• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Paraconsistent Physiology Checklist

Okay, that statement, plus the one about logical states, should be good enough to give PP Type 2 to anyone within the Irrational Universe, or sharing in its nature.
Shouldn't it be Type 3 as it has more than 5 logic values ("true", "false", "true and false" and "neither true nor false") since, as the description says, these entities would:

"instead operating on a many-valued logic system with at least five truth values. Such characters occupy a state where they are neither A, nor not A, nor both A and not A, nor neither A nor not A, instead existing in a state one can't describe using simple combinations of A and not A."

Existing outside of potentially millions or even billions of logic states (depends on how many colours of there are, even at the most literal, absolute lowest is 7)

These beings would have to use many-valued logic
 
Shouldn't it be Type 3 as it has more than 5 logic values ("true", "false", "true and false" and "neither true nor false") since, as the description says, these entities would:

"instead operating on a many-valued logic system with at least five truth values. Such characters occupy a state where they are neither A, nor not A, nor both A and not A, nor neither A nor not A, instead existing in a state one can't describe using simple combinations of A and not A."

Existing outside of potentially millions or even billions of logic states (depends on how many colours of there are, even at the most literal, absolute lowest is 7)
Not exactly, the scan about the rainbow was referring to logic states, logic states are: (Life & Nonlife, Being and Nonbeing, Existent or Nonexistent, etc)

There can be infinite logical states, each of which only has 4 Truth States, which are as you mentioned: ("true", "false", "true and false" and "neither true nor false")

So, existing outside of logical states would mean you are neither A nor Not A, which is the 4th Truth State, which is still PP Type 2.
 
Might need more context, since in Doctor Who, it does give Logic states to the Rational Universe, with there being an analogue between each colour in the Rainbow and the amount of logic states:
Adding even more context:

The universe originally lacked dualities, as dual concepts were created by the Grey Man's people — Falls The Shadow


And the Grey Man, in an attempt to counteract this, created a computer capable of generating the opposite effect: "ambiguity", which shattered certainties. To achieve this, they needed to access the mathematical core of the universe: the little numbers at the edge of the quantum event horizon, where the macro and micro worlds become interchangeable — Falls The Shadow



The laws of rationality and mathematics had been woven by the Time Lords — Cwej: Down the Middle¹, The Book of the Snowstorm²



The laws of logic and mathematics are more fundamental than the laws of physics — Liberating Earth

Reality is founded upon existence and non-existence, 0 and 1 — Cwej: Fragments of Totality

However, the rational universe created by the Time Lords is merely one flavour of reality in comparison to the pre-universe, which operated through infinite possibilities — Christmas on a Rational Planet

The pre-universe existed within a vast flux of stories and realities that conflicted with the laws of rationality that Rassilon sought to establish. Thus, "infinite possibilities" essentially refers to infinite stories, each with its own rules that contradict the rational laws of the Time Lords — Cwej: Lungbarrow by Loomlight

The Time Lords banished all irrational concepts that did not align with their rational worldview — Cwej: Lungbarrow by Loomlight

The pre-universe allowed for things that were literally impossible, things that violated every known and unknown law — Christmas on a Rational Planet

And the Queen is simply all possible (rational) forms and all impossible (irrational) forms simultaneously — Christmas on a Rational Planet
 
Thought just came to me, I probably should do Chronicles of Darkness too ahead of time:

Chronicles of Darkness is a lot like WoD, it's basically the "New 52" continuity reboot but for WoD.

Middle ranked Spirits like the Indivisible are like this:
It is the One, devoid of the possibility of multiplicity,
or even duality. It knows nothing of the Other,
for it is One, and only One.

True Fae are semi-Nondual themselves, not being guaranteed duality at all:
Like humans and changelings, Gentry are defined
by a basic duality: subject and object, Self and Other.
But unlike mortals, Gentry are not guaranteed duality. They
only have a tenuous ability to set themselves apart from Arcadia.
At the whim of material existence, mortals cannot
help but experience a separation between themselves and
their world. Tensions between the Self and Other drive
their lives. They remember conflicts, link them together
and forge life stories.

CofD has a similar statement about duality and plurality:
Ben’s love for baseball colored his approach to
magic, making it difficult for him to hew to the triedand-
true traditions. Soon he found himself the leader
of a cabal of like-minded mages, all of whom see the
rhythm and structure of the game as a perfect synthesis
of movement and stillness, balance and action,
duality and plurality.
Duality is embodied by some spirits:
Elunim: Spirits of the half moon, duality, and judgment.
Some of the Places Mages (yes, Mages are in CofD too, woohooooo) visit are explicitly Non-Dual:
Mages in the Anima Mundi can scarcely trust their
own senses, so catalogues of the so-called Chthonic
Powers are notoriously arbitrary, changing from scholar
to scholar based on researchers’ astral experiences and
preconceived notions. Far from being an authoritative
work, the Mysterium’s Chthonomicon is subject
to constant revisions and disputes, but its categories,
repeated below, at least serve as a basis for discussion.
One thing that complicates any theory is the inherent
non-duality of the Anima Mundi. Any separate
identity is, in the end, an illusion that arises based
on the needs and expectations of human explorers.

Duality itself is an element of the Lie, the "false" Nature of the World which stems from the Abyss the source of all falsehoods, lies, etc that plague the world (this isn't like spoken or mental falsehoods but extant, existing features of the world):

Duality is often an element of the Lie.
In its most basic form, the Lie gives rise to Sleeper religions
that say that humanity can only rise above the Fallen World
after death. In mages, this kind of thinking separates a mage’s
soul from the Supernal Realms. If she believes that the Abyss is
wider than her own soul, she will surely draw the Abyss in.
Furthermore, the Arcana are as much an art as a science.
They do not always conform to Fallen logic of cause and effect
or the separation between objects and ideas. Koans stretch the
mage’s mind in order to accommodate the strange principles
of magic.

The biggest, most clear cut and wildest is the straight up full explanation of Daoism and Daoist cosmology within Chronicles of Darkness:

The Taoist Cosmology
As Lao-Tzu said, the concept at the core of Taoism
is fundamentally indefinable. “Tao” means “the way.”
The Tao is the Way of the Universe: the natural order of
things and the totality of existence, beyond time, space
and division into separate entities.
The Tao Te Ching describes the genesis of the Universe
in this way: “The Tao gave birth to the One; the One
gave birth to the Two; the Two gave birth to the Three;
the Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand Things.”
However, this is not a historical progression analogous
to the Judeo-Christian seven days of Creation. Instead,
Lao-Tzu describes the progressive development of concepts,
from the indescribable Tao to the real, concrete
objects of everyday experience.


The One
Because the Tao is totally beyond all description or
division, one cannot even say that it exists: That would
ascribe a definite quality to the Tao and a division between
existence and nonexistence.
All of reality — the manifest Tao — is the One. The
manifest Tao is called T’ai Chi, “the Great Principle,” or
Hun Tun, “Primordial Chaos.” Reality is not yet divided
into entities, qualities or levels of being such as matter or
spirit. At this level of comprehension, everything consists
of one essence: Ch’i or Qi, “Breath,” a force both natural
and supernatural. Like the Western scientific concept
of energy, qi appears in many forms, from literal breath
to the power of souls. Solid matter is just a particularly
dense configuration of qi. Taoist religion represents
this ultimate force as the god Yüan-shih T’ien-tsun, or
“Primordial Heavenly Worthy.”


The Two
The quality of existence necessarily implies the quality
of non-existence. Unity begets duality. The primordial qi
operates in two fundamental modes: Yang, the principle
of active force, expansion, light, motion, life and Heaven;
and Yin, the principle of passive receptivity, restriction,
darkness, stillness, death and Earth. Just about everyone
has seen the monad symbol of the circle divided by a
recurving line into two comma-shapes, black and white,
that represents the division between yin and yang.

As the monad symbol suggest, yin and yang are not
static qualities locked in eternal opposition and negation.
Their interplay is dynamic: Something can be yin in one

context, yang in another. Each half of the monad also
contains a spot of the opposite hue. Taoist philosophy
says that nothing is pure. Everything contains a bit of
its opposite. Indeed, any extreme tends to give rise to its
own opposite. For instance, long periods of peace and
social stability generate the seeds of revolt; periods of
social chaos lay the groundwork for a new order. One
Taoist initiatory rite increases a student’s mystical force
by poisoning him and leaving him in a lightless cave
for a week. The concentrated force of yin must attract a
complementary upsurge of yang, increasing the student’s
spiritual force overall.
Taoist religion represents this conceptual stage of duality
as the god Ling-pao T’ien-tsun, the “Spirit Jewel Heavenly
Worthy,” emblematic of the connection between matter
and spirit, Heaven and Earth.


The Three
Some Taoists interpret “the Two” as Yang and “the
Three” as Yin, but other interpretations are possible.
The I Ching, an ancient fortune-telling guide, ascribes
special importance to eight “trigrams” that represent the
permutations of yin and yang in groups of three. Each
trigram consists of three line segments, whole for yang
and broken for yin. They range from three yang lines
to three yin lines. The eight trigrams are often drawn
around the yin-yang monad; this octagonal arrangement
also provides a map of space for Taoist rituals.
“The Three” can also refer to a third Taoist deity, Taote
T’ien-tzun, the Heavenly Worthy of the Tao. Taoists
regard this deity as the divine archetype of the sage Lao-
Tzu and a symbol of qi as life force.
Taoism also places great emphasis on the triad of
Heaven, Earth and Man. These three realms of being
reflect each other. Entities in one realm correlate to
entities in the others. For instance, the Purple Court is
simultaneously the highest palace in Heaven, a palace on
the mythical mountain K’un-lun, and part of the human
brain. A Taoist draws power from these affinities.

The Ten Thousand Things
The interplay of qi creates an infinitude of different
entities. Some are material; some are spiritual. As the
appearance of the three Heavenly Worthies suggests,
Taoism combines an abstract, philosophical conception
of qi with belief in gods and spirits. The Heavenly Worthies
exist in Prior Heaven, the realm of transcendent
archetypes. Most gods, however, exist in Posterior Heaven,
which is merely a place in the sky for spirits. Taoists often
personify the forces and concepts of their creed as gods
whom they can call upon for power.

The ultimate point for Daoist Mages in CofD is to join the Unknowable Dao and they achieve this by working backwards, removing impurities, back from the Ten-thousand things to The Three to the Two and eventually the One.

The Taoist master, however, performs the ceremonies
that give the Chiao its meaning and power. In the course
of the ceremonies, he invokes the Three Heavenly
Worthies through his internal alchemy. In this way,
he works backward from the Ten Thousand Things to
make his body itself a vessel for the archetypal realm of
Prior Heaven. In the climactic ritual, however, he expels
all the gods from his body: first the lesser gods of the
various visceral courts and cinnabar fields, and finally
the Three Heavenly Worthies themselves. Emptied of
all the forms that evolve from the Tao, he at last may
contemplate the Tao itself. He becomes the Tao. Heaven,
Earth and Man fuse. The laity, the priesthood and the
master join in one rite, along with all the spirits from
the Heavenly Worthies to the most wretched ghost. The
cosmos returns to its source, and is renewed, placed in
balance once more.
 
PP3 for Kim dokja


1 - Good
2 - Evil
Evil is created from things that are not good; therefore, evil encompasses all that is not good.
3 - Both
4 Neither
Maybe 5??? Neither and both the same time
(For beings that are neither good or evil, they are both good and evil at the same time.)
5 or 6? - Chaos( Chaos is very different, it is neither Good nor Evil but is not both at the same time,)
6 or 7?? Wall of good and evill

The wall of good and evil is a fragment of the final wall that encompasses everything.
 
Thought just came to me, I probably should do Chronicles of Darkness too ahead of time:

Chronicles of Darkness is a lot like WoD, it's basically the "New 52" continuity reboot but for WoD.
I mean, it looks fine, but this isn't exactly the thread for PP that's not on the wiki yet.
PP3 for Kim dokja

1 - Good
2 - Evil
Evil is created from things that are not good; therefore, evil encompasses all that is not good.
3 - Both
4 Neither
Maybe 5??? Neither and both the same time
(For beings that are neither good or evil, they are both good and evil at the same time.)
5 or 6? - Chaos( Chaos is very different, it is neither Good nor Evil but is not both at the same time,)
6 or 7?? Wall of good and evill

The wall of good and evil is a fragment of the final wall that encompasses everything.
Someone already posted this; this isn't PP Type 3.
 
I mean, it looks fine, but this isn't exactly the thread for PP that's not on the wiki yet.
Oh yeah, I'm just pre-gaming since I have a character from Chronicles that I plan to introduce soon and I think it's useful to bounce content off of other people who understand the system so I don't get too "in my own head" about it, I basically work on the profiles entirely by my self as it is.
 
Someone already posted this; this isn't PP Type 3.
Ur concern comes from them being not properties of Chaos. Oldest Dream transcends everything stated here. Idk what is that if not outright immunity. Even if you axe PP1 for Outer Gods(that's fine) axing PP from OD for this reasons is strange

should be self evident about OD transcending everything below so "Chaos is PP3 Outer Gods are not" argument doesn't work here
One thing I would like clarified is whether the Outer Gods themselves possess the properties of Chaos. Since being born from something isn't the same as having it's characteristics.
 
Last edited:
Ur concern comes from them being not properties of Chaos. Oldest Dream transcends everything stated here. Idk what is that if not outright immunity. Even if you axe PP1 for Outer Gods(that's fine) axing PP from OD for this reasons is strange https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kim_Dokja?so=search#

should be self evident about OD transcending everything below so "Chaos is PP3 Outer Gods are not" argument doesn't work here
I mean PP3 for Chaos got axed to PP1 (I'll change that once I start the revision). The no immunity part was because I haven't sent any scans yet. Given how difficult it is to interact with the Outer Gods, the immunity part is a bit challenging to prove, and yeah, OD, with his transcendence, possesses immunities to all concepts.
 
Marvel's Paraconsistent Physiology needs to be fixed:

The framework for this ability in Marvel is built upon The Inbetweener.

Using X as the truth state condition:

First Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Second Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Third Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Both X and Not-X.

Fourth Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

So The Inbetweener has 2 Truth States: (Neither X or Not-X) and (Both X and Not-X).

Additionally: Higher entities starting at the level of Eternity are, for some reason, granted Paraconsistent Physiology type-3 for being more powerful than and existing above The Inbetweener. To my knowledge, this is not how Paraconsistent Physiology works. There are no additional Truth States being added simply by being more powerful so obviously Marvel characters that currently have type-3 Paraconsistent Physiology should be changed to be type-2 and will have 2 Truth States.
 
Last edited:
Marvel's Paraconsistent Physiology needs to be fixed:

The framework for this ability in Marvel is built upon The Inbetweener.

Using X as the truth state condition:

First Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Second Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Third Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Both X and Not-X.

Fourth Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

So The Inbetweener has 2 Truth States: (Neither X or Not-X) and (Both X and Not-X).

Additionally: Higher entities starting at the level of Eternity are, for some reason, granted Paraconsistent Physiology type-3 for being more powerful than and existing above The Inbetweener. To my knowledge, this is not how Paraconsistent Physiology works. There are no additional Truth States being added simply by being more powerful so obviously Marvel characters that currently have type-3 Paraconsistent Physiology should be changed to be type-2 and will have 2 Truth States.
@Eseseso Would you mind pitching in?
 
@Eseseso Would you mind pitching in?
Honestly, Ultima is the one behind the nonduality of the abstracts, plus PP isn't one of my stronger areas, but now that I have been summoned I would like to inquire about the PP of the following:

1. Marvel's Magic has the current justification for Nonduality/PP and NEP 2:
2. Astral Forms in Marvel have the following:

So while I'm here I'd like to see whether they qualify for the new PP standards
 
Honestly, Ultima is the one behind the nonduality of the abstracts, plus PP isn't one of my stronger areas, but now that I have been summoned I would like to inquire about the PP of the following:

1. Marvel's Magic has the current justification for Nonduality/PP and NEP 2:
The in-between part would be PP Type 1.

Typically, governing something doesn’t attribute its properties to you, in the same way matter doesn’t have all the abilities of the people who are made of matter. But since we’re talking about states of being here, which would still apply to the thing these realms are made of, I think it would be more accurate to say that magic can exist in a state of PP Type 2, though it may not always do so.

So yeah, I would still consider it valid.
Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2) & Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, Aspects 1, 2 & 3; The Astral Realm, where all Astral Forms reside, is described as "The edge of reality. The shores of oblivion. The realm of mind and spirit that exists between being and non-being", and because Astral Forms are composed of not just one's soul, but also one's mind and the very essence of who they are, they thus exist between "being" and "not being" in regard to their minds, souls, and personal concepts.
This would probably be downgraded to PP Type 1.
 
Additionally: Higher entities starting at the level of Eternity are, for some reason, granted Paraconsistent Physiology type-3 for being more powerful than and existing above The Inbetweener. To my knowledge, this is not how Paraconsistent Physiology works. There are no additional Truth States being added simply by being more powerful so obviously Marvel characters that currently have type-3 Paraconsistent Physiology should be changed to be type-2 and will have 2 Truth States.
Because they transcend The (universal) In-Betweener and Galactus in their Multiversal States, with Galactus existing as the opposite of The In-Between due to being the absence and existing outside of dualities, whereas the In-Betweener exists as their union
 
The in-between part would be PP Type 1.

Typically, governing something doesn’t attribute its properties to you, in the same way matter doesn’t have all the abilities of the people who are made of matter. But since we’re talking about states of being here, which would still apply to the thing these realms are made of, I think it would be more accurate to say that magic can exist in a state of PP Type 2, though it may not always do so.

So yeah, I would still consider it valid.

This would probably be downgraded to PP Type 1.
Given that you evaluated the Astral Form and Magic justifications for PP in Marvel, what do you think of my PP proposal for the Marvel abstracts:
Marvel's Paraconsistent Physiology needs to be fixed:

The framework for this ability in Marvel is built upon The Inbetweener.

Using X as the truth state condition:

First Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Second Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Third Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Both X and Not-X.

Fourth Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

So The Inbetweener has 2 Truth States: (Neither X or Not-X) and (Both X and Not-X).

Additionally: Higher entities starting at the level of Eternity are, for some reason, granted Paraconsistent Physiology type-3 for being more powerful than and existing above The Inbetweener. To my knowledge, this is not how Paraconsistent Physiology works. There are no additional Truth States being added simply by being more powerful so obviously Marvel characters that currently have type-3 Paraconsistent Physiology should be changed to be type-2 and will have 2 Truth States.
 
Hello guys, I've been wandering, does this qualify for paraconsistent physiology, and if it does. what type?

What God, what the whole cosmos wants...

Void.

By the photon system's reckoning, in about an hour and a half, the universe would scatter into subatomic fragments.

After that: infinite nothingness-a state so devoid of form that even the concept of "nothing" could not exist.

It can't end like this.

They had always fought with annihilation in mind, but the pressure now was of another magnitude.
Pisho pointed to the writhing part of his body.

"There is no such thing as 'the universe' to begin with. And therefore, we don't exist either. There was never a moment where something existed in some place from the very start. Shirone-it's just nothingness."

"There never was anything, nothing ever happened, and nothing is happening now either. 'Existence' doesn't exist."
Lucia nodded.

"God should be able to manifest through that conceptual balance."

"But Miss Lucia," Shirone said.

"You do realize, if it becomes infinite, even the concept of existence vanishes. If the Law of Two collapses, you can no longer be defined."
"The fact that Lagrange and the Multiverse have encountered each other proves one hypothesis. That none of this is real. What if matter and energy are actually just illusions?"

Kai continued.

"What if we never existed in the first place?"

'Never existed.'

That was the definition of infinite nothingness the Void-that Wizard had realized.

'The universe...'

It had never been born.

Therefore, neither space nor time exists, and none of the stories held within them ever happened.

'Then what about me?'

Who is the Wizard, right here, now, thinking these things while fighting Jervas?

'Ah.'

Tears welled up in her eyes.

'I see.'

Have you ever felt the emptiness of infinite nothingness?

In that blank space, where no story has ever been written...

'Possibility.'
While putting on earrings at the vanity, Plu asked through the mirror, “About Wizard… is she really going to be okay? Even with Shirone
going with her…”

“It’ll be hard. From what Shirone said, the concept of Infinite Nothingness surpasses even gods. If gods created the universe, then it’s natural to ask who created the gods. But Infinite Nothingness is different. It’s the end of all questions humans can ask. Wizard’s fear is on that level.”

“Then wouldn’t it be better to leave it to Shirone? Even if Wizard is stronger than him, in her current state, I don’t think she can carry out the
mission.”
 
Last edited:
You'll have to determine the aspects yourself, since I don't know the verse, but it would be Type 2, as it lacks the concepts of existence and nothingness.
Does aspects works if the said "space" lacks it? Since this space specifically lacks even stories, would that mean that it has an aspects for that aswell? Cuz I've never seen a nep with that kind of stuff yet
 
Does aspects works if the said "space" lacks it? Since this space specifically lacks even stories, would that mean that it has an aspects for that aswell? Cuz I've never seen a nep with that kind of stuff yet
You just have to find the aspects the verse has and then check if they don't exist in this void. If they don't, then you can list them as an aspect.
 
Marvel's Paraconsistent Physiology needs to be fixed:

The framework for this ability in Marvel is built upon The Inbetweener.

Using X as the truth state condition:

First Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Second Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Third Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Both X and Not-X.

Fourth Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

So The Inbetweener has 2 Truth States: (Neither X or Not-X) and (Both X and Not-X).

Additionally: Higher entities starting at the level of Eternity are, for some reason, granted Paraconsistent Physiology type-3 for being more powerful than and existing above The Inbetweener. To my knowledge, this is not how Paraconsistent Physiology works. There are no additional Truth States being added simply by being more powerful so obviously Marvel characters that currently have type-3 Paraconsistent Physiology should be changed to be type-2 and will have 2 Truth States.
Can my proposal be evaluated? It’s pretty straightforward so it shouldn’t take long.
 
LogicGates.jpg

That is not how the truth states work. To visually show this I have provided a logic gate diagram as that is the best visual I could think of. The Truth state of X is represented by 4th entry in the first column (A), while the Truth state of Not-X is represented by the 6th entry in the first column (B). The Truth state of Both X and Not-X is represented by the 8th entry in the first column (A or B), while the truth state of Neither X or Not-X is represented by the 1st entry in the second column (A Nor B). The state of being Both X and Not-X is not equivalent to being only entirely X while also having the paradoxical condition of being only entirely Not-X. The four traditional truth states as stated are (1) X (2) Not-X (3) Both X and Not-X (4) Neither X or Not-X. Being Both X and Not-X does not give one the prior truth states of being entirely X (1) and entirely Not-X (2) as the condition of being Both X and Not-X is a different third truth state. If your interpretation were accurate that would mean that having the condition of being Both X and Not-X provides three different truth states (1) (2), and (3) when in reality it is just one of the four.

An even more direct proof of this is a Tetralemma Diagram:
Tetralemma-illustration-2023_fuer-Video-Weiss.002.png

The four propositions are clearly absolutely distinct from one another and do not overlap or consist of any of the others. To keep consistency: here (the one) is X, (the other) is Not-X, (both) is Both X and Not-X, and (none) is Neither X or Not-X.
 
Last edited:
Marvel's Paraconsistent Physiology needs to be fixed:

The framework for this ability in Marvel is built upon The Inbetweener.

Using X as the truth state condition:

First Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Second Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Third Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Both X and Not-X.

Fourth Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

So The Inbetweener has 2 Truth States: (Neither X or Not-X) and (Both X and Not-X).

Additionally: Higher entities starting at the level of Eternity are, for some reason, granted Paraconsistent Physiology type-3 for being more powerful than and existing above The Inbetweener. To my knowledge, this is not how Paraconsistent Physiology works. There are no additional Truth States being added simply by being more powerful so obviously Marvel characters that currently have type-3 Paraconsistent Physiology should be changed to be type-2 and will have 2 Truth States.
If they have no reason for having PP outside of transcending the In-Betweener, then they should just have their PP removed, not just downgraded.
 
If they have no reason for having PP outside of transcending the In-Betweener, then they should just have their PP removed, not just downgraded.
Their H1A PP comes from transcending 1-A PP too

genuinely noone questioned this ever, idt we ever give layer or extra ability for higher lvl. like I thought it was self evident 1-A transcends low tier to irrelevancy
 
Their H1A PP comes from transcending 1-A PP too

genuinely noone questioned this ever, idt we ever give layer or extra ability for higher lvl. like I thought it was self evident 1-A transcends low tier to irrelevancy
Yeah this is some stuff from the odler scaling ways
 
Yeah this is some stuff from the odler scaling ways
Yeah it kind of doesn’t even makes any sense for there to be “layers” of paraconsistent physiology. If a being is qualitatively superior to another being’s state of existence, they still have the same number of truth states as no new ones were added unless explicitly shown otherwise.
If they have no reason for having PP outside of transcending the In-Betweener, then they should just have their PP removed, not just downgraded.
Eternity and Infinity would still have it as the Inbetweener is an inner function of their being as such, their state of existence is part of Eternity. So they would both have PP type-2 (2 truth states). As for the beings beyond Multi-Eternity such as The Beyonders, Phoenix Force, True Form Nyx, Tiger God, and The Queen of Nevers: their justification is purely due to transcending Multi-Eternity. I could see them having Type-2 PP as well but of the same degree (2 truth states).
 
Eternity and Infinity would still have it as the Inbetweener is an inner function of their being as such, their state of existence is part of Eternity. So they would both have PP type-2 (2 truth states). As for the beings beyond Multi-Eternity such as The Beyonders, Phoenix Force, True Form Nyx, Tiger God, and The Queen of Nevers: their justification is purely due to transcending Multi-Eternity. I could see them having Type-2 PP as well but of the same degree (2 truth states).
I would disagree. It would be akin to having NEP just because a non-existent realm exists within you, or gaining abstract existence because abstract beings live within the universe you embody.
 
I would disagree. It would be akin to having NEP just because a non-existent realm exists within you, or gaining abstract existence because abstract beings live within the universe you embody.
I suppose that makes sense. That should definitely be added to the PP page to avoid future confusion along with the fact that even if a superior being has the same number of truth states, there aren’t layers to the ability.
 
I would disagree. It would be akin to having NEP just because a non-existent realm exists within you, or gaining abstract existence because abstract beings live within the universe you embody.
I mean, no?
At the very least on the level of Multi-Eternity, Beyonders and whatnot, it is not just simply them existing within them, but eternity being the very ground of being they depend upon to exist, which include the inbetweener and his metaphysical opposite in galactus (a point which I feel to keep getting ignored about) who is the utter abscene of all that the inbetweener is, and of which they are the inner functions that control the functioning of reality
The Beyonders and characters further up the level are in their nature not just simply transcendental to such, but in their function ground and emanate outwards the levels below them, being beyond the constructs which bind the lesser realities, such as a narrative, I'll just quote ultima here on the explanation of how this all works
House of Ideas = The realm of pure oneness where only The One Above All exists, transcending all else. It is from here that infinite stories are born, but they are still only ideas, and have to go through several stages before they can become a world.

Da'at = The realm containing all possibility and impossibility. Here, God starts to consider ways in which his creation could be, as well as the ones in which it could not be.

White Hot-Room = The realm of the fires of creation, which forge the possibilities of Da'at into actuality. Here, God says "Let there be light," and the surge of energy that follows is the Big Bang thet gives birth to the cosmos.

Beyond = The foundation on which the world to come will rest. Here, the creative energies produced in the White-Hot Room are harnessed and start being organized and solidified into something concrete. Whereas the White-Hot Room precedes the birth of form, Yesod is the place in which the shape of creation is sketched out, beginning to exist in idea, but not in actuality.

The Far Shore = The pathway between The Neutral Zone and the Beyond, above space, time, life, death and self.

The Neutral Zone = The lowest world. The omniverse as a whole.
Hell there's the entire procession of the multiverses I can grab if needs be, wherein things such as the inbetweener and galactus only came to be in the 7th cosmos, and the realities beforehand were more and more primal, lacking more and more concepts all the way back to the first firmament itself
 
I mean, no?
At the very least on the level of Multi-Eternity, Beyonders and whatnot, it is not just simply them existing within them, but eternity being the very ground of being they depend upon to exist, which include the inbetweener and his metaphysical opposite in galactus (a point which I feel to keep getting ignored about) who is the utter abscene of all that the inbetweener is, and of which they are the inner functions that control the functioning of reality
The Beyonders and characters further up the level are in their nature not just simply transcendental to such, but in their function ground and emanate outwards the levels below them, being beyond the constructs which bind the lesser realities, such as a narrative, I'll just quote ultima here on the explanation of how this all works

Hell there's the entire procession of the multiverses I can grab if needs be, wherein things such as the inbetweener and galactus only came to be in the 7th cosmos, and the realities beforehand were more and more primal, lacking more and more concepts all the way back to the first firmament itself
The grounding argument doesn't work here.

Something being the metaphysical foundation, condition, or “ground of being” for another thing does not automatically mean it inherits every property, duality, or function found within what depends on it. A foundation can allow something to exist without being identical to everything that exists because of it.

For example, matter grounds material objects in a physical sense, but matter itself does not possess every property or ability of every object composed of matter. The fact that a sword, a brain, and a star are all made of matter does not mean matter as such is sharp, conscious, or capable of nuclear fusion in the same way those specific arrangements are.

The grounded thing can have special properties that do not apply to the ground in the same manner.

So even if Multi-Eternity, the Beyonders, or higher entities ground lower realities, that alone does not prove that every dichotomy and conceptual structure inside those lower realities applies to them. You would still need direct evidence that they themselves possess or transcend those exact structures in the relevant way at their own level of reality.

If the argument is that dualities as a whole cease to exist past a certain point, and that this applies broadly to all Marvel characters at Multi-Eternity’s level or higher, then scans should be provided for that specific claim.
 
The grounding argument doesn't work here.

Something being the metaphysical foundation, condition, or “ground of being” for another thing does not automatically mean it inherits every property, duality, or function found within what depends on it. A foundation can allow something to exist without being identical to everything that exists because of it.

For example, matter grounds material objects in a physical sense, but matter itself does not possess every property or ability of every object composed of matter. The fact that a sword, a brain, and a star are all made of matter does not mean matter as such is sharp, conscious, or capable of nuclear fusion in the same way those specific arrangements are.

The grounded thing can have special properties that do not apply to the ground in the same manner.

So even if Multi-Eternity, the Beyonders, or higher entities ground lower realities, that alone does not prove that every dichotomy and conceptual structure inside those lower realities applies to them. You would still need direct evidence that they themselves possess or transcend those exact structures in the relevant way at their own level of reality.

If the argument is that dualities as a whole cease to exist past a certain point, and that this applies broadly to all Marvel characters at Multi-Eternity’s level or higher, then scans should be provided for that specific claim.
Agreed. At the moment, there are no additional truth states applicable to characters at the level of Multi-Eternity or above. This could change in the future as Marvel is always getting new material, but for now that is the case.

I do wonder if the following could give Eternity and the other past Eternities type 2 PP. As discussed above, Magic has the possibility to be type 2, though is typically type 1:
The in-between part would be PP Type 1.

Typically, governing something doesn’t attribute its properties to you, in the same way matter doesn’t have all the abilities of the people who are made of matter. But since we’re talking about states of being here, which would still apply to the thing these realms are made of, I think it would be more accurate to say that magic can exist in a state of PP Type 2, though it may not always do so.

So yeah, I would still consider it valid.

This would probably be downgraded to PP Type 1.
Magic itself was created from the energy cast off by The Fourth Cosmos, creating the Fifth Cosmos of pure magic. Magic itself was not even a concept in The Third Cosmos (or before).

I mean, no?
At the very least on the level of Multi-Eternity, Beyonders and whatnot, it is not just simply them existing within them, but eternity being the very ground of being they depend upon to exist, which include the inbetweener and his metaphysical opposite in galactus (a point which I feel to keep getting ignored about) who is the utter abscene of all that the inbetweener is, and of which they are the inner functions that control the functioning of reality
The Beyonders and characters further up the level are in their nature not just simply transcendental to such, but in their function ground and emanate outwards the levels below them, being beyond the constructs which bind the lesser realities, such as a narrative, I'll just quote ultima here on the explanation of how this all works

Hell there's the entire procession of the multiverses I can grab if needs be, wherein things such as the inbetweener and galactus only came to be in the 7th cosmos, and the realities beforehand were more and more primal, lacking more and more concepts all the way back to the first firmament itself
No offense, but I do not think you understand how PP and truth states work.

As for Galactus he is a textbook example of Type-1 PP.

First Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Just X. Galactus is just Galactus with their not being an opposite to Galactus (a Not-X)

Second Statement on his profile: This describes him as “only Galactus” which of course is Just X. The other concepts of the universe have opposites, Galactus does not. There is only Galactus.

Third Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Just X. This is a direct admission from The Inbetweener that Galactus has no opposite. Galactus is only Galactus without an opposite.

As already discussed, the Inbetweener only has 2 truth states: Neither X or Not-X and Both X and Not-X
The framework for this ability in Marvel is built upon The Inbetweener.

Using X as the truth state condition:

First Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Second Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

Third Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Both X and Not-X.

Fourth Statement on his profile: This describes him as being Neither X or Not-X.

So The Inbetweener has 2 Truth States: (Neither X or Not-X) and (Both X and Not-X).
This is why he cannot affect Galactus as his domain stands Inbetween dichotomies as well as separate from them. Galactus only is Galactus without opposite so is unharmed by the former’s capabilities.
 
Last edited:
Huh, I've been gone for a while and didn't know a thread existed here. I was gonna save this for a CRT to expand upon this but I'll post a bit of it here for FF.

Chaos is essentially the force of nature that gave birth to everything and defines all existence, this includes creating and being the source of, controlling, all dualities being both everything and nothing, yet the very nature of Chaos transcends them altogether, with Dualities being mere aspects of Chaos.

Examples of the dualities that function under this include: Light and Darkness, Strength and Frailty, Beauty and Unsightliness, Life & Death, Existence & Nonexistence, Dream and Reality, Possibilities and Impossibilities.
 
Huh, I've been gone for a while and didn't know a thread existed here. I was gonna save this for a CRT to expand upon this but I'll post a bit of it here for FF.

Chaos is essentially the force of nature that gave birth to everything and defines all existence, this includes creating and being the source of, controlling, all dualities being both everything and nothing, yet the very nature of Chaos transcends them altogether, with Dualities being mere aspects of Chaos.

Examples of the dualities that function under this include: Light and Darkness, Strength and Frailty, Beauty and Unsightliness, Life & Death, Existence & Nonexistence, Dream and Reality, Possibilities and Impossibilities.
This CRT is for checking already accepted PP that may be operating under outdated standards from Transduality or Nonduality. If you plan to make a CRT for all this, it'll be up to date once it's accepted.
 
This CRT is for checking already accepted PP that may be operating under outdated standards from Transduality or Nonduality. If you plan to make a CRT for all this, it'll be up to date once it's accepted.
Oh no PP is already there. My CRT was merely just gonna expand upon the justification for it so it can be as good as possible, and some of the things I wanted to use are included in the very comment mentioned so I wanted to check on this thread for qualification
 
Last edited:
Oh no PP is already there. My CRT was merely just gonna expand upon the justification for it so it can be as good as possible, and some of the things I wanted to use are included in the very comment mentioned so I wanted to check on this thread for qualification
I see. Well, the dualities you listed above wouldn't count as logical negations aside from Dream & Reality, Existence & Nonexistence, and Possibility & Impossibility.
 
I see. Well, the dualities you listed above wouldn't count as logical negations aside from Dream & Reality, Existence & Nonexistence, and Possibility & Impossibility.
I see, well the what type would it be, and what about "All and Nothing"? Wouldn't that be logical negation and again it extends to all encompassing dualities. I should also mention, it has paradoxical aspects where contradictions can briefly co-exist until one is choosen as "Truth" and the other ceases to be.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top