A monkey fights a little hedgehog

[sanicspood]

1) He can't increase his AP without zenkais and that requires him both to be in a near death state, and recover from it. Chances of that happening here are quite low. This isn't Goku Black we're talking about who can abuse zenkais

2) Debateable, since Sonic not only scales far above another Low 2-C, but someone who casually did a Low 2-C feat with a wave of his hand

1) I just said that Goku Saiyan biology makes him get stronger during battle. don't know why ur repeating this. and no its more than likely that his power would increase. since sonic is really relative to him his power will only grow faster becuz the stronger the opponent the more powerful goku can become when fighting said opponent

2) ok? someone merged into a literal universe and he scales above it. don't see how that's impressive.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well if that causes the fight to drag on then goku has reactive power level and gets immensely stronger by just fighting, proof is in the TOP.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well if that causes the fight to drag on then goku has reactive power level and gets immensely stronger by just fighting, proof is in the TOP.

He only got stronger after getting healed first, like what happened after Frieza gave him a part of his energy after Goku dropped from UIO in Episode 111

And later he was healed too after Episode 116 when he fought Kefla, once again in UIO and he was completely drained after that, so he definitely recieved some energy after that

 

[sanicspood]

He only got stronger after getting healed first, like what happened after Frieza gave him a part of his energy after Goku dropped from UIO in Episode 111

And later he was healed too after Episode 116 when he fought Kefla, once again in UIO and he was completely drained after that, so he definitely recieved some energy after that

ok? but he was also getting stronger through multiple fights in the series. its literally stated that he gots stronger mid-battle

like jiren literally stated that his and vegetas strikes were getting sharper and sharper with each hit.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No that's different from zenkai. Saiyans get stronger DURING the fight, this is different from zenkais, like UI was getting stronger and stronger the more he fought jiren and there are also other examples of him getting better and better during other fights too.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1) I just said that Goku Saiyan biology makes him get stronger during battle. don't know why ur repeating this. and no its more than likely that his power would increase. since sonic is really relative to him his power will only grow faster becuz the stronger the opponent the more powerful goku can become when fighting said opponent

2) ok? someone merged into a literal universe and he scales above it. don't see how that's impressive.

1) Reactive Power Level (As a Saiyan, Goku grows stronger every time he fights and can become stronger in the midst of combat, vastly increasing in strength whenever he is mortally injured, and when he fought Jiren in Ultra Instinct -Sign-, his attacks were getting stronger, faster, and sharper over time)

That passive increase only happens in his Ultra Instict form. In all other cases, Goku need to get injured and then healed to get a zeknai

2) Merging with the Universe is just Baseline Low 2-C. Any Low 2-C that has Universal+ range can destroy them by the sole virtue of being Low 2-C. Darkspine Sonic did a baseline Low 2-C feat, effortlessly and with only a wave of his hand. That is definitely not baseline

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No that's different from zenkai. Saiyans get stronger DURING the fight, this is different from zenkais, like UI was getting stronger and stronger the more he fought jiren and there are also other examples of him getting better and better during other fights too.

Well this isn't UI Goku. It's SSB Goku. That thing only applies to Ultra Instinct due the nature of the form, as Goku was perfecting it more and more against Jiren

 

[sanicspood]

1) Reactive Power Level (As a Saiyan, Goku grows stronger every time he fights and can become stronger in the midst of combat, vastly increasing in strength whenever he is mortally injured, and when he fought Jiren in Ultra Instinct -Sign-, his attacks were getting stronger, faster, and sharper over time)

That passive increase only happens in his Ultra Instict form. In all other cases, Goku need to get injured and then healed to get a zeknai

2) Merging with the Universe is just Baseline Low 2-C. Any Low 2-C that has Universal+ range can destroy them by the sole virtue of being Low 2-C. Darkspine Sonic did a baseline Low 2-C feat, effortlessly and with only a wave of his hand. That is definitely not baseline

no it doesnt lmao. theres blatant examples when he gets stronger when he is not in UI.

 

[sanicspood]

and that reactive pl statement was just using ultra instinct as an example. doesn't mean he only gets stronger IN ultra instinct

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

no it doesnt lmao. theres blatant examples when he gets stronger when he is not in UI.

Then show me scenes where that happened. I'm waiting

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Bruh in the same sentence it says "As a Saiyan, Goku grows stronger every time he fights and can become stronger in the midst of combat", and there are examples with him getting stronger in the middle of the fight like SSB goku and vegeta vs Jiren, there is also the countless times goku broke his limits like when he absorbed the genkidama and got naturally stronger and unlocked ultra instinct (his base got stronger from that too).

 

[sanicspood]

Then show me scenes where that happened. I'm waiting

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Bruh in the same sentence it says "As a Saiyan, Goku grows stronger every time he fights and can become stronger in the midst of combat", and there are examples with him getting stronger in the middle of the fight like SSB goku and vegeta vs Jiren, there is also the countless times goku broke his limits like when he absorbed the genkidama and got naturally stronger and unlocked ultra instinct (his base got stronger from that too).

Goku nearly died when he tried to resist the spirit bomb, and that triggered UIO, giving him an increase in power that allowed him to battle Jiren for a while.

However he only recieved the boost itself after Frieza healed him. There's literally nothing that suggest his base got any stronger after the spirit bomb, only that his new UIO form was >>>> Goku's SSBKK20 form.

 

[VegetaFan756]

Anyway i vote Goku

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1) You show me a clip about UI Goku when I asked examples that don't involve the form? Also Goku breaking his limits is not a standard condition and only happens when Goku is pushed to his limit. And even then, not always (such as against Perfect Cell, or Kid Buu, or Golden Frieza)

2) Uh, why are you showing Broly here? Broly's power clearly works in a completely different way than Goku and Vegeta and is built on his ever increasing rage. This doesn't prove anything about Goku

3) Goku literally used so much ki here he broke his arms there. Also Fused Zamasu was clearly underestimating Goku, which led to his undoing

 

[sanicspood]

1) You show me a clip about UI Goku when I asked examples that don't involve the form? Also Goku breaking his limits is not a standard condition and only happens when Goku is pushed to his limit. And even then, not always (such as against Perfect Cell, or Kid Buu, or Golden Frieza)

2) Uh, why are you showing Broly here? Broly's power clearly works in a completely different way than Goku and Vegeta and is built on his ever increasing rage. This doesn't prove anything about Goku

3) Goku literally used so much ki here he broke his arms there. Also Fused Zamasu was clearly underestimating Goku, which led to his undoing

1) i showed u that clip because vegeta was not only talking about goku he was talking about every saiyan who broke their limits mid fight in the t.o.p

2) that specific scene broly never used much rage at the start and was just actively getting stronger just by fighting ssj vegeta. plus there both saiyan their abilities aren't fully different.

3) goku was literally getting bodied by zamasu before this scene and overpowered an attack ssb vegeta and ss2 trunks were having trouble with. not to mention the attack goku did actually affected zamasu. not really he was already beaten by vegeta and trunks why would he be underestimating?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yup and that increase in power is reactive evolution, it increased his base forms power because he was matching caulifula and kale in SSJ.
And broly is literally a perfect example for this, he was losing to base vegeta then was able to match SSJ vegeta by just getting better at fighting like vegeta said.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1) i showed u that clip because vegeta was not only talking about goku he was talking about every saiyan who broke their limits mid fight in the t.o.p

2) that specific scene broly never used much rage and was just actively getting stronger just by fighting vegeta. plus there both saiyan their abilities aren't fully different.

3) goku was literally getting bodied by zamasu before this scene and overpowered an attack ssb vegeta and ss2 trunks were having trouble with. not to mention the attack goku did actually affected zamasu

1) Ok, but still, limit breaking is something very specific and can't really happen in all occasions

2) But that's the point. Broly was getting stronger becuase his powers are based around his rage. This is something that is unique to Broly and shouldn't br used to prove things for Goku. While all Saiyans gets stronger with a rage boost, none of them constantly grows in power from being enraged aside from Broly

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yup and that increase in power is reactive evolution, it increased his base forms power because he was matching caulifula and kale in SSJ.
And broly is literally a perfect example for this, he was losing to base vegeta then was able to match SSJ vegeta by just getting better at fighting like vegeta said.

Broly's power works completely differently than Goku and Vegeta's. It was clearly said in the movie that Broly's power go higher and higher the more enraged he is, as well as him posessing far greater potential than both Goku and Vegeta

 

[sanicspood]

1) Ok, but still, limit breaking is something very specific and can't really happen in all occasions

2) But that's the point. Broly was getting stronger becuase his powers are based around his rage. This is something that is unique to Broly and shouldn't br used to prove things for Goku. While all Saiyans gets stronger with a rage boost, none of them constantly grows in power from being enraged aside from Broly

1) not really for saiyans

2) ok but in that very scene against ssj vegeta he wasnt even pissed or mad he was just fighting cuz he was ordered and just got stronger and stronger to thee point where he forced vegeta to go god. not until he went ikari he really got droved mad.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Oh also goku black who became stronger than SSB even though he was comparable to SSJ2 and also when he was pushed so hard that he pulled a scythe out his ass. And broly is still a saiyan and the example I was talking about wasn't even a power increase, he literally observed vegeta's fighting and was able to counter attack. Like the first time he attacked vegeta, vegeta blocked easily but the next time he used the same attack he hit a different spot in vegeta and vegeta commented that he is getting better as he fights.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1) not for saiyans

2) ok but in that very scene against ssj vegeta he wasnt even pissed or mad he was just fighting cuz he was ordered and just got stronger and stronger to thee point where he forced vegeta to go god. not until he went ikari he really got droved mad.

1) You realize what "limit breaking" is right? This is when a saiyan is literally pushed to his limits, and manages to break through them, becoming much stronger (such as with UIO Goku and SSBE Vegeta)

2) Broly was definitely mad well before he went Ikari. Even against that Frieza soldier brute he was getting angry very quickly and forced Paragus to shock him

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Oh also goku black who became stronger than SSB even though he was comparable to SSJ2 and also when he was pushed so hard that he pulled a scythe out his ass. And broly is still a saiyan and the example I was talking about wasn't even a power increase, he literally observed vegeta's fighting and was able to counter attack. Like the first time he attacked vegeta, vegeta blocked easily but the next time he used the same attack he hit a different spot in vegeta and vegeta commented that he is getting better as he fights.

Goku Black is a special case. Since he can exploit zenkais even without much damage and without needing to heal from them.

Literally no other saiyan is able to abuse zenkais as much as Goku Black can, so using Goku Black isn't a very good example

 

[sanicspood]

1) You realize what "limit breaking" is right? This is when a saiyan is literally pushed to his limits, and manages to break through them, becoming much stronger (such as with UIO Goku and SSBE Vegeta)

2) Broly was definitely mad well before he went Ikari. Even against that Frieza soldier brute he was getting angry very quickly and forced Paragus to shock him

1) ok but u can argue in this very fight that sonic will just push goku to break his limits here anyways

2) false equivalence. that freeza soldier was annoying chelai which caused him to already go mad. here he was literally ordered to fight vegeta without really knowing who he was in the first place. I mean he prob did but he didn't have any personal gripes he has against him. he was just fighting normally and pushed vegeta to go god.

 

[sanicspood]

Goku Black is a special case. Since he can exploit zenkais even without much damage and without needing to heal from them.

Literally no other saiyan is able to abuse zenkais as much as Goku Black can, so using Goku Black isn't a very good example

thats manga black. anime black was literally just getting stronger fighting as well. to the point where he got pushed to rose

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1) ok but u can argue in this very fight that sonic will just push goku to break his limits here anyways

2) false equivalence. that freeza soldier was annoying chelai which caused him to already go mad. here he was literally ordered to fight vegeta without really knowing who he was in the first place. I mean he prob did but he didn't have any personal gripes he has against him. he was just fighting normally and pushed vegeat to go god.

1) Even if that will happen, then it will happen much later into the fight, so this isn't a starting point either

2) Broly quickly became angry aftef Vegeta was blocking his attacks and punching him and such, Broly has anger issues and is quick to get angry, especially in fights. This is literally why he even have the collar in the first place

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Apparently according to you, every example is a special case. Why is goku black a special case when it's literally just goku's body. And broly is still a saiyan who showed rapid improvement and high potential which goku and vegeta also are. This is supported by the TOP examples. Also saiyans train by fighting one another, this is how goku and gohan got strong in the time chamber, they didn't bench weights they sparred everyday and had no senzus to abuse.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

thats manga black. anime black was literally just getting stronger fighting as well. to the point where he got pushed to rose

No, I actually do refer to anime Black. Black got zenkais when:

1) After the fight with Goku, which the results we see in their second fight
2) When SSB Goku got enraged and started to stomp Black, and when Goku was about to finish him off, Black zenkai-ed and reversed the stomp
3) After his match against SSB Vegeta, where he also acquired the sickle of sorrow

 

[sanicspood]

1) Even if that will happen, then it will happen much later into the fight, so this isn't a starting point either

2) Broly quickly became angry aftef Vegeta was blocking his attacks and punching him and such, Broly has anger issues and is quick to get angry, especially in fights. This is literally why he even have the collar in the first place

2) i could go on with this point but there are multiple other points to prove they get stronger mid-battle like fighting caulifa and kale, fighting jiren in blue, fighting zamasu (which u didn't really refute) the list goes on

 

[sanicspood]

No, I actually do refer to anime Black. Black got zenkais when:

1) After the fight with Goku, which the results we see in their second fight
2) When SSB Goku got enraged and started to stomp Black, and when Goku was about to finish him off, Black zenkai-ed and reversed the stomp
3) After his match against SSB Vegeta, where he also acquired the sickle of sorrow

dude thats not how zenkais work at all. once u heal from the break of death u get stronger. black shows no proof of actually being healed from anyone. in fact, all the points u mentioned just proves he got stronger threw fighting even more cuz none of those were zenkais

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

2) i could go on with this point but there are multiple other points to prove they get stronger mid-battle like fighting caulifa and kale, fighting jiren in blue, fighting zamasu (which u didn't really refute) the list goes on

Goku didn't got stronger from fighting Caulifla and Kale, they were the ones who became stronger. Goku fought Jiren better in blue only because he was much stronger than the first time he battled him in blue. He also didn't got stronger while fighting Zamasu. He just used a limit breaking kamehameha (which broke both of his arms due to being so much above his limit)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

dude thats not how zenkais work at all. once u heal from the break of death u get stronger. black shows no proof of actually being healed from anyone. in fact, all the points u mentioned just proves he got stronger threw fighting even more cuz none of those were zenkais

From the dragon ball wikia:

In the anime, Goku Black made liberal use of Saiyan Power as part of his plan to insure his rise as the strongest warrior in the multiverse, deliberately keeping his power low enough for his foes to inflict enough damage on him to imprint on. From this, it ultimately allowed him to obtain his Super Saiyan Rosé form and likewise enhance his techniques. In the anime, seemingly due to his natural access to godly ki, his Saiyan Power was especially potent, letting him seemingly never get tired from how fast he would recover. While base Black was heavily damaged by Super Saiyan 2 Goku, upon recovering, base Black fought on par with Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta while virtually unfazed by the latter's attacks. When taking a savage assault from an enraged Super Saiyan Blue Goku, once recovering, Black's power boost evolve his energy blade, letting him quickly defeat Goku. Later, when Future Trunks unlocked Super Saiyan Rage, while initially the hybrid was unfazed by Super Saiyan Rosé Black's attacks and soon simultaneously pummeled Black and Future Zamasu, once Black recovered from the assault, his power increased to quickly overwhelm Future Trunks again. Interesting enough, Goku Black doesn't need to be healed to gain an increase, as long as he has even a short amount of time to recover, he can freely make use of Saiyan Power.

 

[sanicspood]

From the dragon ball wikia:

In the anime, Goku Black made liberal use of Saiyan Power as part of his plan to insure his rise as the strongest warrior in the multiverse, deliberately keeping his power low enough for his foes to inflict enough damage on him to imprint on. From this, it ultimately allowed him to obtain his Super Saiyan Rosé form and likewise enhance his techniques. In the anime, seemingly due to his natural access to godly ki, his Saiyan Power was especially potent, letting him seemingly never get tired from how fast he would recover. While base Black was heavily damaged by Super Saiyan 2 Goku, upon recovering, base Black fought on par with Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta while virtually unfazed by the latter's attacks. When taking a savage assault from an enraged Super Saiyan Blue Goku, once recovering, Black's power boost evolve his energy blade, letting him quickly defeat Goku. Later, when Future Trunks unlocked Super Saiyan Rage, while initially the hybrid was unfazed by Super Saiyan Rosé Black's attacks and soon simultaneously pummeled Black and Future Zamasu, once Black recovered from the assault, his power increased to quickly overwhelm Future Trunks again. Interesting enough, Goku Black doesn't need to be healed to gain an increase, as long as he has even a short amount of time to recover, he can freely make use of Saiyan Power.

this doesn't help two of ur points

black literally stated that after that beat down by Goku he got stronger or his anger made him feel good implying that cuz of that beat down alone he got stronger. not because of recovering that wiki is blatantly wrong on that one

this says nothing about black acquiring the sickle of arrow (the sythe) he also said that hes using vegetas way (anger) and turned it into power which that paragraph does not mention once

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yeah there is overwhelming evidence that saiyans naturally get stronger during fights which means that it isn't exclusive to UI and makes the UI examples valid.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

this doesn't help two of ur points

black literally stated that after that beat down by Goku he got stronger. not because of recovering that wiki is blatantly wrong on that one

this says nothing about black acquiring the sickle of arrow (the sythe) he also said that hes using vegetas way (anger) and turned it into power which that paragraph does not mention once

Uh no, Zamasu also clearly says his power surged up. And this was because of the beatdown he previously recieved from Goku

Also you completely ignored the last line where it's clearly stated Goku Black doesn't need to heal in order to recieve a zenkai boost. As for the sickle of sorrow, this is more valid, but this is just black using a rage boost much like how any other saiyan can

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah there is overwhelming evidence that saiyans naturally get stronger during fights which means that it isn't exclusive to UI and makes the UI examples valid.

Never said the UI examples aren't valid

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I mean valid as proof for saiyans improving as they fight, since it also applies outside the UI form.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean valid as proof for saiyans improving as they fight, since it also applies outside the UI form.

That's more reasonable, but still, that doesn't happen all the time (such as against Perfect Cell, or in any part of the Frieza or Buu Saga), and when it does happen, usually it happens when said saiyans are pushed to their limits

 

[sanicspood]

Uh no, Zamasu also clearly says his power surged up. And this was because of the beatdown he previously recieved from Goku

Also you completely ignored the last line where it's clearly stated Goku Black doesn't need to heal in order to recieve a zenkai boost. As for the sickle of sorrow, this is more valid, but this is just black using a rage boost much like how any other saiyan can

yes he said his power surged up becuz he got stronger from: the beatdown.

i ignored it becuz that's never been stated from an official source nor in the show. its just made-up speculation. the only time he makes a full recovery is when goku fought black the second time.

because he was much stronger than the first time he battled him in blue. He also didn't got stronger while fighting Zamasu. He just used a limit breaking kamehameha (which broke both of his arms due to being so much above his limit)

the last time he was fighting jiren in blue he was getting bodied. I could argue he didn't even really get a zenkai from freeza. or at least one enough to boost his power to contend with jiren in blue. freeza just gave him enough power to actually stand and eventually overtime goku was gaining his strength back

again I can argue he can break his limits and overpower sonic enough to damage him hard or eventually kill him

 

[sanicspood]

That's more reasonable, but still, that doesn't happen all the time (such as against Perfect Cell, or in any part of the Frieza or Buu Saga), and when it does happen, usually it happens when said saiyans are pushed to their limits

thats becuz it was more explored in super i like said earlier. its more than likely to happen in this fight