (Calamity Ganon) isn't just some baseline hatred either. It's an offshoot of an amped Ganondorf's Gloom/Malice.

Other potential scaling: Post-TotK guides confirm the three Elemental Dragons served Goddess Hylia and underwent 'draconification' potentially via Secret Stones. Draconification is presented as a specific reach of power, sacrificing one's self to reach a 'culmination' of strength. If the dragons are comparable to Secret Stone users and were corrupted by Calamity Ganon’s malice, they COULD also scale to these higher tiers.

This whole argument is built on nothing but "potentially", "if", and "could", which ain't enough to index anything.
Yeah, evidently, they're obviously strong. They have their own feats even, such as splitting a mountain, affecting the atmosphere/weather, and other passive environmental stuff, got a few calced somewhere too, easy tier 7 stuff, some of it is pretty damn deep into it too. Dinraal has an insane one actually.

But that's completely different from scaling them to Secret Stone users.

The first problem is blatantly obvious, that being we don't actually know their base level before draconification. They served Hylia, but serving Hylia doesn't mean shit, lots of people did through the years. They may have been extremely powerful already, or they may not've. We're not given anything usable to quantify or pin something down.

The second problem is that we don't even have hard proof that they used Secret Stones. The word "potentially" kind of outs the problem itself. We don't know (last I checked), if they did. If the guide says they did, then cool, but that legit doesn't help solve the glaring problems.

And third off, is that even if they did use Secret Stones, that still wouldn't do much, nor make them equal to every other Secret Stone dude. Secret Stones don't give everyone some sort of flat value to slap on. They amplify/magnify the power already possessed by them. So the end result depends entirely on their original strength.

Like niche lore and semantic wordings used in game aside, this is self-evident just from Ganondorf as he was already absurd before getting a stone, and the sages were already the top dogs of their races before getting theirs. Yet the gap between base Ganondorf and the base sages ain't necessarily the same as the gap between Demon King Ganondorf and the amplified sages too mind you, as the stones are amplifying what is already there.
That's to say, treating Secret Stones like a multiplier is wrong even just conceptually.

And given I see below talk of calculating a "multiplier" from one's scaling jump, that wouldn't actually be usable. Multipliers have to be directly stated. A fan calc gap ain't a canon multiplier. It's based on assumptions, interpretation, calc method, and scaling placement, sure some of it is educated but all the same, it'll always be subject to that and not something you can safely say was intended. You can't take that and slap that onto unrelated characters.

The fourth (fifth?) problem is draconification itself. Yeah, draconification is clearly a huge increase in power (though I'm unsure how much? Link was still kicking Ganon's ass so...). But that's simply unquantifiable, vague even, not an actual multiplier, the exact tier, or whether all dragons reach the same level even. All we know is process is powerful and irreversible (except when it ain't lmao).

The fifth (6th???) problem is the Calamity Ganon malice point. Being corrupted by malice doesn't mean the dragons scale to Calamity Ganon or the source behind the malice? Characters can be corrupted, possessed, controlled, poisoned, or altered by a higher power without being equal to that higher power in AP. You constantly conflate hax with AP or scaling, you're doing it with AlttP, and now you're doing it here. Not everything is DBZ where 90% of hax is subject to A>B>C biggaton scaling.

So what is this actually?
maybe Secret Stones were involved,
maybe the dragons are comparable to Secret Stone users,
maybe draconification gives a comparable level (we know it doesn't),
maybe corruption implies scaling,
maybe we can calculate a gap and apply it as a multiplier (we can't and we know it isn't).

WAY too many assumptions, maybe one likely assumption is fine, once you're at a flimsy one, let alone multiple, ya gotta tone it back some.

We can obviously scale the dragons to their own feats and direct statements. But as it is, not to Ganondorf, the sages, Secret Stone users in general, or any proposed higher tier without a direct statement or direct feat putting them there.

Spoiler: Golden Sword>TotK/Fight mechanics

At least Based on the Golden Master Sword being the strongest version of the blade imaginable, ALttP and ALBW Link should scale above TotK Link (who uses a Master Sword imbued with divine energy but not 'upgraded' to the Golden form).

This was already answered above.

The "fiercest blade imaginable" line is from ALBW, and ALBW is literally the game where Golden/Lv3 MS + ToC + Light Arrows still only gets Link into a fight with Yuganon.

TotK also has its own later context with Zelda charging the sword for ages specifically to oppose Ganondorf and gloom with far better nuance.

Golden Sword > previous ALttP sword forms? Sure, but over every later Master Sword / full Triforce output? Nuh uh.

Also, it's a canonical fact that the classical master sword attacks bounce off from Ganon in alttp, if the golden master sword could harm Ganon because of his anti evil hax then this should have been the case for the classic Ms as well.

No? Resistance is still a thing.

A stronger sacred weapon having stronger anti-evil properties don't suddenly mean raw AP with the complete Triforce?

Especially because the game itself shows raw attacks don't work.
Bombs? No.
Magic? No.
Normal arrows? No.
Most equipment? No.
Silver Arrows? Yes but only when vulnerable.

You literally have a game where raw offense can't do anything, while special sacred hax methods do, and your conclusion is somehow "ok raw AP scaling"?

And umpteenth time, the worst part is that the Golden Master Sword doesn't actually kill Ganon either. It just stuns/opens him up for a completely different haxed-out item to do real damage. Whatever the Golden Master Sword is doing in ALttP, it most definitely isn't proving direct AP scaling with the full Triforce.

Also, the "classic Master Sword just bounces off" isn't even fully true mechanically. If we're gonna talk about game mechanics, at least get the mechanics right.
The normal Master Sword can affect Ganon to a degree. Even before the Golden Sword, the spin attack can still wear down/stun/interact with his invulnerability state. The Golden Sword is just better at doing it.
Presuming that's what you meant by "classic MS bounces off", it doesn't help you dude. The base Master Sword can already interact with him through the spin attack; the Golden Sword just does it better. That supports stronger anti-evil slop, not full-Triforce AP tbh.

And again, even the Golden Sword still doesn't properly kill him. The actual killing method is still the Silver Arrows, which are explicitly the true finisher and are holy/soulfuckery weapons.
You literally can't beat Ganon to death with raw sword swings.

The fight is basically:

• sacred sword makes him vulnerable
• Silver Arrows do actual damage and finish him off

That's not evidence of anything you'd actually want here. It's the opposite in fact. Link has to abuse holy counters, specific anti stuff, and soul hax to actually put Ganon down.

And you just brought up TotK earlier, yet that game literally revolves around the Master Sword being empowered specifically to better combat Ganondorf and gloom. Its anti properties scale up with the sacred power fed into it too.
Meaning, there's nothing actually contradictory to:

• Default Master Sword having weaker anti-evil interaction
• Golden Sword having stronger anti-evil interaction

without either one scaling to the complete Triforce in raw AP.

If the Golden Sword truly overpowered full-Triforce Ganon physically, the Silver Arrows being mandatory makes no sense. Link should just cut his ass down normally.

But he can't, given the fight is evidently:

• almost nothing working
• vulnerability via Master Sword
• soul hax

not Link physically matching the complete power whatsoever.

This implies a gap in power.

Of course there's a gap, the gap just isn't two infinities and on par with the full Triforce in raw power output, or even two per your own scans.

Spoiler: Why we repeating stuff in the OP

Nothing in the lore states that a Triforce wielder cannot be defeated in combat. The Triforce is an object of desire and a wish-granting engine, but it doesn't grant the user passive 'unbeatable' status. In fact, we know the Triforce itself is not indestructible: in the equivalent version found in A Link Between Worlds, the Triforce of Lorule was actually destroyed. If the source of power can be destroyed or recreated, it follows that a wielder can be overpowered by a sufficient force, like a Hero armed with the Golden Master Sword.

This was already answered above.

This whole paragraph is just mixing like five different things together and acting like they're the same point:

• Triforce wielder can maybe be defeated
• Triforce grants wishes
• Triforce physical object can be destroyed
• Lorule destroyed their Triforce
• ergo Link can overpower full-Triforce Ganon

Yeah, not gonna fly.

And a wielder losing through holy / soul hax doesn't prove AP scaling either.
The physical artifact being breakable doesn't prove its output is physically matched.
And Lorule's Triforce being destroyed actually proves the opposite of what you want, because Lorule couldn't replace it. Their world started collapsing, and only another Triforce-level wish fixed it.

So sucks, but no.
This still doesn't prove Golden Sword AP scales to the full Triforce.

And it still doesn't tackle ALBW, where Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows is only fighting a two-piece Yuganon.

I hope no ones brings the "you can finish the game with normal MS" argument cause we know that for lore this isn't true, just like you can defeat Majora without FD but in lore you use the mask. That's all for now.

No one needs to bring that up given it isn't the actual problem with the CRT my dude.

But for argument's sake, sure, Golden Sword can be the intended / lore-relevant ALttP weapon.
Honestly, I'd agree with that.

But that only informs us of a single fact; "which sword did Link use?"
That has nothing to do with "does the sword's raw AP scale to the full Triforce?"

And as for the Fierce Deity comparison...
Ignoring how Fierce Deity is explicitly noted as the exact method Link used to defeat Majora (so we're not just assuming, it's hard fact), and even framed as basically impossible otherwise in-game to do so without it (so we also know normal Link can't do so in gameplay, much like how TotK frames the Master Sword being required, even though you COULD use a broom), that doesn't actually entail that every canon final boss thingy gives raw AP scaling to the enemy's whole power without more context.

Was the Golden Sword the intended weapon? Yeah probably.
Golden Sword AP scaling to the complete Triforce? Still no.

The actual fight was already covered above, hax ain't AP.

Spoiler: 3-A to 2-C split/Stone Multiplier/OOT Link

But for example, I think the Triforce itself could be 2-C while Ganon's feat is 3-A which is what Link would scale to. Also would u address the other things in the thread? It's not one proposal.

And that there's the core issue with the CRT.
You're trying to arbitrarily split:

• The Triforce's "true" power
• Ganon's usable power from it

specifically so Link can scale to Ganon without scaling to the actual full Triforce.

But that directly contradicts the actual lore, you're acting as if Ganon is just some dude borrowing a tiny combat-applicable fraction of the Triforce?

He's actively presented as the mf who GOT THE FULL THING and consolidated its omnipotent power into himself.

Hyrule Historia outright says Child Timeline Ganondorf failed to "consolidate the omnipotent power of the Triforce within himself", unlike the Downfall Timeline version, like the entire point is that ALttP Ganon DID absorb/consolidate the complete Triforce's power.

You can't simultaneously argue:

• Ganon scales to the Triforce because he absorbed its omnipotent power
• but ALSO the actual feats/power he demonstrates are massively lower and more manageable so Link can scale

Actively backwards reasoning. You're downplaying Ganon specifically to salvage Link scaling.

And gonna say it every single time:

• Lv3/Golden Master Sword
• ToC Link
• Light Arrows
• struggling with Yuganon with ONLY TWO pieces.

That's to say, even if you cap ALttP Ganon at "just 3-A" for some absurd reason, the sequel still guts the idea that the Golden Sword somehow covers the gap to the complete Triforce.

And honestly my dudes? Kind of why the "retroactive outlier" interpretation makes more sense.

Back in early Zelda? Yep, full Triforce Ganon was basically just "big final boss with universe-tier dark world feat" kind of ****** up he was that high even back then.
But later lore massively escalated what the complete Triforce actually means in context:

• omnipotent
• without equal
• all-powerful
• unrivaled
• impossible to oppose
• etc

while ALSO showing even partial Triforce as absurd for later upgraded Links past what even AlttP had.

Fine then, let's thread it as a multiplier. Let's find the multiplier, no? Base Tulin should scale either to Building, Large Building or at best Town level from Molgera (which I don't think so, I don't remember tulin hurting colgera, but correct me on this, I think he scales below his father). Which results that a secret stones give a certain amount of power.
Now, we know that in lore even though they don't fully scale to Ganondorf at all they should scale to a certain value, no? Just like the other Sages, which If I recall correctly you seemed to agree with me. Here your quote.

Yeah no, you honestly just reminded me we gotta go take Ben 10 out back for doing exactly this...
This entire multiplier idea isn't allowed. I explained a bit above but you can't "find the multiplier" by taking some scaling chain, dividing values, and applying that result to totally different characters. That's not a stated multiplier, it's fan slop, shit ain't allowed.

Multipliers need to be directly stated. Otherwise it's just calc-stacking.
And it doesn't even work conceptually for Secret Stones anyway. They amplify the user's existing power, which means the final result depends on the user's starting point.

A random unknown ancient dragon wouldn't automatically get the same "multiplier" as Unc Nando, the rock, the toddler, the suspiciously attractive fish, or Riju.

• "base Tulin is maybe Large Building, stone Tulin is maybe Tier 5, so uhm this gives a multiplier, so the dragons get that multiplier"

Not actually usable, also not actually true (he'd be like tier 7 I'm pretty sure? Then again he's clearly the weakest of the batch so eh maybe, though he does fight Colgera before the Stone and that's the tier 7 dude so...)

It's several layers of assumptions:

• assuming Tulin's base tier
• assuming post-stone Tulin's tier
• assuming the gap is a canon multiplier
• assuming that multiplier applies equally to other users
• assuming the elemental dragons used stones
• assuming their base level
• assuming draconification scales them to the same range

Now, we may run with a handful of those, in fact I'd wager a few are even concretely solid, but it's still just assumptions even if some are quite strong, but stacking them? Huge problem, just stacking guesses.

Draconification doesn't mean anything here. Yeah, it's a huge amp and makes someone into a dragon/godlike thing. But "huge amp" isn't a number, and "godhood" isn't a tier Vaati...

Gods vary wildly in Zelda. Being called a god/divine being doesn't make you comparable to Ganondorf, Hylia, Demise, or anyone or anything specific. Some Gods are literal fodder even. The dragons should scale to their own feats and direct statements. Not to some made-up Secret Stone multiplier obtained from calcs.

why is island level the Link who defeated the Ganon that defeated the small planet level Link resulting in this timeline? You did a good chain scaling for Castlevania, u should know this better.

Because you're ignoring how the fight was won?

ALttP Link didn't just raw dog box Ganon better than OoT Link did. He had an entirely different win condition.

OoT Link didn't have the Silver Arrows. ALttP Link did. That's a ludicrous difference, given that the Silver Arrows are the actual weapon that defeats Ganon. The Golden Sword can stun/open him up, but it doesn't kill him. Without the Silver Arrows, ALttP Link doesn't win either.

Your comparison outright ignores all the actual nuance and context; it ain't:

• ALttP Link > Ganon > OoT Link

It's more like:

• ALttP Link + Golden Sword suppression + Silver Arrow soulfuckery + Moon Pearl/resistance tools (per your own arguments from before) = can defeat this specific Ganon.

Not AP there. This is the same issue from before: you're using a hax leading to a win as if it's anything but.

And if we're comparing to OoT Link specifically, you're also ignoring that OoT Link actually beats Ganon in other timelines. The Downfall split is the version where he loses, but that's not proof that OoT Link is hopeless fodder compared to ALttP Link either. In the other branches, he wins just fine.

Like all you're doing is grossly oversimplifying "ALttP Link succeeded where OoT Link failed".

ALttP Link had a tremendously haxy tool that OoT Link didn't. If OoT Link had the Silver Arrows, he'd probably blow ToP Ganon tf out too. The more you emphasize Silver Arrows, the less this becomes AP scaling, this was a major issue last time you pulled this too.

Also, again, the direct sequel.
ALBW Link has the upgraded/Golden Master Sword, the Triforce of Courage, and Light Arrows, and he's still fighting Yuganon with only two pieces as a real fight.

So using ALttP as "Golden Sword Link scales to full Triforce Ganon" doesn't even get past the sequel's own scaling. But important to note here, I forget if I said this above but...
The ToC is explicitly treated as being greater than just the Master Sword in ALBW, you spend half the game getting it because without its amp, Link can't contend with two-piece Yuganon, and that's something OoT Link has, on top of that, OoT Link is further boosted by multiple Sages, he's basically running around with a what, 6x amp? Which is to say, not only is your simplified contextless scaling dubious, OoT Link in turn has a lot of extra caveats AlttP Link lacks, making any direct scaling complicated or even unquantifiable.

Like is "ALttP Link is secretly way above OoT Link in raw stats? Idk, could be, could not be, but most certainly not because of your argument here. ALttP Link won through a specific counter OoT Link didn't have, and that counter doesn't indicate AP scaling.

Also man don't do any of that "you did this, you should know better" shit, argue the actual points.

Spoiler: Calamity Ganon repeat/"proposed chain"

Because the body is sealed and calamity Ganon is still a product of his, so he is doing it in a certain way. This way, canonical source saying calamity Ganon causes it doesn't randomly get discarded, saying that Ganondorf's power causes it is true, his hatred (calamity Ganon) at his peak does.

Already answered above.

"Calamity Ganon is a product of Ganondorf" doesn't mean the Calamity body scales to the full source.
The sealed body point is completely irrelevant.
His power leaking through the weakening seal is literally why the Calamity exists.

So unless a new post TotK source restates that the Calamity itself is the actual Blood Moon source, the feat is simply Ganondorf's.

I'll make it more clear. My proposal outside of 3-A ALTTP Link is:

5-A ALBW Link because Golden MS > MS that totk Link uses (it has a lot of divine energy, but golden ms it's called strongest blade imaginable, I just thought that a lot of energized golden ms could scale to 3-A for alttp link), but if golden MS > totk MS gets rejected it should still scale to 5-C as at least because of true MS from SS, now i'll explain

No. The ALBW "fiercest blade imaginable" statement is from ALBW's own context. Ignoring how you keep wanting to differentiate the ALBW and AlttP Golden Swords anyway (meaning the statement doesn't even apply to AlttP per your own standards). It doesn't cover TotK, a game that didn't exist yet and introduced a totally new Master Sword state.

TotK's Master Sword isn't just "normal MS but not gold". It was restored and charged with sacred power by Zelda for an absurd length of time using a source of power that humiliates the Great Fairy. A completely different context.

Also, if you're taking ALBW's Golden Sword statement as absolute, it outright backfires on you dude, ALBW Link with that same upgraded sword, plus ToC and Light Arrows, still has to fight with Yuganon with only two pieces and it's not at all framed like he stomped him, the game even goes out of its way to say without the ToC to compensate, you may as well not even try.

So no, Golden Sword > TotK MS isn't established.

5-C hylia, demise, and SS Link so true master sword (who is different from classical because of more blessing and divine energy, guides make it clear, but confirmed below GOLDEN MS) because they should scale above calamity ganon who is causing a 5-C already calculated blood moon feat.

Calamity Ganon doesn't get the Blood Moon feat anymore after TotK's context, post a new recent statement or drop it.
If Calamity doesn't get the Blood Moon feat, this entire Demise/Hylia/SS Link 5-C chain loses its foundation.
But as outlined above, that doesn't even matter because they wouldn't scale either way as it's not "just hate" despite the arguments presenting it as such.

Possibly all 5-A if we accept the totk guide saying Dragons went over draconification of stone gems and we have seen stone gems users scaling from 5-A ganondorf (not dragon one)

Secret Stones amplify the user's existing power. They're not a fixed upgrade. Ganondorf with a stone is ridiculous because Ganondorf was already ridiculous. The sages with stones are different results because they have different bases.

Draconification isn't a set value either, and would just lead to circular infinite scaling anyway given Link can take their energy output anyway. But anyway, it makes someone a dragon/godlike being, yet godhood ain't a tier and dragons aren't all automatically equal.

so the scale would be:
if only 5-C accepted:

ALBW Link > hylia = demise = link SS > calamity ganon

if dragons or golden MS > totk MS or both upscale to 5-A accepted

ALBW Link > Totk Link > Dragon Ganon > Hylia = SS Link = Demise > Dragons (5-A) = stone gem ganondorf >>> Calamity Ganon (5C)

This ain't a scaling chain, it's a multitude of assumptions.

Golden Sword > TotK MS is unproven.
TotK Link > Dragon Ganon needs its own context and doesn't scale back to ALBW.
Hylia = SS Link = Demise isn't even true (Link's above all of them), and def not above TotK dragon/Ganondorf stuff without direct scaling. In fact your own argument is baffling now, you've gone this whole thread talking about sacred energy this, stored power that, yet you think they would scale to the feat a Ganon did who needed a sword that is basically Hylia x 10,000+ years x the base sword that kicked his ass?

Dragons = stone Ganondorf is completely unsupported.
Calamity Ganon 5-C relies on an outdated BotW interpretation recontextualized by TotK.

Basically every link heh here is either unsupported, outdated, or not scalable.

ALTTP Link if 3-A doesn't get accepted he would at least scale a bit below ALBW Link

Even that doesn't make sense.
AlttP and ALBW being connected doesn't mean you can freely scale ALttP Link to ALBW Link's entire final thing, especially when ALBW Link has ToC and Light Arrows involved against Yuganon.
It would do you good to go back and play ALBW. Despite having, per your own arguments, a stronger Master Sword, the ToC was such a tremendous boost to his power that the game actively goes out of its way to hammer in Link before-and-after are functionally entirely different in scope of power.
Which means, ALBW Link eclipses AlttP Link, because he eclipses himself without the ToC.

Spoiler: Sword, Arrows, and Aghanim

ALBW link has same sword, but since the Ms power depends on the energy it contains, it is more than fair to assume that the fairy boosted the sword since the official guides confirm that sages, fairy etc usually Amp the sword in order to maintain its power.

You're still just asserting the very thing your CRT needs to actually prove.
Yeah ok, the Master Sword can be empowered. TotK literally revolves around that very concept.
Again:
"the sword can receive sacred energy" =/= "this specific Golden Sword closes the gap to the complete Triforce".

And ALBW still completely screws this argument.
But outlined above, still doesn't work. Per your own logic, a random fairy would somehow be powerful enough to give enough magic to it to rival the Full Triforce? That's actually insane, there's just a fairy laying around who's on par with the "no-equal-all-powerful-unrivaled" artifact? Let alone just "equal to 10,000 years of Hylia juice (if not Triforce suckling)". Like who tf is this fairy to go against multiple statements saying otherwise?

Before striking with the silver arrows you need to weaken Ganon with sword blows, you can't just shoot them at Ganon.

Yes. That's called vulnerability creation. You are literally describing a layered hax interaction, what are we doing?

• sacred sword suppresses/staggers/weaken invulnerability (but never actually can kill him no matter how many times he's struck)
• Silver Arrows perform the actual kill (via hax)

There is like, unironically zero AP here, ignoring the Triforce entirely even.
Especially because the sword STILL doesn't kill him.
And again, mechanically, even the normal Master Sword can interact with Ganon somewhat.

And what do you mean "on purpose", you've been cherry picking what to run with basically this whole thread, the game also "on purpose" let's the normal one hit with a spin attack, codes various things to be immune to, etc. Kind of just picking and choosing what gameplay you wanna run with here.

And again, the game on purpose makes the classic Ms bouncing off Ganon, so it's not like the golden ms hurts him just for the anti evil hax and not because it's ap scales to Ganon.

Repeating yourself: except the Golden Sword DOESN'T properly hurt him either. That's the issue.
It stuns him and leaves him vulnerable.
The actual killing method is still the Silver Arrows.

If the Golden Sword truly overpowered full-Triforce Ganon physically, then the Silver Arrows being mandatory makes absolutely no sense. Link should just cut him down normally.
But he can't.

Plus, I don't see the problem with Ganon being 3-A but above Link, and Link downscaling from that value. It's not like all 3-A have the same exact AP, or we wouldn't have Chain scaling in-verse.

Because you're artificially lowering Ganon specifically to salvage Link scaling. The entire reason full-Triforce Ganon is treated so absurdly is because he consolidated the complete Triforce's omnipotent power into himself.
You can't simultaneously argue:

• Ganon absorbed/consolidated the full Triforce's omnipotent power
• the Triforce is all-powerful/unrivaled/without equal
• ALBW shows even partial Triforce users are massive hurdles

while ALSO trying to carve out a lil wee convenient "manageable combat output" tier JUST low enough for Link to scale, like you are unironically so fixated on giving Link a big number, you're trying to downgrade the single legit big number, just so it doesn't seem AS bad, yet not even that works because we are told, flat out, Ganon has the whole thing. Not an infinitesimal fraction, but all of it.

Also ALBW. Also "not all 3-A's the same", isn't even a relevant argument as they're working off the same feat here.

Yeah sure, this thing being repeated for the seventh time won't save you guys from addressing Agahnim statement and explaining why it should be an outlier or the other points the thread makes besides alttp. Or why alttp link scales several tiers below the link that got owned by the same Ganon.

On the Agahnim line, the raw doesn't say what you're trying to make it say. Copying from last time given we literally had this exact talk before so I know you know this.

The line is:

しょせん伝説の『勇者』も
『黄金の力』を持つ、われらが
魔族には、かないませんか。

The relevant part is

『黄金の力』を持つ、われらが魔族

Which is more like

"we demons, who possess the Golden Power"

or more naturally, in the actual context:

"our demon kind / our side, now possessing the Golden Power"

That's collective possession, not evenly distributed empowerment among all the goons.

It doesn't mean:

"I, Agahnim, personally scale to the Triforce"

or even:

"every demon is individually amped by the full Golden Power"

Contextually it's more like:

• our side has it
• the demon side now holds it
• the power belongs to the faction I'm part of
• our lord / our camp / our faction has obtained it

It's basically the same as someone saying:

"You can't beat us, we have Metal Gear nukes".

That doesn't mean every soldier's punches scale to a nuke. It means their faction has that power on their side, which, yuh huh, Ganon has it.

And the official English versions line up with this anyway. The SNES/GBA line is:

"After all, the legendary Hero cannot defeat us, the tribe of evil, when we are armed with the Power of Gold".

Same idea. It's not saying every demon gets to personally suckle off full Triforce output.

The game also makes the single-holder context clear elsewhere:

"The man who last claimed the Power Of Gold wished for this world. It reflects his heart".

Note, how not only does that point to Ganon as the actual holder/wisher, it even specifies he was the person last in possession of it.
And Hyrule Historia's "consolidated the omnipotent power of the Triforce within himself" exacerbates this. Consolidated means gathered/combined into one holder, not evenly distributed among Agahnim and every random demon. It'd be an oxymoron if it were.

This doesn't even make sense, we KNOW the Triforce can't do that? It splits up if someone doesn't have the right spirit forcing recollection, could you imagine extrapolating that to every lil gremlin scrimblo?
Agahnim's line only proves Ganon's side had the Golden Power, which yeah they did.
But not that Agahnim personally scales to the full Triforce (in fact we know he doesn't).
It sure af doesn't prove the demon tribe individually scales to the full Triforce either.
And it definitely does not prove Link gets full Triforce AP for beating Agahnim or Ganon.

TLDR:
Golden Sword upscaling normal/default Master Sword stuff? I'm fine with that. Wind Waker for example, that might work? Base Master Sword comparisons are probably fair enough depending on context.

Golden Sword being above every later Master Sword with its own specific context that deviates from the default? No. TotK, OoT, ALBW, etc. all have their own nuances, you'd need actual proof for those, not just "gold sword best sword".

ALttP Link scaling to full-Triforce Ganon? Also no. Keep that shit out of here. The fight is loaded with caveats: sacred weapon interaction, Silver Arrows, soul/durability-negating hax, Ganon not being killable normally, ALBW directly undermining the Golden Sword gap, and decades of Triforce lore treating the full thing as incomparable.

Lorule destroying their Triforce? And water is wet, dude. Artifact durability =/= artifact output =/= Ganon's empowered stats.

Calamity Ganon doesn't get TotK Ganondorf's Blood Moon scaling after TotK recontextualized everything.

Secret Stone "multipliers" are rule breaking even. They're not stated multipliers, they amplify the user's existing power, and trying to calc a gap from one dude and slap it onto unrelated characters is just calc-stacking headcanon. Draconification is vague too, not a fixed tier or number.

So basically:
Golden Sword > default/base Master Sword? Aight idc.
Golden Sword > every special Master Sword ever? No.
Link > full-Triforce Ganon in raw AP? Absolutely not.
Secret Stone multiplier chains / dragon scaling chains / Demise upscales from Calamity? Way too much assumptions, most of which are provably false anyway.

This is to say, I basically agree with Dust.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Nobody is arguing the fight didn't happen

Somebody is arguing Ganon didn't have the triforce during that fight.

Man why we larping?

Bruh my bad I wanted to say they are from the same timeline and direct successor to the other.

That's literally why PIS/outliers exist as concepts to begin with.
Batman hurting cosmic heralds happened too.
Goku getting cut by gunfire happened too.
That doesn't mean every absurd scaling implication from those scenes stays consistent

Goku against gunfire isn't the main theme of an arc tho, it's not Goku against the final boss of tournament of power. It's an isolated random scene.

An outlier has to be against the narrative.

but also:

• "ALBW's Golden Sword doesn't count because ALttP's Golden Sword could maybe be way stronger

Nah, my argument is that golden master sword is overall above master sword, base wise, but then you can infuse it with more power.
How to explain it, you can say golden masters word is the most powerful sword and still have it being oscillating in power, just like the master sword is in other games.

Just a normal Great Fairy. Great Fairies, who are weaker than even a single piece of the Triforce

She was in the dark world tho, I can totally argue that in order to survive there she adapted to that world and got stronger.

The Moon Pearl can interfere with, redirect or exempt Link from a specific magical effect without scaling to the full Triforce's actual power

Moon pearl doesn't scale to the power of full triforce, of course, but it proves that the so called omnipotent artifact even though it has strong hax on universal scale there is still an item that can oppose such hax layer. If an object can interfere with an omnipotent wish from the most powerful object in the franchise, and nullify his magic hax, why cannot a sword scale somewhat to it in raw power?

Moon Pearl doesn't even counter, negate, or nullify its magic,

Except it does. Hyrule Historia: "The Moon Pearl: A jewel that repels magic. It protects the bearer from the evil power of the Demon King who controls the Dark World, and prevents any transformation to the bearer when they cross into the Dark World from the Light World." if the moon pearl can repel the magic (hax) of an omnipotent wish from the most powerful bla bla why cannot a sword scale to its ap because the triforce is omnipotent? The triforce is actually omnipotent for his wish property and yet, it can be repeled.

all-powerful reality-warping artifact.
The reason it grants wishes is because it's that powerful. Wish-granting isn't some disconnected lil side hax unrelated to the Triforce's actual power. It's one expression of the same power you're trying to scale from

This is even worse then, since the moon pearl can repel the same reality warping from the omnipotent all powerful artifact. So its power isn't this omnipotent. Hyperbole exists.

Calamity Ganon is a manifestation / offshoot of his malice,

Exactly, so why shouldn't calamity Ganon get the feat when the context makes it clear that he does it? The new context doesn't contradict this at all. It's somewhat still Ganondorf that is indirectly, with his manifestation of hatred doing it, causing a blood moon. You cannot cancel two entire games where calamity Ganon is causing it.

empowered by a Secret Stone,

He isn't in that sealed mummy form, the game explicitly states that when Ganondorf uses his power he has his dark king form.

The fifth (6th???) problem is the Calamity Ganon malice point. Being corrupted by malice doesn't mean the dragons scale to Calamity Ganon

I actually agree with this, it's an hax, in fact I do think dragons should scale to 5-A while Ganon to 5-C.
It wasn't my implication, but I'll take responsibility if I spelled it out wrongly.

Just like the Aganhim statement, I am currently bringing it for those like glass who are opposed to the idea of Ganon having triforce after the sealing war. Not claiming Aganhim is being boosted by it, even though I do think it's still the case even though I am not right now using that statement for that, the manual says it.

The stones being a multiplier is confirmed in the totk guide masterworks, actually, but fine.

The counter argument for Ganon is weak. It's actually easy. Ganon is the product of Ganondorf's malice and hatred. Ganon causes blood moons, this means Ganondorf indirectly does it, but why shouldn't Ganon the product of Ganondorf power somewhat scale to mummy Ganondorf and get that 5-C rating? Ganondorf it's his source of power, and the guides link Ganon to blood moons, so it's all linked.
Since Mummy Ganondorf isn't actively using the stone and it's being sealed, it's more than clear that the product of his own hatred should scale below demise lore wise.

 

[Dalesean027]

Chariot and Dust arguments make the most sense to me here

 

[OrangeFR]

I agree with Chariot here.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Goku against gunfire isn't the main theme of an arc tho, it's not Goku against the final boss of tournament of power. It's an isolated random scene.

An outlier has to be against the narrative.

That's not an outlier is determined what are you talking about?

Nah, my argument is that golden master sword is overall above master sword, base wise, but then you can infuse it with more power.
How to explain it, you can say golden masters word is the most powerful sword and still have it being oscillating in power, just like the master sword is in other games.

So you're just arguing... something everyone already agrees with? Nobody is against the Golden Sword being above the regular Master Sword and could still get stronger, just that there's nothing really in favour of it in ALTTP specifically going from being notably inferior to individual Triforce pieces to being almost as strong as the full thing because a Great Fairy poked it.

She was in the dark world tho, I can totally argue that in order to survive there she adapted to that world and got stronger.

By all means post the proof that she did.

Exactly, so why shouldn't calamity Ganon get the feat when the context makes it clear that he does it? The new context doesn't contradict this at all. It's somewhat still Ganondorf that is indirectly, with his manifestation of hatred doing it, causing a blood moon. You cannot cancel two entire games where calamity Ganon is causing it.

Dude they simply retconned the fact that Calamity Ganon causes the blood moons. TOTK, AOI, and the Masterworks go out of there way to establish the blood moons are done by Ganondorf. Just pasting what's said in just on pafe 387 of the Masterworks:

また、魔物と密接な関係にあると推測される 「赤き月」が、魔王 誕生の際にも昇ったという。赤き月は魔王の力が満ちる刻に出現し 「地上をさまよう魔物の魂が再び肉体を取り戻す」とされている。
Also, the ‘blood moon’ which is supposed to have a close relationship to monsters ascended on the occasion of the Demon King’s birth. It’s said that the blood moon rises at the height of the Demon King’s power and ‘the spirits of the monsters who wander the surface will once again be returned to flesh’.

It makes specific note the blood moon linked to monsters ascended when Ganondorf became the demon king, and it's when he's at the height of his power that it rises again. Yes originally it was Calamity Ganon causing the blood moon, prior to TOTK releasing he would be moon level, but then they changed his lore including how the blood moons became a thing. It's a simple retcon, he used to be the reason behind it, but now it's the real Ganondorf that's the source of the blood moon.

He isn't in that sealed mummy form, the game explicitly states that when Ganondorf uses his power he has his dark king form.

The game doesn't say that, in fact the stone reacts when he lifts up Hyrule castle just moments after he awakes from his seal while still in his crusty mummified form. Rauru didn't hit the off switch when he sealed away Ganon, he used the seal and his body to constantly try and drain the magic that was amped by the stone to purify it.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

So what's the consensus here so far?

 

[Lgamer099_99]

So what's the consensus here so far?

Basically everyone disagrees with me for very different reasons, while a lot of users don't actually have an opinion and wait for others, while some other address just one side.
The ones who addressed more things are Chariot and dust, who pretty much disagree with everything but I recognize that at least they gave their input to it and addressed it all.

Plus, I found that in encyclopedia the developers wrote literally the word hurt when you fight Ganon, so u indeed hurt him not just stun, still the outlier argument bla bla IK.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what's the consensus here so far?

2 Moderator disagreements and most other disagree with the OP.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Chariot 100%.

 

[Chariot190]

Spoiler: 3-A downscale / Light Arrow consistency

1. I repeat this again, Triforce can be 3-A and have a finite higher value while Link could scale still 3-A but below it, how would this contradict anything?

Because you're still skipping the actual step that matters?

"Same tier but lower" only works when the character actually scales through AP in the first place.

If Ganon is 3-A because of the Triforce / Dark World / wish / reality-warping slop, you still have to prove Link's physical attacks scale to that output.

You don't get to just go:

• "Ganon has a 3-A thing going on"
• "Link won"
• "so Link downscales to 3-A"

That's literally the entire thing being contested.

Obviously 3-A characters can have different values.

The issue is you're trying to carve out a lil convenient combat-output tier for Ganon specifically so Link can scale, while ignoring that:

• Ganon's big rating comes from the full Triforce / Dark World / Golden Power context
• the fight is not won through raw damage
• Silver Arrows are the actual kill condition
• the Golden Sword doesn't kill him
• Ganon isn't normally killable
• ALBW later shoots this in the back of the head

Like "finite 3-A but Link is lower 3-A" doesn't do anything, it just makes this obviously a biggaton issue, not a legit indexing issue.

You just restate the same assumption with a smaller number attached, which mind you, makes no sense given this isn't two characters scaling to the same tier via dif means so them being different while one retains superiority is possible, it's the same thing you're trying to scale him off.

You still have to prove Link scales through AP. You haven't, you can't.

2. We literally have a whole chainscaling regarding light arrows, which just stun Ganon, and yet we have a whole cross-scaling from twinrova because of that. For consistency we should absolutely threat the Golden master sword in the same way. And BTW, light arrows do have anti evil hax, so you should explain why an anti evil weapon who just stun opt Ganondorf we gave it "ap" because twinrova can tank it, when it could be resistance to that hax instead of the arrows being powerful ap wise, if we wanna follow your own logic here. Be consistent, I am fine with downgrading characters and not make them scale from twinrova if that's the case, but at least the method we apply should be consistent and not biased.

Then maybe that chain should be looked at too? I'll look into it later, because I know some aspects of the chain is fine more or less given that makes Ganondorf upscale.

Like, unironically, if your best argument is:

• "well this other chain might also be treating hax like AP in a specific step of the like twenty step chain"

then that's not a legit defense of this scaling?

You're just admitting the same problem might exist somewhere else, in which case, idk I'll look into it, for all I know it could be perfectly legit and it's just being taken out of context here.

But this doesn't even work regardless. A Light Arrow having AP, hax, or both depends on the exact scene, the exact target, and what's actually being tanked.

If Twinrova physically tanks Light Arrows as damaging projectiles, then yeah, maybe there's an AP thing there. And the Light Arrows also still have base AP (in fact it's more accurate to say they're less duraneg, and more damage boost relative to the source of evil... Lil bit roundabout but it's not straightforward).

But if your argument is just "Light Arrows stun / affect evil targets, so everyone who interacts with them scales to Ganon", then yeah, that sus af too.

But none of that validates the Golden Sword full-Triforce AP.
The Golden Sword in ALttP does not kill Ganon.
It just makes him vulnerable so something else entirely can.

Your consistency argument isn't consistency, it's just trying to pull a two-wrongs-make-a-right while not even bothering to show context.

Consistency doesn't mean copying a bad assumption. It means applying the standard properly.

So either:

• Light Arrow scaling has real AP evidence in its own context, in which case it doesn't automatically transfer to Golden Sword anyway

or

• Light Arrow scaling is just hax/resistance being mistaken for AP, in which case yeah, downgrade that too

Either way dude, ain't gonna work.

Spoiler: OOT/ALBW/Prophecy

3. Where was confirmed that ALBW is weaker than oot one exactly? He literally fought a 2 pieces Yuganon.

Tbh, ALBW Link to OoT Link isn't even relevant.

Fact of the matter is that ALBW is a direct sequel/contextual follow-up where Link has:

• Golden/Lv3 Master Sword
• Triforce of Courage
• Light Arrows

and Yuganon with ONLY TWO pieces is still a major threat.

If an arguably even weaker Golden Sword was some full-Triforce infinite amp, then a two-piece Yuganon shouldn't be an issue. ALBW fighting two-piece Yuganon proves the exact opposite of Golden Sword reaching full Triforce.
It's hard confirmation that even with Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows, a partial Triforce opponent is still a serious hurdle. And even worse, the Golden Sword is framed as being inferior to the ToC by itself by that very game itself.

Using ALBW to gas the Golden Sword while ignoring what ALBW actually does with that same sword is just self-sabotage, like what we doing chat?

4. Oot Link also had light arrows and other helps at his disposal, yet failed while alttp link alone won.

This is oversimplified as hell, you need to stop doing this. A lot of your arguments remove the nuance, context, and details from things, you can't be doing that.

First off, OoT Link doesn't just "fail", The Downfall Timeline is the only branch where he loses. In the other branches, he wins. Ganon had to omegadiff his ass and lucked out.

Meaning you can't just treat "OoT Link failed" as some absolute proof that ALttP Link raw outstats him, it wasn't that simple.

Second, ALttP Link didn't win "alone" in the way you're implying, at all.

He won with a very specific kit and very specific win condition:

• Golden Sword suppression / opening
• Silver Arrows as the actual kill method
• Moon Pearl / resistance tools
• sacred anti-evil slop
• Ganon being vulnerable to a specific holy/soul-destroying thing

OoT Link had Light Arrows.
ALttP Link had Silver Arrows.

Those aren't even the same thing, they don't even have the same hax, Light works better relative to how evil the target is, boosting the damage, while still having a default power value (stated the strongest of the 3 arrows, and a few other direct power statements), while Silver is soul obliterating hax. As before, if OoT Link had those too, you'd be damn sure there'd be no Downfall.

The whole reason ALttP Link winning doesn't upscale him (besides later lore and yap), is because his win is tied to a specific countermeasure OoT Link did not have.

The more you emphasize "ALttP had the thing that actually kills Ganon", the less AP scaling you're gonna get.

5. The lore makes clear that the hero can face the evil with full Triforce.

...Do you know the prophecy of
the Great Cataclysm?
This is the way I heard it...

If a person who has an evil
heart gets the Triforce, a Hero
is destined to appear

It is ironic that the last one in
the line has the potential to
become the Hero of legend.

Surely you can destroy Ganon!

Plus, @Theglassman12 the Triforce itself while speaking is basically saying that Ganon was still sustaining the Dark world, which is a 3-A feat.
Triforce :
Once he had stored up power there, Ganon intended come out into the World of Light in order to fulfill his wish.
However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well.
The Triforce is waiting for a new owner. The "Golden Power" is in your hands.

Plus it confirms again Agahnim statement, the Triforce tells Link that the Golden power is now in his hands, which is exactly the same sentence Agahnim used when stated that they had the Golden power.
So, in the end, is even the legendary "Hero" is no match for we demons who hold the "Golden Power".

No? The lore makes clear that a Hero is destined to appear and oppose/destroy Ganon.
It ain't saying "the Hero's raw AP equals the full Triforce lmao"

A destined hero can maul a stronger evil through:

• hax
• holy weapons
• special weaknesses
• sealing
• prophecy bullshit
• specific items
• scripted win conditions

without physically matching the dude's full power source.

That's not even rare. Fantasy 101 over here.

The line:

• "If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear"

doesn't say:

• "the Hero will be powerful enough to rival the full Triforce",

or anything to that effect.

It says a Hero appears.
That's very cool.
I agree.
ALttP Link be that Hero.
He beat Ganon.
Still not raw AP tho.

And the Triforce ending means nothing. Yah, Ganon was sustaining / tied to the Dark World, when Ganon falls, the Dark World disappears, the Golden Power then passes to Link / is in Link's hands.

Not a single step of of that proves Link rawdog punched through Ganon's full Triforce output.

Exploiting like ten weakness and using hax exclusively doesn't mean one's raw power scales to the realm-sustaining mf.
Especially when the game itself makes the actual kill method the Silver Arrows.

And the "Golden Power is in your hands" line actually helps my Agahnim point earlier.
That phrase is about possession / ownership / the power being held by someone.

When the Triforce says the Golden Power is in Link's hands, it means Link now has possession of it.
It doesn't mean Link's base stats now equal the Triforce, given Link didn't do what Ganon did, he's just using it is a one-off, not amping himself.
Same thing with Agahnim.

When he says "we demons who hold the Golden Power", it just means their side / faction / Ganon has it.
That ain't the same as Agahnim, every demon, or Link physically scaling to the full thing.

So unfortunately, the prophecy proves Link is the destined counter, how and why kind of matters though.
The ending proves Ganon's fall ends the Dark World and Link gains possession of the Golden Power which is functionally irrelevant.
Agahnim's line ain't even saying what you think it is.

None of that proves:

• Golden Sword = full Triforce AP
• Link's sword swings = Ganon's realm-sustaining output
• Agahnim = full Triforce
• demons lol = full Triforce
• Moon Pearl / Silver Arrows / Light Arrows / sacred tools = raw stat parity

Same exact issue as months ago, nothing changed, so much so I'm willing to push for a discussion rule now.

Spoiler: Ganon having the Triforce / outlier stuff again (skip if you get the premise)

Somebody is arguing Ganon didn't have the triforce during that fight.

Well yeah but we're gonna ignore that, it is still irrelevant to your OP. You acted like we need to deny Ganon had the Triforce for your AP scaling to fail?

This is the same thing again:

• Ganon had the Triforce? Aight.
• Ganon was empowered by the Golden Power? Mhmm.
• ALttP Link beat Ganon? I'd think so.
• Link's raw AP scaling to the full Triforce? No.

You keep acting like proving the first three proves the fourth.
It doesn't, and it never will.

Link can beat Ganon, and whether Ganon had the amp, didn't have the amp, or anything it-between is completely irrelevant.

Bruh my bad I wanted to say they are from the same timeline and direct successor to the other.

You should fact check first, given that "same hero" wording was literally wrong and changed the very argument you were making. But even with the corrected point, ALBW being a direct successor makes my point worse for you, because, again, ALBW is the game where:

• Golden/Lv3 Master Sword
• Triforce of Courage
• Light Arrows

still has to fight a two-piece Yuganon as an actual final boss, it isn't casual, and the Golden Sword is literally not enough and you need the ToC.

So essentially you simply clarified the context that makes your own Golden Sword argument suspect.

Goku against gunfire isn't the main theme of an arc tho, it's not Goku against the final boss of tournament of power. It's an isolated random scene.

This is such a arbitrary distinction.
"Important scene" has nothing to do with "every scaling implication is consistent and it can never be faulty".

Final boss fights can have nonsensical scaling implications.
Major plot scenes can have nonsensical scaling implications.
Climaxes can have nonsensical scaling implications.

Being important doesn't make something impossible to be inconsistent, hell most of the time it's those exact scenes that have that very absurdities attached. Ever heard of PIS?

And I already gave other examples anyway.
Batman punching out herald-tier characters in important runs.
Secret Wars nonsense, like that's all over the place.
Hierophant Green holding back Star Platinum (lmao it wishes).
Johnny's Tusk having two infinite feats because Hirohiko Araki wasn't thinking despite being critical to defeating key foes.
Whatever FF7 Rebirth was smoking.

Pick whatever example you want, the principle doesn't change.

The event happening and mattering narratively does NOT mean every AP implication from it stays coherent with later context.

And Zelda's later context absolutely does not support Golden Sword Link raw-scaling to the full Triforce.

An outlier has to be against the narrative.

This is genuinely baffling. No it doesn't. Where in the world did you hear that?

An outlier is a feat or scaling implication that doesn't fit the general power portrayal of the context or character. Doesn't matter if it's trivial, minor, major, or the most important thing in the entire setting.

And even if I accepted your arbitrary definition for five seconds, whether you want to admit it or not, AP Link scaling to full-Triforce Ganon IS against the later narrative.

It's against:

• full Triforce being treated as supreme / ultimate / without equal
• full Triforce being massively above partial Triforce dudes
• ALBW making a two-piece Yuganon a serious fight even with Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows
• ALttP requiring Silver Arrows and specific sacred win conditions
• Ganon not being killable no matter what even with the Golden Sword

You're trying to isolate ALttP in a lil vacuum because that's the only way the scaling doesn't instantly fall apart.
Hate to break it to you, we aren't in 1991 anymore.

Spoiler: Golden Sword/Headcanon

Nah, my argument is that golden master sword is overall above master sword, base wise, but then you can infuse it with more power.

Which didn't happen in ALttP on the level you need. It got buffed to Golden and that was that, nothing else happened after the fact so you can't even argue "it got buffed and then juiced way further".

"Golden Sword is above base Master Sword" is ok. I already said I can accept Golden Sword upscaling normal/default Master Sword stuff depending on context, I'll even argue it if you can direct me to even a single person in this thread saying the Golden one isn't above the basic default, but that isn't what you're actually arguing, is it?

What you need is:

• Golden Sword = full Triforce AP

or at least:

• Golden Sword closes the multi-infinite gap to full-Triforce Ganon

You have NOT proven that.

Why do people keep doing this? Every thread, just retreating to the "safe version" of an argument like:

• "Golden Sword > base Master Sword"

then trying to act as if such a mundane claim acts a evidence for incomprehensibly more drastic claim actually being argued:

• "Golden Sword reaches full-Triforce Ganon"

That isn't even the same argument anymore yet you keep acting like it is.

How to explain it, you can say golden masters word is the most powerful sword and still have it being oscillating in power, just like the master sword is in other games.

If the Golden Sword statement is absolute, then ALBW ruins whatever point you might have had, because ALBW's Golden Sword still doesn't encroach the gap to full Triforce.

If sword power "oscillates", then the Golden Sword statement stops proving it's above every later Master Sword with its own context, nuance, and caveats.

What makes you think you can argue:

• "Golden Sword is strongest because statement"

then the second ALBW/TotK, or really anything that proves you point isn't actually true, becomes inconvenient:

• "well actually sword power oscillates so maybe ALttP's Golden Sword was secretly way stronger"

That's not evidence, you're backpedaling and all to create an excuse that doesn't even support or prove the point you're trying to push?

She was in the dark world tho, I can totally argue that in order to survive there she adapted to that world and got stronger.

No, you can't "totally argue" that.

There is NO statement she adapted.
There is NO statement she got stronger.
There is NO statement the Dark World boosted her.
There is NO statement she absorbed Triforce-level power.
There is NO statement she can juice the Master Sword anywhere near the full Triforce.
There is NO statement it'd even matter given a Great Fairy would still be well and above most fodder and danger there.
There IS a metric fuckton of statements saying the Triforce's power is totally and utterly incomparable though, after that character came into existence, from multiple sources including WoG.

Meaning, no, this is honestly insulting as an argument. You're not even making an argument anymore, you're inventing lore because you don't have one. And if we can just do that, why stop there?

Maybe every Dark World shopkeeper adapted to tier 1?
Maybe every random monster is full-Triforce-adjacent now? actually aren't you basically arguing that...
Maybe the random chickens scales to the Golden Power too?

At this point, intentional or not, your argument is starting to look like your just decided on the funny number first and your "evidence" is being formed around it.

Which is precisely why unsupported "could have" conjecture never gets indexed starting to feel like a Mario thread.... The fact you had to pull that kind of argument makes this feel like it's less about actual evidence and more what you can throw out and pray somehow gets you your end goal.

Like to be completely blunt: your argument looking a lot less like "what does the evidence actually support?" and more like "how do I force the funny number?" The audacity to go "maybe the fairy adapted to the Dark World and got strong enough to juice the Master Sword to full-Triforce levels", implies we're not dealing with actual proof anymore. We're dealing with straight up headcanon being used instead of anything of the actual material, let alone anything that's even real.

At least engage with what was actually argued instead of replying with outright conjecture. People are putting in the time to answer your actual claims, so responding with stuff that has literally zero foundation behind it just makes this whole thread spiral into being a waste of both our time.

Spoiler: Moon Pearl isn't power

Moon pearl doesn't scale to the power of full triforce, of course, but it proves that the so called omnipotent artifact even though it has strong hax on universal scale there is still an item that can oppose such hax layer. If an object can interfere with an omnipotent wish from the most powerful object in the franchise, and nullify his magic hax, why cannot a sword scale somewhat to it in raw power?

Man are you not actually reading the argument? And I don't mean that in the usual "oh you disagree! you just don't understand" thing people often do. I was extremely clear last post and you just conveniently ignored the nuance entirely.

Anyway, you keep phrasing the Moon Pearl like it's overpowering, nullifying, negating, or brute-forcing the Triforce's magic.
It isn't.

The Japanese manual says:
闇の世界に行った人間は、その姿を自分の心の中を映し出したものに変えられてしまいます。
ただし、トライフォースの力を操る水晶玉「ムーンパール」があれば、それを防ぐことができます。

This lil bit here:
トライフォースの力を操る水晶玉「ムーンパール」
Meaning:
"the crystal ball "Moon Pearl," which controls / manipulates the power of the Triforce".
Not:

• "overpowers the Triforce"

Not:

• "negates the Triforce"

Not:

• "has equal output to the Triforce"

Not:

• "scales to the full Triforce"

It literally says the Moon Pearl controls / manipulates the power of the Triforce to prevent the transformation effect. That is not the same thing as beating the Triforce in a raw pissing contest.

Picture it, if you would, like having the keycard to a system.
Or turning a knob on a stove.
Or toggling an option in the magic itself.

It's using / redirecting / interfacing with the Triforce's own magic so Link isn't affected by that specific transformation effect.
There's a shit ton of extra yap explaining how the Moon Pearl works mechanically. But I'm not bothering to dig for a dozen scans when one line is enough.
So like it or not, the Moon Pearl isn't evidence that some random item "opposes an omnipotent hax thing" through raw power.

It's basically a conduit / interface for the exact magic being used.
By itself, the Moon Pearl isn't:

• some 3-A object (or ANY object, it's completely useless outside of its key function)
• not an anti-Triforce nuke
• not punching the Triforce in the teeth

It's just the item that lets Link avoid the Dark World transformation effect by making use of / manipulating the Triforce's own power.

Which would also be why your comparison to the Golden Sword is absurd.

• Moon Pearl:
  specific item that interfaces with Triforce itself to exempt Link from one effect
• Golden Sword:
  sacred weapon that stuns / opens Ganon up but still can never kill him without Silver Arrows

Neither one proves raw scaling to the full Triforce.

The Moon Pearl actually proves my point tbh, given it shows an item can interact with Triforce-derived magic without scaling in AP.
You already conceded this yourself when you said the Moon Pearl doesn't scale to the full Triforce in the first sentence of your post, so don't backpedal into trying to use it as an excuse to make the sword scale even though the sword has ZERO REASON to scale due to the Moon Pearl even if it were the case, and in fact has reasons not to scale albw.

You say:

• Moon Pearl can interact with Triforce magic without scaling

and yet:

• Golden Sword interacting with Ganon must scale

That's not consistency, it's not even an excuse, it's just special pleading with extra steps.

Except it does. Hyrule Historia: "The Moon Pearl: A jewel that repels magic. It protects the bearer from the evil power of the Demon King who controls the Dark World, and prevents any transformation to the bearer when they cross into the Dark World from the Light World." if the moon pearl can repel the magic (hax) of an omnipotent wish from the most powerful bla bla why cannot a sword scale to its ap because the triforce is omnipotent? The triforce is actually omnipotent for his wish property and yet, it can be repeled.

Except it don't. This is why context is always key.
You're taking the most misleading English wording possible and ignoring the actual mechanism, and I can only presume thinking that other people here are ignorant to the true context, given I know for a fact you know because we've had this exact talk before.

"Repels magic" does not mean "overpowers the Triforce".

The Japanese manual, again there ain't seeders atm for the other sauce, but one is enough for now... gives the mechanism (among other things). As above; the Moon Pearl isn't out here competing against the Golden Power (and while besides the point, if it were, it'd also be an outlier too, shit changes).

It's not saying:

• "Moon Pearl power > Triforce power"

It's not even saying:

• "Moon Pearl = Triforce power"

It's saying the Moon Pearl makes use of the Triforce's own power to prevent the transformation.
That completely guts any argument you might have had, as now the Moon Pearl isn't an example of some supposed inferior object overpowering the Triforce to begin with.

What it actually is, is but an example of a specialized item interfacing with the Triforce's own magic and tweaking who gets affected.

Not "the Moon Pearl beat the Triforce", mind you, but instead "the Moon Pearl can use the Triforce's power in a specific way".

That's even further from AP scaling than you had before.

It's basically the magic equivalent of logging into the system and changing a setting, shit be like turning off friendly fire on Halo 3.
To convey what I mean:

• you don't scale the mouse cursor to the entire computer because it clicked a toggle
• you don't scale a key to the whole building because it opened one door
• you don't scale a remote control to the entire TV station because it changed the channel.

The Moon Pearl lets Link avoid one specific effect of the Dark World / Triforce magic.
Note how this doesn't actually mean:

• the Moon Pearl scales to the Triforce
• Link scales to the Triforce
• the Golden Sword scales to the Triforce

Nor does it mean the Triforce is "not actually that strong", like are we even talking about the same franchise at this point? And your omnipotent is only the wish granting excuse? We'll get to that below.

This is even worse then, since the moon pearl can repel the same reality warping from the omnipotent all powerful artifact. So its power isn't this omnipotent. Hyperbole exists.

No, this isn't "even worse". You're not understanding how specific magical hax slop works.

The Moon Pearl is not disproving the Triforce's power.
It's using the Triforce's power to exempt Link from the Dark World transformation effect.
The literal opposite of "the Moon Pearl overpowered the Triforce".

And ignoring that, given I can only fear what other arguments you'd liable to bring up...

• Specific protection against one effect does not make the source weak.
• Specific counters exist.
• Resistances exist.
• Caveats exist.
• Exemptions exist.

Magic often have rules and an item preventing one transformation doesn't mean the Triforce's reality-warping power is hyperbole, it LITERALLY isn't, it's WHY you're so desperate to scale Link to it.

And what's actually "worse off", is that your argument once again self-sabotages itself.

If the Triforce's omnipotence is "just hyperbole" because the Moon Pearl can prevent one effect, then why the hell are you trying to scale Ganon and Link to it?

You keep on doing this dude:

• when the Triforce statements give Ganon a big number, they're literal, you want it, funny biggatons
• when the same Triforce being too strong makes Link scaling look asinine, oops suddenly "well hyperbole exists"

Genuinely, what are you doing? The most repeated lore outside of "Sword of Evil's Bane", is allegedly hyperbole? Despite the entire games built around it not being hyperbole? With actual feats backing up its hype as being matter of fact, even beyond what we were led to believe come EoW?

You literally can't use the Triforce as an omnipotent 3-A / higher power source for Ganon, then backpedal around and downplay it because the Moon Pearl, which is one of your own arguments, exacerbates the issue.

That's to say, the Moon Pearl doesn't weaken the Triforce argument.
It weakens YOUR method of scaling.

It outright shows interacting with Triforce magic does not equal raw AP scaling.

And don't even try the "uhm actually it's only omnipotent because wish-granting" dodge you did above, cut that out.

I already posted a whole ass wall of quotes, including ones that separate the ideas outright:
"ultimate power" AND "grants wishes"
"power without equal"
"supreme power"
"greatest power in this world"
"shape reality and fulfill any desire"

The wish-granting isn't some unrelated side meme slapped onto the Triforce.
The reason it grants wishes is because it's an all-powerful reality-warping artifact.
That is the power. Its magic is so absurdly powerful it can not just alter but even destroy the very fabric of reality.

And worse for you, again, the literal Ganon statement you need for the scaling to even exist is that he "consolidated the omnipotent power of the Triforce within himself."
Not:

• "he borrowed some unrelated power"

Not:

• "he got an infinitesimal buff compared to its full thing"

He consolidated its omnipotent power into himself.

So this whole arbitrary "it's only omnipotent as a wish-granting thing" distinction means literally nothing, and that's me wording this nicely.

If that wish/reality-warping power doesn't count as actual power, then Ganon doesn't scale that high either, because his cosmic scaling comes from the Triforce wish / Dark World / Golden Power context in the first place.
In such a situation, Link scaling? Nah dude, GANON would need to scale off Link.
Your arguments are incoherent with your own goals. You can't use the Triforce's wish-based reality warping to make Ganon cosmic lv, then act like wish-based reality warping isn't "real power" the attosecond Link scaling is unveiled as nonsensical.

This isn't an argument dude, you're cherry-picking the Triforce statements, or just ignoring them, to suit your end goal.

Spoiler: Blood Moon (skip if you read the last post)

Exactly, so why shouldn't calamity Ganon get the feat when the context makes it clear that he does it? The new context doesn't contradict this at all. It's somewhat still Ganondorf that is indirectly, with his manifestation of hatred doing it, causing a blood moon. You cannot cancel two entire games where calamity Ganon is causing it.

I ain't canceling two games? What I'm doing is actually taking the proper context and new information into account from all three games. Stop arguing with your own imaginary version of my point dude, my actual point is that TotK recontextualizes BotW.

Old context:

• Calamity Ganon was presented as Ganon.
  So the guide saying the Blood Moon comes from Calamity Ganon's power made sense.

New context:

• The real Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time.
  Calamity Ganon is an offshoot / manifestation / leak of that power, in actual fact the Blood Moon's were the sealed Ganon's power at peak points breaking free.

So now "Ganon's power" cycles back to the actual source: Ganondorf.

That doesn't "cancel" BotW of course, it doesn't even retcon it, all it does is explain BotW with newer information and actual clarification.

The Calamity might be the visible active manifestation, a type of Phantom perhaps, all without scaling to what's actually causing the Blood Moon.

Phantom Ganon is made from Ganondorf's power too, in fact he's made with arguably far more power than the Calamity Ganon. But that doesn't make Phantom Ganon equal to Ganondorf.

To paint a picture, a flame can come from a furnace, but that doesn't make the flame equal to the entire furnace system, or uh, a leak can come from a reservoir, but that doesn't make the leak equal to the whole reservoir?

Calamity Ganon being produced / sustained / heightened by Ganondorf's leaking power doesn't mean the Calamity scales to full Ganondorf output.

You keep confusing, or mayhaps even conflating "source" and "manifestation", yet the instant you don't and take it as actual fact, your whole point ceases to be.

He isn't in that sealed mummy form, the game explicitly states that when Ganondorf uses his power he has his dark king form.

This is just factually incorrect on multiple levels. You got to replay TotK man.

Ganondorf is causing Blood Moon long before the final Demon King / Dragon endgame, hell he's doing it while crusty and currently regenerating.

Blood Moons are happening throughout TotK while he's still the crusty sealed corpse under Hyrule Castle / Depths, not only when he's at maximum final boss gigafuck power.

This "he needs his Dark King form to use that power" dodge isn't going to work.

His higher Demon King form being stronger doesn't mean his weaker sealed / mummy state can't cause Blood Moons, he literally does, there's not a debate to be had here.

Demon King / Dragon Ganondorf being 5-A or whatnot doesn't erase the lower Blood Moon feat from weaker Ganondorf states.

If anything, this makes your argument even worse.

Because even under YOUR wishful framing, where Calamity Ganon somehow personally causes the Blood Moon, crusty Ganondorf would still obviously be capable of it.
Why?
Because crusty Ganondorf is still ridiculously above the Calamity dregs.

He wakes up and immediately breaks the Master Sword harder than I'm about to down this 25oz.

The same Master Sword that was literally built up as the anti-Calamity / anti-gloom counter and already murdered Calamity Ganon.

So what exactly is the argument here?
"Calamity Ganon can do Blood Moons, but the actual Ganondorf leaking the power that created Calamity Ganon can't unless he's in his strongest form"?
That's nonsense dude, if Calamity can do it, Ganondorf can do it.
If Ganondorf is the source of the Calamity, Ganondorf can do it.
If TotK shows Blood Moons happening from Ganondorf's power before the final maxed-out form, Ganondorf can do it.

Your argument fails in every way you can go about this.

The actual point remains:
TotK Ganondorf is the source.
Calamity Ganon is the manifestation / dregs / offshoot / whatever you want to call it.

A manifestation created by someone's leaking power doesn't inherently scale to the full source of that power.
Phantom Ganon isn't equal to Ganondorf just because he's made from Ganondorf's power.
Same thing.

The seal argument doesn't help, again.
His power leaking through the weakening seal is literally why the Calamity exists in the first place.

That's not a contradiction, it is QUITE LITERALLY the explanation.

You keep trying to frame "sealed mummy" as if it means "can't output anything", when the entire plot is that his power was leaking out despite the seal and that he could, in fact, do stuff. Just far more limited than if he weren't.
Essentially:

• Blood Moon from Ganondorf's leaking power? Yep.
• Calamity produced / sustained / heightened by that leaking power? You'd think.
• Calamity body scaling to the causation of the Blood Moons? No.

The feat belongs to the source (Unc Nando under the castle), not the drible leaking out of him.

Spoiler: Stones / hax / Agahnim cleanup (some repetition, not fully)

I actually agree with this, it's an hax, in fact I do think dragons should scale to 5-A while Ganon to 5-C.
It wasn't my implication, but I'll take responsibility if I spelled it out wrongly.

Then this part of your chain is just wrong?
If you agree malice corruption is hax and doesn't mean the dragons scale to Calamity / the source behind the malice, then that entire support is gone.

Why're you keeping the result after throwing away the alleged logic that was supposed to support it?
Dragons to 5-A still needs its own proof too, you haven't proven anything yet.

Not:

• "they were affected by malice"

Not:

• "they served Hylia"

Not:

• "they maybe had Secret Stones"

Not:

• "draconification is strong"

Actual proof.

Because as it is right now, what you have is:

• maybe they had stones
• maybe the stones work like a fixed multiplier
• maybe draconification gives a specific tier
• maybe their base was high enough
• maybe they compare to other stone users
• maybe this doesn't become circular as hell because Link scales to them to a degree so it ends up with a Link who is utterly incomparable to 5-A Ganon and is in fact many, many one shots below him, scaling above the versions of himself that got obliterated, despite being weaker than them???

That's just conjecture and extrapolation atop a pile of maybes wearing a trench coat.

This is what the argument has become.

Just like the Aganhim statement, I am currently bringing it for those like glass who are opposed to the idea of Ganon having triforce after the sealing war. Not claiming Aganhim is being boosted by it, even though I do think it's still the case even though I am not right now using that statement for that, the manual says it.

Then why are you still bringing it up in an AP argument? If you're only using Agahnim to prove Ganon's squad had the Golden Power, that'd be fine, a bit irrelevant, but still fine. But that does nothing for your Link AP scaling?

And this:

• "I'm not using it that way right now, even though I still think it"

comes off as just trying to keep the implication alive without needing to defend or prove it.

Not "right now", you got to prove it or drop it.
If you want Agahnim or random demons boosted by the full Golden slop, post the exact Japanese line and argue that directly.

The raw Agahnim line you already used is factional possession.
"Our demon side has the Golden Power" more or less.
Not:

• "I, Agahnim, personally scale to the full Triforce"

Not:

• "every demon now gets full-Triforce stats"

Not:

• "Link beating Agahnim means Link scales to the full Triforce"

The ending you already posted uses the same kind of possession wording when the Golden Power is in Link's hands too. But that doesn't mean Link's basic punches are suddenly full-Triforce AP.

It means he possesses it as a object, not what Ganon did and effectively harnessed its full power.

So unless you have a separate explicit manual statement saying Agahnim personally got a full-Triforce-tier buff, this line still doesn't prove what you need it to. And this is just outing yourself dude.

You've backpedaled into arguing that "maybe Ganon DIDN'T have the full power...", but yet you think in a situation every fodder was getting amped (which isn't true but let's ignore that for argument's sake), that they would be amped to such a relevant degree to support Link scaling to a notable fraction of it?
No dude, you'd need to then prove how MUCH they're amped by as otherwise we wouldn't assume anything, it could be drastic or so pathetically minor it's completely manageable (which it was...)

Ganon only gets away with full scaling because of a multitude of context and statements saying he was going to take its full power as his own, and then did so. Without those, we wouldn't be assuming he scales either.

The stones being a multiplier is confirmed in the totk guide masterworks, actually, but fine.

Post the exact quote.

"Amplifies power" isn't the same as "this is a universal numeral multiplier that applies equally to every dude who got one"
Two entirely different statements.

If Master Works says:

• "Secret Stones multiply power by exactly [number]"

then sure, post it.

But if it says they amplify, magnify, increase, enhance, draw out, or boost power that was already there, then no, that still doesn't let you calc some random jump from one character and slap that ratio onto unrelated dragons.

Secret Stones amplify the user's existing power.
That means the result depends on the user.

Ganondorf with a stone is absurd because Ganondorf was already absurd.
The sages with stones don't automatically equal him (in fact they blatant don't).

A dragon with a stone, assuming they used one, depends on that dragon's own base level.

Unless it gives an actual fixed multiplier it's still calc-stacking headcanon.

Spoiler: Demise/Dreg scaling (mostly repetition)

The counter argument for Ganon is weak. It's actually easy. Ganon is the product of Ganondorf's malice and hatred. Ganon causes blood moons, this means Ganondorf indirectly does it, but why shouldn't Ganon the product of Ganondorf power somewhat scale to mummy Ganondorf and get that 5-C rating? Ganondorf it's his source of power, and the guides link Ganon to blood moons, so it's all linked.

Calling it a counter argument is generous, I'm not arguing this, I'm stating it.

As before, the same mistake again.

• "Product of"
• "source of"
• "linked to"
• "indirectly"
• "somewhat"

None of these words prove AP scaling.

A product of power does not automatically scale to the full source.
A manifestation does not automatically scale to the origin.
A thing being linked to a feat does not mean it gets the full rating.
A guide written under BotW-only context does not override TotK recontextualizing the feat.
You keep using vague slightly connective words because you still don't have the actual evidence you need.

Calamity Ganon being produced by Ganondorf's power means Ganondorf is the source.
It doesn't mean the Calamity scales to full Ganondorf output, or any output for that matter, it scales to what it's shown to and nothing but.

Like above:
A flame comes from a furnace.
A leak comes from a reservoir.
Phantom Ganon comes from Ganondorf's power.
That still don't mean Phantom Ganon equals Ganondorf, we know he doesn't, and it's even stronger than the Calamity.

It's nothing but [REDACTED] from Ganondorf.

The feat belongs to the source unless you can prove the manifestation itself outputs the full thing under its own power.
You haven't.

Since Mummy Ganondorf isn't actively using the stone and it's being sealed, it's more than clear that the product of his own hatred should scale below demise lore wise.

No, it isn't "more than clear".

It's not just wrong, it's uh, double wrong.

First things first, the "sealed mummy" point doesn't mean anything as that's his power leaking through the seal.
That's literally why the Calamity exists. This has been stated 5 times now.

You keep saying "but he's sealed" like that hurts my argument?
It doesn't.
It is my argument.

The seal was weakening. His power leaked out. That power produced / sustained Calamity.
That makes Ganondorf the source.
It doesn't make the Calamity equal to the source.

Second, this "mummy Ganondorf isn't actively using the stone" point is just false, you're trying to dodge the problem but it ain't gonna work.

TotK has Blood Moons happening while Ganondorf is still in his crusty sealed state. He is pissing out Blood Moons and gloom well before the final roided-out Demon King / dragon stuff.

His later Demon King form being stronger doesn't mean his weaker sealed corpse state can't do Blood Moon stuff. That's not how this works.

And even under YOUR own framing, it still fails as outlined above.
If you want to argue Calamity Ganon can cause Blood Moons, then actual Ganondorf, the source of that Calamity, obviously can too. Crusty Ganondorf is still massively above the Calamity dregs. He wakes up and immediately ***** the Master Sword. The same Master Sword that handled Calamity Ganon.

"Calamity can do Blood Moons, but the actual Ganondorf leaking the power that created Calamity can't unless he's in his strongest form"?, is that your point?
No dude:

• If Calamity can do it, Ganondorf can do it.
• If Ganondorf is the source of Calamity, Ganondorf can do it.
• If TotK shows Blood Moon shit from Ganondorf's power before his final form, Ganondorf can do it.

Every iteration of this conversation implicates you're wrong.

And Demise still doesn't get to scale, ignoring how Ganon actually was using the secret stone, after all, where do you think the Gloom powers come from?

"Product of Ganondorf's hatred" and "below Demise" aren't mutual lad. BotW/TotK Ganondorf isn't just some Demise-hatred expy.

He's a specific Ganondorf after absurd time, sealed under Hyrule Castle, leaking power, with Secret Stone context that, despite your claims, is still amping him.

If you want Demise above that specific output of his, you must prove Demise scales above that specific output.

And thinking on it, why would Demise scale regardless? He placed a curse that reincarnates, there's no reason to actually scale the curse to Demise himself.
By that logic Ganondorf pops out the womb at Demise strength too because "well it's the same curse", obviously not true. He's still his own person and can gather power and get stronger under his own merit. TotK especially is doing stuff to boost himself, classic did too (not ToP) with training, twili magic, and more.
That's not actual scaling.

You're still doing the exact thing I called out before:

• malice = AP
• source = AP
• product = AP
• linked = AP
• possession = AP
• hax = AP
• wish = not AP when problematic but also AP for there to even be a 3-A/2-C to begin with

None of that is consistent. You're trying to push every trivially connected term into the same big-number yap and praying it sticks.

TLDR:
This whole reply is just the same thing over and over again, we're already in repetition so most replies from here on, if it continues, is likely just going to be circling around:

• "[thing] is connected to the Triforce / Ganon / malice / a sacred item / a prophecy / a source of power"

thus

• "[thing] scales in raw AP"

Not how this works.

You still have yet to prove any of the actual step that matters:

• Link's raw AP scales to full-Triforce Ganon.

You just keep restating it with different wording.

• Same tier but lower? Doesn't matter unless Link actually scales through AP first.
• Golden Sword > base Master Sword? Aight, depending on context. Golden Sword reaching full-Triforce Ganon? Not proven.
• Light Arrow chain? Either it has its own AP context, or it should be checked too. It doesn't validate Golden Sword hax being treated like full-Triforce AP either way.
• ALBW? Still cooks the argument. Golden/Lv3 Master Sword + ToC + Light Arrows is still fighting a two-piece Yuganon, and ToC (an infinitesimal fraction of the full-Triforce) is treated as a bigger deal than the Golden Sword with the hype statement.
• OoT Link losing in Downfall? Doesn't prove ALttP Link raw outstats him or vice versa even, there's a complete disconnect between their scaling. ALttP Link had Silver Arrows, Moon Pearl/resistance tools, and a specific wincon OoT Link lacked.
• Prophecy? Means a Hero appears and opposes Ganon. It doesn't say "Hero AP = full Triforce".
• Agahnim / Golden Power wording? Possessive wording. Faction has the Golden Power. Ganon has it. That doesn't mean Agahnim, every demon, or Link's basic stats scale to the full thing, or even a fraction.
• Moon Pearl? You basically ignored the actual "how" it does what it does. It isn't overpowering, nullifying, or outscaling the Triforce. It's a conduit for one specific effect. That actively proves hax interaction =/= AP scaling.
• "Triforce is only omnipotent because wish-granting"? Already answered above. I posted a pile of quotes separating "ultimate power" and "grants wishes", plus wording like "without equal" (shoots down most of your points), "supreme power", "greatest power", and "shape reality and fulfill any desire". The wish-granting works because the Triforce is an all-powerful reality-warping artifact. If that power doesn't count, then Ganon's cosmic slop goes bye-bye butterfree too (Note; I obviously disagree with that notion, I'm just pointing out the incoherency to this).
• Calamity Ganon? TotK recontextualizes BotW. Calamity is the manifestation / leakage / dregs. Ganondorf is the source. A leak doesn't scale to the whole reservoir. See Dust's reply that just refreshed.
• Mummy Ganondorf? Also wrong. TotK has Blood Moon / gloom nonsense happening while he's still crusty and decrepit, on top of what Dust posted. His final form being stronger doesn't mean his sealed state can't do Blood Moon shit. He literally does.
• Dragons? You conceded malice corruption is hax, so that support is just gone now. Dragons to 5-A still needs actual proof, not "maybe stones, maybe draconification, maybe base level, maybe multiplier, maybe etc.".
• Secret Stones? Post an actual stated multiplier or drop it. "Amplifies power" isn't a universal multiplier you can calc from one character and slap onto unrelated dragons. Literally not allowed.
• Demise? Doesn't scale for free because "hatred lol". Ganondorf is his own later dude with his own power gains, Secret Stone context, sealing/leakage context, and Calamity context. A curse/reincarnation isn't inherently AP scaling, context matters.

Also, noting this now: a few supports have basically been conceded.

• You conceded Moon Pearl doesn't scale to the full Triforce.
• You conceded malice corruption is hax, not AP scaling.
• You backpedaled Agahnim into "only proving Ganon had the Triforce".
• You still haven't posted the alleged Secret Stone fixed multiplier quote.
• You still haven't proven the Golden Sword kills Ganon or scales to his full output.

So half your OP is still waiting on actual evidence, you got to post scans and proof regardless given we have to actually index and cite stuff whether or not it gets accepted.

And honestly, the biggest issue is that you ignored a huge amount of what I said:

• You ignored the actual burden of proof: "Link won" is not the same as "Link scales through raw AP".
• You ignored that "same tier but lower" only matters after AP scaling is proven in the first place.
• You ignored that Ganon's rating comes from the Triforce / Dark World / Golden Power / wish-reality-warping context, not from Link punching a number out of him.
• You ignored that the fight is not won through raw damage.
• You ignored that the Golden Sword does not kill Ganon.
• You ignored that Silver Arrows are the actual kill condition.
• You ignored that Ganon is not normally killable.
• You ignored that the normal Master Sword can already interact with Ganon through the spin attack.
• You ignored that ALBW directly cooks the Golden Sword argument: Golden/Lv3 Master Sword + ToC + Light Arrows still fights a two-piece Yuganon.
• You ignored that ALBW frames ToC as a bigger deal than the Golden Sword by itself (HUGE problem)..
• You ignored that ALBW being a direct successor with the actual statement you're trying to exploit makes your Golden Sword point worse, not better.
• You ignored that "Golden Sword > default/base Master Sword" is not the same claim as "Golden Sword reaches full-Triforce Ganon".
• You ignored that "the sword can store sacred energy" doesn't mean "this specific Golden Sword closes the gap to the complete Triforce".
• You ignored the TotK Master Sword problem, where the one sword with the actual Triforce-adjacent energy context is TotK's, not the random Great Fairy upgrade.
• You ignored the Moon Pearl's actual Japanese manual wording (which I told you last thread...)
• You ignored that the Moon Pearl is a conduit for the power of the Triforce, not overpowers, negates, or outscales it.
• You ignored the entire Triforce quote dump.
• You ignored that the quotes distinguish "ultimate power" and "grants wishes" as both being true.
• You ignored "power without equal", "supreme power", "greatest power", and "shape reality and fulfill any desire".
• You ignored that the wish-granting isn't unrelated; it works because the Triforce is an all-powerful reality-warping artifact.
• You ignored that if wish/reality-warping power "doesn't count", then Ganon's own rating dies fails (don't agree with this notion, just saying).
• You ignored Hyrule Historia saying Ganon consolidated the omnipotent power of the Triforce within himself (so this shouldn't even be a distinction).
• You ignored that this makes your "only wish-granting" distinction useless for the exact statement you're relying on.
• You ignored artifact durability vs artifact output.
• You ignored that Lorule destroying their Triforce doesn't mean anyone there scales to the Triforce's full power.
• You ignored that Lorule could not replace or sustain the cosmic role of its Triforce afterward.
• You ignored that Lorule needing another Triforce to restore theirs proves the opposite of what you want.
• You ignored that "Golden Power is in your hands" is possessive wording, not base-stat scaling.
• You ignored that even if random demons were amped, you'd still need to prove how much, not just assume relevant scaling.
• You ignored that OoT Link didn't just universally fail; Downfall is one branch, and he wins in others.
• You ignored that ALttP Link had Silver Arrows, while OoT Link did not.
• You ignored that Light Arrows and Silver Arrows are not the same thing.
• You ignored TotK recontextualizing BotW.
• You ignored that "Calamity Ganon did it" under BotW context changed once TotK revealed the real Ganondorf was sealed underneath the entire time.
• You ignored source vs manifestation stuff.
• You ignored that Calamity being produced / sustained / heightened by Ganondorf's leaking power don't mean the Calamity body scales to any fraction of Ganondorf output inherently.
• You ignored that TotK has Blood Moon / gloom nonsense happening while Ganondorf is still in his crusty sealed state.
• You ignored that "sealed" isn't a counterargument when the whole point is that his power is leaking through that very seal.
• You ignored that malice corruption being hax kills that support for dragon scaling though you conceded it isn't AP.
• You ignored that dragons to 5-A still need actual proof after that support is gone.
• You ignored that "served Hylia" isn't a tier.
• You ignored that "maybe they had Secret Stones" isn't proof.
• You ignored that draconification isn't a fixed number.
• You ignored that Secret Stones amplifying power isn't the same as a universal multiplier.
• You ignored that a fixed multiplier needs an actual statement (as in the number itself).
• You ignored that different Secret Stone users have different bases, so the result depends on the user.
• You ignored that applying one user's calc jump to unrelated characters is calc-stacking.
• You ignored that your dragon chain risks circular scaling into infinity.
• You ignored that "product of", "linked to", "source of", "indirectly", and "somewhat" aren't scaling.
• You ignored that Demise doesn't scale for free just because "hatred".
• You ignored that Ganondorf is his own later dude with his own power growth, training / magic / Secret Stone / sealing-leakage context.

And honestly more. You're not even engaging with the actual objections and just running the same points without rebuking, or even just conceding some of the problems:

• hax = AP
• possession = AP
• source = AP
• manifestation = AP
• prophecy = AP
• wish = not AP when inconvenient, but AP when needed for Ganon
• artifact interaction = AP
• malice corruption = AP
• Secret Stone boost = universal multiplier

You just keep saying that yet none of that is consistent.
It's just every vaguely connected term being thrown together whether or not they're even true. And if you aren't replying because you concede to points, say so that way we all know what to move on from. Like it just comes off as dodging or ignoring, you gotta say "aight that's fine" so people know.

And don't just reply to the TLDR while ignoring the spoilers above like before. The TLDR is a summary, not a replacement for the actual arguments. If you skip the actual nuanced or detailed points, again, gotta be calling that stonewalling, either way.

My stance is still unchanged:
Golden Sword > default/base Master Sword? Cool.
Golden Sword > every special Master Sword with its own context? Need a bit more.
Link > full-Triforce Ganon in raw AP? By Allah.
Moon Pearl / Silver Arrows / sacred tools / prophecy / Agahnim wording / Lorule / Calamity / Secret Stones
do not change that.

If you want this accepted, you really need to stop repeating "Link won" and actually prove the win was raw AP without resorting to conjecture.

Basically everyone disagrees with me for very different reasons, while a lot of users don't actually have an opinion and wait for others, while some other address just one side.
The ones who addressed more things are Chariot and dust, who pretty much disagree with everything but I recognize that at least they gave their input to it and addressed it all.

Plus, I found that in encyclopedia the developers wrote literally the word hurt when you fight Ganon, so u indeed hurt him not just stun, still the outlier argument bla bla IK.

That seems to be a lil mix-up here.

The official Zelda Encyclopedia doesn't seem to use the word "hurt" (post it if it does though), like at all; I could be wrong but doing a CTRL+F on IA has no "hurt" match for the entire book, and the ALttP summary only says Link defeated/vanquished Ganon after a fierce battle.

Honestly, digging all I actually found is from Zelda Wiki's for Ganon, given that page says "From Zelda Wiki, the Zelda encyclopedia" (so maybe you confused that for the actual Encyclopedia?), and then says "hurt Ganon" in the ALttP gameplay strategy section. But obviously, that's not the official Zelda Encyclopedia book or an official website though, even the old website just says that Ganon was banished to the Dark World, broke free multiple times, and "Link and the Seven Sages were able to repel his advances each time". It does not say "hurt". And while I was there, Golden Sword entry only says it's a magical blade made by a benevolent fairy in the Mysterious Pond, and the Master Sword entry says it has magical power aligned with valor/kindness and can only be held by a pure soul. Again, not "hurt Ganon". The ALttP game page itself says Agahnim frees Ganon, then Link frees the descendants of the Seven Sages and strengthens the magical seals. No hurt wording there either though.

In fact:
First, strike Ganon with the Golden Sword. When Ganon becomes invisible, light the two braziers with the Fire Rod or Lamp to see him. When Ganon is visible, strike him with the Golden Sword to stun him. While he's stunned, hit him with the Silver Arrows. To defeat Ganon, Link must strike him 20 times with the Golden Sword and a minimum of four times with the Silver Arrows. When Ganon is defeated, Link is free to get The Triforce and win the game!
The old Zelda Encyclopedia legit only says the Golden Sword stuns, not hurts, you need to hit 4 times with the Arrows to actually hurt/kill/whatever.

And idk just for completion's sake, for ALttP itself too. The Cursed Fairy tells Link outright he definitely needs the Silver Arrows to give Ganon his "last moment", and Sahasrahla says that when Ganon is stunned, Link has to give him his last moment with a Silver Arrow. As in it stuns, for actually killing/finishing him, the Golden Sword alone is explicitly incapable. It can stun him. You need the funny soul hax arrow for real damage.
For Historia, it says the only way to stop Ganon was to defeat him and take back the Triforce honestly that's better for him having it at least, then for the final fight it says Link evaded Ganon's dark power whatever tf that means, guess it confirms Link skill checked that shit and succeeded in destroying him.
And while I'm not gonna push for the old Player's Guide given how sus af it is, but just for completion's sake, even that guide says the sword part is stunning/freezing Ganon, says Link can't defeat Ganon without the Silver Arrows, and says that stunned state is the only time he is actually vulnerable.

Like every official source I can find, legit to sus, simply says stun or hax-like wording with the Golden Sword on Ganon.
Anyway the Zelda wiki isn't developer text. It's just a fan wiki strategy explaining the boss mechanics.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

The Ganon battle, the white page used with developers note says the word damaged.

simply says stun

Here you go one that says damaged.

I'll reply to the rest when I got more time.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Calamity can do Blood Moons, but the actual Ganondorf leaking the power that created Calamity can't unless he's in his strongest form"?, is that your point?
No dude:

It isn't what I said, you spelled this out for me BTW. When did I say mummy Ganondorf cannot cause blood moons? He does, I justs say that he is that powerful that he causes them without the power of the stone that makes the feat more impressive at 5-A which ofc demise wouldn't scale to. Ganondorf literally does it in the mummy state through the game, why do you put words in my mouth which I never stated, lol. And Ik he is super way more powerful than calamity Ganon since he destroys the sword, but keep in mind the sword couldn't damage last form of calamity Ganon, it isn't that absurd that calamity Ganon can scale a lower value of 5-C since he causes the blood moons as well. What I am saying is, since calamity is the product of Ganondorf, words wise it isn't wrong to say that Ganondorf is causing blood moons, because he is somehow doing it with calamity Ganon, while he does it himself in totk as mummy and as dark lord with better feat.

 

[Chariot190]

Spoiler: concept art...

The Ganon battle, the white page used with developers note says the word damaged.

Ok so literally not what you said.
Stop paraphrasing if people need to fact check.

Here you go one that says damaged.

I'll reply to the rest when I got more time.

Ain't no way you're trying to use a gameplay concept / development sheet from before the game was even finished as hard lore over the actual finished-game context.

Like, genuinely man, what are you doing here?

Concept sheets for how a boss fight functions mechanically are not the same thing as finalized lore statements about what is actually happening in-universe.

And don't you find it a little funny how basically every actual finished/finalized source describing the Ganon fight and ho the Golden Sword works does it as:

• stun
• make vulnerable
• Silver Arrows as the actual means to harm
• Ganon being impossible to defeat without said hax
• sword blows not finishing him no matter how many times he gets hit

And direct statements saying all this too? Outright incapable of defeating?

Yet the one thing you're clinging to is development/concept wording using generic "damage" wording for boss mechanics?

Your source weighting is insane. The finished game and later material all say the same thing:

• Golden Sword / Master Sword interaction opens him up and simply makes him vulnerable to the actual method
• Silver Arrows are what actually kill / destroy him.
• He is impossible to defeat otherwise

If an old gameplay concept sheet says "damage" in the loose mechanical sense of "this action progresses the boss state", how does that override every finalized statement, context and lore mechanic telling us the sword itself ain't shit and the actual lore and in-universe context around the interaction?

You're taking the least lore-relevant wording possible from the least relevant source imaginable and trying to use it to somehow overcome the more explicit, more finalized, more consistent material.

That's insane dude, a mid-development boss-function note doesn't mean more comapred to:

• the actual game's win condition
• the finalized item role
• the repeated Silver Arrow necessity
• the fact Ganon can't be killed by sword hits alone
• later descriptions framing the sword part as stun / opening / vulnerability
• the broader lore that makes full-Triforce raw AP scaling absurd anyway
• the same sword but arguably stronger being weaker than even a single piece per your own more recent scans

Literally all this does, is tells us how the devs were thinking about the boss phase mechanically:

• hit Ganon > he go ping > initiate next sequence > use Silver Arrows

Not:

• Golden Sword raw AP = full Triforce
• Link can physically overpower Ganon's full output
• Silver Arrows aren't the real kill condition
• or that every later source describing it as stun / hax / vulnerability should be ignored

You're not weighing sources by relevance or finality. You're just taking whatever wording gets closest to the big number, even if it's developmental, mechanical, and worse than the actual finalized context.

Which is to say, if multiple finalized sources say "this doesn't kill him normally, you need the specific hax", and your rebuttal is "but this old concept sheet used a damage word", then no man, we may as well just call it quits here if that's the best proof you got. It just proves your argument needs to avoid the actual lore to have merit.

Spoiler: Blood Moon also fact check first

It isn't what I said, you spelled this out for me BTW. When did I say mummy Ganondorf cannot cause blood moons? He does, I justs say that he is that powerful that he causes them without the power of the stone that makes the feat more impressive at 5-A which ofc demise wouldn't scale to. Ganondorf literally does it in the mummy state through the game, why do you put words in my mouth which I never stated, lol. And Ik he is super way more powerful than calamity Ganon since he destroys the sword, but keep in mind the sword couldn't damage last form of calamity Ganon, it isn't that absurd that calamity Ganon can scale a lower value of 5-C since he causes the blood moons as well. What I am saying is, since calamity is the product of Ganondorf, words wise it isn't wrong to say that Ganondorf is causing blood moons, because he is somehow doing it with calamity Ganon, while he does it himself in totk as mummy and as dark lord with better feat.

You literally said, and I quote:

• "He isn't in that sealed mummy form, the game explicitly states that when Ganondorf uses his power he has his dark king form".

That was the line being responded to. Don't pull the "when did I say that?" thing now, like come on now, I can read ya know?

Now, if your point was simply:

• "mummy Ganondorf can cause Blood Moons too, just weaker than his Dark King / higher forms"

then cool, glad you backpedaled, given that's literally what I said.
Mummy Ganondorf can do Blood Moon shit.

• TotK shows that.
• His stronger forms being above that does not erase the weaker-state Blood Moon feat.

But that still doesn't help Calamity Ganon scale to it.

Let's be very clear here:

• "Can Ganondorf do Blood Moons?"

Obviously yes, we see it constantly.
The issue is:

• "Does Calamity Ganon, the manifestation / dregs / offshoot, scale to the full output of the source or is the direct cause of said Blood Moons while Ganondorf is locked away?"

He doesn't.

You keep dodging this, it's not even subtle, you keep trying to assert:

• "Ganondorf is causing it through Calamity"

First off, no he isn't, TotK, IW and Master Works 2 is very explicit how he's doing it. They also never go "The Calamity itself is manually causing the Blood Moon under its own power". They, in fact, state the opposite, that it's Ganondorf whom is causing them.
Hilariously even, they even add a lil line saying him doing it is when the height of his own leakage and whatnot, which ties back into how it appeared that it was when Calamity Ganon was its height, but no, it was just Ganondorf, the Blood Moon caused by him just happened to have the side effect of amping the dregs temporarily too.

That doesn't mean Calamity gets the rating unfortunate as it may be.
A source causing something while a manifestation exists doesn't make the manifestation equal to the source.
This is once again the exact same source/manifestation distinction you keep trying to conflate, or worse, ignore.

If Ganondorf causes Blood Moons through his own power, that being leaked malice / Calamity / whatever phrasing you want, then the feat belongs to Ganondorf as the source unless you prove the Calamity itself outputs that power under its own stats.
You have not done that.

You're just saying:

• "Calamity is linked to it"
• "Calamity is the product"
• "Ganondorf is somehow doing it with Calamity"
• "so Calamity somewhat scales"

No. None of that is even true.
That's not scaling, you just have a end goal in mind so you're trying to create a chain to get there whether or not any of the steps leading up to it are even true.

And the sword point?

• "Keep in mind the sword couldn't damage last form of Calamity Ganon"

You mean the sword we treat as 7-B at that point in time given it was mangled and then simply suckled off Deku Juice for 100y? That incarnation is abysmal. Beast Ganon could be a literally million times stronger than it, and still be weaker than most of the other incarnations.
Only saving grace is the raw has a oddly useful line for upscaling but you're most certainly not referring to that so it's besides the point.
This is another hax / wincon thing being treated like AP again, stop doing that.

Dark Beast / final-form Calamity being handled through specific weak points / Bow of Light / divine counter stuff does not mean Calamity scales to mummy Ganondorf. He's still way, way, weaker.
And him being stronger than the Master Sword doesn't justify scaling him to the Blood Moon as he can still be stronger than that iteration of the sword, and still be far inferior to the Blood Moons as he isn't the reason they happen.

Especially when TotK Ganondorf wakes up and folds the Master Sword itself with gloom anyway way better than what even that form could do. That tells us Ganondorf is blatantly above the Calamity even at its greatest, not that Calamity gets to suck off Ganondorf's Blood Moon rating.

Oh, and also:


You're wrong.
The Master Sword can in fact hurt Beast Ganon.
Awful video quality aside, you just have to use the sword beams, but the Master Sword even in its exponentially inferior iteration, it can still hurt Botw Beast Ganon in place of the Bow of Light, moreso a matter of range being required, not potency here.

Let's make this very simple lad.
If your current position is:

• Mummy Ganondorf causes Blood Moons.
• Dark King / stronger Ganondorf has higher stuff.
• Calamity is a manifestation / product / dregs from Ganondorf's power.

Then we agree on the first two, and the third still doesn't give Calamity AP scaling to the feat.
Because:

• source = Ganondorf
• manifestation = Calamity
• feat source = Ganondorf's power
• rating = Ganondorf, unless Calamity itself is proven to output the feat after everything was clarified post TotK.

You keep trying push "Ganondorf is causing it through Calamity" (not actually true, you're extrapolating that), as "Calamity scales to it".

Being real right now, your new wording makes my point even better.

• Ganondorf is the one causing it.
• Calamity is the thing being used / produced / expressed.

The feat belongs to the source, that's Ganondorf, not to the sludge puppet or any of Ganondorf's offshoots that exist at the same time (so whether it's a Gold Lynel, Demonkin, the Blights, etc. They aren't the cause).

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Blood Moons as he isn't the reason they happen.

Except creating a champion literally state he is. Totk confirming Ganondorf is the cause in Totk doesn't retcon that calamity Ganon was the cause in botw. That's what I am saying.

That was the line being responded to. Don't pull the "when did I say that?" thing now, like come on now, I can read ya know

My line refers to Mummy Ganondorf using the secret stone power, not causing the blood Moons which of course he does, we literally see it. I never doubted this.

Plus, of course mummy Ganondorf scales way above Calamity Ganon, my argument isn't that calamity Ganon should scale close to him because it is the manifestation of his power. What I am saying is that an official source gives credit to calamity Ganon for blood Moons in botw, and master works saying that they are caused by Ganondorf its not a contradiction, because calamity Ganon is the source of that feat, being the product of his hatred, it kinda makes indirectly Ganondorf being the one causing it in a certain sense. That's what I am saying, not that Ganon being a product of Ganondorf somehow makes Ganon scalable to him. It Ganon never had the blood moon feat itself, I'd agree with current ratings.

Samething with aganhim, even if he is powered up by Triforce as I think, I never stated that he is being empowered by the full Triforce in his fullest. But, since the full Triforce is so much above the single pieces, I'd expect aganhim scaling at least to a single piece if the full Triforce is granting him some power.

Which is to say, if multiple finalized sources say "this doesn't kill him normally, you need the specific hax"

But this isn't a matter of AP damaging the durability of Ganon, which is what I am proving, this is a better of finishing off an immortal being which power could be this powerful to not make it able to finish it off thanks to his immortality. Would u say the sage sword doesn't harm Ganondorf because it cannot finish him off? Because it failed to do so? This doesn't prove that the Golden Master Sword cannot harm Ganon. You are also ignoring how official sources make it canon that you gain the golden master sword, and for which purpose if you think that all it does is stunning Ganondorf thanks to the same power that normal Master Sword has? What's the point of golden master sword edge being hyped as sharper? Look, gain this sharper sword, in order to not pierce Ganon. You cannot even claim it is essential to stun him, because in terms of anti evil property the Golden Master Sword isn't more holier than the master sword, the game description hypes the fact that it is sharper.
Occam's razor suggest that if the game describes as canonical and a narrative passage gaining a sharper sword to fight Ganon, not holier, there must be a reason. But it all goes to silver arrows being necessary? So? The sage sword cannot finish off Ganondorf, but it can definitely harm him.

Also re-reading your reply above, which I still need some time to reply properly to, when did I say light arrows and silver arrows are the same?? I just think it's essentially wrong to give the credit of alttp link only to silver arrows, because even though they are essential as a finisher blow, that doesn't mean the golden master sword is useless. Also, if you believe that stunning doesn't mean scaling, why do we currently have Ganondorf scaling to twinmold because they both can be stunned by light arrows? That's a major inconsistency, you basically scale light arrows to small planet level because they can stun Ganondorf, but Ganondorf small planet level because he can tank arrows just being stunned by them, but twinmold having small planet level durability gives the arrows small planet level AP when they could in fact harm him because it's an evil being with a weakness to holy things who never showed any resistence to such abilities and when they mostly stun him?

 

[Chariot190]

Spoiler: Blood Moon shit again

Except creating a champion literally state he is. Totk confirming Ganondorf is the cause in Totk doesn't retcon that calamity Ganon was the cause in botw. That's what I am saying.

This is such a lost cause why am I replying again...
This still doesn't fix anything dude, what are you not getting?
You're acting as if "Creating a Champion says Calamity Ganon causes it" statement exists in a vacuum and can't be recontextualized by later information.

That's not how this, or any, franchise works. Man, your PFP is Type-Moon, the Holy Grail of later reveals recontextualizing old context. You know damn well this is a thing.

BotW context:

• Calamity Ganon is treated as Ganon.

So yeah, the Blood Moon being from "Calamity Ganon's power" made sense.
TotK context:

• The actual Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time.
  Calamity Ganon is a manifestation / offshoot / leakage of that power, and it's actually the sealed incarnation performing the feat.

The old statement doesn't get deleted, it gets explained.
This is also a source issue too.

• Finished sequel + finished tie-in to that sequel + newer direct lore context + new guide > older guide written before the reveal even existed.

So no, you can't freeze the old guide wording in place after the series itself explained what was actually going on behind it.
"Calamity Ganon causes it" in BotW context isn't current context.

But TotK tells us what the Calamity actually is and where it, and everything else, is coming from.

The source is Ganondorf.
The manifestation is Calamity.

You keep saying "it doesn't contradict", but then you're trying to make it contradict anyway by treating Calamity as the actual independent source of the feat instead of the product / outlet of Ganondorf's power.

If Calamity is the product of Ganondorf's malice, then Ganondorf is the source.
If Ganondorf is the source and the cause of the Blood Moons, then the feat doesn't automatically become Calamity's AP.

Like you know what also that book says?

• "Calamity Ganon’s powerful evil had a variety of effects on monsters, resurrecting previously killed monsters during the Blood Moon and causing fearsome silver monsters to appear".
• "Ganon’s Malice grants these monsters new life under the red glow of the Blood Moon".

And you know what TotK and the new book explicitly says wasn't actually the case and was, in fact, the sealed Ganondorf beneath the castle's power leaking out?
Hell you know the book also says Calamity Ganon is the AlttP and whatnot Ganon too right?
As in, if you're trying to take Creating a Champion's BotW-era context as unchangeable, you also need to take the outdated identity framing that TotK made impossible. You can't keep the Blood Moon attribution in a vacuum from 2017 while dropping the rest of the very same outdated context.
You don't seem to understand THINGS CHANGE.

My line refers to Mummy Ganondorf using the secret stone power, not causing the blood Moons which of course he does, we literally see it. I never doubted this.

Then the line was worded beyond poorly, because you said:

• "He isn't in that sealed mummy form, the game explicitly states that when Ganondorf uses his power he has his dark king form."

That was said in response to the sealed mummy / Blood Moon source point.
I responded to it like it was about the thing actually being discussed.

If you're backpedaling to:

• "mummy Ganondorf can cause Blood Moons, but his higher forms / Secret Stone state are stronger"

Well yeah damn, I agree.
Mummy Ganondorf can cause Blood Moons.
His stronger forms are stronger.

That still doesn't help Calamity Ganon.

Also this "mummy Ganondorf wasn't using the Secret Stone power" backpedal is honestly just confusing?
That's literally the point of his power set.

The Blood Moon / gloom / monster revival nonsense is coming from Ganondorf's power leaking out while he's sealed. And the very reason he even HAS those powers is
BECAUSE HE HAS THE SECRET STONE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Without that Stone there would be no Calamity, no Blood Moon, not even basic monsters.

Being sealed doesn't mean "base, no stone amp, totally unrelated to his Demon King power".
It means his power is being restrained, leaking out, and still causing shit anyway.

If the stone amp magically "wasn't involved" while he's sealed, then what exactly is leaking out? What is the gloom? What is breaking the Master Sword? What is fueling the Blood Moon / monster revival stuff? Hell how did the Calamity happen? What infected the Guardians?
His magic/blood stuff that he only has BECAUSE the Stone enabled it to begin with.

The crusty Ganondorf's Blood Moon feat, gloom output, and more all are a direct result of it, you can't just pretend his Secret Stone/Demon King power is switched off because you need Demise to scale over it, or whatever we were talking about.

That's not how this works.
Sealed Ganondorf is still post-stone Ganondorf.
Weakened? Yep.
Restrained? Sure.
Not in his final strongest form? Obviously.
But still the same Demon King whose power is leaking through the seal.

And again, this makes the Calamity point worse, not better.

If sealed, crusty, restrained, still-regenerating Ganondorf can cause Blood Moon shit through leaking power, then the feat belongs to him as the source.

• Not to the Calamity dregs.
• Not to Demise for "lmao hatred".
• Not to every random thing made from his malice.

Him being sealed explains why the power leaks out imperfectly.

And, yet the actual point you need isn't:

• "Can Ganondorf do Blood Moons?"

The answer is obviously yes, evidently he can.

What you NEED is:

• "Does Calamity Ganon, a manifestation of Ganondorf's leaking power, scale to the full feat as AP?"

Unfortunate as it might be, it doesn't.

Plus, of course mummy Ganondorf scales way above Calamity Ganon, my argument isn't that calamity Ganon should scale close to him because it is the manifestation of his power.

Then stop arguing in a way that requires exactly that.

Your argument keeps going:

• Calamity is Ganondorf's product.
• Calamity is tied to Blood Moons.
• Ganondorf indirectly causes it through Calamity (not even true).
• As such the Calamity should get a lower 5-C value.

That's still trying to get Calamity scaling from the source/manifestation relationship.

You can call it "somewhat", "lower value", "indirect", "linked", whatever the hell you want, it doesn't change the fact it's the same attempted method to try to gas him up to something he doesn't have.
And it still doesn't work.

A weaker manifestation being produced by a stronger source doesn't get a cool lil slice of the source's feat.
And "lower 5-C" isn't a compromise either fyi
If you think Calamity gets some fraction of the Blood Moon feat, prove the fraction. Don't just pick "lower but still the tier I want" because it sounds less absurd?

You need to prove exactly what fraction he'd scale to, not just vibe out a value.
As before:

• A leak from a reservoir doesn't scale to the reservoir.
• A flame from a furnace doesn't scale to the whole furnace.
• Phantom Ganon being made from Ganondorf's power doesn't mean Phantom Ganon gets Ganondorf's full rating.

Calamity being made from Ganondorf's malice doesn't mean Calamity gets Ganondorf's Blood Moon rating because he did not cause it under its own power.

What I am saying is that an official source gives credit to calamity Ganon for blood Moons in botw, and master works saying that they are caused by Ganondorf its not a contradiction, because calamity Ganon is the source of that feat, being the product of his hatred, it kinda makes indirectly Ganondorf being the one causing it in a certain sense. That's what I am saying, not that Ganon being a product of Ganondorf somehow makes Ganon scalable to him. It Ganon never had the blood moon feat itself, I'd agree with current ratings.

This is still the exact same issue, what makes you think just repeating it is going to convince anyone?

And no, the problem is far worse than you're making it sound, as under TotK context, Calamity Ganon is not even the real source of the Blood Moon feat anymore.

Back when BotW was the only context, sure. Calamity Ganon was just "Ganon" as far as the game and guide context knew. So yeah cool, under BotW context, the Blood Moon being credited to Calamity Ganon made sense, it was the only possible thing that could make sense even.

But TotK changed the whole premise.
Now we know the actual Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time.

• The Calamity is not "Zelda 1/2 Ganon a billion years later" anymore.
• It's Ganondorf's leaked malice / gloom / hatred manifesting as a Calamity.
• So the Blood Moon isn't "Calamity Ganon's own feat" anymore.

Ganondorf's power leaking out from the sealed source below Hyrule Castle is the new cause explicitly, this isn't up for debate.

The old BotW guide wording isn't deleted, but it is recontextualized.

BotW:

• "Calamity Ganon causes the Blood Moon."

Post-TotK:

• "the phenomenon BotW attributed to Calamity Ganon is actually coming from the sealed Ganondorf's leaked power, with Calamity being nothing but an amalgamation of excess leakage of his Gloom/Malice".

That distinction matters greatly. As if the Calamity is nothing but the manifestation / outlet / leakage of Ganondorf's power, and instead, the funny feat is caused by the source, not the leak's own output, there's nothing for it to scale off.

You're trying to keep the dated misinformed BotW context while ignoring the TotK reveal that explains what the Calamity actually is and how Blood Moons actually occurred.

You are, in effect, saying:

• Calamity Ganon is the source of the feat.

But also:

• Calamity Ganon is the product of Ganondorf's hatred.

If Calamity is the product, then Ganondorf is the source.

You keep trying to split the credit so both get what you want:

• Ganondorf is the real source when Master Works says Ganondorf is actually why.
• Calamity gets to keep the rating because Creating a Champion was written under BotW-only context and credited the visible active phenomenon that was the Calamity.

But TotK, and even IW, is a major problem for that.

BotW context:

• Calamity Ganon was treated as the sole incarnation of Ganon, because the game hadn't revealed the actual Ganondorf sealed below Hyrule Castle yet, if they even had plans for that reveal to be a thing (they didn't).

Meaning, a BotW guide saying "Ganon's power causes the Blood Moon" makes sense from the information available at the time.

TotK context:

• The actual Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time, also the Blood Moons are tied to him lmao.

Calamity Ganon is now understood as a meager offshoot.

It is recontextualized.

"Calamity Ganon causes it" under BotW's wording now simply mean:

• the Calamity was the visible active manifestation tied to the Blood Moon phenomenon.

Not:

• the Calamity body independently causes the full Blood Moon output as its own applicable power.

And not even:

• Calamity is still the true source of the Blood Moon.

Because it isn't.

Saying Calamity scales here is like saying a random scrimbly blimbo-ass monster revived by the Blood Moon scales too because it's also tied to Ganon's malice/gloom/Blood Moon cycle.
No.

Being derived from the same power source does not make every derived said thing scale to the source's feat.

• A Bokoblin conjured by Ganondorf's blood and malice and even revived by the Blood Moon doesn't scale to the Blood Moon.
• Phantom Ganon being made from Ganondorf's own tissue doesn't scale to Ganondorf.
• A gloom hand doesn't scale to the full Demon King.
• A leak doesn't scale to the whole reservoir.

The Calamity being a mass of leaked Ganondorf slop means nothing.

Causal involvement is not automatic AP scaling.
Being the visible phenomenon is not automatic AP scaling.
Being the outlet is not automatic AP scaling.
Being the product is not automatic AP scaling.
Being linked to the feat is not automatic AP scaling.

You need to prove Calamity Ganon itself outputs the Blood Moon feat under its own power in a way that scales to its stats.

All you've shown is a BotW guide that's grossly outdated that credited Calamity Ganon before two whole games and the direct sequel guide said "nuh uh actually-".

And no, saying "but Calamity had the feat itself" doesn't change a thing, that's exactly what's being recontextualized.

It "had" the feat in the same way a faucet "fills the bucket" while the actual water comes from the plumbing system.
It "had" the feat in the same way a flame comes out of a furnace.
It "had" the feat in the same way a puppet acts because someone is controlling it.
It "had" the feat in the same way the Saiyans got slimed out by a meteor before it was revealed that Frieza was who did it or whatnot.

And this is even more obvious given TotK shows Ganondorf doing Blood Moon / gloom nonsense while still in his crusty sealed state anyway.

So the actual source can do it without needing Calamity as some independent 5-C muppet either way.

The whole BotW issue is that we didn't know the actual source yet.
Now we do.

So the source gets the feat.

The dregs don't automatically get to keep it just because an old guide described the phenomenon using the only "Ganon" context BotW had.

And this line:

• "not that Ganon being a product of Ganondorf somehow makes Ganon scalable to him"

doesn't help. Your argument still relies on passing the feat down from the source/product relationship.

You're saying:

• I'm not scaling Calamity to Ganondorf because it's his product.

Then immediately:

• Calamity is credited with the Blood Moon, Ganondorf is doing it through Calamity, so Calamity should get a lower Blood Moon rating.

All you did was change the semantics from "scales to Ganondorf" to "gets credit for the feat".

Problem didn't just vanish dude.
If Calamity is independently outputting the Blood Moon, prove it.
If Calamity is Ganondorf's manifestation/outlet for leaking power, then the feat belongs to Ganondorf's power, not automatically to Calamity's own AP.

Spoiler: Agahnim / random Triforce fraction scaling

Samething with aganhim, even if he is powered up by Triforce as I think, I never stated that he is being empowered by the full Triforce in his fullest. But, since the full Triforce is so much above the single pieces, I'd expect aganhim scaling at least to a single piece if the full Triforce is granting him some power.

First off, "as I THINK". Why do you need to do that? Ignoring the fact the statement literally does not say what you think it does so there's no vague room for interpretation. You shouldn't be arguing on stuff so vague that there's even room for that, either it is or it isn't. We index what's actually the case, not whatever this is.
And second off, this is literally just guessing a value.

• "I'd expect Agahnim scaling at least to a single piece"

Based on what?
Where is the statement that Agahnim gets a single-piece level amp?
Where is the statement that the Triforce is granting him a quantifiable amount?
Where is the statement that any demon in Ganon's faction gets a relevant fraction?
Where is the statement that "full Triforce is way above one piece" means any random goon receiving any amount of power must reach one-piece level?
There is none.

You're just guessing a level you want to be true that isn't based on anything, which isn't how scaling works regardless.

Even if Agahnim were amped by Ganon / the Golden Power somehow, you would still need to prove the amount.

• It could be huge.
• It could be tiny.
• It could be just enough to perform a specific spell.
• It could be factional backing, not personal stat amp.
• It could be hax access.
• It could be ritual power.
• It could be literally anything without a statement.

Not you, nor anyone, can just go:

• "full Triforce big, so any amp from it should at least be one-piece tier"

WHY? Does that make the TotK Master Sword as strong as the ToP after a single attosecond of charge because it's coming from the full thing? Or what about the Silver enemies in Botw/TotK? They're given power from Ganon, why aren't they at least as strong as a Blight? Why isn't a lil rock on the ground as strong as ToC given the world itself is drawing from it for sustenance?

That's just vibes dude. Not even true either, Agahnim wasn't amped by it.

Spoiler: Sage Sword/Golden Sword Canonicity

But this isn't a matter of AP damaging the durability of Ganon, which is what I am proving, this is a better of finishing off an immortal being which power could be this powerful to not make it able to finish it off thanks to his immortality. Would u say the sage sword doesn't harm Ganondorf because it cannot finish him off? Because it failed to do so? This doesn't prove that the Golden Master Sword cannot harm Ganon.

This comparison is genuinely testing my patience... If this keeps turning into false equivalences this blatant, really gonna need to get staff evaluation instead of another 20 posts of the same loop, like there's no point anymore.

Regardless, The Sage Sword ran Ganondorf through.
Like, actually pierced him.
As in ripped a hole through his body, left a visible wound/scar, and that scar is still relevant 200 years later. The entire scene is framed around the Sages executing him and the sword physically impaling him.

That's not comparable to the Golden Sword in ALttP where the whole fight structure is:

• hit/stun/open Ganon
• Silver Arrows are required
• sword never finishes him
• sword never leaves any lasting injury
• sword never proves it can bypass his immortality
• sword never replaces the actual kill condition

The Sage Sword has direct visual / narrative evidence of tangible physical injury.
The Golden Sword has "it can stun him but not actually do anything past that, in fact, anything past that is impossible".

You're trying to use a weapon that demonstrably impaled and scarred Ganondorf as precedent for a weapon that LITERALLY CAN'T kill Ganon no matter how many times you swing it.

That's such a astronomical false equivalence dude. You're conflating two completely different weapon interactions into "weapon affected Ganon, ergo AP".

And again, given you're seemingly incapable of not strawmanning; I'm not saying:

• "if it doesn't kill him, it did literally nothing."

****, both mine AND Dust's argument essentially amounts to:

• "stunning / opening him up does not prove raw AP scaling to the full Triforce, especially given the characters we're dealing with and innate weakness and explicit exploitation of it as noted in that very game itself"

The Golden Sword can matter.

• It can be canon.
• It can be stronger than the normal Master Sword.
• It can help create the opening.
• It can be part of the required sequence.

That still doesn't prove:

• Golden Sword AP = full Triforce output.

And the Sage Sword comparison is honestly aggravating, as the Sage Sword actually pierced Ganondorf and left damage, while ALttP's Golden Sword still needs the Silver Arrows to do the decisive work.

Different context.
Different mechanics.
Different evidence.

You are also ignoring how official sources make it canon that you gain the golden master sword, and for which purpose if you think that all it does is stunning Ganondorf thanks to the same power that normal Master Sword has?

Hey, man, if you wanna say I ignored something, make goddamn sure I didn't spend 5 paragraphs literally not ignoring it and spending my time replying to it above.
Don't say I'm ignoring something I already answered posts ago.

I already said, basically word for word:

• Golden Sword can be the intended / lore-relevant ALttP weapon.
• I can agree with that.

But that only answers: "which sword did Link use?"

Not:

• "does the sword's raw AP scale to the full Triforce?"

Those are completely different questions.

So tough luck lad, I'm not ignoring that the Golden Sword is canon.
Nobody gives a shit if it's canon, like be real, do you actually think that matters here? Or are you just throwing out a strawman to argue?
Of course it's canon.
It exists, the game gives it to you, and it's the intended upgraded sword.

The ACTUAL disputed point is you taking:

• "Golden Sword is canon and stronger than base Master Sword"

and trying to twist that into:

• "Golden Sword raw AP scales to full-Triforce Ganon."

And don't pretend I said it has "the same power" as the normal Master Sword either.

I already answered that too.

The point was:

• base Master Sword can have weaker anti-evil interaction
• Golden Sword can have stronger anti-evil interaction

without either one scaling to the complete Triforce in raw AP.

That's not contradictory? That's literally how the upgrades can work.

A stronger version of a sacred weapon can render open a evil target better than the weaker version? That's always been the case. But that doesn't mean it equals the target's entire power source.

The normal Master Sword can already interact with Ganon to a degree through specific mechanics, or did you forget that? The Golden Sword is simply better at doing it.

Which only supports:

• stronger anti-evil suppression
• stronger sacred interaction
• better vulnerability creation

But sure af not:

• full-Triforce AP.

Stop acting like the argument is:

• "Golden Sword is not canon"

or:

• "Golden Sword is exactly the same as normal Master Sword"

Nobody argued that, not me, not Dust, not even Glassman, not a single person here.

The real argument is:

• Golden Sword being canon doesn't prove full-Triforce AP.
• Golden Sword being stronger does not prove full-Triforce AP.
• Golden Sword stunning / opening Ganon does not prove full-Triforce AP.
• Golden Sword being sharper does not prove full-Triforce AP.

Because the actual fight still goes:

• Golden Sword / sacred sword interaction creates the opening.
• Silver Arrows are the decisive finisher.
• Ganon cannot be killed by sword hits alone.

Like if you're going to make a CRT make sure you have the full context.

If the Golden Sword truly overpowered full-Triforce Ganon physically, then the Silver Arrows being mandatory makes no sense. Link should just cut him down normally.
But he can't.

The fight is quite literally built around holy counters, suppression, vulnerability creation, and soulfuckery.
Not Link physically matching the complete Triforce.

So again:

• Was the Golden Sword canon? Yes.
• Was the Golden Sword stronger than the normal Master Sword? Yes.
• Did the Golden Sword matter? Yes.
• Did I ignore any of this? No.

Does any of that prove Link's raw AP scales to full-Triforce Ganon? Still no.

You keep replying to a strawman, actually engage or drop it like come on.

Spoiler: Golden Sword sharpness / aura / Occam

What's the point of golden master sword edge being hyped as sharper? Look, gain this sharper sword, in order to not pierce Ganon. You cannot even claim it is essential to stun him, because in terms of anti evil property the Golden Master Sword isn't more holier than the master sword, the game description hypes the fact that it is sharper.

This is another one of those points where your argument falls apart the instant we actually check the source material instead of cherry-picking wording.

Right off the bat, "sharper" isn't even remotely the whole of it like you're acting like it is.

The Golden Sword isn't just "normal sword but edge sharper lol".

• "Golden Sword
  The Golden Sword is a magical blade created by a benevolent fairy in the Mysterious Pond. When a normal sword is thrown into the water, the fairy uses her ancient magic to create this powerful weapon with a gold-toned blade" - Website.

So it's explicitly magical.
Made by fairy magic (as in the stuff that counts as sacred and holy power as we see in multiple games).
A stronger magical/sacred weapon.

And in ALBW, the Japanese description for Master Sword Lv3 isn't even pulling the shit you're trying to push, let alone the "sharper edge" framing you're clinging to. It says:

• マスターソードLV3最強のマスターソード
  切っ先から発せられる
  オーラが凄まじい"
• Master Sword Lv3.
  The strongest Master Sword.
  The aura emitted from its tip is tremendous".

So funny that, the actual Japanese game wording is pointing at that its holy aura slop got a buff, that's interesting, is it not?
Not just "teehee sharper blade lol".

This is what I meant last post when I say you're selectively cherry-picking and just throwing whatever you think might stick whether it's right or wrong.

• You'll grab ALBW when it says something you think helps Golden Sword scale to a big number (by conveniently downplaying it but only in specific aspects?), but then ignore that same ALBW shows Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows still fighting a two-piece Yuganon as a real threat.
• You'll take "sharper" as if it means pure physical edge/AP only, but ignore the magical/fairy/aura context that makes it very obviously not just mundane sharpness that's getting bolstered.

Stop that. If your replies just going to keep ignoring the same context, this is going to have to become discussion-rule material.

And no, "the description doesn't say holier" means nothing, given it basically does.

But just ignore that for a moment; The Master Sword being stronger has always gone hand-in-hand with it being more effective as the Sword of Evil's Bane. The Master Sword is already a sacred evil-countering weapon.

If it gets magically upgraded, its anti-evil interaction getting better is not wild extrapolation as we've seen this literally happen multiple times throughout, in fact, funnily, TotK again.
In that the Blade gets sharper because it's imbued with greater sacred power, we also see it in Wind Waker, and we also see it in SS when it's first formed.

It's exactly what we'd expect. Golden Sword being sharper / stronger, is also part of it being magically amped in the context of AlttP, and in ALBW, it emitting a tremendous aura is a byproduct inversely (as in I'm not even guessing here, we know it to be the case in this situation as well), it can all be true, and yet it still does not mean:

• Golden Sword raw AP = full Triforce.

It being a stronger sacred blade that can stun or make vulnerable Ganon better than the base Master Sword without scaling to Ganon's full Golden Power is still true.

You're acting like the options are:

1. The Golden Sword is exactly the same as the Master Sword.

or

1. The Golden Sword scales to full-Triforce Ganon.

Sucks, but the secret 3rd, 4th, and 5th options all exist and work just fine.

The actual answer is:

1. The Golden Sword is a stronger magical/sacred version of the Master Sword, so it interacts better with Ganon and can make him vulnerable, though still doesn't prove raw AP scaling to the full Triforce.

That's the obvious middle ground here you pretend doesn't exist.

Occam's razor suggest that if the game describes as canonical and a narrative passage gaining a sharper sword to fight Ganon, not holier, there must be a reason.

Yeah.

The reason is:

• it's the strongest sword upgrade and it helps fight Ganon.

And?
What I denied is the insane extra step where "stronger magical sword helps fight Ganon" somehow entails "stronger magical sword scales to the full Triforce's omnipotent output".

Occam's Razor doesn't give you that. You know what it does give you? The very notion anything scaling at all is incoherent nonsense.

Fact is:

• Golden Sword is the best sword upgrade.
• Golden Sword helps stun/weaken/open Ganon.
• Silver Arrows are still required to finish him.
• Ganon still cannot be killed by sword hits alone.

Not complex.

Your version however:

• A fairy makes sword sharper/magical because the Lv2version in the sequel game you're cherry-picking from mentions it's sharper.
• So the sword AP scales to full-Triforce Ganon.
• Even though the sword cannot kill him.
• Even though Silver Arrows are mandatory.
• Even though ALBW later shows Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows still only fighting a two-piece Yuganon.
• Even though the sharper Master Sword you're talking about is weaker than the ToC, or at least only relative to a fraction of two-pieces and the ToC is required for the extra boost to win.
• Even though the same ALBW description you've been using points out the new tremendous aura.
• Even though the full Triforce is treated as without equal explicitly.

That's not Occam's Razor.
That's dragging the simplest read into an alley and beating it with a lead pipe as if that bad boy is Jason Todd.

But it all goes to silver arrows being necessary? So? The sage sword cannot finish off Ganondorf, but it can definitely harm him.

Stop comparing this to the Sage Sword.
The Sage Sword ran Ganondorf through.
It visibly pierced his body.
It left a wound/scar that remains 200 years (stated btw, thanks Eiji) later.

That's not even slightly adjacent to the Golden Sword stunning/opening ALttP Ganon so the Silver Arrows can do the actual damage.
Now, can:

• the Golden Sword affect him?
• help create the opening?
• be canon and necessary?

Yeah to all of that.
Does that prove full-Triforce AP? NO.

"Can affect" is not "scales to the full source of his power".
"Can set up the kill" is not "is the kill".
"Sharper/magically stronger sword" is not "complete Triforce AP".

And ALBW still exists, by the way.
Every time till you give me a damn good reason to just ignore it.
What makes you think you can use ALBW wording when convenient, then ignore ALBW's actual scaling context when it straight up disproves your entire argument as conjecture?

Spoiler: Light Arrows / Twinmold derail (separate issue)

Also re-reading your reply above, which I still need some time to reply properly to, when did I say light arrows and silver arrows are the same??

You didn't need to literally say they're identical.
You compared the scaling method directly.

You said, basically:

• "Light Arrows stun and get scaling, so Golden Sword stunning should get scaling too"
• "OoT Link beat Ganon and he had Light Arrows, so why doesn't AlttP scale"

And also some shit about Twinrova that literally doesn't matter.

So yeah, I pointed out that Light Arrows, Silver Arrows, and the Golden Sword do not share the same context just because they involve holy/anti-evil interactions, they have some differing hax.

Light Arrows have their own statements, own mechanics, and own scaling context.
Silver Arrows are a different thing.
Golden Sword is a different thing once again.
Lumping all of that together as "holy thing stuns evil dude = AP scaling" is baffling.

I just think it's essentially wrong to give the credit of alttp link only to silver arrows, because even though they are essential as a finisher blow, that doesn't mean the golden master sword is useless.

Real quick, right now, QUOTE WHO IN THIS THREAD SAID IT WAS USELESS?
Can you do that? No? Then stop strawmanning people. This is exactly why the thread keeps going in circles. Not a soul said the Golden Sword is useless.

Golden Sword being useful does not mean Golden Sword scales to the full Triforce however.

Golden Sword can be:

• canon
• stronger than the normal Master Sword
• magically upgraded
• sacred/fairy-amped
• better at interacting with Ganon
• needed to create the opening

and still not scale to the full Triforce in raw AP.

All of that can be true at once, all of it IS TRUE at once.

The actual problem is that you're treating "not full-Triforce AP" like it means "literally useless", and that's not what anyone said and it sure as hell isn't true either. You need the sword to render him vulnerable to land the Arrow that deals the actual harm. It's literally required, it's just not required for what you want it to be.

Also, if you believe that stunning doesn't mean scaling, why do we currently have Ganondorf scaling to twinmold because they both can be stunned by light arrows?

Then that chain can be checked too, I really don't care dude.

I've spent years working on OoT/MM scaling and have a pile of Japanese guides/lore stuff to go through anyway, you can be damned sure stuff is going to change for the better with far more backing, so if something in the old chain is bad, it can and will be changed.

Unfortunate as it might be, that's not a defense of your argument.

"Maybe another chain has an issue" means nothing, and most certainly not "this issue should be accepted too".

Two wrongs don't make a right. Take the hint man, I literally said that last time.

If Light Arrow scaling is being treated sloppily somewhere, that needs its own revision.

But it's nothing but derailment and honestly making you look bad given you're trying to use stuff you find suspect given you're literally framing this as "that's odd so why can't this be allowed", as if it magically validates Golden Sword full-Triforce AP.

And even then, you're ignoring the Light Arrow situation way too much.

Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
Ganondorf is far more evil than Twinmold.
If Light Arrows deal greater effect/damage relative to evil, then Ganondorf being stunned by them while Twinmold can die from them isn't a contradiction you're trying to make it.

A more evil, ToP-backed target staying alive after Light Arrow hits doesn't mean the arrows have no AP or that every holy stun works the same? We know they don't even, this isn't a topic of debate we're told pretty clearly how they work, what they scale above, and so forth.

But even ignoring that, the OoT/MM Light Arrows cross-scaling comes from them being treated as the same kind of thing across those games, with their own statements and mechanics.
That's its own discussion, stop cluttering your own thread.

It doesn't mean Golden Sword gets to suckle off the full Triforce.

And I already said last post that Light Arrows still have a base power value.
They're not just "pure hax with no AP whatsoever".

You already know this, why are you acting otherwise?
The point was that hax/holy interaction and AP need to be separated by context.

• If a Light Arrow physically damages/tanks/interacts in one scene, that can be looked at.
• If a sacred sword stuns/opens Ganon in a fight where it still can't kill him and Silver Arrows are mandatory, that does not automatically mean full-Triforce AP.

Major distinction going on there, no?

That's a major inconsistency, you basically scale light arrows to small planet level because they can stun Ganondorf, but Ganondorf small planet level because he can tank arrows just being stunned by them, but twinmold having small planet level durability gives the arrows small planet level AP when they could in fact harm him because it's an evil being with a weakness to holy things who never showed any resistence to such abilities and when they mostly stun him?

Again, if that specific chain is bad, revise that chain.
But why the hell are you using "maybe this other thing is also messy" as an argument for this CRT?

If your argument is:

• "stunning alone shouldn't equal AP"

then congrats.

You are literally repeating my point.

So why are you trying to use the Golden Sword stunning/opening Ganon as full-Triforce AP evidence?

Either holy stun / evil weakness interaction is enough for raw AP scaling, in which case you need to accept every absurd consequence that comes from that shoots it down anyway.

Or it isn't, in which case Golden Sword stunning/opening Ganon doesn't prove full-Triforce AP either.

Fact of the matter is:

• Light Arrow scaling needs to be judged by its own context.
• Golden Sword scaling needs to be judged by its own context.

And in ALttP's context, the sword does not kill Ganon (while they can slime Twinmold), the Silver Arrows are mandatory, the fight is loaded with a fuckton of specific sacred counters, and ALBW later makes full-Triforce Golden Sword scaling outright impossible.

So again, tough luck. But Twinmold is utterly irrelevant.

Golden Sword still doesn't scale to full-Triforce Ganon.

So no, once again:

• Golden Sword being canon? Yeah probably.
• Golden Sword being stronger than base Master Sword? Obviously.
• Golden Sword mattering in the Ganon fight? I mean yeah it does?
• Golden Sword raw-scaling to full-Triforce Ganon? Still not proven nor justified.
• Golden Sword helping create the opening? That's the actual thing being argued.

And Twinmold/Light Arrow scaling being potentially ***** doesn't validate anything here. Two wrongs don't make a right, especially when ALttP itself still has Silver Arrows as the actual wincon and ALBW still rips any notion of the Golden Sword scaling apart harder than my patience is here.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Spoiler: Blood Moon shit again

This is such a lost cause why am I replying again...
This still doesn't fix anything dude, what are you not getting?
You're acting as if "Creating a Champion says Calamity Ganon causes it" statement exists in a vacuum and can't be recontextualized by later information.

That's not how this, or any, franchise works. Man, your PFP is Type-Moon, the Holy Grail of later reveals recontextualizing old context. You know damn well this is a thing.

BotW context:

• Calamity Ganon is treated as Ganon.

So yeah, the Blood Moon being from "Calamity Ganon's power" made sense.
TotK context:

• The actual Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time.
  Calamity Ganon is a manifestation / offshoot / leakage of that power, and it's actually the sealed incarnation performing the feat.

The old statement doesn't get deleted, it gets explained.
This is also a source issue too.

• Finished sequel + finished tie-in to that sequel + newer direct lore context + new guide > older guide written before the reveal even existed.

So no, you can't freeze the old guide wording in place after the series itself explained what was actually going on behind it.
"Calamity Ganon causes it" in BotW context isn't current context.

But TotK tells us what the Calamity actually is and where it, and everything else, is coming from.

The source is Ganondorf.
The manifestation is Calamity.

You keep saying "it doesn't contradict", but then you're trying to make it contradict anyway by treating Calamity as the actual independent source of the feat instead of the product / outlet of Ganondorf's power.

If Calamity is the product of Ganondorf's malice, then Ganondorf is the source.
If Ganondorf is the source and the cause of the Blood Moons, then the feat doesn't automatically become Calamity's AP.

Like you know what also that book says?

• "Calamity Ganon’s powerful evil had a variety of effects on monsters, resurrecting previously killed monsters during the Blood Moon and causing fearsome silver monsters to appear".
• "Ganon’s Malice grants these monsters new life under the red glow of the Blood Moon".

And you know what TotK and the new book explicitly says wasn't actually the case and was, in fact, the sealed Ganondorf beneath the castle's power leaking out?
Hell you know the book also says Calamity Ganon is the AlttP and whatnot Ganon too right?
As in, if you're trying to take Creating a Champion's BotW-era context as unchangeable, you also need to take the outdated identity framing that TotK made impossible. You can't keep the Blood Moon attribution in a vacuum from 2017 while dropping the rest of the very same outdated context.
You don't seem to understand THINGS CHANGE.

Then the line was worded beyond poorly, because you said:

• "He isn't in that sealed mummy form, the game explicitly states that when Ganondorf uses his power he has his dark king form."

That was said in response to the sealed mummy / Blood Moon source point.
I responded to it like it was about the thing actually being discussed.

If you're backpedaling to:

• "mummy Ganondorf can cause Blood Moons, but his higher forms / Secret Stone state are stronger"

Well yeah damn, I agree.
Mummy Ganondorf can cause Blood Moons.
His stronger forms are stronger.

That still doesn't help Calamity Ganon.

Also this "mummy Ganondorf wasn't using the Secret Stone power" backpedal is honestly just confusing?
That's literally the point of his power set.

The Blood Moon / gloom / monster revival nonsense is coming from Ganondorf's power leaking out while he's sealed. And the very reason he even HAS those powers is
BECAUSE HE HAS THE SECRET STONE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Without that Stone there would be no Calamity, no Blood Moon, not even basic monsters.

Being sealed doesn't mean "base, no stone amp, totally unrelated to his Demon King power".
It means his power is being restrained, leaking out, and still causing shit anyway.

If the stone amp magically "wasn't involved" while he's sealed, then what exactly is leaking out? What is the gloom? What is breaking the Master Sword? What is fueling the Blood Moon / monster revival stuff? Hell how did the Calamity happen? What infected the Guardians?
His magic/blood stuff that he only has BECAUSE the Stone enabled it to begin with.

The crusty Ganondorf's Blood Moon feat, gloom output, and more all are a direct result of it, you can't just pretend his Secret Stone/Demon King power is switched off because you need Demise to scale over it, or whatever we were talking about.

That's not how this works.
Sealed Ganondorf is still post-stone Ganondorf.
Weakened? Yep.
Restrained? Sure.
Not in his final strongest form? Obviously.
But still the same Demon King whose power is leaking through the seal.

And again, this makes the Calamity point worse, not better.

If sealed, crusty, restrained, still-regenerating Ganondorf can cause Blood Moon shit through leaking power, then the feat belongs to him as the source.

• Not to the Calamity dregs.
• Not to Demise for "lmao hatred".
• Not to every random thing made from his malice.

Him being sealed explains why the power leaks out imperfectly.

And, yet the actual point you need isn't:

• "Can Ganondorf do Blood Moons?"

The answer is obviously yes, evidently he can.

What you NEED is:

• "Does Calamity Ganon, a manifestation of Ganondorf's leaking power, scale to the full feat as AP?"

Unfortunate as it might be, it doesn't.

Then stop arguing in a way that requires exactly that.

Your argument keeps going:

• Calamity is Ganondorf's product.
• Calamity is tied to Blood Moons.
• Ganondorf indirectly causes it through Calamity (not even true).
• As such the Calamity should get a lower 5-C value.

That's still trying to get Calamity scaling from the source/manifestation relationship.

You can call it "somewhat", "lower value", "indirect", "linked", whatever the hell you want, it doesn't change the fact it's the same attempted method to try to gas him up to something he doesn't have.
And it still doesn't work.

A weaker manifestation being produced by a stronger source doesn't get a cool lil slice of the source's feat.
And "lower 5-C" isn't a compromise either fyi
If you think Calamity gets some fraction of the Blood Moon feat, prove the fraction. Don't just pick "lower but still the tier I want" because it sounds less absurd?

You need to prove exactly what fraction he'd scale to, not just vibe out a value.
As before:

• A leak from a reservoir doesn't scale to the reservoir.
• A flame from a furnace doesn't scale to the whole furnace.
• Phantom Ganon being made from Ganondorf's power doesn't mean Phantom Ganon gets Ganondorf's full rating.

Calamity being made from Ganondorf's malice doesn't mean Calamity gets Ganondorf's Blood Moon rating because he did not cause it under its own power.

This is still the exact same issue, what makes you think just repeating it is going to convince anyone?

And no, the problem is far worse than you're making it sound, as under TotK context, Calamity Ganon is not even the real source of the Blood Moon feat anymore.

Back when BotW was the only context, sure. Calamity Ganon was just "Ganon" as far as the game and guide context knew. So yeah cool, under BotW context, the Blood Moon being credited to Calamity Ganon made sense, it was the only possible thing that could make sense even.

But TotK changed the whole premise.
Now we know the actual Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time.

• The Calamity is not "Zelda 1/2 Ganon a billion years later" anymore.
• It's Ganondorf's leaked malice / gloom / hatred manifesting as a Calamity.
• So the Blood Moon isn't "Calamity Ganon's own feat" anymore.

Ganondorf's power leaking out from the sealed source below Hyrule Castle is the new cause explicitly, this isn't up for debate.

The old BotW guide wording isn't deleted, but it is recontextualized.

BotW:

• "Calamity Ganon causes the Blood Moon."

Post-TotK:

• "the phenomenon BotW attributed to Calamity Ganon is actually coming from the sealed Ganondorf's leaked power, with Calamity being nothing but an amalgamation of excess leakage of his Gloom/Malice".

That distinction matters greatly. As if the Calamity is nothing but the manifestation / outlet / leakage of Ganondorf's power, and instead, the funny feat is caused by the source, not the leak's own output, there's nothing for it to scale off.

You're trying to keep the dated misinformed BotW context while ignoring the TotK reveal that explains what the Calamity actually is and how Blood Moons actually occurred.

You are, in effect, saying:

• Calamity Ganon is the source of the feat.

But also:

• Calamity Ganon is the product of Ganondorf's hatred.

If Calamity is the product, then Ganondorf is the source.

You keep trying to split the credit so both get what you want:

• Ganondorf is the real source when Master Works says Ganondorf is actually why.
• Calamity gets to keep the rating because Creating a Champion was written under BotW-only context and credited the visible active phenomenon that was the Calamity.

But TotK, and even IW, is a major problem for that.

BotW context:

• Calamity Ganon was treated as the sole incarnation of Ganon, because the game hadn't revealed the actual Ganondorf sealed below Hyrule Castle yet, if they even had plans for that reveal to be a thing (they didn't).

Meaning, a BotW guide saying "Ganon's power causes the Blood Moon" makes sense from the information available at the time.

TotK context:

• The actual Ganondorf was sealed under Hyrule Castle the whole time, also the Blood Moons are tied to him lmao.

Calamity Ganon is now understood as a meager offshoot.

It is recontextualized.

"Calamity Ganon causes it" under BotW's wording now simply mean:

• the Calamity was the visible active manifestation tied to the Blood Moon phenomenon.

Not:

• the Calamity body independently causes the full Blood Moon output as its own applicable power.

And not even:

• Calamity is still the true source of the Blood Moon.

Because it isn't.

Saying Calamity scales here is like saying a random scrimbly blimbo-ass monster revived by the Blood Moon scales too because it's also tied to Ganon's malice/gloom/Blood Moon cycle.
No.

Being derived from the same power source does not make every derived said thing scale to the source's feat.

• A Bokoblin conjured by Ganondorf's blood and malice and even revived by the Blood Moon doesn't scale to the Blood Moon.
• Phantom Ganon being made from Ganondorf's own tissue doesn't scale to Ganondorf.
• A gloom hand doesn't scale to the full Demon King.
• A leak doesn't scale to the whole reservoir.

The Calamity being a mass of leaked Ganondorf slop means nothing.

Causal involvement is not automatic AP scaling.
Being the visible phenomenon is not automatic AP scaling.
Being the outlet is not automatic AP scaling.
Being the product is not automatic AP scaling.
Being linked to the feat is not automatic AP scaling.

You need to prove Calamity Ganon itself outputs the Blood Moon feat under its own power in a way that scales to its stats.

All you've shown is a BotW guide that's grossly outdated that credited Calamity Ganon before two whole games and the direct sequel guide said "nuh uh actually-".

And no, saying "but Calamity had the feat itself" doesn't change a thing, that's exactly what's being recontextualized.

It "had" the feat in the same way a faucet "fills the bucket" while the actual water comes from the plumbing system.
It "had" the feat in the same way a flame comes out of a furnace.
It "had" the feat in the same way a puppet acts because someone is controlling it.
It "had" the feat in the same way the Saiyans got slimed out by a meteor before it was revealed that Frieza was who did it or whatnot.

And this is even more obvious given TotK shows Ganondorf doing Blood Moon / gloom nonsense while still in his crusty sealed state anyway.

So the actual source can do it without needing Calamity as some independent 5-C muppet either way.

The whole BotW issue is that we didn't know the actual source yet.
Now we do.

So the source gets the feat.

The dregs don't automatically get to keep it just because an old guide described the phenomenon using the only "Ganon" context BotW had.

And this line:

• "not that Ganon being a product of Ganondorf somehow makes Ganon scalable to him"

doesn't help. Your argument still relies on passing the feat down from the source/product relationship.

You're saying:

• I'm not scaling Calamity to Ganondorf because it's his product.

Then immediately:

• Calamity is credited with the Blood Moon, Ganondorf is doing it through Calamity, so Calamity should get a lower Blood Moon rating.

All you did was change the semantics from "scales to Ganondorf" to "gets credit for the feat".

Problem didn't just vanish dude.
If Calamity is independently outputting the Blood Moon, prove it.
If Calamity is Ganondorf's manifestation/outlet for leaking power, then the feat belongs to Ganondorf's power, not automatically to Calamity's own AP.

Spoiler: Agahnim / random Triforce fraction scaling

First off, "as I THINK". Why do you need to do that? Ignoring the fact the statement literally does not say what you think it does so there's no vague room for interpretation. You shouldn't be arguing on stuff so vague that there's even room for that, either it is or it isn't. We index what's actually the case, not whatever this is.
And second off, this is literally just guessing a value.

• "I'd expect Agahnim scaling at least to a single piece"

Based on what?
Where is the statement that Agahnim gets a single-piece level amp?
Where is the statement that the Triforce is granting him a quantifiable amount?
Where is the statement that any demon in Ganon's faction gets a relevant fraction?
Where is the statement that "full Triforce is way above one piece" means any random goon receiving any amount of power must reach one-piece level?
There is none.

You're just guessing a level you want to be true that isn't based on anything, which isn't how scaling works regardless.

Even if Agahnim were amped by Ganon / the Golden Power somehow, you would still need to prove the amount.

• It could be huge.
• It could be tiny.
• It could be just enough to perform a specific spell.
• It could be factional backing, not personal stat amp.
• It could be hax access.
• It could be ritual power.
• It could be literally anything without a statement.

Not you, nor anyone, can just go:

• "full Triforce big, so any amp from it should at least be one-piece tier"

WHY? Does that make the TotK Master Sword as strong as the ToP after a single attosecond of charge because it's coming from the full thing? Or what about the Silver enemies in Botw/TotK? They're given power from Ganon, why aren't they at least as strong as a Blight? Why isn't a lil rock on the ground as strong as ToC given the world itself is drawing from it for sustenance?

That's just vibes dude. Not even true either, Agahnim wasn't amped by it.

Spoiler: Sage Sword/Golden Sword Canonicity

This comparison is genuinely testing my patience... If this keeps turning into false equivalences this blatant, really gonna need to get staff evaluation instead of another 20 posts of the same loop, like there's no point anymore.

Regardless, The Sage Sword ran Ganondorf through.
Like, actually pierced him.
As in ripped a hole through his body, left a visible wound/scar, and that scar is still relevant 200 years later. The entire scene is framed around the Sages executing him and the sword physically impaling him.

That's not comparable to the Golden Sword in ALttP where the whole fight structure is:

• hit/stun/open Ganon
• Silver Arrows are required
• sword never finishes him
• sword never leaves any lasting injury
• sword never proves it can bypass his immortality
• sword never replaces the actual kill condition

The Sage Sword has direct visual / narrative evidence of tangible physical injury.
The Golden Sword has "it can stun him but not actually do anything past that, in fact, anything past that is impossible".

You're trying to use a weapon that demonstrably impaled and scarred Ganondorf as precedent for a weapon that LITERALLY CAN'T kill Ganon no matter how many times you swing it.

That's such a astronomical false equivalence dude. You're conflating two completely different weapon interactions into "weapon affected Ganon, ergo AP".

And again, given you're seemingly incapable of not strawmanning; I'm not saying:

• "if it doesn't kill him, it did literally nothing."

****, both mine AND Dust's argument essentially amounts to:

• "stunning / opening him up does not prove raw AP scaling to the full Triforce, especially given the characters we're dealing with and innate weakness and explicit exploitation of it as noted in that very game itself"

The Golden Sword can matter.

• It can be canon.
• It can be stronger than the normal Master Sword.
• It can help create the opening.
• It can be part of the required sequence.

That still doesn't prove:

• Golden Sword AP = full Triforce output.

And the Sage Sword comparison is honestly aggravating, as the Sage Sword actually pierced Ganondorf and left damage, while ALttP's Golden Sword still needs the Silver Arrows to do the decisive work.

Different context.
Different mechanics.
Different evidence.

Hey, man, if you wanna say I ignored something, make goddamn sure I didn't spend 5 paragraphs literally not ignoring it and spending my time replying to it above.
Don't say I'm ignoring something I already answered posts ago.

I already said, basically word for word:

• Golden Sword can be the intended / lore-relevant ALttP weapon.
• I can agree with that.

But that only answers: "which sword did Link use?"

Not:

• "does the sword's raw AP scale to the full Triforce?"

Those are completely different questions.

So tough luck lad, I'm not ignoring that the Golden Sword is canon.
Nobody gives a shit if it's canon, like be real, do you actually think that matters here? Or are you just throwing out a strawman to argue?
Of course it's canon.
It exists, the game gives it to you, and it's the intended upgraded sword.

The ACTUAL disputed point is you taking:

• "Golden Sword is canon and stronger than base Master Sword"

and trying to twist that into:

• "Golden Sword raw AP scales to full-Triforce Ganon."

And don't pretend I said it has "the same power" as the normal Master Sword either.

I already answered that too.

The point was:

• base Master Sword can have weaker anti-evil interaction
• Golden Sword can have stronger anti-evil interaction

without either one scaling to the complete Triforce in raw AP.

That's not contradictory? That's literally how the upgrades can work.

A stronger version of a sacred weapon can render open a evil target better than the weaker version? That's always been the case. But that doesn't mean it equals the target's entire power source.

The normal Master Sword can already interact with Ganon to a degree through specific mechanics, or did you forget that? The Golden Sword is simply better at doing it.

Which only supports:

• stronger anti-evil suppression
• stronger sacred interaction
• better vulnerability creation

But sure af not:

• full-Triforce AP.

Stop acting like the argument is:

• "Golden Sword is not canon"

or:

• "Golden Sword is exactly the same as normal Master Sword"

Nobody argued that, not me, not Dust, not even Glassman, not a single person here.

The real argument is:

• Golden Sword being canon doesn't prove full-Triforce AP.
• Golden Sword being stronger does not prove full-Triforce AP.
• Golden Sword stunning / opening Ganon does not prove full-Triforce AP.
• Golden Sword being sharper does not prove full-Triforce AP.

Because the actual fight still goes:

• Golden Sword / sacred sword interaction creates the opening.
• Silver Arrows are the decisive finisher.
• Ganon cannot be killed by sword hits alone.

Like if you're going to make a CRT make sure you have the full context.

If the Golden Sword truly overpowered full-Triforce Ganon physically, then the Silver Arrows being mandatory makes no sense. Link should just cut him down normally.
But he can't.

The fight is quite literally built around holy counters, suppression, vulnerability creation, and soulfuckery.
Not Link physically matching the complete Triforce.

So again:

• Was the Golden Sword canon? Yes.
• Was the Golden Sword stronger than the normal Master Sword? Yes.
• Did the Golden Sword matter? Yes.
• Did I ignore any of this? No.

Does any of that prove Link's raw AP scales to full-Triforce Ganon? Still no.

You keep replying to a strawman, actually engage or drop it like come on.

Spoiler: Golden Sword sharpness / aura / Occam

This is another one of those points where your argument falls apart the instant we actually check the source material instead of cherry-picking wording.

Right off the bat, "sharper" isn't even remotely the whole of it like you're acting like it is.

The Golden Sword isn't just "normal sword but edge sharper lol".

• "Golden Sword
  The Golden Sword is a magical blade created by a benevolent fairy in the Mysterious Pond. When a normal sword is thrown into the water, the fairy uses her ancient magic to create this powerful weapon with a gold-toned blade" - Website.

So it's explicitly magical.
Made by fairy magic (as in the stuff that counts as sacred and holy power as we see in multiple games).
A stronger magical/sacred weapon.

And in ALBW, the Japanese description for Master Sword Lv3 isn't even pulling the shit you're trying to push, let alone the "sharper edge" framing you're clinging to. It says:

• マスターソードLV3最強のマスターソード
  切っ先から発せられる
  オーラが凄まじい"
• Master Sword Lv3.
  The strongest Master Sword.
  The aura emitted from its tip is tremendous".

So funny that, the actual Japanese game wording is pointing at that its holy aura slop got a buff, that's interesting, is it not?
Not just "teehee sharper blade lol".

This is what I meant last post when I say you're selectively cherry-picking and just throwing whatever you think might stick whether it's right or wrong.

• You'll grab ALBW when it says something you think helps Golden Sword scale to a big number (by conveniently downplaying it but only in specific aspects?), but then ignore that same ALBW shows Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows still fighting a two-piece Yuganon as a real threat.
• You'll take "sharper" as if it means pure physical edge/AP only, but ignore the magical/fairy/aura context that makes it very obviously not just mundane sharpness that's getting bolstered.

Stop that. If your replies just going to keep ignoring the same context, this is going to have to become discussion-rule material.

And no, "the description doesn't say holier" means nothing, given it basically does.

But just ignore that for a moment; The Master Sword being stronger has always gone hand-in-hand with it being more effective as the Sword of Evil's Bane. The Master Sword is already a sacred evil-countering weapon.

If it gets magically upgraded, its anti-evil interaction getting better is not wild extrapolation as we've seen this literally happen multiple times throughout, in fact, funnily, TotK again.
In that the Blade gets sharper because it's imbued with greater sacred power, we also see it in Wind Waker, and we also see it in SS when it's first formed.

It's exactly what we'd expect. Golden Sword being sharper / stronger, is also part of it being magically amped in the context of AlttP, and in ALBW, it emitting a tremendous aura is a byproduct inversely (as in I'm not even guessing here, we know it to be the case in this situation as well), it can all be true, and yet it still does not mean:

• Golden Sword raw AP = full Triforce.

It being a stronger sacred blade that can stun or make vulnerable Ganon better than the base Master Sword without scaling to Ganon's full Golden Power is still true.

You're acting like the options are:

1. The Golden Sword is exactly the same as the Master Sword.

or

1. The Golden Sword scales to full-Triforce Ganon.

Sucks, but the secret 3rd, 4th, and 5th options all exist and work just fine.

The actual answer is:

1. The Golden Sword is a stronger magical/sacred version of the Master Sword, so it interacts better with Ganon and can make him vulnerable, though still doesn't prove raw AP scaling to the full Triforce.

That's the obvious middle ground here you pretend doesn't exist.

Yeah.

The reason is:

• it's the strongest sword upgrade and it helps fight Ganon.

And?
What I denied is the insane extra step where "stronger magical sword helps fight Ganon" somehow entails "stronger magical sword scales to the full Triforce's omnipotent output".

Occam's Razor doesn't give you that. You know what it does give you? The very notion anything scaling at all is incoherent nonsense.

Fact is:

• Golden Sword is the best sword upgrade.
• Golden Sword helps stun/weaken/open Ganon.
• Silver Arrows are still required to finish him.
• Ganon still cannot be killed by sword hits alone.

Not complex.

Your version however:

• A fairy makes sword sharper/magical because the Lv2version in the sequel game you're cherry-picking from mentions it's sharper.
• So the sword AP scales to full-Triforce Ganon.
• Even though the sword cannot kill him.
• Even though Silver Arrows are mandatory.
• Even though ALBW later shows Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows still only fighting a two-piece Yuganon.
• Even though the sharper Master Sword you're talking about is weaker than the ToC, or at least only relative to a fraction of two-pieces and the ToC is required for the extra boost to win.
• Even though the same ALBW description you've been using points out the new tremendous aura.
• Even though the full Triforce is treated as without equal explicitly.

That's not Occam's Razor.
That's dragging the simplest read into an alley and beating it with a lead pipe as if that bad boy is Jason Todd.

Stop comparing this to the Sage Sword.
The Sage Sword ran Ganondorf through.
It visibly pierced his body.
It left a wound/scar that remains 200 years (stated btw, thanks Eiji) later.

That's not even slightly adjacent to the Golden Sword stunning/opening ALttP Ganon so the Silver Arrows can do the actual damage.
Now, can:

• the Golden Sword affect him?
• help create the opening?
• be canon and necessary?

Yeah to all of that.
Does that prove full-Triforce AP? NO.

"Can affect" is not "scales to the full source of his power".
"Can set up the kill" is not "is the kill".
"Sharper/magically stronger sword" is not "complete Triforce AP".

And ALBW still exists, by the way.
Every time till you give me a damn good reason to just ignore it.
What makes you think you can use ALBW wording when convenient, then ignore ALBW's actual scaling context when it straight up disproves your entire argument as conjecture?

Spoiler: Light Arrows / Twinmold derail (separate issue)

You didn't need to literally say they're identical.
You compared the scaling method directly.

You said, basically:

• "Light Arrows stun and get scaling, so Golden Sword stunning should get scaling too"
• "OoT Link beat Ganon and he had Light Arrows, so why doesn't AlttP scale"

And also some shit about Twinrova that literally doesn't matter.

So yeah, I pointed out that Light Arrows, Silver Arrows, and the Golden Sword do not share the same context just because they involve holy/anti-evil interactions, they have some differing hax.

Light Arrows have their own statements, own mechanics, and own scaling context.
Silver Arrows are a different thing.
Golden Sword is a different thing once again.
Lumping all of that together as "holy thing stuns evil dude = AP scaling" is baffling.


Real quick, right now, QUOTE WHO IN THIS THREAD SAID IT WAS USELESS?
Can you do that? No? Then stop strawmanning people. This is exactly why the thread keeps going in circles. Not a soul said the Golden Sword is useless.

Golden Sword being useful does not mean Golden Sword scales to the full Triforce however.

Golden Sword can be:

• canon
• stronger than the normal Master Sword
• magically upgraded
• sacred/fairy-amped
• better at interacting with Ganon
• needed to create the opening

and still not scale to the full Triforce in raw AP.

All of that can be true at once, all of it IS TRUE at once.

The actual problem is that you're treating "not full-Triforce AP" like it means "literally useless", and that's not what anyone said and it sure as hell isn't true either. You need the sword to render him vulnerable to land the Arrow that deals the actual harm. It's literally required, it's just not required for what you want it to be.

Then that chain can be checked too, I really don't care dude.

I've spent years working on OoT/MM scaling and have a pile of Japanese guides/lore stuff to go through anyway, you can be damned sure stuff is going to change for the better with far more backing, so if something in the old chain is bad, it can and will be changed.

Unfortunate as it might be, that's not a defense of your argument.

"Maybe another chain has an issue" means nothing, and most certainly not "this issue should be accepted too".

Two wrongs don't make a right. Take the hint man, I literally said that last time.

If Light Arrow scaling is being treated sloppily somewhere, that needs its own revision.

But it's nothing but derailment and honestly making you look bad given you're trying to use stuff you find suspect given you're literally framing this as "that's odd so why can't this be allowed", as if it magically validates Golden Sword full-Triforce AP.

And even then, you're ignoring the Light Arrow situation way too much.

Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
Ganondorf is far more evil than Twinmold.
If Light Arrows deal greater effect/damage relative to evil, then Ganondorf being stunned by them while Twinmold can die from them isn't a contradiction you're trying to make it.

A more evil, ToP-backed target staying alive after Light Arrow hits doesn't mean the arrows have no AP or that every holy stun works the same? We know they don't even, this isn't a topic of debate we're told pretty clearly how they work, what they scale above, and so forth.

But even ignoring that, the OoT/MM Light Arrows cross-scaling comes from them being treated as the same kind of thing across those games, with their own statements and mechanics.
That's its own discussion, stop cluttering your own thread.

It doesn't mean Golden Sword gets to suckle off the full Triforce.

And I already said last post that Light Arrows still have a base power value.
They're not just "pure hax with no AP whatsoever".

You already know this, why are you acting otherwise?
The point was that hax/holy interaction and AP need to be separated by context.

• If a Light Arrow physically damages/tanks/interacts in one scene, that can be looked at.
• If a sacred sword stuns/opens Ganon in a fight where it still can't kill him and Silver Arrows are mandatory, that does not automatically mean full-Triforce AP.

Major distinction going on there, no?

Again, if that specific chain is bad, revise that chain.
But why the hell are you using "maybe this other thing is also messy" as an argument for this CRT?

If your argument is:

• "stunning alone shouldn't equal AP"

then congrats.

You are literally repeating my point.

So why are you trying to use the Golden Sword stunning/opening Ganon as full-Triforce AP evidence?

Either holy stun / evil weakness interaction is enough for raw AP scaling, in which case you need to accept every absurd consequence that comes from that shoots it down anyway.

Or it isn't, in which case Golden Sword stunning/opening Ganon doesn't prove full-Triforce AP either.

Fact of the matter is:

• Light Arrow scaling needs to be judged by its own context.
• Golden Sword scaling needs to be judged by its own context.

And in ALttP's context, the sword does not kill Ganon (while they can slime Twinmold), the Silver Arrows are mandatory, the fight is loaded with a fuckton of specific sacred counters, and ALBW later makes full-Triforce Golden Sword scaling outright impossible.

So again, tough luck. But Twinmold is utterly irrelevant.

Golden Sword still doesn't scale to full-Triforce Ganon.

So no, once again:

• Golden Sword being canon? Yeah probably.
• Golden Sword being stronger than base Master Sword? Obviously.
• Golden Sword mattering in the Ganon fight? I mean yeah it does?
• Golden Sword raw-scaling to full-Triforce Ganon? Still not proven nor justified.
• Golden Sword helping create the opening? That's the actual thing being argued.

And Twinmold/Light Arrow scaling being potentially ***** doesn't validate anything here. Two wrongs don't make a right, especially when ALttP itself still has Silver Arrows as the actual wincon and ALBW still rips any notion of the Golden Sword scaling apart harder than my patience is here.

Chill man. I am honest intellectualy, so I recognize you explained yourself better with the decision to not attribute the feat to calamity canon, and now I am convinced as well. I would still like to check about mummy ganondorf using the stone or not tho, because I remember masterworks saying dark power was something inner in ganondorf or sort of the likes. Edit: I checked, fair enough, can't even scale demise to mummy ganondorf.

Golden Sword can have stronger anti-evil interaction

But this is unproven, nothing state this, just like you all claim I go by vibing, the game is explicit, the sword is stronger because it is sharper not because it has a stronger anti-evil interaction, and having a sharper blade compared to master sword kinda become meaningless if you don't cut Ganon, what's the purpose of it I am asking again? Prove to me that golden sword is more useful because of a stronger anti-evil interaction, that's not very different from me claiming that the great fairy could have gotten stronger in the dark world so she gave a super powerful amp compared to other great fairies who are usually way below a single piece of triforce. I prefer you telling me: "yeah the sword was meant to cut ganon, since there are several statement of the edge of the sword being sharper, no single evidence of it having any stronger anti-evil property, but I see it as outlier because this and this", and see if others would agree or not, but trying to say "Oh, but in the game itself it's not like the sword really does anything except anti-evil property stun that the basic master sword should be able to do" makes the whole concept, idea of golden master sword basically meaningless and without any logical sense. And yes, I have read the great fairy giving it aura and ancient magic bla bla, of course the golden master sword stores more magical power and sharper blade, but having more magic or magical power doesn't really mean = more anti evil property, especially because the fairy that boosts the sword is corrupted by the evil magic of ganon. So, I do disagree with this implication that stronger aura, stronger magical power and sharpness is equal to more anti evil property making then the sword actually useful for this, based on the game it's more clear that while having the same equal anti-evil property level, the golden master sword's stronger magical power and sharpness makes hurt ganon with normal attacks and not only spin attacks of classic MS. The anti-evil property is basically the same, nothing points out golden ms being more effective with his anti-evil property. Feel free to use your influence or anything to make it a rule, call all the staff you want, It doesn't really matter to me, would only show a bias and preference towards users if that really happens, because this thread is being useful, especially because there isn't a current consensous regarding if Ganon has the full triforce or not in the final fight, even if the wiki will go with the outlier argument it's still something that should be addressed.

Again, if that specific chain is bad, revise that chain.
But why the hell are you using "maybe this other thing is also messy" as an argument for this CRT?

because I used what was already accepted and proposed something almost identical, thinking that since one chain based on certain logic is currently accepted then logically mine should too. But, congrats, at least you are now admitting current scaling isn't good, I want a consistent method, that's my goal. If the chain scaling from majora gets removed, I'll finally see some consistency and I won't try to use the same argument as one established as factual currently in the wiki.

And Twinmold/Light Arrow scaling being potentially ***** doesn't validate anything here.

It was useful to bring it, because our method should be the same and we should be following UES guideline, or not?

For Aganhim being empowerd by triforce, I just go with the manual, which u all take as unreliable and that's pretty much it, I used the words personal opinion not because I think so out of vibe, but I do see a manual out in that year as valuable to get info on a game.
I am free to make it evaluated in the wiki, I can propose the guide and see if it gets accepted and I can personally believe in it, it is a right of mine, I didn't break any rule.

 

[Dust_Collector]

The Master Sword getting stronger also makes it's sacred "lmao **** evil" powers more potent. While the ingame damage values remain the same, the True Master Sword in Skyward Sword is stated on page 142 of the encyclopedia to be stronger in general compared to it's previous state, which in turn made it's sacred powers go from something demons revile to something potent enough to drive them back entirely. TOTK is the most blatant example of this, when Zelda powers it up for like a trillion years or whatever in addition to the sword becoming physically strong enough to clap Ganon it's sacred powers against evil become more effective too.

The swords description makes note of the blade gleaming with a "sacred luster that can oppose the Demon King", and during the final boss fight it can even reflect and purify the Gloom upon contact with no negative effects, when previously it's anti evils powers didn't do shit when it came into contact with Gloom at the start of the game and ended up having it's sacred powers weakened. It's power and the effectiveness of it's anti-evil properties go hand in hand. Great Fairies just so happen to possess sacred energy that the sword can take in. And in responce to this part of the argument specifically:

but having more magic or magical power doesn't really mean = more anti evil property, especially because the fairy that boosts the sword is corrupted by the evil magic of ganon

All Ganon did was make her fat, he didn't infect her magic with raw evil energy or whatever that would make it so her sacred powers wouldn't make the Master Swords anti-evil power more effective, hell if evil magic truly had any affect on her ability to affect the Master Swords anti evil properties I don't think she'd even be able to amp it in the first place.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

The Master Sword getting stronger also makes it's sacred "lmao **** evil" powers more potent. While the ingame damage values remain the same, the True Master Sword in Skyward Sword is stated on page 142 of the encyclopedia to be stronger in general compared to it's previous state, which in turn made it's sacred powers go from something demons revile to something potent enough to drive them back entirely. TOTK is the most blatant example of this, when Zelda powers it up for like a trillion years or whatever in addition to the sword becoming physically strong enough to clap Ganon it's sacred powers against evil become more effective too.

The swords description makes note of the blade gleaming with a "sacred luster that can oppose the Demon King", and during the final boss fight it can even reflect and purify the Gloom upon contact with no negative effects, when previously it's anti evils powers didn't do shit when it came into contact with Gloom at the start of the game and ended up having it's sacred powers weakened. It's power and the effectiveness of it's anti-evil properties go hand in hand. Great Fairies just so happen to possess sacred energy that the sword can take in. And in responce to this part of the argument specifically:


All Ganon did was make her fat, he didn't infect her magic with raw evil energy or whatever that would make it so her sacred powers wouldn't make the Master Swords anti-evil power more effective, hell if evil magic truly had any affect on her ability to affect the Master Swords anti evil properties I don't think she'd even be able to amp it in the first place.

I perfectly know that true master sword and totk one got stronger and more holy at the same time, but you can't bring later games for alttp. The same quote you posted about great fairies, explicitly associates a different color with Smith working on a better material etc. Especially the albw one doesn't have any magic Amp, just made it sharper with materials. Nothing indicates that the golden master sword has more anti-evil property just because other versions of master sword do. Actually, in terms of this, at least before totk, the true master sword was the most anti evil one. It's called ultimate in the thing you posted, while golden Master sword in the same source its still considered the strongest. So in order to make sense, it's clear the true master sword had more anti-evil power, while golden Master sword is the post powerful ap wise.

 

[Chariot190]

Chill man. I am honest intellectualy, so I recognize you explained yourself better with the decision to not attribute the feat to calamity canon, and now I am convinced as well. I would still like to check about mummy ganondorf using the stone or not tho, because I remember masterworks saying dark power was something inner in ganondorf or sort of the likes. Edit: I checked, fair enough, can't even scale demise to mummy ganondorf.

If you're convinced Calamity doesn't get the feat and Demise doesn't scale to mummy Ganondorf, well then that whole thing is dead and we can move on.

tldr before the walls: your remaining argument keeps relying on conjecture or headcanon now.

"Same anti-evil property", "sharpness only", "UES applies", "NA manual is automatically usable", and more, are all claims you still must prove. You keep treating them like the default, yet none of them are dude, especially when for all of these, we're given information on the contrary so we know they aren't the default, at least in these specific cases.

Now for the remaining stuff.

Spoiler: Golden Sword / sharpness-only framing

But this is unproven, nothing state this, just like you all claim I go by vibing,

You just said you can be intellectually honest, so don't immediately 180 and act like I didn't post actual source wording dude.

"Unproven"? I already gave the source basis. You're just ignoring it and defaulting back to "sharper blade" because that's the only way that helps your AP goal.

The Golden Sword isn't even remotely just "normal sword but physically sharper".

Old Zelda.com / Great Hyrule Encyclopedia literally says:

• "Golden Sword
  The Golden Sword is a magical blade created by a benevolent fairy in the Mysterious Pond. When a normal sword is thrown into the water, the fairy uses her ancient magic to create this powerful weapon with a gold-toned blade".

So already, for the specific sword you need glazed, it's not just mundane sharpness.

• Magical blade.
• Fairy magic.
• Ancient magic.
• Powerful weapon.

And mind you, this isn't talking about the Master Sword's default state. This is specifically about the ALttP Golden Sword's added nuance.

the game is explicit, the sword is stronger because it is sharper not because it has a stronger anti-evil interaction,

Lil issue there. You keep saying "the game is explicit" while clinging to the weakest possible English-only framing and ignoring the actual magic/aura context.

ALBW's Japanese Master Sword Lv3 text says:

• マスターソードLV3
  最強のマスターソード
  切っ先から発せられる
  オーラが凄まじい
• Master Sword Lv3.
  The strongest Master Sword.
  The aura emitted from its tip is tremendous.

Meaning, the actual source material is not just acting like "edge sharper, so physical AP only methinks".

The raw text I brought up is literally pointing at its aura in the very text for the sword being upgraded.
The upgrade is magical / sacred / aura-based.

You calling stronger anti-evil interaction "unproven" while ignoring the VERY text hyping its aura and magic is insane, especially because that statement is the Japanese version of the very statement in your OP.

And the "sharper only" framing you're trying to hide behind isn't even the raw. The Japanese Lv3 text doesn't need your "sharper blade only" thing. It calls it the strongest Master Sword and emphasizes the tremendous aura emitted from it.

So if you're going to argue:

• "no, it is only physical sharpness, no stronger sacred interaction"

then you need to prove that, given the game sure as hell don't agree with you, given the evidence we actually have is:

• magical blade
• ancient fairy magic
• stronger Master Sword
• tremendous aura
• Master Sword's established evil-countering nature
• multiple games where sacred power and sword performance are intrinsically tied together

THAT is the actual sourcing.

Ergo, your "same anti-evil property, only physical AP changed" restriction is what's not stated anywhere, and is actively contradicted by how the series repeatedly treats the Master Sword's aura/glow/sacred power.

and having a sharper blade compared to master sword kinda become meaningless if you don't cut Ganon, what's the purpose of it I am asking again?

This has been answered over and over.

The purpose is that it MAKES GANON VULNERABLE AND STUNS HIM.

• It helps stun him.
• It helps open him up.
• It helps make him vulnerable.
• It performs better than the base Master Sword.
• It is part of the fight sequence.

That is not meaningless.
You keep acting as if:

• "doesn't prove full-Triforce AP"

means:

• "does nothing"

By this logic EVERYTHING IS USELESS.

• The Golden Sword can be important without being the kill condition.
• The Golden Sword can be useful without replacing Silver Arrows.
• The Golden Sword can be stronger than the base Master Sword without scaling to the complete Triforce.

Like why are acting like this? And worst of, what's Ganon have to do with anything?
The Golden Sword isn't STRICTLY FOR Ganon? It still obliterfucks other enemies?

Prove to me that golden sword is more useful because of a stronger anti-evil interaction,

Dude, it's your job to prove to US your proposal. Nobody has to prove anything to you, it's you who wants to change things.

Besides, I already did:

• The weapon is the Master Sword.
• The Master Sword is the Sword of Evil's Bane.
• The upgrade is magical explicitly.
• The upgrade is done through fairy / ancient magic which is established as being sacred power (which bolsters the Master Sword's evil bane effect).
• The ALBW Lv3 text emphasizes its boosted aura as tremendous.
• The series repeatedly ties the sword's performance, including sharpness funnily, to sacred power.

TotK is the most recent obvious example: the Master Sword gets not just stronger but sharper from being bathed in sacred power. WW and SS also have the sword's raw power and evil-countering role improve as the blade is restored / empowered.

So no, this isn't vibes.

What's vibes is your entire argument:

• "the Golden Sword's anti-evil function stayed exactly equal to the base Master Sword, and only the physical edge/AP changed".

Where is that stated? Why would you even think that? They literally emphasize otherwise?

You keep acting like that restriction is the default, but it isn't.

Spoiler: Fairy magic, aura, Spin Attack, and the ALBW cap

that's not very different from me claiming that the great fairy could have gotten stronger in the dark world so she gave a super powerful amp compared to other great fairies who are usually way below a single piece of triforce.

Not even close dude, don't compare those like they're equal, it's a bit insulting even.
My point is based on what the sword is and what the actual upgrade text says.

Your point is straight up headcanon conjecture that an offscreen fairy power jump to can close an otherwise absurdly dead scaling gap.

These are not remotely the same.

I am saying:

• "A magically upgraded Master Sword via fairy magic with new tremendous aura has better sacred / evil-countering interaction than its weaker state which lacked those".

You were saying:

• "Maybe the fairy adapted to the Dark World and became strong enough to give a Triforce-bridging amp."

One is based on the item and its upgrade context.

The other is objectively nothing but headcanon.
Do not act as if they're even remotely comparable things.

I prefer you telling me: "yeah the sword was meant to cut ganon, since there are several statement of the edge of the sword being sharper, no single evidence of it having any stronger anti-evil property, but I see it as outlier because this and this", and see if others would agree or not,

No. That framing is still you trying to worm your conclusion into the very question at hand.

You're trying to force me to accept:

• "it only got sharper, no sacred function improved"

before the point is even debated.

I don't accept that premise dude, as the evidence does not force that premise.

Again:

• magical blade
• ancient fairy magic
• strongest Master Sword
• tremendous aura
• sacred evil-countering weapon

That alone is already sufficient to reject "only mundane sharpness changed".

My position is:

• The Golden Sword is the upgraded Master Sword.
• It is magical.
• It is stronger.
• It has stronger aura context.
• It can affect / open / stun / weaken Ganon better than lesser sword states.
• It may be physically sharper too, depending on which wording we're using.

But none of that proves full-Triforce raw AP.

That is my actual position.

Not:

• "Golden Sword useless".

Not:

• "Golden Sword non-canon".

Not:

• "Golden Sword same as base Master Sword".

And also not your forced version:

• "Golden Sword is only sharper, but if it affects Ganon, so it must be AP".

but trying to say "Oh, but in the game itself it's not like the sword really does anything except anti-evil property stun that the basic master sword should be able to do" makes the whole concept, idea of golden master sword basically meaningless and without any logical sense.

No it doesn't.

A stronger version of the Master Sword doing the same general sacred weapon job better is not meaningless. That's like, literally the plot of what, two whole games? Three maybe?
Literally what an upgrade is, you just don't like what the upgrade entails.

The base Master Sword can interact with Ganon to some extent.
The Golden Sword is better at that interaction.
That can mean:

• better sacred interaction
• better suppression
• better stun/opening
• better ability to make Ganon vulnerable
• better performance against evil targets

without meaning:

• raw AP equal to the complete Triforce.

It's you who's pretending the upgrade is meaningless unless it gives full-Triforce AP.
That ain't my problem.

Your version is the one that breaks the fight logic:

• Golden Sword supposedly physically cuts through full-Triforce Ganon's durability.
• But Silver Arrows are still mandatory.
• Ganon still cannot be killed by sword hits alone.
• Yet every official wording explicitly frames it as stun/vulnerability exploitation after the fact.
• And ALBW later has an arguably stronger Golden Sword + ToC + Light Arrows still dealing with a two-piece Yuganon as a major threat.

That is makes no goddamn sense? You realize your sharper sword shit, even ignoring it's English only, is from the game where the Golden Master Sword IS WEAKER THAN TWO PIECES LET ALONE THE FULL THING.
Golden Sword opens / weakens / stuns / makes vulnerable.
Silver Arrows kill.
End of.

And yes, I have read the great fairy giving it aura and ancient magic bla bla, of course the golden master sword stores more magical power and sharper blade,

Oh, so you're just arguing to argue? Then stop acting like the upgrade is "just sharper".

You literally just conceded the very parts that ruin your own framing.

More magical power.
Ancient / fairy magic.
Aura.
Stronger Master Sword.

That ain't a "mundane blade edge only".
So good job, you admit the Golden Sword stores more magic and has stronger aura context, your "same anti-evil property, only physical sharpness changed" claim needs proof now.

but having more magic or magical power doesn't really mean = more anti evil property,

For a random weapon? Sure.

For the Master Sword specifically? This is basically the premise of the weapon, you should know this from just playing a single Zelda game.
This is the Sword of Evil's Bane.

Its magical / sacred power is the thing that lets it function against evil in the first place.
When that specific weapon gets more magical power, stronger aura, and a stronger state, its evil-countering interaction improves.

And again, the series itself repeatedly ties sacred power to the blade's power/performance.

TotK outright says the Master Sword gets stronger from sacred power.
Botw does too actually, Deku Tree runs his mouth vehemently on it.
WW has the Master Sword's power to repel evil restored.
SS has the blade empowered and blessed into its final form to drive back demons.
And ironic as it may be, AlttP says ancient magic can enhance it.
So no, "more magic doesn't automatically mean more anti-evil" isn't enough here.

You need to prove the opposite restriction:

• same exact anti-evil function, only physical edge/AP changed.

especially because the fairy that boosts the sword is corrupted by the evil magic of ganon.

This doesn't prove what you need dude.

The result is still the Golden Sword.

• It is still an upgraded Master Sword.
• It is still magical.
• It is still created through fairy / ancient magic.
• It still functions against Ganon.

How the actual hell are you going from:

• "fairy is in the Dark World / affected by that context"

to:

• "therefore the sacred function did not improve, only physical cutting changed."

And if you want to make the fairy upgrade suspect because of Dark World corruption, then congratulations, that hurts your own full-Triforce AP claim even more.
That makes no goddamn sense man.

The fairy being affected by Ganon’s magic doesn't magically turn her own magic into Ganon’s magic, nor does it erase what the upgrade text says she does to the sword. That's a complete non sequitur.

• Link gets turned into a bunny by the Dark World too.
• Other people get transformed too.

That doesn't mean Link's own power becomes "Ganon magic", or that every item/magic source those people have is now invalidated. It just means the Dark World/Ganon's influence can affect people's forms. That's literally the basic mechanic of the realm.

And once again your argument remains baffling:
If your claim is that this fairy personally gives the Master Sword some full Triforce-tier amp, then why the hell is she failing to resist the passive Dark World/Ganon transformation effect in the first place? That proves the exact opposite: she is not personally on par with the full Triforce or Ganon's overarching Dark World influence. Her being affected by it is anti-scaling for her personal level, not evidence that the sword amp should be treated as full Triforce level.

But none of that changes the actual point:
the fairy still empowers/strengthens the blade. The text says the sword is upgraded. The text ties the upgrade to the fairy’s power/blessing. You don't get to ignore that just because Ganon's magic affected her body.

"At some point Ganon's magic affected the fairy's form" and "the fairy can still enhance the Master Sword's sacred power/hax" are not contradictory. One is about her being transformed by the Dark World/Ganon's influence. The other is about what she actually does to the sword with her own innate ancient magic.

So no, like it or not, this doesn't debunk the sacred/fairy amp. It only debunks the idea that the fairy herself scales to the full Triforce, which was already a ridiculous claim.

So, I do disagree with this implication that stronger aura, stronger magical power and sharpness is equal to more anti evil property making then the sword actually useful for this,

This is just making up a split the series itself literally goes out of its way to say otherwise.

The Master Sword's glow/aura/luster is repeatedly treated as the visible expression of its anti-evil function.

• BOTW does the same thing with the Trial of the Sword i forgot to add these above:
  • Great Deku Tree:
    "That sword you have reunited with... the Master Sword...it has yet to realize its true splendor".
  • Monk:
    "You presently lack the power necessary to wield the true splendor of the Master Sword..."
  • Monk:
    "Chosen hero of the Master Sword... Overcome the Trial of the Sword and claim the blade's true splendor!"
• After the trials, the objective log says:
  • "You now have the physical and mental strength necessary to use the Master Sword to its full potential."
• And after partial clears, Deku Tree literally says:
  • "The Master Sword you wield is now more powerful than before".
• So again, "true splendor" is not cosmetic. And if you don't know what that word means, it means the funny shiny glowy aura thing it does.
  It's the sword's power being awakened. The Master Sword becomes more powerful, and that same awakened/glowing state is the state used to combat the darkness.
  • BOTW item text:
    "Its blade gleams with a sacred luster that can oppose the Calamity".
  • BOTW Trial of the Sword item text:
    "A blade whose sacred glow can combat the Calamity".

So already, sacred luster/glow isn't an unrelated visual. The game flat out says the sacred luster/glow is what can oppose/combat the Calamity (i.e. evil).

• TOTK Decayed Master Sword:
  "The legendary sword that seals the darkness. Its sacred power has been diminished after being ravaged by the gloom beneath Hyrule Castle".
• TOTK restored Master Sword:
  "The legendary sword that seals the darkness. Its corruption was healed by its time with the Light Dragon. The blade gleams with a sacred luster that can oppose the Demon King".

So again, sacred power being diminished is why the sword is ruined, and its restored sacred luster is what lets it oppose the Demon King. Same shit, different wording.

• TOTK Deku Tree:
  "It can do more than heal. The sword will continue to gain strength if bathed in sacred power. The stronger that power, the more powerful the sword becomes".
• Zelda:
  "A sword...that grows ever stronger. The Master Sword".

So yes, more sacred power = more powerful Master Sword. That is not an inference. That is verbatim, they're directly linked.

Wind Waker makes the exact same point as well.

• Ganondorf:
  "You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil! What you hold is useless".

Then immediately:
"Its power is gone, and its edges are dull!"

So the "sparkle" is directly the power to repel evil. And the sword's lost power is tied to its dull edge. The game itself links glow/sparkle, power to repel evil, and the blade's edge. You don't get to pretend those are three unrelated stats because you need only one to be true so you can keep pushing your CRT.

• The King of Red Lions then says:
  "The fact that the Master Sword lost the power to repel evil suggests to me that something has happened to the sages who infused the blade with the gods' power".

And later:

• "Now that the Master Sword is once again blessed with the power to repel evil, you should be able to break through Ganon's Barrier and enter the tower!"

So the sword being blessed/infused with divine/god power is the same thing as the sword having the power to repel evil. Ain't "just sharpness". Not "just aura". This is the weapon's anti-evil property.

Skyward Sword also does this.

• Farore's Flame:
  "The flames of Farore have improved your sword, making it longer and sharp enough to do twice as much damage!"

So yes, sacred flame upgrade = improved sword = longer blade = sharper blade. The game isn't treating "sharpness" as some totally mundane blacksmith stat detached from sacred power. The sacred upgrade literally makes the sword sharper and stronger on top of its boosted anti-evil property.

Then later once again:

• Din's Flame:
  "The flames of Din have imbued your blade with a sacred white light that demons revile".
• And Zelda's blessing:
  "The goddess has blessed your blade, and the Master Sword has at last achieved its ultimate form! The sword is now imbued with the mythical power to drive back demons, and only Link may wield it!"

So the sword's upgrade path goes from sacred flames improving the blade's sharpness and damage, to sacred white light demons revile, to the mythical power to drive back demons. The series is directly tying physical blade improvement, sacred light, and anti-demon/anti-evil power together. And mind you, every step of this process affects the blade's physical properties, including, explicitly sharpness.

The sacred glow/luster is what opposes/combat the Calamity/Darkness. The Deku Tree says the sword has more splendor to awaken. The trial unlocks more of the Master Sword's power. The sword becomes more powerful. Skyward Sword says sacred flames can make the blade sharper and stronger. Wind Waker says the sparkle is the power to repel evil and directly ties lost power to dull edges.

Why in the world do you just randomly split "stronger sacred aura/magic/sharpness" away from "stronger anti-evil property" when the games repeatedly link those things as being directly connected.

For the Master Sword specifically:

• sacred glow/luster = anti-Calamity/anti-Demon King function
• sparkle = power to repel evil
• sacred power = makes the sword stronger
• sacred power = sharper/stronger blade
• lost evil-repelling power = duller edges

So no, it is not "just sharpness". It is not "just aura". It is not "just magic power".
The series uses those things as part of the sword's evil-repelling power. Trying to pretend they're unrelated is just ignoring the text because if you don't ignore, you no longer have an argument.

And your fairy point don't help either.

Great Fairy-linked sacredness isn't new, we know that's what their power qualifies as. Twilight Princess as but one of many examples has Great Fairy's Tears described as:

• "You got the Great Fairy's Tears! This sacred water contains the Great Fairy's prayers".

So a Great Fairy's prayers/water are explicitly sacred in nature. Acting like fairy power can't be sacred or holy is straight up ignorant.

And the "but the Dark World fairy was affected by Ganon's magic" point proves nothing except that Ganon's/Dark World's passive transformation effect can alter her form. Link gets turned into a bunny by the Dark World too. Other people are transformed too. That doesn't mean Link's own items, magic, soul, or power suddenly become "Ganon magic", or even "dark". In fact we're actually told he retains that valor, no, instead it means the Dark World affects people who enter it physically in body.

As above, if the fairy couldn't resist Ganon's passive Dark World influence, then she obviously isn't personally equal to Ganon's full Triforce-backed control over the Dark World, she can't even do what the Moon Pearl can ffs. So unfortunately, you can't use her as some personal full-Triforce source who randomly dumps a full Triforce amp into the sword.

1. The Master Sword is already the sacred blade of evil's bane.
2. Zelda repeatedly equates its sacred glow/luster/sparkle/blessing with its ability to repel/oppose evil.
3. TOTK explicitly says stronger sacred power makes the sword more powerful/sharper/etc. They're tied.
4. WW explicitly ties lost power to both lost evil-repelling sparkle and dull edges.
5. The Great Fairy upgrading the sword boosts the sword's power and explicitly does so via fairy magic. That boost applies to the Master Sword as the Master Sword, not as some unrelated mundane ******* kitchen knife edge.

Like it or not, "stronger aura/magic/sharpness" is not detached from the sword's anti-evil function. The games directly tie those things together over and over.

based on the game it's more clear that while having the same equal anti-evil property level, the golden master sword's stronger magical power and sharpness makes hurt ganon with normal attacks and not only spin attacks of classic MS.

You;re just asserting a split you need for your CRT to have any foundation.
"Same equal anti-evil property level" is not stated anywhere.
That's your assumption.

And worse, it's an assumption you need purely because if the Golden Sword's sacred/anti-evil function improved, your AP argument becomes something that you can't even argue as an outlier, let alone legit.

You are trying to separate:

• stronger aura
• stronger magic
• stronger Master Sword
• sharper blade
• better performance against evil

from:

• stronger evil-countering function

when Zelda repeatedly treats those things as connected for the Master Sword, and thinking on it, literally synonymous. Pray tell what you THINK "aura" means in that scan?

• BOTW: sacred luster/glow is what opposes/combat the Calamity.
• TOTK: sacred power being diminished is why the Master Sword is ruined, and the restored sacred luster is what lets it oppose the Demon King. Deku Tree then flat out says the sword grows stronger when bathed in sacred power.
• WW: Ganondorf directly links the sword's sparkle to the power to repel evil, then says its power is gone and its edges are dull.
• SS: sacred power literally improves the blade, make it sharper/stronger, and imbue it with sacred light demons revile.

You literally pick a game out of a hat, and 99% chance it'll give you the context you're trying to deny here.
You can't randomly split "sacred aura/magic/sharpness" away from "anti-evil function" like they're unrelated stats.
For the Master Sword, they are intrinsically THE SAME THING in context.

The glow/luster/sparkle isn't a lil aesthetic tweak.
The sharpness isn't just some mundane forged edge.
The sacred power is not some unrelated battery or whatever it is you meant with your "store more" point.
It's all part of the sword's evil-repelling function.

Also, "normal attacks and not only spin attacks"?
Man you just admitted the normal Master Sword can already interact with Ganon through its best application.
But, funny you mention "only spin attacks", because that point is not the AP-only win you think it is.

The Spin Attack is repeatedly framed as charging/focusing power into the sword via magic or its internal energy (which we know is sacred and holy, I pray I don't need to drop 100 statements saying the Master's Energy is what repels evil), not just some "normal physical slash but wider".

• ALttP: "You can focus power in the blade (hold the B Button). ...Then release it using the secret technique handed down by our people..."
• ALttP manual: "Hold down the B Button for about two seconds to focus your power in the blade. Once the sword is charged, you can release the B Button at any time to execute a spin attack"
• Ocarina of Time: "Hold (B) to charge your weapon! Release (B) to unleash a wave of energy with your spin!"
• "When you charge power for a Spin Attack, magic power will be consumed."
• Oracle of Ages manual: "Hold down the button to build up power in your sword's blade. Once the sword has powered up, release the energy in a spin attack"
• A Link to the Past & Four Swords GBA manual: "Press and hold the B Button to gather power in your sword, then release the button to unleash a powerful whirling attack..."
• Four Swords Adventures: "Hold the B Button to focus energy in your blade. Once it flashes twice, you can perform a feat known only to the greatest heroes"
• Hyrule Warriors: "Link raises his sword to the air, charging it with sacred power, before dashing forward with a series of wide Spin Attacks"

"only the Spin Attack" doesn't magically make the technique pure AP.

You're admitting the base Master Sword can affect Ganon through a charged/focused use of sword power. In ALttP itself, that power is stored in the sword and then released.

Meaning:

• Base Master Sword: needs charged/focused sword power to affect him properly.
• Golden Sword: stronger magical/aura-amped state applies that interaction more freely.

That proves Golden Sword > base Master Sword, but as many times before, it don't prove Golden Sword = full-Triforce AP.
Which is to say, while not always the case. Several games have the Spin Attack being a byproduct of focusing and charging the Master Sword's sacred energy into a more powerful blow. Not all them mind you, but a few are explicitly that. I have some Jap scans for OoT/MM in particular but that's besides the point.

So what is the Golden Sword doing you ask?
Applying that same sacred Master Sword interaction better.

Which is literally my point.
Base Master Sword can affect him under stricter conditions.
Golden Sword, being stronger/aura-amped/magically upgraded, affects him more easily.

That proves Golden Sword > base Master Sword.

Yet it still doesn't prove Golden Sword = full-Triforce AP.

Given "can affect Ganon better than the base Master Sword" is not the same claim as "AP scales to the complete Triforce".

And the sequel context murders that anyway.
Why have we gone the whole thread with you dodging the very, very blatant issue at play?

ALBW has the strongest Master Sword / Lv3 sword (it's the game with the glaze statements even), Light Arrows, and the Triforce of Courage involved, and two-piece Yuganon is still treated as a real threat.

Straight up actively disproves the Golden Sword/Lv3 Master Sword is secretly full-Triforce AP by itself.

• It is not above or equal or even CLOSE to the complete Triforce
• It is not above two-piece Yuganon in the way your scaling needs (as in whole infinities)
• It is not stronger than even the ToC

The later game straight up says the upgraded Master Sword alone is insufficient as some full-Golden-Power AP beatstick.

• If the Golden Sword's effect is sacred interaction/hax/vulnerability creation, then it doesn't scale to full-Triforce AP.
• If you try to force it into pure physical AP, then ALBW immediately shows the upgraded Master Sword still isn't enough to trivialize a two-piece Triforce enemy.

Either way, "it hits Ganon with normal attacks now" only proves the upgraded Master Sword performs better than the weaker Master Sword.

That is it.

And "same anti-evil property level" is not evidence. That's just you slapping on an unstated restriction onto the sword because you need the interaction to be physical AP exclusively.

The anti-evil property is basically the same, nothing points out golden ms being more effective with his anti-evil property.

Tough luck dude, this is complete conjecture.

Nothing says the anti-evil property is "basically the same". That's your restriction, not the game's.

And it's even worse because the "sharpness" line you're hiding behind on is from ALBW anyway, the very game that guts whatever point you could have had from every angle.

If ALBW's Golden/Lv3 Master Sword is your comparison point, then cool, that same game shows it
does not scale to full-Triforce Ganon. It doesn't even scale over two-piece Yuganon, and Link outright needs the Triforce of Courage to compete with him, he explicitly can not without it. So even your own "sharpness" line doesn't work as evidence, it doesn't even get you above a single piece.

And if you want to hide behind "the sword is sharper", the sharpness wording is NA-only. The Japanese text never reduces the upgrade to "physical edge got sharper, AP only". It says the sword is tempered / made stronger, and the Lv3 text specifically emphasizes that its aura (holy slop) is tremendous.

Not:

• "same anti-evil property, only physical sharpness changed"

The raw lane is:

• "stronger Master Sword, tremendous splendor"

Meaning yes, it very much points toward the sword's sacred/evil-countering function being boosted.

And if you try to separate ALBW from ALttP, then you get even less.
And the worst part? Your argument needs two contradictory things at once.
You need (NA) ALBW as that's where the "sharpness" wording comes from.
But ALBW is also the game that explicitly caps the Golden/Lv3 Master Sword below the scaling you need.
Either ALttP Golden Sword and ALBW Lv3 Master Sword are functionally comparable upgraded Golden Master Sword states, in which case ALBW's own scaling caps your full-Triforce argument in the back.
Or they are not comparable, in which case you lose the ALBW sharpness argument entirely, and ALttP is just a fairy-magic amp from a fairy who blatantly is not full-Triforce level.

So pick one.

• If they're comparable, the upgraded Golden Sword still doesn't scale to full Triforce because ALBW itself proves it doesn't.
• If they aren't comparable, then your "sharpness only" argument doesn't even apply to ALttP, and the ALttP upgrade foundation is magical / fairy-based, not some pure mundane AP edge which just makes it being AP only somehow even less likely.

There is no version where this helps you.

You're either wrong, or you're using the wrong game to make yourself even more wrong.

Spoiler: Consensus and evals

Feel free to use your influence or anything to make it a rule, call all the staff you want, It doesn't really matter to me, would only show a bias and preference towards users if that really happens,

"My influence"?
You mean making an actual detailed, sourced thread and then people agreeing with it because the argument is better?

That's not "influence". That's called proving the point.

If people look at the evidence and go "yeah, this CRT is messy / wrong / needs a rule", that ain't bias. That's the discussion working as intended lad.

And mind you, people were already disagreeing with this before I even showed up. Staff included. Per your own earlier point, "basically everyone disagrees with me for entirely different reasons".

That is not a good thing for you.

That means there are so many problems with the CRT that multiple people can come in from completely different angles and still end at "yeah this is sus as hell".

Also, what exactly is wrong with getting staff to evaluate this? Do you enjoy repeating the same loop for 20 pages? Because you still haven't proven the core claim.

• You still haven't bridged Golden Sword to full-Triforce AP.
• You still haven't dealt with ALBW as a concept.
• You still haven't proven "same anti-evil property, only physical AP changed".
• You still haven't proven random Agahnim fraction scaling.
• You still haven't made Light Arrow / stun interactions automatically equal AP.

Caling staff evaluation wouldn't be "bias". It would be exactly what should happen when a thread turns into circular bickering around points that already got answered ages ago.

because this thread is being useful, especially because there isn't a current consensous regarding if Ganon has the full triforce or not in the final fight,

There is a current accepted profile position. You or he disagreeing with it doesn't mean there's "no consensus".

One person being uncertain or disagreeing doesn't erase the fact the accepted thread already happened and the result is already on the profile. If someone wants to overturn that, fine, make the actual CRT for that specific subject.

Post the scans.
Post the arguments.
Post the context.
Let people evaluate that directly.

But stop using "well maybe Ganon doesn't even have the full Triforce" as an excuse in this thread when your OP is supposed to prove scaling from the Golden Sword / Link. Huge issue there.

If this thread depends on reopening "does Ganon even have the full Triforce in the final fight?", then this thread is utterly unfocused.

That needs its own CRT, not random mid-thread uncertainty being used to keep your thread open so you can argue stuff completely unrelated to that.

even if the wiki will go with the outlier argument it's still something that should be addressed.

It has been addressed.
That's why the profile is the way it is.

And if it needs to be addressed again, this thread sure as hell ain't the place to do it, given this OP is already all over the place trying to juggle Golden Sword, full Triforce Ganon, Agahnim, Light Arrows, Twinmold, manuals, Blood Moons, Demise, Secret Stones, and whatever else gets thrown in whenever one point starts dying.

If you want to challenge the accepted Ganon / Triforce premise, make that its own thread.
If you want to argue Golden Sword scales to full-Triforce Ganon, prove that here.

But you gotta stop using one unresolved question that 99% of the thread and wiki as a whole actually does have a consensus on as cover for not proving your actual CRT.

Spoiler: Light Arrows, Twinmold, consistency

because I used what was already accepted and proposed something almost identical, thinking that since one chain based on certain logic is currently accepted then logically mine should too.

That's not how this works.

"Something similar is currently accepted" isn't proof the logic is good.

It just means either:

1. that old chain has context you're leaving out, or
2. that old chain is also bad and needs to be fixed.

Neither one helps.

If the Majora/Twinmold/Light Arrow chain is genuinely just:

• "Light Arrows stun X, therefore AP scales"

then yeah, that should be checked too.
Fortunately that isn't the case, but that's not the thread for that.
But you don't just go:

• "I think bad logic exists somewhere else, so this should be accepted too".

That's not consistency? That's spreading the problem.

But, congrats, at least you are now admitting current scaling isn't good,

Don't twist what I said. I said if that specific chain relies on the same "stun/weakness interaction = AP" logic, then that specific step sounds bad and should be evaluated.

That is not me saying every Majora chain is bad.
That is not me saying Light Arrows have no AP in every context.
That is not me saying Twinmold can't scale through other evidence.
That is not me conceding your Golden Sword point.

It means the method needs to be checked, I never once said you were correct, in fact if you go back to read it you would notice I said that there's actually reasons for that chain to have some specific backing, what I did say on the other hand was that there's even more reasons not yet on profile to further justify it.

But all the same, a hax/stun/holy weakness interaction doesn't mean automatically that raw AP is the cause just because the wiki currently has a similar-looking chain somewhere when you ignore all the nuance.

I want a consistent method, that's my goal.

Judge each scene by what the interaction actually is.

If the context shows AP, use AP.
If the context shows stun, sealing, evil weakness, vulnerability creation, barrier breaking, or holy hax, or some other hax-like slop, don't pretend it's raw AP just because it affects the target.

That applies to Light Arrows.
That applies to Golden Sword.
That applies to Silver Arrows.
That applies to everything.

What you want isn't consistency. You want to use a possibly questionable accepted chain as an excuse for this one.

That isn't a method. That's just more of the irrelevant whataboutisms.

If the chain scaling from majora gets removed, I'll finally see some consistency and I won't try to use the same argument as one established as factual currently in the wiki.

Then make or support a separate thread for that?

If the Majora chain is bad, remove it.

I have zero issue if you make a thread for that (that's actually not true though, I have an even bigger problem with that than I do this one... but you get what I mean).

But this thread isn't "fix every Zelda chain ever". Goddamn could you imagine? Get some calcs out first then maybe we can start that project. What this actually is, is your CRT, and your CRT still has to prove itself.

Current acceptance is not a substitute for evidence.
"Something else might be wrong too" is not a defense.
And "I'll stop using this argument if the other thing gets removed" basically admits you're not defending the logic because it's actually good. You're defending it because it's convenient and you'd rather hinge on something you don't even believe just to try to get away with your logic nobody agrees with.

If the Light Arrow chain is bad, fix the Light Arrow chain.
If the Golden Sword chain is bad, reject the Golden Sword chain.
Do not use one questionable chain to force another questionable chain through.

Spoiler: UES/Manual

It was useful to bring it, because our method should be the same and we should be following UES guideline, or not?

Not really? Mostly because there is no UES argument here.

Please do not pull the magic words "UES guideline" like it means every holy/stun/weakness interaction into AP.

That is not how the verse works, and it sure as hell isn't how the page works.

The actual UES standards say:

• for even a Limited Energy System, the powers need to draw from the same source and use a similar amount of power, or show the user can invest similar amounts into the techniques.
• For a Non-physical Energy System, it needs reliable statements or showings that the supernatural powers scale to each other in AP.
• For a Universal Energy System, it needs even more: evidence that the character can channel that power through their own body in a way that quantifiably enhances physical stats.

Where is that here?

• Golden Sword stunning/opening Ganon is not a verse-wide UES.
• Light Arrows stunning/weakening evil targets is not a verse-wide UES.
• Silver Arrows being a specific kill condition is not a verse-wide UES.
• Sacred weapons and holy arrows interacting with evil targets is not "same energy system = AP scaling".

That's hax / weakness interaction / sacred effect unless the scene actually proves AP.

The guidelines even have a whole external weapon section saying feats using a magical weapon are usually attributed to the weapon, and whether it becomes an energy system for a Character + Weapon pair is case-by-case.

And the page notes hax potency or resistance often do not scale.

How does UES help you when you haven't even proven it's one to begin with?

Honestly, the current UES wording is bad for you as it demands actual proof instead of this "well one magical thing affected one evil thing, so AP chain" mess.

And we literally just had a recent UES standards thread about this exact type of abuse: people treating "same kind of energy" as enough to scale stats when it isn't.

Same source is not enough.
Same category is not enough.
Holy/sacred interaction is not enough.
Stun is not enough.
Weakness exploitation is not enough.
You need context proving AP.

That is the consistent method you claimed you wanted.

So yes, we should follow UES guidelines. But that's precisely why your argument fails.

For Aganhim being empowerd by triforce, I just go with the manual, which u all take as unreliable and that's pretty much it, I used the words personal opinion not because I think so out of vibe, but I do see a manual out in that year as valuable to get info on a game.

You mean the NA-only manual?
The same localized manual that starts adding weird shit like the gods coming from a distant nebula, while the Japanese lore is just the actual Three Golden Goddesses creation myth that the series kept using later?

Yeah, no.

Calling that "unreliable" is being generous. A 1991/1992 localized manual adding extra flair that either never stayed, got contradicted, or just isn't in the Japanese text isn't reliable lore just because it came out near the game.

And this is the same problem you keep having, like there's a pattern here:
You keep taking old/outdated/localized context when it helps you, then acting like later or Japanese material doesn't matter when it guts the point.

• 2017 Blood Moon context over TOTK.
• NA manual fluff over JP manual lore.
• English sharpness wording over Japanese aura wording.

Same pattern every time, this gotta be the Nintendo CRT curse at this point.

And even if I humored the manual for a second, this still doesn't get you the scaling you want.

"Agahnim is connected to / empowered by / backed by Ganon or the Triforce's evil power" is not the same as:

• Agahnim gets a quantifiable amp.
• Agahnim gets single-piece Triforce level power.
• Agahnim gets a relevant fraction of the complete Triforce.
• Link beating Agahnim scales to full Triforce (this is blatantly not true, Agahnim is explicitly far weaker than Ganon, if he's weaker then by default he can't be scaling to the same amount).

Those are all extra steps you still have to prove.

You don't go:

• "manual says something vaguely Triforce-related"

then:

• "Agahnim should be at least one-piece level"

That is the vibes part.

Not "manuals can never matter", they do, honestly I've been using a few myself, albeit the actual Japanese ones but still.

The random fraction scaling is the main issue.

If the Japanese manual and later consistent lore don't support the NA-only wording, then the NA-only wording is weak as hell.

And even if accepted as flavor, it still doesn't prove the specific AP scaling jump you're trying to make.

I am free to make it evaluated in the wiki, I can propose the guide and see if it gets accepted and I can personally believe in it, it is a right of mine, I didn't break any rule.

Not how this works actually.

You're free to personally believe whatever you want however suspect it might be.

Unfortunately, you actually aren't free to push NA-only manual yap as valid canon evidence without satisfying the site's canonicity standards first.

The Canon page literally says that:

• "With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages, with non-canon material to be ignored"

It also says:

• "The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise"

And when source material conflicts:

• "When different source materials give different versions of the same feat... the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon".

It also says databooks are secondary canon and evaluated case-by-case.

It may suck but, "it was a manual from that year" is gonna need some extra steps first.

Especially not for an NA localization/manual with extra lore that is absent from the Japanese (primary) material, conflicts with later consistent Zelda lore, and includes made-up localization nonsense like the gods coming from a distant nebula.

You would need actual authority backing the specific claim.

Something like:

• dev team involvement
• authoritative Japanese-side lore material
• internal lore docs
• a statement that the manual's added lore was approved as canon
• something on the level of an actually sourced official lorebook like Hyrule Historia / Encyclopedia, if applicable

Not "Nintendo Power / NA manual said it, written by Steve, trust me".
Not a localized manual written by random NA staff adding flavor.
Not "well it came out around the game".

If the Japanese manual/game/later lore don't support the NA-only slop, then the NA-only stuff is the source that gets trashed, not the rest.

And this is extra odd mind you because nobody even said you couldn't just make a thread?
Ironic though, is that the thread would have to prove the source is usable first either way.

Like you can't use an NA-only manual statement, ignore the Japanese text and later lore, and act like people are breaking rules or having double standards by not accepting it.
The rule burden is on you.

If you have a hard statement like "yes, Shigeru / the Zelda dev team personally backed this manual's added lore and it reflects the intended canon", post it.

If you don't, then this is just non-authoritative localization slop trying to override primary/better canon that is way to frequent on forum.
And even if you personally want to believe it, keep that as personal belief, don't push it where it don't belong.

The wiki ain't required to index your personal belief when the source fails to adhere to our canonicity rules.

So the actual state of the thread currently:

• Calamity / Blood Moon is dead.
• Demise scaling to mummy Ganondorf is dead.
• Golden Sword being stronger than base Master Sword is fine.
• Golden Sword being magical/aura-amped/sacredly stronger is blatantly supported.
• Golden Sword scaling to full-Triforce AP is still not proven.
• ALBW actively makes any notion of scaling worse.
• Twinmold/Light Arrow whataboutism doesn't matter here.
• UES doesn't apply without proof.
• The NA manual doesn't bypass canon/source standards.

I would say unless the next reply actually closes the Golden Sword to full-Triforce AP gap without relying on "sharpness-only", random manual fraction scaling, or unrelated accepted chains, we should finish, but the fact that such proof hasn't been posted yet all but tells me it doesn't actually exist so there's little point in continuing.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

would say unless the next reply actually closes the Golden Sword to full-Triforce AP gap without relying on "sharpness-only", random manual fraction scaling, or unrelated accepted chains, we should finish, but the fact that such proof hasn't been posted yet all but tells me it doesn't actually exist so there's little point in continuing

I am checking these Japanese manuals. Let me know if they are reliable by wiki standards.

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past Guide : Taishubo Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Legend of Zelda Triforce of the Gods World Guidebookゼルダの伝説, 神々のトライフォース,...

archive.org

Kamigami No Triforce Nintendo Official Guidebook Vol.1-2 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Poor quality scan of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past guidebooks.

archive.org

 

[Chariot190]

I am checking these Japanese manuals. Let me know if they are reliable by wiki standards.

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past Guide : Taishubo Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Legend of Zelda Triforce of the Gods World Guidebookゼルダの伝説, 神々のトライフォース,...

archive.org

Kamigami No Triforce Nintendo Official Guidebook Vol.1-2 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Poor quality scan of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past guidebooks.

archive.org

Based on this though, yeah actually, one is. The second link is legit and likely usable as long as it stays consistent.
But anyway, I checked the Japanese guides you linked.
They don't give you what you need. If anything, they make the point worse.

For Agahnim, the Nintendo Official Guidebook only says his magic power has gone up and that he now uses clones.

Literally none of what you need, it's literally just "his magic is stronger and he has a new clone gimmick".

Anyway since the Shogakukan Nintendo Official Guidebook Vol. 1 & 2 got brought up, and it is, in fact, usable for canon and our profiles, at least by default.
I checked the relevant Ganon / Triforce / Agahnim / final weapon lines too.

Ganon is the one controlling / abusing the Triforce power:

• この闇の世界には, "黄金の力トライフォース" と呼ばれる絶大なる力の根源があって, それにふれたものは最強の力を持つ事ができるらしいのだ。今, そのトライフォースの力を操っているのは, 邪悪の王ガノン。その配下には, あの司祭アグニムがいた。
• In this Dark World, there is a source of overwhelming power called the "Golden Power, the Triforce", and it seems that one who touches it can possess the strongest power. Now, the one controlling that Triforce power is the evil king Ganon. Under him was that priest Agahnim.

Well, that supports Ganon being the one with/controlling the Triforce power (we really SHOULD put the scan on the profile). It doesn't say Agahnim gets a quantified fraction of it though. In fact it even bothers to mention him while pointing out it's Ganon who has it, not him.

Master Sword is framed as anti-evil / anti-Triforce-corrupting, not mundane AP

• トライフォースをかどわかす魔を撃退する, と伝えられている, マスターソードをも手に入れることに成功する。
• He also succeeds in obtaining the Master Sword, which is said to repel the evil/magic that would lead the Triforce astray.

Again, this is special evil-repelling slop. It's not "normal sword AP scales to the Golden Power". The Master Sword is being framed by what it does to evil/magic tied to the Triforce problem. Which before this gets confused, it isn't saying the Master Sword acts against the Triforce. It's what Dust says some posts ago, that the Master Sword is to stop those who would want to take it astray.

Agahnim is also not beaten by Link cutting him

• マスターソードを持ってしても, 司祭の体は切れない, 魔力を逆に利用しろ。
• Even with the Master Sword, you cannot cut the priest's body. Use his magic power in reverse.
• 白い光の玉を何かではねかえして攻撃せよ。
• Attack by reflecting the white balls of light with something.

This is actually ****** up chat, like man this one is actually kind of annoying
Gonna need to fact check it against other stuff later, but in a vacuum. Awful for Agahnim raw-scaling. The guide outright says even with the Master Sword, Link can't cut Agahnim's body, and the answer is to reverse/reflect his magic (other stuff directly ties that to hax, with the Master Sword's magic deflection ability, and also bug nets having that ability too per a few sources for memes). So no, beating Agahnim even if he WERE scaling to a fraction of the Triforce isn't Link's raw AP scaling to Agahnim's magic, let alone to some random Triforce fraction. It's hax ability stuff.
Honestly that's messed up, that Agahnim even without all that is still physically above the default Master Sword output but hell, and you can only imagine what that'd mean for "the strongest power" Ganon, right?

Final Ganon is like entirely special-condition framing

• リンクは, 最後の力をふりしぼって, ガノンとの戦いに挑んだ。矢とマスターソードで, そして今までリンクが通り抜けてきた神殿で使われたすべての力を必要とする。
• Link gathers his last strength and challenges Ganon. With arrows and the Master Sword, and with all the power used in the temples Link has passed through up to now, everything is needed.

Meaning, the guide ain't saying "Golden Sword AP alone scales to Ganon". It frames the final fight as requiring the Master Sword, arrows, and everything Link has gained (for example the cape, damage negation, stuff to undo the darkness, etc. going by the pages A>B>C). It's a hyper conditional fight, not parity.

The guide explicitly says to remember Ganon's weakness

• ガノンの弱点を思い出すのだ。
• Remember Ganon's weakness.

Again, weakness interaction. You're exploting his vulnerability to sacred magic.

Sacred stuff is relevant to special kill-condition stuff

• 太った女神の言葉を思い出して, 最後にパワーアップした武器を使ってみよう。聖なる力を秘めた武器なら, ガノンの息の根を止めることができるかもしれない。
• Remember the words of the fat goddess, and try using the weapon that was powered up last. If it is a weapon containing sacred power, it may be able to stop Ganon's life/breath.

Either way, it helps the sacred/special weapon stuff, not the raw AP lane.

Silver Arrows are the actual chance/finisher after Ganon is made vulnerable.

• ガノンの体の色が変わり, 動きが止まったときがチャンスだ。銀の矢を放て。
• When Ganon's body color changes and his movement stops, that is your chance. Fire the Silver Arrows.

Literally what I've been saying:

• Ganon has a weakness.
• Exploit weakness.
• Sacred caveatsare mentioned throughout the book for him.
• His body color changes.
• His movement stops.
• Then fire the Silver Arrows.

The Q&A hints also frame it as powered-up but not really in the way you're suggesting, plus stopped movement

• 女神には会ったか。女神に, ある武器をパワーアップしてもらったか。ガノンを攻撃してみたか。ガノンの動きが止まったときに, ほかの武器で攻撃してみたか。
• Have you met the goddess? Did you have a certain weapon powered up by the goddess? Have you tried attacking Ganon? When Ganon's movement stopped, did you try attacking with another weapon?

Again, not "slap his ass hard enough with AP". It's a specific sequence: goddess-powered weapon, attack Ganon, wait until his movement stops, then hax him out.

The guide really doesn't do anything here for you.

• Ganon controls/abuses the Triforce power.
• Agahnim is under him, not given a quantified Triforce fraction.
• Agahnim can't simply be cut even with the Master Sword; you reverse his magic (which honestly has some absurd implications for Ganon himself).
• The Master Sword is framed around repelling evil/magic.
• Final Ganon is explicitly weakness/special condition-based.
• A sacred-power weapon is needed.
• Ganon's body changes and his movement stops (and that's it).
  

These guides if anything simply support the opposite.

 

[Dust_Collector]

This is actually ****** up chat, like man this one is actually kind of annoying
Gonna need to fact check it against other stuff later,

Just doubled checked the game itself to make sure it did 100% line up with the guide statements, the same thing about not being able to harm Agahnim is there too and in the boss fight sword beams do not hurt him, direct strikes as stated don't work but even more whacky is that Link himself get's hurt if he tries hitting him with the sword (This specific shock effect doesn't even happen if he gets hit with Agahnims lightning blast).

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I checked and I was already aware about aganhim cannot be hurt by Ms. Good that my input helped to find a canonical source that confirms Ganon was using Triforce all the time. @Theglassman12 see, you got one.

But, the thing that link cannot cut aganhim with normal Ms has an ehm but actually. The guide says that Sword level 3 will make you cut enemies you couldn't cut before.

Idk if it actually convinces me that aganhim not being affected by sword attacks at all implies That Ganon who is actually effected by them in game play somehow doesn't get any damage at all, to me it seems more like they are far above classic ms and upgraded versions make what the ms couldn't do possible.

But we should check which monster the guide is taking about, I am referring to the image with colored swords, there it says that level 3 (the one before golden master sword, the red one) makes u able to cut monsters you couldn't. Which one besides aganhim cannot be hurt by Ms? This might imply a huge upscale for other monsters above the likes of vaati, lmao.

 

[Chariot190]

I really can't be assed to reply to that in detail but tldr it's Lynel but that doesn't really matter much for greater scaling. Have to be careful with scaling fodder after all.

And no, you can have Lv3/4 MS in Agahnim 2 and it still doesn't work, so there's no "MS not working doesn't mean LV3 wouldn't, and maybe Lv3 could cut Agahnim, so it cutting Ganon is also fine". Of course, he's actually way stronger in that fight than he was in the first, but he's still below Ganon.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I really can't be assed to reply to that in detail but tldr it's Lynel but that doesn't really matter much for greater scaling. Have to be careful with scaling fodder after all.

And no, you can have Lv3/4 MS in Agahnim 2 and it still doesn't work, so there's no "MS not working doesn't mean LV3 wouldn't, and maybe Lv3 could cut Agahnim, so it cutting Ganon is also fine". Of course, he's actually way stronger in that fight than he was in the first, but he's still below Ganon.

That's the thing, isn't golden sword reserved for Ganon as a final battle and after aganhim 2? Lore - wise I mean, I know game play wise u can get it earlier. Also, are we completely taking out the thing that we got a "Possibly" as an option for our ratings? Now we got confirmation Ganon was using Triforce in the final fight, we could rate alttp link as "possibly 3-A", I am not even arguing for a likely, possibly could be worthy to consider.
And then move on revisioning Malladus statement about the entire world destruction and twinmold chain scaling in an other thread.

Even though I am still skeptical about ignoring the dragons, since the stone gem is called a multiplier so I still think we could get higher rating for Hylia based on that, but whatever.

I am convinced about the blood moon stuff, and my current position on alttp is a possibly rating, and adding the notion that Ganon had full Triforce in the entire game. Plus I wonder if chain scaling from aganhim could get us an higher tier if the new rule revision about giving next tier when there is huge gap gets accepted (or if we could upscale swords from Malladus).

 

[Lonkitt]

Whatever thoughts I had about this thread, Chariot pretty much just said way better and added way more

I agree with Chariot here

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I still don't completely get this. Aganhim not being harmed by classic MS doesn't mean much, it's the same as The imprisoner not being defeatable with classic MS, and then True MS defeats Demise. Actually it proves the opposite, if they wanted to have Ganon immune to Golden MS they could have done the same thing with Link taking damage instead plus the other things. I've seen before other game guides being used, and the developers note used the term damage/hurt regarding Ganon, when they could have spelled weaken, stun etc. Also, I still have no clear when we get MS and light arrows scaling and when we consider the damage only caused by sacred power / anti evil property. Like, ok TP ToC + MS is physically on ganondorf ToP + sage sword striking and ap level, but why we scale swords from vaati and we don't say oh he goes hurt cuz hax, he is an evil being yk etc. Also, Majora can get hurt by light arrows (according to encyclopedia, his last form btw, it's canon), but they only scale to twinmold? Our method is currently so messed up honestly. Sometimes gameplay is used, other times no we cannot say that alttp link can tank or harm ganon even though this happens in gameplay because *let's make up Link just dodges and becomes invulnerable all the time in a several days fight when he was pretty low magic stamina", let's ask me to constistantly prove things, but then in other threads let's justify all with occam's razor for giant Link scaling to 4 giants when there isn't a proper scaling, it's a huge assumption, my supposed assumptions were more implied, like dragons being above stone gem users as dragonification being the last step towards using that same power, but fine whatever. Golden MS hurts only because anti-evil, but light arrows with same property somehow got an ap rating not only hax one, and i am proposing a possibly rating when gameplay and developers note kinda support the likely idea that the sword injured ganon and that red mail can tank his blows. "But yuganon" ok scale yuganon to 3-A as well but lower value. that's literally as it usually works, we have several entities and characters being waaaay above others still in the same tier.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I cannot believe I just saw the words "scale Yuganon to 3-A as well"

 

[Chariot190]

I still don't completely get this. Aganhim not being harmed by classic MS doesn't mean much, it's the same as The imprisoner not being defeatable with classic MS, and then True MS defeats Demise.

You're missing the actual point.

Base Agahnim is immune to the Master Sword.
Agahnim 2 is still immune to the Golden Sword.
And Agahnim 2 is still infinitely weaker than Ganon in terms of output/power.

That outright tells us the sword affecting Ganon at the end has nothing to do with "Golden Sword raw power output is now high enough".

If this was just power output, then the Golden Sword would still work on the far weaker Agahnim 2.
It does not.

So the logic ain't:

• Master Sword too weak for Agahnim > Golden Sword strong enough for Ganon.

The logic is:

• Agahnim is not vulnerable to it in the same way > Ganon is.

Ganon is the king of darkness. He isn't just "stronger Agahnim" well actually technically he is but you know what I mean He's the kind of evil sacred anti-evil power is made to **** up, and it does, it's bro's Kryptonite.

Actually it proves the opposite, if they wanted to have Ganon immune to Golden MS they could have done the same thing with Link taking damage instead plus the other things.

This is acting like there are only two possible options:

• the sword bounces off, so no scaling
• the sword works, so full AP scaling

That isn't how Zelda works.

There's an obvious middle option here:

• sacred weapon affects / stuns / freezes / opens / weakens the most evil mf in the world because that evil being is specifically weak to sacred power atop that.

Not raw AP parity.

Agahnim 2 makes this even more obvious. He's weaker than Ganon and still immune to the Golden Sword. So the difference can't just be "Golden Sword has enough power now".

There's obviously a caveat to this. And that difference is target interaction.

Ganon is more vulnerable to sacred anti-evil power, not less, he's more deeply tied to darkness and evil, especially when the game first came out, just read some of those guides, he may be the strongest, but he's also the most vulnerable. Levels out.
This is also seen through the series too btw.

The more evil / demonic / darkness-tied the target is, the more screwed they are by sacred power.

BotW makes this very obvious with gameplay integration too: the Master Sword powers up around Ganon's influence / Malice / Gloom-level evil. It doesn't do that for some random Yiga member or Bokoblin.

"Ganon is stronger than Agahnim" doesn't mean anything, yeah, Ganon is stronger, which is also why we know the Golden Sword effecting him isn't a power thing. He's also far more directly vulnerable to sacred anti-evil power.

I've seen before other game guides being used, and the developers note used the term damage/hurt regarding Ganon, when they could have spelled weaken, stun etc.

First, no, that's not "game guides" plural.
It's a game dev concept / boss progression note.

And the funny part is that once the game was finalized, in actual guides, books, and official descriptions afterward, they did spell it out. Plural. I even posted some already in this thread.

Over and over, the later material says the sword stuns him, freezes him, or makes him vulnerable.

• Not hurts.
• Not damages.
• Not wounds.
• Not "Link physically overpowers full Triforce Ganon with the Golden Sword".

Using one early concept-art style wording which isn't even about the lore but rather about game boss progression and phase changes, against 10+ later finalized guides / sites saying stun, freeze, or vulnerability is backwards.

The finalized wording supports my point, not yours.

The Golden Sword matters.

• It sets Ganon up.
• It creates the opening.
• It does not prove raw full-Triforce AP.

Also, I still have no clear when we get MS and light arrows scaling and when we consider the damage only caused by sacred power / anti evil property.

This ain't hard, mostly for the fact I already explained it.

If Link physically guts someone, pierces them, cuts them down, breaks through their actual durability, or the scene / statement treats it as direct combat force (like Ganon and Link matching each other physically in TP or the TOTK MS being stated to be the only thing to gouge out the Demon Dragon's scales), that's AP.

If the sword makes them shrink back, stun, freeze, recoil, weaken, lose protection, repel magic, or become vulnerable, that's hax / weakness exploitation unless extra evidence says otherwise.

Most Master Sword scaling isn't just "it did gameplay chip damage". The games and books have statements too ya know, lots of them in fact.

Take the reason why its average default is 6-C. If a sword is stated stronger than a prior sword, and that prior sword is stated stronger than another known sword, then that's a statement chain. That's not the same thing as "it affected an evil dude in gameplay, so full AP". There's also stuff like Master Sword > other stuff with feats but alas.

It's honestly quite simple:

• direct feat = AP
• direct statement = AP
• direct scaling statement = AP
• stun / freeze / weakness / opening = hax unless context says more

Golden Sword vs ALttP Ganon is in the stun / freeze / vulnerability lane.

Not the "raw output equals full Triforce" one.

Like, ok TP ToC + MS is physically on ganondorf ToP + sage sword striking and ap level, but why we scale swords from vaati and we don't say oh he goes hurt cuz hax, he is an evil being yk etc.

Because we aren't scaling those swords just because of vague gameplay damage? We scale them because the guide material gives actual sword-to-sword statements.

If Sword A is stated stronger than Sword B, and Sword B is stated stronger than the sword tied to Vaati shit and is moreover stated as strong, or stronger, than Vaati's magic, then yeah, that would be a scaling chain.

That's not the same thing as saying:

• "Golden Sword stuns / freezes / creates vulnerability on Ganon, so the Golden Sword raw-scales to the full Triforce"

Incomparably different arguments.

Stop acting like every Zelda sword rating comes from basic in-game damage. The games have dialogue. The books have statements. The profiles use those statements.

The problem here isn't "sacred swords can never scale".

The problem is

• "this specific Golden Sword > full Triforce leap is not shown and is actively shot down by how the fight is described"

Also, Majora can get hurt by light arrows (according to encyclopedia, his last form btw, it's canon), but they only scale to twinmold?

Majora is its own mess, and would be exactly why gameplay alone is not enough.

You can hurt Majora with Deku Link and normal Link in gameplay.

But the actual story says nothing Link has can go against Majora, that it is impossible. Skull Kid with the mask is immune to Link's stuff even if you want to go by gameplay.


The whole plot is built around Majora being beyond Link's normal means, with the moon drop explicitly killing Link while Majora is fine. As in Majora is utterly unfazed by something so far beyond Link's capabilities his ass is vaporized and it just chuckles.

Historia also says Link fought it with Fierce Deity, which lines up with the actual story logic, statements, and so forth. There is no "maybe he did or didn't", we know what canonically went down.

Using base gameplay hits on Majora as lore scaling is like saying Yamcha can fight Beerus because a game lets him do it.

Twinmold is different because Link uses both the Giant's Mask and Light Arrows there. Especially in 3D.

Ganon in OoT is different because Link canonically uses Light Arrows there too.

"Majora can be hit by random 9-B gameplay options" doesn't help dude, it just shows the major problem with how you go about doing this. Stop taking things in a vacuum if there's more context at play.

Our method is currently so messed up honestly. Sometimes gameplay is used,

The method isn't, the problem is 99% of our profiles bar like classic Dorf are outdated or in heavy need of more scans, yes. But that's a project to be done, nothing that effects this CRT.

But all the same, not for the reasons you're giving here.

Gameplay is used when backed by context, lore, statements, or the actual required / canon method (FD with Majora, or even just something like pushing a block that you have to in order to continue the game, not bashing the Calamity in with a laddle).

Even using gameplay for ALttP Ganon doesn't help you however, because you can never kill him with the Golden Sword.

The sword can set him up for the Silver Arrows, which are still mandatory, but he will never die.

So even the gameplay says "special opening + sacred finisher", not "Golden Sword raw AP killed full Triforce Ganon".

other times no we cannot say that alttp link can tank or harm ganon even though this happens in gameplay because *let's make up Link just dodges and becomes invulnerable all the time in a several days fight when he was pretty low magic stamina",

Nobody needs to make up that Link dodged everything given the guide you linked says Link avoided Ganon's powers and killed him.

We're also told Link used everything he obtained, which includes things like the Magic Cape.

So no, "Link must have eaten Ganon's full power to the face for days" ain't the default assumption here, in fact the material itself pushes the opposite: Link avoided Ganon's powers and used his whole kit.

And even then, he still could not kill Ganon with the sword. He needed Silver Arrows.

let's ask me to constistantly prove things, but then in other threads let's justify all with occam's razor for giant Link scaling to 4 giants when there isn't a proper scaling, it's a huge assumption,

Giant Link is way more direct than this, even more to it then below, but that's for another time.

He only scales with the Giant's Mask. A mask that is stated to contain the power of a giant, and just for the record, the only times that specific japan phrasing is used through the entirety of Majora's Mask, is in context for the mask, of the guardian giants. Even stuff that got translated as like "Giant Chu" and more used different phrasing in the raw.

Normal Link is incomparably weaker. That's literally why you need to free the Giants. Link can't stop the moon himself. The Giants can.

The Giant's Mask scaling isn't

• "normal Link scales to the Four Giants",

it's

• "Giant Link, using the special giant transformation, scales into that general giant / moon-interaction"

The raw is more explicit too as above.

That's not comparable to Golden Sword scaling to the complete Triforce when ALBW guts that entire idea.

my supposed assumptions were more implied, like dragons being above stone gem users as dragonification being the last step towards using that same power, but fine whatever.

Your dragon chain isn't just one "maybe", the actual framing of it even being a thing is "maybe, who knows", in context.

It needs like five things to all be true at once, while the material is pushing against it.

• You need dragonification to have actually occurred with those 3, which fine ok.
• You need that to scale over the stone / gem users in the exact way you want.
• You need the Secret Stones to be an exact multiplier when we know it's partially based on the host's strength.
• You need the original entities to have been at least as strong as the Sages for the multiplier to be used.
• You need Link, who is weaker than crusty Ganon at the time and just got mauled / lost his power, to somehow survive stuff a billion times stronger if you want them 5-A.
• You need this to not make start-of-game Link millions of times stronger than the version of himself the plot is currently treating as weakened.

And you need all of that despite the story not even supporting that.

That's not the same thing as a direct sword statement.

Golden MS hurts only because anti-evil, but light arrows with same property somehow got an ap rating not only hax one,

Light Arrows are treated differently because they have different evidence.

They pierce / blast / vaporize targets in the relevant contexts.
In WW, they straight up vaporize enemies like Dark Nuts ffs.

They're also stated far above the fire and ice arrows in raw power so there's a direct baseline.

They also get the same sacred benefit where the more evil a target is, the harder the holy / light effect hits.

And for OoT Ganon, guide material directly supports them being on that level too, got comparisons to him.

So yes, Light Arrows can have AP evidence depending on the game, which they do.

That still don't make Golden Sword full-Triforce AP valid.

and i am proposing a possibly rating when gameplay and developers note kinda support the likely idea that the sword injured ganon and that red mail can tank his blows.

My dude, I hate to say it but your CRT got rejected, ain't no compromise here, we know pretty evidently it isn't the case not "maybe not the case".

• The finalized material does not say the Golden Sword injured him in the way you need.
• It says stun, freeze, or vulnerability. The exact opposite of what you want.
• The fight itself still requires Silver Arrows.
• The guide you linked says Link avoided Ganon's powers.
• And ALBW hard-caps the Golden Sword far below the complete Triforce.

So at most, ALttP gives:

• Golden Sword can stun / freeze / open Ganon
• Golden Sword can interact with him through sacred anti-evil mechanics not power (as shown by Aghanim)
• Silver Arrows are required to actually finish him verbatim
• Link used his full kit and avoided Ganon's powers

It doest give:

• Golden Sword raw AP = complete Triforce
• Red Mail durability = complete Triforce
• ALttP Link physically scales to full Triforce Ganon

"But yuganon" ok scale yuganon to 3-A as well but lower value. that's literally as it usually works, we have several entities and characters being waaaay above others still in the same tier.

No, what in the hell are you talking about?

Yuganon does not scale to the full Triforce.

That is literally why he wants the last piece. He can't even stabilize Lorule with what he has.

The full Triforce isn't "a higher value in the same general area".
It is exponentially / infinitely above the sum of its parts. And this is stated constantly. The entire point even.

You can't take the thing explicitly missing the full Triforce and then scale it to the full Triforce just because the gap is inconvenient for your goal. Not how scaling works.

Yuganon is below the full thing by premise.

Not slightly below.
Not "same thing but lower".

Below it by an infinite / exponential gap. Which also damns any notion of it scaling anyway because per your own logic, the Golden Sword is inferior to something way inferior to the thing you're trying to scale it to, so one of these is wrong dude, and given you yourself posted a scan saying the ALBW Golden Sword is the strongest at that time, you don't even have an excuse for the AlttP one to somehow be an infinity times stronger, you sabotaged your only out.

And mind you, the Golden Sword isn't above two Triforce pieces either.

It's barely being used on par with one, because Link needed the Triforce of Courage while also having the Golden Sword to fight Yuganon at all.

ALBW isn't a buff for Golden Sword scaling.
It is a cap.

• Golden Sword + ToC is needed against Yuganon.
• Yuganon is still missing the final piece.
• The complete Triforce is infinitely / exponentially above that the sum of its parts.

Trying to patch this by saying "scale Yuganon too" is just scaling the weaker incomplete thing to the complete thing it explicitly isn't even close to.

That's circular nonsense.

Fact is:

• Yuganon has two pieces.
• He wants the third because he does not have the full Triforce.
  • He needs it to save Lorule.
• The full Triforce is infinitely / exponentially above its parts.
• Link has Golden Sword and still needs ToC to fight him.
• So Golden Sword does not scale to the full Triforce.
  • It is about equal to a single piece on its own.
• It's capped far below it.

You can't push Golden Sword full-Triforce scaling by upscaling the character whose entire plot role is "I still need the final piece to reach the full thing".

And none of that "well same tier-", dude, even if they were somehow the same tier it still wouldn't work because the gap is Full >>> Two >> One >~ Golden.

The chain and gaps just between the low bits would have the full one face tanking everything just fine. Not that you can scale it to the thing it's literally not comparable toward.

This exact same logic also makes ToP and below 2-C as well because the gap between one and two pieces is legit basically just 1+1 as opposed to 1+1+1 = exponential greater sum. And the ToC itself is around or above Golden Sword you keep pushing as 3-A. This would make a slew of characters we know damn well aren't 3-A into 3-A.

And you need to stop with the "well it's only 3-A", it isn't, it's 2-C now.
Which exacerbates the problem because that's a two infinity gap, and Ganon is stated outright to have its full power, not an infinitesimal fraction.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Agahnim 2 is still immune to the Golden Sword.
And Agahnim 2 is still infinitely weaker than

Doesn't lore literally suggest that you won't get golden sword until final fight with ganon? Literally when u get the silver arrows as well. Gaining it earlier because gameplay allows you to, isn't much different from facing calamity ganon with a wood stick. While, if u tell me and it's proved that you have the golden sword against agahnim 2 in lore I can accept this.

Using base gameplay hits on Majora as lore scaling is like saying Yamcha can fight Beerus because a game lets him do it.

Yeah I know, I am against this. But hyrule encyclopedia clearly states that majora is weak to light arrows tho. That's not just a gameplay thing.

"In this final form, it is vulnerable to light arrows"
- Encyclopedia, in the monster database.

It says stun,

It says harm in the developers note, and I have seen other game guides being used in other threads of Zelda with the same reasoning. If it was said stun I wouldn't be here discussing.

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn't lore literally suggest that you won't get golden sword until final fight with ganon? Literally when u get the silver arrows as well. Gaining it earlier because gameplay allows you to, isn't much different from facing calamity ganon with a wood stick. While, if u tell me and it's proved that you have the golden sword against agahnim 2 in lore I can accept this.

What lore? Cite the lore that says Link only gets the Golden Sword and Silver Arrows in the tiny gap between Agahnim 2 and Ganon. Because the game sure as hell does not say that dude.

And being blunt, that sequence doesn't even make sense as a default read?

Link kills Agahnim 2, Ganon bursts out, flies to the Pyramid, blows open the hole, and Link follows him.

So, what then? Link sees Ganon flee into the final fight and goes:

• "Actually, never mind, I am going to leave now and go do upgrade some side shit"?

That's way more forced than simply accepting that Link already got the optional upgrades before Ganon's Tower, which the game literally allows, and honestly implies given Link went to the Ganon's Tower to kill Ganon, why would he go there if he didn't have shit and knew he wouldn't be able to without more upgrades? Like Sahas even says Link NEEDS the Arrows so they obviously knew, in context, that Link without them wouldn't be capable so why go fight him early from their perspective?

• "Gaining it earlier because gameplay allows you to, isn't much different from facing calamity ganon with a wood stick"

No, that comparison is absurd.

BotW lets you fight Calamity Ganon with random garbage because it's an open-ended sandbox and the whole point is flexible equipment choice, but then it also tells us what actually happened, what was required in lore, and builds upon it next game.

ALttP's Golden Sword / Silver Arrow route is not "Link picked up a random stick"

It's a specific sacred upgrade route tied to the final required kill condition. The Silver Arrows are mandatory to finish Ganon, and the Golden Sword is an actual sword upgrade available before the endgame. The characters in context knew this as above.

Those aren't remotely the same kind of gameplay freedom.

• "While, if u tell me and it's proved that you have the golden sword against agahnim 2 in lore I can accept this."

You have this backwards lad.

You're the one claiming lore locks the Golden Sword to after Agahnim 2.

So prove that.

• The actual game lets Link obtain the Golden Sword before fighting Agahnim 2.
• The actual game acknowledges without the Arrows there's no point even attempting Ganon, yet Aghanim 2 occurs after Link is on his way to slime him.
• The guide you linked does not say "Link canonically only got this right before Ganon"

It says, if you have not gotten it / forgot to get it, go do it now.

That's a reminder, not a lore statement.

That's not the same as the game saying "Link canonically used only the Master Sword here and could not have had the Golden Sword". The more I think about it, the more utterly incoherent your take is with the game, it makes no damn sense.

So unless you have an actual story source saying Link lacked the Golden Sword against Agahnim 2, the argument fails.

• The available route allows it.
• The guide does not ban it.
• In-universe context implies he'd have it.

And there is no lore line saying he only got the upgrades after Agahnim 2.

So no, you don't get to invent a canon lockout just because Agahnim 2 being immune to the Golden Sword is inconvenient for your very clearly rejected thread.

Yeah I know, I am against this. But hyrule encyclopedia clearly states that majora is weak to light arrows tho. That's not just a gameplay thing.

Actually it semi-is, you're in a gameplay section but it wouldn't even matter

Also back up. Then why are you using it?

You just admitted you don't accept the premise, but you're still trying to weaponize it because it might help your Golden Sword argument?

That isn't consistency. That's cherry-picking. If you can't argue honestly and are going to pull shit like that, I'm thinking we may need to do a bit more than just reject this CRT.
Either way, if Majora being weak to Light Arrows is bad scaling because it clashes with the actual story, then we reject it or revise it.

We don't go:

• "I disagree with this, but I will use it anyway when it helps me force another bad rating"

"In this final form, it is vulnerable to light arrows"
- Encyclopedia, in the monster database.

You're proving my point and somehow missing it at the same time.

Majora's final form is directly stated to be its most powerful form. In no less than 9 different sources.
It is directly stated to be unleashing its full evil presence. Fully manifesting its evil form.
It is directly described as a spirit that is the embodiment of evil and madness while in that state.

And the most hilarious part of all? The fact one of the Japanese guides and website literally confirms this to be case, paraphrased of course, but it says try hitting it with LA if you don't have the FD after it revealed its true power as the personification of evil or some shit. I legitimately have no idea why you're trying to use Majora as an excuse, pick something I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge like Spirit Tracks or something, at least then I won't be able to catch blatant problems at a glance.

Regardless, then, in that exact state, it's vulnerable to Light Arrows.

So no, this isn't "Light Arrows scale normally to Majora's full AP" (ironic, if we're going by gameplay, the code shows Majora has built-in half damage resistance, but that's not relevant nor canon).

This is the same sacred weakness logic again. If we want to use that, you just gave another example against your OP.

The more fully Majora exposes itself and manifests as an abstract spirit embodiment of evil, the more light works on it.

We already know this can't be normal AP, because Link's normal arsenal is both stated to be insufficient against Majora, and shown to be useless, and if you treat random gameplay hits as lore then Deku Link and base Link suddenly scale too, which is stupid. But worst of all, we're told the Wrath form is particularly weak to light.

So the actual conclusion is:

• Majora's final form is its strongest form.
• That form is explicitly tied to its full evil presence.
• It is explicitly an evil / madness spirit.
• Light Arrows work because that state is vulnerable to light.
• That is weakness exploitation, not clean AP scaling.

So thanks for posting the scan that I'm already well aware of because it ain't like I haven't spent 3 years working on a Majora CRT that has so much deep cut shit I'm sitting on borderline lost media, difference is I'm not at the point as to take it out of context to try to push a blatantly rejected and incoherent scaling that doesn't work no matter how you go about it.
It doesn't save your argument. It proves the exact sacred anti-evil interaction I've been talking about.

It says harm in the developers note, and I have seen other game guides being used in other threads of Zelda with the same reasoning. If it was said stun I wouldn't be here discussing.

It ISN'T even a developers note, it's a concept art that was sent to the team working on the boss. Hurt, well actually it doesn't say hurt or harm but that's besides the point, for game damage, ticking off its internal HP pool to initiate the next phase. Not lore.
And then when you look at actual lore wording it's always stun, paralyze, freeze, or make vulnerable.

And I don't care what we did in other threads? Zelda is outdated anyway, our canonicity standards changed too, it's why I have that bibliography on hand and a few other things telling us what guides and books usable for canon (not all of them listed in that list, but there's not a whole lot past that, far as Nintendo Power is concerned, legit only 1 might be usable for example, which says a lot wen there's like 9 of them).

And also, you replied to like three lines out of the entire post and ignored almost every actual point.

You didn't answer:

• Agahnim 2 being immune to the Golden Sword while still being infinitely below Ganon.
• Why that destroys the idea that Golden Sword working on Ganon is about raw power output.
• Why Ganon being more evil / darkness-tied makes him more vulnerable to sacred power, not less.
• BotW integrating this exact idea by having the Master Sword power up around Ganon-level evil.
• The fact that finalized guides / books / official material repeatedly say stun, freeze, or vulnerability, not raw damage.
• The fact that your "harm" wording is from a dev concept / boss progression note, not the finalized guide wording.
• The fact that Silver Arrows are still mandatory to actually kill Ganon.
• The fact that even gameplay does not let the Golden Sword finish him.
• The guide saying Link avoided Ganon's powers.
• Link using everything he obtained, including the Magic Cape.
• ALBW existing at all.
• ALBW showing Golden Sword + Triforce of Courage is needed against Yuganon.
• Yuganon still lacking the last piece.
• Yuganon explicitly wanting Courage because he does not have the full Triforce.
• The complete Triforce being the actual end goal, not two pieces.
• The Golden Sword not being above two pieces, and barely functioning in a fight where Link still needs ToC.
• The fact that this isn't "same tier but lower"; Yuganon literally lacks the full thing he is trying to obtain and because of that he can't do his goal.
• The fact that Link's normal arsenal is stated insufficient against Majora, so you cannot treat random gameplay hits as lore AP.
• The distinction between direct AP feats/statements and stun/freeze/weakness/opening effects.
• The Vaati/sword scaling being based on sword-to-sword statements, not generic gameplay chip damage.
• The Giant's Mask point being a special transformation, not normal Link scaling.

You just skipped basically all of that and went back to three points:

1. "Maybe lore says Link only gets Golden Sword right before Ganon."
2. "Majora is vulnerable to Light Arrows."
3. "The dev note says harm."

None of those answers the argument.

And again, ALBW alone should end this.

• Link has the Golden Sword.
  • Per your own evidence it might be more powerful than AlttP Golden Sword.
• Link still needs the Triforce of Courage to fight Yuganon, the sword isn't enough.
• Yuganon has Power + Wisdom and still needs the last piece.
• The full Triforce is the actual complete object and the actual goal, the full is infinitely above the sum for it.

So no, Golden Sword does not scale to the full Triforce.

It's not even above the incomplete Yuganon setup, Link needs ToC on top of the sword to fight him.

If you can't answer ALBW, Agahnim 2, finalized stun/vulnerability wording, Silver Arrows being mandatory, and the sacred weakness distinction, then there is nothing left to discuss.

 

[Dust_Collector]

In regards to the whole "does Link even have the Golden Sword when fighting Agahnim", besides the obvious that the events of the game pretty much wouldn't allow that to happen story wise without it making no sense, both the historia and encyclopedia treat the fights as happening back to back with nothing happening between them.

"Link destroyed Agahnim in their second battle and made his way to Ganon. After a fierce battle, Link vanquished the monster and regained the Triforce."

"Link then defeated Agahnim, who attempted to block his path, and made his way toward Ganon. The Pyramid was now set to serve as the site of the decisive battle. Ganon, in the form of a giant demonic beast, pressed his attack, wielding dark magic and a three-pronged trident."

No mention of Link upgrading his sword or getting the Silver Arrows in between, just that he murked Agahnim and used his magical dimension hopping duck to follow Ganon and fight him like 20 seconds later.