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Yes this should have been in the main Frontiers CRT but, it was suggested to make it its own thread: Base Sonic and his scaling to the Titans.
For the record, I’m not trying to scale him to them in all aspects. In terms of AP and durability, Sonic is clearly outclassed. Sonic’s only physical altercation with a Titan in cutscenes has him knocked out by a single throw from Giganto after being crushed, and Sonic immediately game-overs if he gets hit by them in a scripted gameplay scene.
However, there are multiple instances throughout the game where Sonic is outrunning the Titans in said scripted sequences, and the game will flat out not allow you to progress until you complete them. This includes outrunning Wyvern as it chases you around the desert (and catching up to it to acquire its Chaos Emerald), outrunning Knight and it’s buzzsaw, and weaving around/dodging Knight and Giganto’s strikes in order to acquire their Chaos Emeralds. And at the very end, Sage pilots the Supreme Titan (which has no will of its own and requires a pilot to control it), meaning Sage directly has to respond to the End’s projectiles flying at Supreme in order to dodge or counter them.
So, that’s 3-4 instances of base forms scaling to Titan level threats in the same game in terms of speed.
Granted; maybe you could argue the Knight and Giganto instances don’t count because they were holding back, and that Sage’s instance doesn’t count because maybe Supreme enhanced all facets of her speed.
But this immediately falls apart with Wyvern, who flat out was bloodlusted by Sage and lashing out in anger. There’s no way it could have held back, and yet Sonic still outpaced it.
And the argument against scaling to the Titans will probably be one of two things: them being immeasurable and that not working for base Sonic, or that you require the Chaos Emeralds to fight the Titans at all.
Starting with the latter, the game never says that you need the Super form to match the Titans’ speed. The game makes multiple direct comparisons between base Sonic and the Titans, and they paint a very clear picture: in speed, base Sonic is on par, but in physical strength, he is severely outclassed. And the latter is far more important to winning, hence the need for a strength boost.
As for the former, this could be explained in one of two ways: Either the Titans and the End aren’t immeasurable, and the End being stronger than all previous foes is limited to purely physical strength (which would make sense, as the End lacks the physiology of Solaris and Solaris doesn’t have immeasurable speed himself to upscale from), or…
Base Sonic could be immeasurable himself.
There are actually a few instances in the series where Base Sonic arguably approaches this speed tier.
-Base Sonic keeps up with the Ifrit Golem (who could burn half the Arabian Nights to nothing) and base Erazor Djinn (who absorbed words from across half the Arabian Nights and returned them at endgame). The Arabian Nights are big enough that a space called “infinite” could exist in a single building. And while Runners contradicts this somewhat with Base Sonic losing to a tiny fraction of “no-absorbed energy Erazor”, Sonic has likely surpassed his Secret Rings base self by this point.
-Base Sonic keeps pace with and dodged the attacks of an Egg Robo amplified by the overclocked Phantom Ruby, which created Null Space, a dimension described as endless in both scrapped game dialogue and the Encyclospeedia, and uses that same energy to attack with.
-Base Sonic could dodge attacks from Void, who could corrupt and destroy all of Maginaryworld. As established in Frontiers, Cyberspace is not only a dimension containing infinite data, but a dimension where all the data came from the memories and feelings of the Ancients. This means the Ancients collective mental capacity could reach infinite data, meaning they could have more than likely possessed infinite size dreams, which means Void’s attack speed would have to cross an infinite distance.
-Base Sonic could fix time and space with pure speed, and ran through different time periods with nothing but his boost in Generations.
There’s also a number of times in the past where base forms have kept up with super form tiers in speed:
-Super Mecha Sonic
-Time Eater
-Eggmobile in Advance 3
-Perfect Chaos
So, at the very least a couple feats that can be argued as infinite speed scaling for base Sonic to back up his Frontiers base self being immeasurable. I’m fine with either approach, as long as base Sonic in Frontiers and those on par with his speed are scaling to the speed of the Titans in some capacity.
Update:
Over the course of the thread it’s kinda become apparent that everything regarding the nature of the Ancients’ dreams warrants a discussion on Maginaryworld’s cosmology.
As seen in the game, Cyberspace does offer multiple different areas to explore within the realm, at least 5 (City, GH, Chem Plant, Sky Sanct., and the fishing hole). This, in tandem with the Ancients’ collective dream capacity reaching an infinite size, hints at the possibility that the Ancients possess a collective Multi+ dream capacity, or at the very least there is an infinite dream volume composed of multiple separated dreams going into Maginaryworld, a place that already contains countless other dreams. And while this likely shouldn’t be taken seriously at all, WoG has stated that Maginaryworld could “maybe” hold an infinite amount of dream worlds. (15:37 November 2nd Bkast).
So, Maginaryworld can potentially become either a 2-A cosmology (upgrading all the game 2-Bs to 2-As), or at least have the size of dreams in Maginaryworld upgraded to a maximum size of infinite 3D space while maintaining a 2-B cosmology.
The only problem is that none of the individual stages in Cyberspace showcase any kind of stellar cosmology, so the question of whether Cyberspace and Maginaryworld can hold an infinite stock of realms, or just one realm of infinite size, can be discussed.
New Discussion: Potentially upgrading Maginaryworld to Multiverse+ size, and potentially upgrading speed tiers (either base or lower tier super forms) to infinite speed based on scaling to Void’s corruption speed of Maginaryworld, Erazor Djinn and the Ifrit Golem’s absorption and destruction speed respectively, and the Phantom Ruby’s creation speed used in its attacks.
For the record, I’m not trying to scale him to them in all aspects. In terms of AP and durability, Sonic is clearly outclassed. Sonic’s only physical altercation with a Titan in cutscenes has him knocked out by a single throw from Giganto after being crushed, and Sonic immediately game-overs if he gets hit by them in a scripted gameplay scene.
However, there are multiple instances throughout the game where Sonic is outrunning the Titans in said scripted sequences, and the game will flat out not allow you to progress until you complete them. This includes outrunning Wyvern as it chases you around the desert (and catching up to it to acquire its Chaos Emerald), outrunning Knight and it’s buzzsaw, and weaving around/dodging Knight and Giganto’s strikes in order to acquire their Chaos Emeralds. And at the very end, Sage pilots the Supreme Titan (which has no will of its own and requires a pilot to control it), meaning Sage directly has to respond to the End’s projectiles flying at Supreme in order to dodge or counter them.
So, that’s 3-4 instances of base forms scaling to Titan level threats in the same game in terms of speed.
Granted; maybe you could argue the Knight and Giganto instances don’t count because they were holding back, and that Sage’s instance doesn’t count because maybe Supreme enhanced all facets of her speed.
But this immediately falls apart with Wyvern, who flat out was bloodlusted by Sage and lashing out in anger. There’s no way it could have held back, and yet Sonic still outpaced it.
And the argument against scaling to the Titans will probably be one of two things: them being immeasurable and that not working for base Sonic, or that you require the Chaos Emeralds to fight the Titans at all.
Starting with the latter, the game never says that you need the Super form to match the Titans’ speed. The game makes multiple direct comparisons between base Sonic and the Titans, and they paint a very clear picture: in speed, base Sonic is on par, but in physical strength, he is severely outclassed. And the latter is far more important to winning, hence the need for a strength boost.
As for the former, this could be explained in one of two ways: Either the Titans and the End aren’t immeasurable, and the End being stronger than all previous foes is limited to purely physical strength (which would make sense, as the End lacks the physiology of Solaris and Solaris doesn’t have immeasurable speed himself to upscale from), or…
Base Sonic could be immeasurable himself.
There are actually a few instances in the series where Base Sonic arguably approaches this speed tier.
-Base Sonic keeps up with the Ifrit Golem (who could burn half the Arabian Nights to nothing) and base Erazor Djinn (who absorbed words from across half the Arabian Nights and returned them at endgame). The Arabian Nights are big enough that a space called “infinite” could exist in a single building. And while Runners contradicts this somewhat with Base Sonic losing to a tiny fraction of “no-absorbed energy Erazor”, Sonic has likely surpassed his Secret Rings base self by this point.
-Base Sonic keeps pace with and dodged the attacks of an Egg Robo amplified by the overclocked Phantom Ruby, which created Null Space, a dimension described as endless in both scrapped game dialogue and the Encyclospeedia, and uses that same energy to attack with.
-Base Sonic could dodge attacks from Void, who could corrupt and destroy all of Maginaryworld. As established in Frontiers, Cyberspace is not only a dimension containing infinite data, but a dimension where all the data came from the memories and feelings of the Ancients. This means the Ancients collective mental capacity could reach infinite data, meaning they could have more than likely possessed infinite size dreams, which means Void’s attack speed would have to cross an infinite distance.
-Base Sonic could fix time and space with pure speed, and ran through different time periods with nothing but his boost in Generations.
There’s also a number of times in the past where base forms have kept up with super form tiers in speed:
-Super Mecha Sonic
-Time Eater
-Eggmobile in Advance 3
-Perfect Chaos
So, at the very least a couple feats that can be argued as infinite speed scaling for base Sonic to back up his Frontiers base self being immeasurable. I’m fine with either approach, as long as base Sonic in Frontiers and those on par with his speed are scaling to the speed of the Titans in some capacity.
Update:
Over the course of the thread it’s kinda become apparent that everything regarding the nature of the Ancients’ dreams warrants a discussion on Maginaryworld’s cosmology.
As seen in the game, Cyberspace does offer multiple different areas to explore within the realm, at least 5 (City, GH, Chem Plant, Sky Sanct., and the fishing hole). This, in tandem with the Ancients’ collective dream capacity reaching an infinite size, hints at the possibility that the Ancients possess a collective Multi+ dream capacity, or at the very least there is an infinite dream volume composed of multiple separated dreams going into Maginaryworld, a place that already contains countless other dreams. And while this likely shouldn’t be taken seriously at all, WoG has stated that Maginaryworld could “maybe” hold an infinite amount of dream worlds. (15:37 November 2nd Bkast).
So, Maginaryworld can potentially become either a 2-A cosmology (upgrading all the game 2-Bs to 2-As), or at least have the size of dreams in Maginaryworld upgraded to a maximum size of infinite 3D space while maintaining a 2-B cosmology.
The only problem is that none of the individual stages in Cyberspace showcase any kind of stellar cosmology, so the question of whether Cyberspace and Maginaryworld can hold an infinite stock of realms, or just one realm of infinite size, can be discussed.
New Discussion: Potentially upgrading Maginaryworld to Multiverse+ size, and potentially upgrading speed tiers (either base or lower tier super forms) to infinite speed based on scaling to Void’s corruption speed of Maginaryworld, Erazor Djinn and the Ifrit Golem’s absorption and destruction speed respectively, and the Phantom Ruby’s creation speed used in its attacks.
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