A quick check in
multiple Japanese dictionaries shows that the term "亜空間" can also mean "hyperspace", so like how "
sekai" can mean planet, universe, or society, context is important to make an educated answer for the intent (and in fact this is a common thing in Japanese in general, like how such language also favors genderless prose for a natural flow of words unlike other languages that instead prefer setting a default gender), and for this case it wouldn't make any sense for the space containing the worlds to be a subset of the world in question when it's literally the other way around, as noted in the Memorial Ultimania:
Key word, it
can also mean "Hyperspace". Every site I used for translation only lists that as an alternative, not the primary translation. And the space containing those worlds being a "subspace" is not mutually exclusive with it being dimensionally inferior. Most of outer space is a vacuum of nothingness, lacking even primary 0-dimensional particles in some cases, a space does not necessarily need to be dimensionally transcendent over another space to embed them within it. The Ocean Between is already accepted as being a separate space from the worlds within it, so it literally does not require any dimensional transcendence whatsoever especially since the space within worlds is much larger than its exterior, as is consistently how worlds are portrayed.
Please don't just link to YouTube videos as a base for an argument, as that just enables your argument to be much harder to grasp over just summarizing the main deviations in a more readable manner, I did watch the video just in case however, but in any case...
Dude, you used the Kingdom Hearts wiki
multiple times in your own CRTs. You literally use KH Insider, a fan website, multiple times in this very response as well, including not even a paragraph after you say this. It is very disingenuous to dismiss the source I sent for no other reason other than it's a YouTube video. Regular Pat is just as much of a reliable source of Kingdom Hearts information as you are, the video goes
significantly in-depth on every single difference between the game and novelization. He's not making what he's saying up in that video, it's a word-for-word reiteration of events in the novel. I don't see the problem here. It also wasn't the "base for an argument", I used that in
support of what I was saying.
The novels having different stuff isn't unheard of
It's not just "unheard of", literally the vast majority of events in the novels are far different from the games. Multiple worlds in KHI, some of which have actual important plot points, are flat out removed from the KH1 novelization entirely. That is a pretty big contradiction to say the least.
, the reason they're usable (aka, as a secondary canon, so in case of contradictions the primary canon will just have more priority) has to do with content originally exclusive from them being praised by the main author of the main canon (Tetsuya Nomura), then added to later releases of the primary canon, and the author of the novels (Tomoco Kanemaki) also works closely with the games and in fact has co-written KH 358/2 Days as well as Dark Road, plus has written the KH Character Files as well.
https://www.khinsider.com/news/New-GMaga-Scans-and-Interview-100
https://www.khinsider.com/news/Tons-of-New-Info-in-Nomura-Interviews-526
I've seen arguments like this so many times, but authors being fans of adaptations of their story does
not prove any relation whatsoever to canon. Akira Toriyama loved Bardock: The Father of Goku, yet Bardock's eventual canon addition was an almost an entirely different story not at all congruent with what Toei had in mind. Toriyama also made some designs for Dragon Ball GT and even came up with the title, yet that doesn't make it canon. Just because the creator of a story is a fan of its adaptations and eventually is inspired to add some of it to canon does not equate the entire adaptation to being fully canon. And the detail with Saix "seriously injuring Axel" is something which could very easily have happened off-screen in KHII, it's not a blatant contradiction as many of the events in KH's novels that could
not have happened off-screen are. There have also been numerous instances of writers of an adaptation of a story eventually writing the real thing. Hell, Robert Kirkman, the actual creator of the Invincible comics, writes and directs the Invincible animated series, yet it's still listed as a separate continuity on this very wiki. The KH Novels simply contradict canon far too often and are very clearly trying to be their own thing, although I could maybe understand using more recent novelizations for the whole "more strict canon guidelines" thing you mention.
That's just regarding how they look in the Ocean Between, as noted in the blogs, the stars visible on the sky don't refer to literal stars, but rather to the
light from the hearts of the respective worlds (watch until 2:00 for the pertinent bit), with the novels backing it up as claims meant to be literal, we also see that people can also have their own "stars" from their hearts, case in point
Eraqus's.
Occam's Razor. It would be extremely hard to mistake something the size of a universe as a planet. The worlds we see in game do not ever look like anything other than planets,
Ansem the Wise himself directly calls Worlds planets while he is studying on them, observing meteor showers, so you literally can't use the "just how they look from the ocean between" argument for that. The latter detail is supported entirely by how the GUMMI missions are formatted in KHIII, where we see said celestial objects like meteors, and they exist near worlds without issue. I'm sorry, but there are simply way too many leaps in logic that are required here to suggest that things which are repeatedly referred to as planets, are portrayed as planets in solar systems, are seen as lights in the sky like planets in real life are, are anything other than planets. Planets can appear in the night sky as glowing lights in the same way stars do, in fact they do literally all the time, them shining down on worlds in KH in the same way is consistent with how astrophysics work.
It's also pretty strange how you argue
that the lights in the sky we see in Traverse Town and Olympus Coliseum are actual stars in order to back up the notion that worlds contain more than just the planet they are set on and are therefore at minimum 4-A in size, but also
simultaneously argue that the stars visible from worlds aren't literal stars. It can't be both. You yourself claim that KH is hardly ever retconned, so why would the plot point as early back in KH1 that stars in the sky = the light of worlds be disregarded when we see them in Traverse Town and Olympus Coliseum?
Especially when we literally see a star vanish in Traverse Town's sky as Donald and Goofy panic watching it, the very thing you already agreed supports that light in the skies = stars? I also don't think "Zeus doesn't have the range to affect other worlds" or "Sora Donald and Goofy are unconcerned about it messing up the world order" are good arguments either. There's no evidence that the barrier between worlds (which again, isn't even supposed to exist in the first place) prevents anything other than physical travel. Hell, even then, we've seen multiple characters breach the barriers without GUMMI blocks anyway, the Galactic Federation being amongst them. Maleficent in KH1 can control Heartless originating from other worlds, there's not really anything that implies the barrier stops telekinesis from physically moving them, especially since, again, normal meteor showers were capable of doing so. As for "Sora Donald and Goofy didn't care that Zeus moved the stars", why would they be? There's no reason to suggest that realigning the order of planets would be a harmful act to anyone, which would only make
more sense if the barriers are truly as inpenetrable as you claim. Literally
the opening cutscene of Olympus in KHIII mentions the planets being in "perfect alignment" as a good thing. I was going to save all of this for my CRT as well, but again, you've kinda forced my hand.
With worlds like Toy Box and Deep Jungle having Earth globes laying around, yet their worlds not looking remotely like that in the perspective of the Ocean Between (which is something pointed out in the KHI novel, even)
Um, yeah, the worlds in the Ocean Between consistently do not resemble their actual layout. The same way that Twilight Town's Clock Tower
doesn't comically dwarf the Mysterious Tower and that the actual in-game maps for getting around are not consistent with their layout in the world map. We also see a flag for the United Kingdom and Jane and Clayton are British, Deep Jungle's entire world is pretty clearly just Earth, the only reason it doesn't resemble that in the Ocean Between is because the focus of the world is not on the entirety of Earth, just Deep Jungle, and the artists have no reason to draw anything beyond that. Neverland also has London in it. This is nothing more than an example of
a common trope in movies/cartoons where the interior of structures are significantly more massive than their exteriors.
, this'd add further credibility to the worlds not being literally planets/stars, and this is ignoring worlds that are blatant universes (End of the World having an infinite abyss and thus being High 3-A,
"Endless" =/= Infinite. The context of Endless Abyss being referred to that is more than likely due to the fact there is nothing but darkness inside it, which Ansem expressly points out, and there's no evidence the realm is actually endless beyond Ansem just boasting that it is in a clear attempt to try to intimidate Sora, Donald, and Goofy. Ansem regularly speaks to the characters in intimidating language that obviously is not literal, like the infamous "darkness within darkness awaits you" line from Dream Drop Distance.
or Toy Box being a direct copy of the Toy Story universe, as we do default for settings to have a universe-based structure).
Toy Story "universe"? When has Toy Story took place anywhere else (outside of imagination sequences and in-universe fictional franchises) outside of Earth?
This is more of an exception than the standard, the BbS novel points out that the ship was warping space-time, which isn't too unlike what the process to open a Corridor of Darkness or a gate to the Lanes Between would do, in fact he technically was in the Lanes Between at the time, not the Ocean Between, further adding credibility to this claim.
This is not a very strong rebuttal. You can't dismiss a contradiction as being a contradiction because it's "more of an exception than the standard", that's not how evidence works. And by saying this you are automatically conceding that the Galactic Federation is indeed aware of other worlds unlike what you claim in the cosmology blog. The Galactic Federation aren't members of Organization XIII or have magic like Maleficent, they can't just open something like a Corridor of Darkness willy-nilly. BTW, the novel nothing that it was "warping space-time" pretty clearly implies that the Ocean Between and Worlds all exist in the same space-time, but I will explain this in far more detail in my own CRT. Also, the Lanes Between is a subset of the Ocean Between, and even if it wasn't, the Galactic Federation having ships that can travel through it anyway is still proof that their idea of "the universe" does indeed extend beyond the world Deep Space exists in.
Yeah, that could just use the in-game statement of Stitch (shown previously) just being the most powerful being of the universe with no further specification, which'd have priority as it comes directly from the primary canon (BbS the game), as then the argument of Stitch being the strongest in the universe would only make sense if this'd refer within his native universe, rather than the KH setting as a whole.
Did you not earlier say that there's no issue using the novelizations as secondary source material to add more context to parts of the story that don't appear in the games? Why is it now conveniently only acceptable to use the in-game statement? The full context in the Ultimania is telling us he's only the most powerful "
biological weapon" in the universe, and you yoruself have made it clear multiple times you prioritize statements from the Ultimania over things we see in the game. There's also not really anything suggesting that the statements of Stitch being the most powerful being in the universe aren't hyperbolic anyway.
Okay, I bothered checking the controversial term in question (宇宙 (uchuu)), and in fact that term can also translate as "universe" as noted
here. While this does still invite some uncertainity over the intended meaning, the KH3 Ultimania does still bring up Stitch traveling to a far-off planet where he crash-lands to and finds Lilo, add to that the other prior context brought up and in total it's less assumptive to claim that the intent of the term used was "universe" over "space".
Like I said in my first response, key word is
can. Things being lost in translation happens all the time,
and it has happened in Kingdom Hearts before. The definition you sent also has "cosmos" and "space" as synonyms, which are consistent with what I've been told the actual translation is. And again, this technically can't be proven, but given that there have been instances of other sections of Disney Worlds being entirely separate worlds in KH before, when the island of Kauaʻi inevitably appears as a world in Kingdom Hearts, I
highly doubt it would just be Deep Space again rather than a completely separate world. The whole "crash-landing" thing for Stitch is consistent with how he appears in Radiant Garden too, another "World".
Besides prior stuff brought up debunking a good chunk of the concerns in this paragraph, the only bit left of note to prove that would be an even more assumptive claim than the worlds simply being universes is that Deep Space is much larger than just the space ship of the Federation, besides Stitch going to a far-off planet and meeting Lilo as stated in the KH3 Ultimania, other Ultimanias also allude to cosmic proportions, further supporting universal size:
Uh...the first scan you're sending is
literally stating that Deep Space is set on a planet. And it
then states immediately after that the world is "floating in space", which is literally what Deep Space as a world is. There is also not really any evidence to suggest that the outer space we see outside of the ship of the Federation is separate from the Ocean Between, and KHIII shows us that worlds can float adrift in space amongst similar visuals to what we see in Deep Space's background. The only evidence that would suggest they are different would require circular reasoning; assuming that every other argument you've made against me is true and that I'm wrong.
You also say in the cosmology blog here that the Grand Councilwoman isn't aware of other worlds, but the only evidence you provide for this is simply that they don't want to get involved with fighting Unversed. This argument quite frankly baffles me honestly, most of the Galactic Federation are not altruists or have time to waste helping from their perspective random people. And again, we quite literally do see space ships the Federation has travel in the Lanes Between, which like I said,
is a part of the Ocean Between, literally right after Terra fought an Unversed, so it is absolutely not impossible for them to assist if they wanted to.
The second scan does have a lot more basis to it in all fairness, but it still overall doesn't actually say anything beyond calling Deep Space a world, and it could very easily just be some undisclosed, section of space in the Ocean Between
in the same way the Waypoints in KH III are. One of the "worlds" in Kingdom Hearts is a giant whale for
Pete's sake. Worlds being abnormal and not planet-like is not unheard of. Also, even if Deep Space for some reason was a Universe, I don't see how that necessarily proves that every other World in the cosmology is, especially when we have worlds
that are just computer simulations.
We know that
space without light or darkness is just regarded as a void of nothingness, and with light and darkness being the original inceptionists for true KH (as you may know, there's multiple kinds of KH, with only true KH scaling to the entire cosmology by nature), as well as
Xehanort specifically wanting to erase everything and start from scratch
Yes, and like I said, the "everything" he wanted to erase and start from scratch, based on the plot point that KH's cosmology was once just effectively one big World, was simply just the physical contents of the worlds themselves. Which, again, does not require him to affect the Ocean Between to do so. We also don't have any proof Kingdom Hearts, which itself is a world, which you agree are considered "tiny" and effectively lower-dimensional in comparison to the Ocean Between, has any presence in the Ocean Between, as again, in Union Cross, the Keyblade War shattering the World only affected the physical spaces within those worlds, not necessarily the Ocean Between. The Ocean Between could very reasonably have always been there, and was only made more accessible when the worlds became disconnected. As for the whole "space without light or darkness is a void of nothingness" thing, that would only apply to whatever portion of space light and darkness gets removed from, which doesn't have to be the Ocean Between. The entire premise of worlds (as stars) vanishing from the night sky is exactly like that, Xehanort could reduce all of the worlds themselves to that "void of nothingness" after purging the worlds of Light and Darkness, but that does not mean he necessarily
had to affect the Ocean Between to do so.
https://phoenix-downer.tumblr.com/post/183399195018/sora-and-xehanorts-final-conversation-japanese
, or Data Sora's Heartless wanting to erase the entire cosmology, feats for this sort of scaling are the last concern, especially given they're already accepted.
I'm aware that they're accepted, but that's not my reason for bringing these problems up. It's because the Ocean Between being 1-C hinges on assuming it is a "greater" universe than Deep Space, which I find the evidence for shaking. I also have a lot of issues with the Re:Coded stuff too, but I've said more than enough already and I don't wanna drag this on much longer, or at least until I finish the CRT I'm working on about this.
All of that said, this is heavily derailing as this is all just trying to debunk scaling and priorly accepted CRTs, please make a separate CRT if the above answers still left you unsatisfied, but you can also DM me if you'd want, ultimately this doesn't even try to directly address the points given for claiming that the Ocean Between is a 5-D hyperspace and goes over other issues that are worth a CRT of their own if anything as others have said.
They are actually directly relevant here. The proposal is that the Ocean Between is a "greater" universe, but the evidence for this is simply that both the Ocean Between and Deep Space are both called universes, and my disagreement stems from the fact that that does not necessarily make them distinct from one another, bringing up issues with the current cosmology to show that. I was already planning on making a separate CRT, which is what I prefaced my post with. I only mention some of these points because again, they are indeed relevant to the notion of The Ocean Between being 1-C.
