About Speed Scaling

[SuperSwordMaster1]

So I've seen that everyone scales to Frisk who dodges Vulkin's lightning magic. However, what exactly implies it's the same speed as real lightning? This seems like taking Star's "Turbo Nuclear Butterfly Blast" as having the same power as an actual nuke.

 

[Juggerton]

Lol.prepare for it

 

[Anonimoe7875]

It coming from a cloud made by a volcano...

And Frisk already dodged lightning from machines

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogNHObCZjwU&t=5m42s

 

[Anonimoe7875]

I was referring to box form lightning, but meh...

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogNHObCZjwU&t=5m42s

What about that proves it's real lightning?

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

It coming from a cloud made by a volcano...
And Frisk already dodged lightning from machines

Again, how does that prove it's real lightning? Monsters are stated to use magic when they attack you, and the lightning attack only ever happens when Vulkin himself is about to attack.


Which machines specifically?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Real life vulcano can create lightning through clouds

So are we gonna downgrade every character that dodge "magic" lightning even through they have proof that it's real?

These machines don't have names

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Real life vulcano can create lightning through clouds
So are we gonna downgrade every character that dodge "magic" lightning even through they have proof that it's real?

These machines don't have names

Nothing confirms Vulkin is a "real life volcano". Tsundereplane looks like a plane, does that make her an actual plane?

You didn't present any proof though, you just assumed because Vulkin looks like a real life volcano he's immedieatly using real lightning.

Can you link these machines?

 

[Juggerton]

xD

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Vulkin's lightning has been discussed numerous times and has been determined to be natural lightning

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Vulkin's lightning has been discussed numerous times and has been determined to be natural lightning

Can I get proof on why it's been determined natural lightning please?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Nothing confirms Vulkin is a "real life volcano". Tsundereplane looks like a plane, does that make her an actual plane?

You didn't present any proof though, you just assumed because Vulkin looks like a real life volcano he's immedieatly using real lightning.

Can you link these machines?

Look at this page

Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

It have scientific basis on real lightning and showed to come from a source where real lightning come from...

Are you gonna try to debunk everything just saying "it's magic"?

And the Characters already dodged lightning from machines..

They are just Mettaton attacks... so i can't link them

But Mettaton uses technology rather than magic to do his attacks

And like Weekly said the staff already had numerous discussion about this and decided it is real lightning

latter i will post some links to these threads

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Nothing confirms Vulkin is a "real life volcano". Tsundereplane looks like a plane, does that make her an actual plane?

You didn't present any proof though, you just assumed because Vulkin looks like a real life volcano he's immedieatly using real lightning.

Can you link these machines?

Look at this page

Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

It have scientific basis on real lightning and showed to come from a source where real lightning come from...

Are you gonna try to debunk everything just saying "it's magic"?

And the Characters already dodged lightning from machines..

They are just Mettaton attacks... so i can't link them

But Mettaton uses technology rather than magic to do his attacks

And like Weekly said the staff already had numerous discussion about this and decided it is real lightning

latter i will post some links to these threads

"Lightning directly produced by a character is only considered as real lightning if it has demonstrated some properties that real lightning has. Some examples are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis."

Where is this proven for Vulkin? Nothing about his lightning does anything to muscles, having an magnetic field(and gravity manipulation has been shown in undertale), nor does it flow through conducting materials, nor is Vulkin shown to be able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general.

That's a bit of an appeal to motive, I never said everything is magic, I said Vulkin's lightning in general is magic. Monsters are pretty much proven in undertale to do things with magic:

(Blue Book) While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water. Humans, with their physical forms, are far stronger than us. But they will never know the joy of expressing themselves through magic. They'll never get a bullet-pattern birthday card...

(Orange Book)

Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL. If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken. And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us. Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill... Um, let's end the chapter here...

http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Snowdin#Snowdin_Library

What exactly confirms the machine's lighting is as fast as real lightning, it moves far slower then actual lightning should, this should also be proven further since the only person ever shown to be using something close to actual lighting is Asriel Dreemur .

I understand what weekly said, however I want to understand why the discussion has came to the decision that it's real lightning.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

That is to lightning from machines

We never see Frisk body during fights

Because there is nothing to flow through?

Undertale gravity manipulation is through soul manipulation so well...

Vulcanos can create lightning through clouds...

Again are we gonna downgrade every verse which dodge lightning because "it's magic"

>Using a Immeasurable Character to downgrade a MHS+ character

You know the player need to see it right?

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

That is to lightning from machines
We never see Frisk body during fights

Because there is nothing to flow through?

Undertale gravity manipulation is through soul manipulation so well...

Vulcanos can create lightning through clouds...

Again are we gonna downgrade every verse which dodge lightning because "it's magic"

>Using a Immeasurable Character to downgrade a MHS+ character

You know the player need to see it right?

Again said lightning is far slower then Asriel's lightning(which acts a lot more like actual lightning).

My point is that nothing there provides a reason for it being real magic, especially due to Asriel's lightning attack.

Again, this is like saying tsundereplane is an actual plane just because she looks like one. Vulkin's magic is most likely like that due to the fact that he remincinces a volcano, basically Toby Fox being creative. I also don't want to repeat myself on the Asriel point, but Vulkin's magic is far slower then Asriel's.

That's again, appealing to motive. I never said every single verse follows undertale, that would be me using an association fallacy, however, due to it being magic and not sharing the same properties as real lightning, it shouldn't be assumed as the same properties of real lightning.

I used an immeasurable character's attack because his attack works just like actual lightning does(or far more then monsters like vulkins).

I'm aware the player needs to see it, the player sees Asriel's attack right? That works a lot like real lightning, right?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Youre comparing lightning that moves at Immeasurable speed to lightning that moves at MHS+ speed, no shit Asriel's lightning is faster.

Vulkin's lightning is real, it was discussed numerous times and it possesses all of the properties of natural lightning. You can read about it here

Using Asriel's lightning, which moves at Immeasurable speeds, to try to debunk Vulkin's lightning doesnt work as an argument. Its like trying to say bullets arent Supersonic by comparing them to light.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Game Mechanics toby artistics intentions will not downgrade a entire verse

Asriel and Frisk are Immeasurable during that fight his attack not being avoidable/having reasons to be real mean nothing

You accept Asriel lightning as real lightning but don't accept Vulkin lightning because it can be dodged?

Tsunderplane does have proof of being a machine through...

That is completely diferent one just look like a plane while the latter have scientific basis and come from something were real lightning come from

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Youre comparing lightning that moves at Immeasurable speed to lightning that moves at MHS+ speed, no shit Asriel's lightning is faster.
Vulkin's lightning is real, it was discussed numerous times and it possesses all of the properties of natural lightning. You can read about it here

Using Asriel's lightning, which moves at Immeasurable speeds, to try to debunk Vulkin's lightning doesnt work as an argument. Its like trying to say bullets arent Supersonic by comparing them to light.

When is it officially stated that Asriel's lightning attack is moving at Immeasurable speed? I thought the whole idea is that Asriel himself is immeasurable. It's like comparing Goku's FTL speed and then saying his kamehameha is FTL because Goku himself is so. Not to mention Asriel's lightning works like actual lightning(more so then Vulkin's). Vulkin's lightning moves very slow for being actual natural lighting.


Thank you.


I still don't see though how Asriel's lightining is auto-immeasurable because he himself is immeasurable.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Him being above linear time and fightning even after he erased the entire timeline?

Again Frisk is Immeasurable during that fight

Do you think Asriel attacks are infinitely slower than him?

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I'm pretty sure Goku's Kamehameha is FTL.

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Him being above linear time and fightning even after he erased the entire timeline?
Again Frisk is Immeasurable during that fight

Do you think Asriel attacks are infinitely slower than him?

Again, your attack isn't going to automatically equal your speed, by that logic Goku's kamehameha wave should be FTL, his spirit bomb should be way faster then how it just slowly falls down, Misgoi's all fiction would only be massively hypersonic, Gon's jajaken is another example, Luffy's gum-gum pistol would be as fast as gear 2, etc.

Frisk being immeasurable during that fight only makes more sense for why he can easily dodge the attack.

Do you think Asriel's attacks are auto-equal to his speed? He could just be asserting his domninace as the new "God".

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

I'm pretty sure Goku's Kamehameha is FTL.

Kamehameha is far slower then light.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Kamehameha is far slower then light.

Then, why don't the characters see it moving in slow motion?

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Kamehameha is far slower then light.

Then, why don't the characters see it moving in slow motion?

Most likely PIS, it's like asking why Goku didn't notice the laser or why he couldn't react as quickly with a bulelt despite being far faster then it. Not to mention the kamehameha never usually hits, it only ever usually ends with a beam struggle IIRC.

Anyways, I just wanted to see the reasoning for Lightning based Undertale, after reading the reasons why, I still don't personally agree with it, but I already know it's going to end with no side agreeing, so whenever the mods come I ask them to close this thread, unless I myself can.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Give proof why they aren't

It doesn't matter if they are true lightning because they are immeasurable

Do you really think Asriel would make his attacks infinitely slower than himself? and even then Frisk would be able to easily dodge them because they are infinitely slower than Frisk

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

It's one of the main attacks in the entire show, how can it be PIS?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Cell couldn't react to Goku kamehameha... and it wasn't because he didn't know Goku telepoted but because he wasn't able to react to the wave itself

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Give proof why they aren't
It doesn't matter if they are true lightning because they are immeasurable

Do you really think Asriel would make his attacks infinitely slower than himself? and even then Frisk would be able to easily dodge them because they are infinitely slower than Frisk

I'm pretty sure I did, they work far more like actual lightning does(making Asriel's magic relate to actual lightning) and a perosns attack isn't going to automatically be as fast as their speed.

What...? If they were true lightning they'd be the speed of lightining. The definition of truth is inaccordance with fact or reality, if the lightning was immeasurable, it wouldn't be "True lightning".

Knowing how cocky he acts, it's possible. Frisk does easily dodge them, IIRC.

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[Paulo.junior.969]

If kamehameha wasn't FTL, it would take decades for it to even move in the character's perspective.

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

Cell couldn't react to Goku kamehameha... and it wasn't because he didn't know Goku telepoted but because he wasn't able to react to the wave itself

That moment was honestly PIS, Goku was still calling out the name of the attack right in front of him.

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

It's one of the main attacks in the entire show, how can it be PIS?

Spirit bomb is one of his main attacks in the entire show, and that attack goes *really slow*.

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

If kamehameha wasn't FTL, it would take decades for it to even move in the character's perspective.

That should be the same idea with bullets and lasers yet Goku gets hit by both. Unless we don't want to consider those moments PIS.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

It takes forever to charge, but FTL characters were unable to dodge it, so, it's not as slow as it seems.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

I'm pretty sure I did, they work far more like actual lightning does(making Asriel's magic relate to actual lightning) and a perosns attack isn't going to automatically be as fast as their speed.

What...? If they were true lightning they'd be the speed of lightining. The definition of truth is inaccordance with fact or reality, if the lightning was immeasurable, it wouldn't be "True lightning".

Knowing how cocky he acts, it's possible. Frisk does easily dodge them, IIRC.

Frisk need Aim Dodging to dodge them

Asriel "Lightning" don't resemble anything like true lightning it literaly is just a bunch of raibow "electricity"

Do you belive it is true lightning because they can't be dodged by normal means?

It doesn't matter because they are infinitely faster than any 3-D speed seriously drop it

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

lol

 

[Anonimoe7875]

lol

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

I'm pretty sure I did, they work far more like actual lightning does(making Asriel's magic relate to actual lightning) and a perosns attack isn't going to automatically be as fast as their speed.

What...? If they were true lightning they'd be the speed of lightining. The definition of truth is inaccordance with fact or reality, if the lightning was immeasurable, it wouldn't be "True lightning".

Knowing how cocky he acts, it's possible. Frisk does easily dodge them, IIRC.

Frisk need Aim Dodging to dodge them
Asriel "Lightning" don't resemble anything like true lightning it literaly is just a bunch of raibow "electricity"

Do you belive it is true lightning because they can't be dodged by normal means?

It doesn't matter because they are infinitely faster than any 3-D speed seriously drop it

He still dodged them with ease, and if it was aimd odging it makes even more sense how an immeasurble being dodged it with ease.

His lightning acts more like IRL lightning(than Vulkins), strikes down fiercely and makes a thunderous sound, makes far more sense.

Never said that, again appeal to motive. I never even said it's true lightning, I said it resembles lightning more than Vulkins.

I don't think anything ever explains that.

 

[SuperSwordMaster1]

It takes forever to charge, but FTL characters were unable to dodge it, so, it's not as slow as it seems.

Can you give me a moment? Most of the time the only time the kamehameha ever "hits" it's during a beam struggle, where it's meant to hit.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Kamehameha being slower than light at this point would mean that it would take decades to even move in the character's perspective, and it's too frequent to be PIS, so, yeah.