GodlyCharmander
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That's not a struggle, but that's just a nitpick.
On that note, what evidence do we have that they evolved during Water 7 pre-Ennies Lobby?
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One Piece: Alabasta -> Skypiea Key Merge, Scaling Swap, and Calc Implementation
- Thread starter KingTempest
- Start date
On that note, what evidence do we have that they evolved during Water 7 pre-Ennies Lobby?
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,817
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I think if we have to do that, then it should looks like this, using Luffy as example (but to be honest i think it could be apply to both Zoro and Sanji too).
Beginning of Series to Early Alabasta Arc | Late Alabasta Arc to Water 7 Arc | Enies Lobby Arc to Post-War Arc.
As until he end up fighting Crocodile Luffy was never push to his limits and was overall potrayed as having the edge in strength/speed. The whole East Blue and early part of the Grandline got rolled by Luffy and the times he struggle was due of specific situations (be when his feets where stuck in concrete and he was throw by Arlong to drown, ow when Miss Goldenweek was using her color to hypnotize him, or when Wapol and his men try to kill him while he was try to protect Nami and Sanji, ow when Don Creek tried using his poison, or Mr. 3 using his candle to create durable armor or try to trick Luffy) rather than him facing an opponent stronger than him.
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- #43
It's not stated that they've grown stronger physically
Alabasta Zoro is Mr. 1 fight. His first fight was Daz Bones. You're thinking of the "Alabasta Saga", which his last fight in that Saga prior to the Alabasta arc was Whiskey Peak, where he was fresh off of the East Blue.
After Whiskey Peak, he did different training, actual extreme strength training in order to cut through steel.
But from Alabasta, he didn't do that. He didn't train right after Alabasta to Skypiea. He stayed stagnant.
Again, Zoro and Luffy both didn't fight a soul in Alabasta until Croc and Daz. Their first fights were the 2 strongests.
Just do from East Blue -> Drum. Alabasta Island is where everyone became who they were.
Face expression and reaction but yeah
Another thread is likely to be made for this cause it's not too important for this thread
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,817
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Its literally the same thing i proposed, for Early Alabasta i meant everything before the major power up/fights the Straw Hats got in the arc.
GodlyCharmander
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That's fine. I agree then.
Just confirm whether or not the implication exists? I'm curious, been a while since I've read it
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- #46
alright that's fair, my bad
it's actually in convos right now, rereading w7 to figure it out
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Doesn't work
It says it'll have a 5km diameter when it hits the ground. Not when it blows up in the air
Having a range on the ground ≠ the range will be uniform in the air
That's why the bomb on the ground wouldn't have even reached the castle but in the air it spread to the whole kingdom
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Detonating on the ground wouldn't reduce the power of the bomb by other thirty times, that just doesn't make sense. The explosion didn't cover the entire city and it wouldn't make sense to.
Either way Kachon's version of the calc is wrong, at least for the second method. If we want to use the first method in Kachon's calculation which uses the Ground Detonation and gets a durability of 303 Kilotons for Pell, then that'd be better than using the second method.
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None of this is... an argument?
It's a big ass bomb that we see in the air blows up a large area
the statement of the bomb isn't that it leaves a 5km wide explosion, it's that it's a 5km wide crater left behind. the explosion covers beyond the 5km. we're just settling with the minimum 5km explosion range because we can't calc a crater we haven't seen.
doubling the diameter alone increases it by like... 8? So none of this matters.
nothing at all proves his method is wrong you just don't like the assumptions at hand
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I already gave my argument earlier in the the thread for why Kachon's method wouldn't work. That's my evaluation of it as of now. And the way the characters talk about it, they talk about the explosion itself being 5 kilometres across (chapter 200 and 203).
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- #53
Your reason for why it wouldn't work consists of
Which I said isn't the case
The characters who talk about it are Vivi and randoms. Vivi notes that the explosion will destroy everything in a 5km diameter, aka the full destruction would span that, aka the crater, so the full shockwave would go beyond, which is why the air shockwave went beyond the kingdom but only destroyed the parts close and not the entire kingdom.
Crocodile, the bomb's owner, said it'd make a big ass crater. He's the best source
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That isn't the post I was referring to. I was referring to this post.
And I already explained how the "full shockwave" going beyond that radius doesn't matter. Shockwaves don't just come to a dead stop at the radius of an explosive's near-total fatalities effects; the shockwaves continue onwards, but lessened in effect as they disperse over a wider volume.
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- #55
I see how this is gonna go and I hate it so imma nip it at the bud.
The fact that we see the image of the theoretical explosion only spanning maybe a chunk of the city but the shockwave blowing apart the sandstorm city wide demolishes your entire point
Using a 5km airburst does not work. That is objectively the case. We agree on this.
Where we disagree is that apparently you don't think the visible feat of the air shockwave going beyond 2.5k and blowing out the sandstorm 9km in radius is fair when we quite blatantly see that the feat happens and is legit.
It visibly does it, there's no reason to think it's not legit.
Unless you want to calculate the theoretical crater and the yield to make that? Cause I can guarantee you that crater would support it
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KT; I addressed that already; the shockwave going beyond a 2.5 kilometre distance is a non-point because it was never disputed that the shockwave of the explosion goes beyond that point. At no point did I argue that the effects of the explosion come to a dead-stop 2.5 km away from the epicentre.
That was not the issue I was laying out in my argument. The formula that Kachon uses is not meant to be applied for "the furthest visible effect caused by the explosion."
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So what's your solution of recalculating it instead of completely nuking it. If you know what it's not meant for I'd assume you know what could be used in place. A lower PSI. a different specific distance, ISL, something, not just use a bad method or toss out the feat on the screen
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I suggested that Method 1 in Kachon's blog could be used. Is there an issue with using that end?
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I don't think there is per se, just not a fan of the recalc and ducking going on
but fine, we can use that then. @Kachon123 your calc is fine i'm assuming? i ain't a cgm
but fine, we can use that then. @Kachon123 your calc is fine i'm assuming? i ain't a cgm
GodlyCharmander
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Question, isn't the fact the explosion extends for 5km, but doesn't significantly affect the castle right next to it in this scenario, evidence that the shockwave isn't that powerful at the edge?
If it had a PSI of 20 by the time it expanded 5km, and it continued to expand, the castle would've been hit with a violent shockwave that would certainly affect its integrity. At the very least, shouldn't we use a lower PSI value?
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That's not how it's being applied. I already said this earlier, but the airburst is as large as the sandstorm was. This isn't just the furthest visible effect from the shockwave, it's the actual explosion size.
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The ground detonation end is also fine yeah, but I don't want to yield because the air detonation end still works in my opinion.
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I disagree with you on that for the reasons I laid out earlier.
I don't think there's anything else for me to add currently.
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Everything that I talked about for why I don't think the explosion is that big.
I think one thing that we need to remember here is that it is the same bomb; whether it detonates on the ground or in the air. If you calculate it detonating it in the air to be at a certain level of power, then the bomb detonating on the ground has that same level of power. Which means if you're arguing that it is strong enough to destroy everything up to 18 kilometres away in the air, that destructive force is still being unleashed at ground level and it'll have about the same reach. The ground does not absorb 95%+ of the energy unleashed by the bomb. Which is why I argued that what you're calculating contradicts what we're told about the bomb's effects; the bomb isn't meant to destroy the entire city. Lifting the bomb into the air doesn't multiply its power and destructive effects by thirty times.
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The fact that it had enough power to make a crater 5 kilometers in diameter proves that it definitely had as much energy as the air detonation. In fact, calcing just the crater from the ground detonation gets the explosion closer to 7-A.
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I've said which end I think we should go with. If we need more input from staff (well, we need more staff support for the CRT anyway), then I'll wait for them to comment.
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crt gets turned to cgm thread part 85
here's what we'll do
i'll go and make a cgm thread about the other calc to see what method's better
we work with the ground boom method now cause i'm not letting this get derailed to hell cause people don't like a calc
here's what we'll do
i'll go and make a cgm thread about the other calc to see what method's better
we work with the ground boom method now cause i'm not letting this get derailed to hell cause people don't like a calc
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Just want to say, no derailing was intended. I only noticed the issue after Stefano's comments. In hindsight, opening up a CGM thread would've been better but I didn't think it would be so controversial.
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that's fine
in the meantime, is the scaling fine?
in the meantime, is the scaling fine?
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Sorry, forgot to reply to KT. I'll go back over the OP and the rest of the posts in the thread when I have some time, likely give my vote tomorrow.
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Having gone back over the OP, and the thread, I agree with the proposal's with the exception of which end of the Pell calc to go with, as mentioned.
For there to be separate keys between the characters, there has to be significant enough difference between them, either in the abilities or the ratings. The characters being assumed to be vaguely higher in the arcs after Alabasta isn't enough, especially if they don't have any feats that surpass what they scale to in Alabasta. If they were getting their scaling primarily from Skypeia arc feats, then I could see there being an issue with trying to backscale the characters to Alabasta arc, but right now it's the reverse where the characters are getting their scaling from Alabasta.
Just because the Skypiea characters don't have higher AP feats doesn't instantly mean the keys should be merged since it's directly stated characters get stronger each island
For there to be separate keys between the characters, there has to be significant enough difference between them, either in the abilities or the ratings. The characters being assumed to be vaguely higher in the arcs after Alabasta isn't enough, especially if they don't have any feats that surpass what they scale to in Alabasta. If they were getting their scaling primarily from Skypeia arc feats, then I could see there being an issue with trying to backscale the characters to Alabasta arc, but right now it's the reverse where the characters are getting their scaling from Alabasta.
Lilybitdun
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That's exactly what's happening tho
The Alabasta high tiers are getting MHS+ from Skypiea (Hence why all the new profiles are MHS+), and if the High 7-C version of the calc gets used they would also get Low 7-B from Skypiea due to key merge
Skypiea only get scaling from Alabasta if the 7-B version of Pell's durability is used, otherwise they just have higher showings
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Hmm, I'm not sure about the Low 7-B ratings sticking; IIRC there were some issues with some of the calcs like Wyper's Burn Bazooka and the Reject Dial, which was leading to them being removed or re-calced.
You may have a good point with the speed ratings though. Not sure about all of the Alabasta arc characters scaling to MHS+.
You may have a good point with the speed ratings though. Not sure about all of the Alabasta arc characters scaling to MHS+.
Lilybitdun
She/Her- 2,449
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Can you elaborate on this, cause just saying rage zenkai boosts doesn't help
Also wouldn't arguing Luffy is getting stronger each time he's near-death hurt your own point? He just had an extreme diff fight with Crocodile, nearly dying from poison, the previous arc. His Skypeia self would just be stronger than his Alabasta version with that logic
GodlyCharmander
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I've pointed this out before, but no one batted an eye on my reply, so let me try saying it again directly to a calc group member.
Both the air burst and the ground blast formulas use 20 PSI for their calculation, which unmistakably assumes that at the very edge of the shockwaves will have enough pressure to cause near-total fatalities. The consequence is that the shockwave would continue to expand past that point at a regular fall out thanks to the Law of Conservation of Energy.
But in the ground blast, it is stated that Crocodile will be resting at the castle, where the blast wave will not reach it, implying that, the castle's structure, which is just a few meters away from the blast range, will be completely unaffected by the shockwave. Wouldn't that necessarily imply that, at the edge of the blast, the pressure is much lower than 20 PSI, lower enough that it wouldn't affect anything once it extended a few meters?
You get it?
At 5km, the expected pressure to anyone in that range is 20 PSI per our calcs, but at 5.1km, the PSI is not enough to damage concrete? Doesn't work. It's logically failing.
Same applies to the air burst, we have to reason to believe we should use anything higher than 5 PSI, honestly.
I don't mind the scaling if it ultimately chooses to go with Low 7-B (although that has problems too), but that is a concern of mine when it comes to the Alubarna stuff.
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Save this for the CGT that will be made
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Crazy cause i told some of these mfs the plan offsite and they're in here acting brand new.
we're removing the low 7-B calcs involving the trees, not the beanstalk.
we're using the low end of the pell calc for now and the support will be the reject dial backscaling
there is no problems with the reject dial calc. i didn't note it here because the thread revolved around the pell calculation
we're removing the low 7-B calcs involving the trees, not the beanstalk.
we're using the low end of the pell calc for now and the support will be the reject dial backscaling
there is no problems with the reject dial calc. i didn't note it here because the thread revolved around the pell calculation
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Okay, I'm fine with that for now. I just think it'll be worth taking a closer look at the speed ratings in the future.
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