1-A matchups?

[Antvasima]

Hello.

A while ago we started to allow matchups between 1-A characters. I was always reluctant to accept the suggestion, since we simply do not have enough know-how to properly evaluate the differences between such characters, and reducing such complicated evaluations to popularity contests seems like a bad idea.

Here is the latest example of that it does not seem to properly work out, and I read that another match between Reinhard Heydrich and Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics) did not work out either:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/853233

So, my question is if we should cease to allow them again? DarkLK, who used to be positive to the idea, now seems to have changed his mind after seeing it fail in practice.

Note: Staff only.

 

[DarkLK]

Anyway, there is a feeling that only those who create pages and respect threads for 1-A characters can try to compare them. But apparently not many of these people want to do this.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I for one was always against it. It will almost always devolve into my omnipotent is higher than yours.

Imo, it's pretty much pointless to debate something we don't understand. Like trying to discuss thermonuclear astrophysics with grade schoolers.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Gemmysaur.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I've honestly never been for 1-A debates due to the fact that they are extremely hard to guage overall. Like, how would one even compare the likes of Reinhard when fighting say Eternity in terms of overall power? It is quite difficult to guage overall and as Gemmy stated, devolves into "My level of 1-A is apparently higher than yours." Some people can do this, but a majority likely cannot.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm neutral with 1-A matches. I don't like them, but I wouldn't ban them either.

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't agree at all.

It's not our concern if people can't debate 1-A matches, without sounding rude or mean, we can barely debate the lower tiers as well. It's not a problem of the tier, it's the people in the debate themselves and their methods.

I don't like Gemmy's example because the same can be said about any other tier. Just replace "omnipotence" with either "attack potency" or "hax" and it's the same thing. All other factors are practically ignored when in actuality fights don't work like that since the contenders should have comparable AP anyways.

1-A is no different. High 1-A and 0 are impossible to determine. 1-A fights can be discussed, compared, etc. Anyone knowledgeable in the tier knows that much. Myself included.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Sera. With also shouldn't ban things because we don't like them.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, DarkLK or Sera could properly argue about such matchups, but 99% of our members could likely not.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I personally think to debate who would win between two 1-A characters to be fruitless.

Here is the thing, when dealing with dimensions and higher infinities. The reason a higher or lower dimensional being looks so foreign and exotic and power is because they are well, on a higher plane of infinity. Their concepts they share with us WILL look different. However, for 1-A beings, all the concepts we can compare and piece together between dimensioned beings cannot be applied. They work differently. They have their own tiering system tier 11 to 1 that we cannot comprehend or compare. Most of the abilities they have is PIS and useless for 1-A standards. We cannot comprehend, or even know, if "victory" is merely a dimensioned concept. Its fruitless, and it should be banned. Comparing the abilities stated on their profile is like comparing negative dimensional attributes to us. Its irrelevant.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The problem with 1-A matches is that you need in depth knowledge about the characters to debate them, the average member won't have such knowledge to be able to debate them, honestly what i think we should do is only allow 1-A match ups if people have in depth knowledge of the characters, so before the match up is allowed have 2 people, one who knows 1 character in depth, and the another who knows the other character in depth, have both of those people alone try to debate the characters, doesn't mean the general public can't give their opinion but you at the very least need 2 people who understand the characters in depth so the match up can work.

I honestly wouldn't care though if we altogether banned 1-A matches cause really imo vs matches get boring when characters hit tier 1 since hax and abilities don't really factor much anymore, it's just a matter of who is more powerful, and then to determine such things you need someone with in depth knowledge of both characters, you can't just look at the profiles and do it that way anymore.

So in short to make 1-A matches work you need people who in depth knowledge of the characters to debate each other, and not the general public.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Celestial

I generally agree that these matches are difficult to have, but they shouldn't be banned because some people have difficulties discussing them, or rather because you or whoever dislike them / find them boring.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Matt I am neutral on whether they should be banned or not i personally think they are boring, however doesn't mean other people should be stopped from having them.

We have to however admit that the average member won't be able to properly debate these characters, you need members with in depth knowledge of the characters for it to work.

 

[FanofRPGs]

@Celestial
I generally agree that these matches are difficult to have, but they shouldn't be banned because some people have difficulties discussing them, or rather because you or whoever dislike them / find them boring.

They should not be banned for that reason. Most fights above high 2-A are boring.

The fact is 1-A means the character is dimensionless, beyond dimenisons, beyond all concepts every dimensional existence holds in some form. In most ways 1-A is its own tiering system, but how they tier it, even the concept of tiers, does not exist in any form dimensioned being would begin to grasp. We cannot compare or measure them in the slightest, as even the dimensioned concept of comparison means something absolutely infinitesimally miniscule to 1-A beings. What we do see, I.E abilities they use and pictures we see of them are mere PIS written by the writers because a real 1-A ability would be impossible for him to comprehend.

This is not like high 2-A or 1-C to high 1-B battles, where abilities might still be relevant if they are on the dimensional scale (I mean we have 3-D matches where a much weaker character haxstomps), as the concepts of these abilities are still in place just in a weird form. Temperature, time, space, while all different and skewed dew to the nature of higher dimensional spaces, still exist in some. No, all these abilities and concepts which remain in dimensions are nonexistent to a 1-A being.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not exactly, Fan. You can discuss 1-A fights comparing abilities, power, etc. It's just hard.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but again, the vast majority of our members are unable to do so, and then any such matchups end up as popularity contests.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Not exactly, Fan. You can discuss 1-A fights comparing abilities, power, etc. It's just hard.

Their abilities are literally irrelevant, useless. Will Elder God Demonbane's size alteration be useful when size itself is an irrelevant concept? Nearly every one of the abilities they have take dimensioned concepts and make them sound as OP as a dimensioned concept can, but they are still irrelevant.

For power, yes, you can compare power after strenuous research, like how one could theoretically find the 4-D volume of a Tesseract with an inch ruler. Tier 1-A is literally a tieirng system of its own. The difference between two 1-As can be the difference between a 3-C character and a 9-A character. And how are we supposed to know when comparing their concept of tiers is like comparing and apple to a brick? We have know way at all to know how deep they are into 1-A except by scaling with other characters, when the conditions of being 1-A makes their very power esoteric, let alone comparing them to 1-As of another another verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Actually, as far as I understand, the difference between 1-A characters can be the difference between 11-C and High 1-B.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Actually, as far as I understand, the difference between 1-A characters can be the difference between 11-C and High 1-B.

Yes, I was just making an example. I am trying to say 1-A is a tiering system of its own, we just cannot comprehend how to measure it so we just dump it as one sub-tier.

 

[Antvasima]

I definitely agree about that.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Are you guys done complaining about our new "allowance" of 1-A matchups or no?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is a rather important issue, so we need to discuss whether or not it is a good idea.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Someone should have brought it up sooner if they thought it really was. All i hear and see are just complaints yet no action is ever brought up until now.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Well, it is a rather important issue, so we need to discuss whether or not it is a good idea.

It is not, as we cannot properly quantify it by comparing (useless and PIS) abilities or by comparing power. Assertions that you can come from using methods only dimensioned beings follow under, which 1-A beings don't.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So basically everyting up to High 1-B is how much we can properly debate on, right...^

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with Sera for the most part honestly. When have we ever banned a character on the basis of "not too many people know this person well enough to properly debate with them"?

I think too many people wank or downplay Saitama in match ups he's in. Maybe I should ban him because I and a couple others are the only worthy fans who can speak of him.

If the basis for banning 1-As is that they are too unquanfiable and/or will inevitably end in an inconclusive with little to no proper arguments to be made, then sure thing. But I don't think we should ban them only due to people "not getting them".

 

[FanofRPGs]

So basically everyting up to High 1-B is how much we can properly debate on, right...^

Yes, because while they have skewed versions of their concepts, they in fact still hold a version of it that we can somewhat understand, such as time, temperature, speed, etc. We can compare these factors with their abilities, their power (Gets hard there for higher dimensional beings, as each dimension is its own tier 10-C to high 3-A), etc.

For 1-A beings, we get none such of these helping factors to compare, and we have no true way to measure or compare them.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I used to be firmly against it, but since DarkLK thought that it might work out, I eventually allowed it. However, now DarkLK seems to have changed his mind, given that the idea does not work in practice.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Considering what happened in that one Masada vs Umineko fight, i can see why.

 

[FanofRPGs]

It does not, in fact. I think we should take note that the nature of many attacks described for 1-A beings count as a form of PIS, as in reality a true 1-A being would be doing stuff not quantiable in the slightest.

 

[Ryukama]

This is just like Composite Goku. I'm fine with the change itself but not a fan of the reason being given.

I'm overall neutral to whether or not you guys want to ban 1-A. If 1-A is too unquantifiable, and hard to make logical points towards due to their nature, fine. But I don't think we should ban a certain character only because not too many people know of them too well. Since such a reason seems rather arbitrary and a practice we wouldn't at all accept for most others. With even a little hint of some elitism.

If people made horrible arguments for a matchup that got accepted, make a post on the Thread Removal Requests or a CRT debunking the fallacious points. If you're reasonable enough the thread will simply get removed. Same we do for all other match ups. We don't ban the character out of fear that bad arguments will be made.

 

[Antvasima]

If the basis for banning 1-As is that they are too unquanfiable and/or will inevitably end in an inconclusive with little to no proper arguments to be made, then sure thing.

This is the case, yes.

 

[Ryukama]

If the basis for banning 1-As is that they are too unquanfiable and/or will inevitably end in an inconclusive with little to no proper arguments to be made, then sure thing.

This is the case, yes.

Okay then I'm completely fine with these match ups being banned.

 

[VenomElite]

I agree with Sera and Ryu. I also agree with Cross. All people are doing is complaining because they don't like something.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I agree with Sera, Ryu and Ven

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

As someone who also complains like every one else, that's basically it.

 

[Kaltias]

What's the problem with people needing knowledge about the characters though? Basically everything higher than tier 2 starts being foreign and you need quite a lot of knowledge about the characters.

Also, the difference between two High 1-B can quite literally be infinite degrees of infinity, so i don't really see the problem with the AP gap between two 1-A characters being potentially massive. And as others said, you can try to compare feats. It's difficult, but you can.

And i don't really see the problem with a 1-A character stopping time against another 1-A even if they aren't bounded by it. We have people on this wiki who can soulscrew soulless beings. It isn't because its PIS, but because it's fiction. Impossible and nonsensical things happen all the time.

The fact that people can't debate them properly doesn't warrant a ban. It just means that you should leave the debate to those who know the characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we will end up with quite a lot of unreliable popularity contest results if we allow 1-A and High 1-B matchups, give that the vast majority of participants are not able to distinguish the qualitative differences between the power levels of the characters.

 

[Antvasima]

However, I am open for other solutions.

 

[FanofRPGs]

1-A is not quantifiably above high 1-B, its just above it in such an abstract sense NO dimensioned being would understand it.

I think you need to rememeber what higher infinities even are. Infinity is all, every number, absolutely every number possible from 0.42211 to 5 centillion to more. Infinity is endless, the largest thing as it is everything, there is no beginning or end... like zero... The concept of higher infinities states that our infinity is but a mere zero to other beings' infinities. And their infinities are mere zeroes to higher beings. This goes on, and soon we go full circle and the amount of times this process of higher infinities goes on infinitely, and we have a dimensional plane for every number, each time infinitely larger. High 1-B literally is the limit for all logic, all concepts by which we hold, as it literally is everything that can be. 1-A beings are somehow bypassing this, they don't even follow dimensions and any concepts dimensional existence holds. Temperature, time, speed, etc... Its all below them, any concept we used to quantify characters, and we could to some degree even for higher dimensional beings, are gone. They are not quantifiably larger than infinite dimensions, infinite dimensions is literally infinite diemsions. If someone is infinitely stronger than a high 1-B being, they are still high 1-B. As infinity times infinity + a higher infinity is still infinity. 1-A beings bypass any quantification all together and are absolutely boundless in comparison, they are just "above" it.

Abilities 1-A beings use, such as Demonbane's size alteration, is mere PIS, absolutely useless and miniscule for 1-A standards. Their mere appearance is PIS, as they should have no form any dimensioned being could concieve. We cannot compare their power, as 1-A is its own tiering system all-together which is just as big as tier 11-C to high 1-B, but we cannot even begin to EVER comprehend it. As an analogy, a fight between two 1-As may be like a fight between Beyonder and the Monarch of Flatland, but how the hell are we supposed to know? All we know is one being is beyond dimensions, and another stomps him (Is victory even a 1-A concept, or is it something far more abstract?) but we have no proof to how much stronger they are as numbers or scaling are dimensioned concepts innaplicable to 1-A beings. It is basically impossible to quantify 1-A beings within their own verse, let alone compare them to 1-A beings of other verses.

So in conclusion, no. 1-A matches should be banned, its not due to being "too hard," literally Beyonder or the Living Tribunal themselves would have just as hard of a time quantifying 1-A beings. 1-A matches just don't work, they go any dimensioned being's head, and cannot be compared.