Chainsaw Man: Speed CRT + More

[GunshyFever]

I added the homing justification to the OP, so hopefully that will provide clarity and prevent us from repeating the same points repeatedly.

 

[Arkenis]

First, the spear was calculated under constant acceleration from rest, which means its highest velocity is achieved at the end of its path and not at the beginning. There is no evidence that it decelerates before reaching Denji. So when Denji interacts with it at close range, he is interacting with its peak velocity. You cannot just assume it slows down near him because nothing in the scene suggests that.

Why would it keep its acceleration after hitting Earth?

The spear actively corrects its trajectory to follow him. That means he cannot just preemptively sidestep it from a distance. He has to wait until it gets extremely close before movement becomes meaningful, because the spear will simply adjust and follow him otherwise. Hence the "almost got speared".

That doesn't make him scale to it.

In the initial feat, he dodges it despite it traveling from the moon. Then later he continues to maneuver around it effortlessly.

Why is he so surprised by its speed if its effortless?

We are clogging the thread speaking on the same points with just different people every time.

Your interpretation for him dodging last second is not concrete so I can see how this has been brought up several times. "Almost got speared" because its fast, not because he timed himself correctly to dodge it last second and thus he's actually several times faster. Unless you can prove the spear's got a notable lag, the feats just read as him almost getting hit because he's not faster than it.

 

[GunshyFever]

I will respond to this tomorrow. I am gonna catch up on some rest.

 

[GunshyFever]

Why would it keep its acceleration after hitting Earth?

This is a strawman. I never said the spear continues accelerating after hitting Earth. Under constant acceleration from rest, peak velocity is reached at the end of its trajectory. Denji interacts with it at that endpoint. The acceleration phase is already complete by then.

That doesn't make him scale to it.

Again, strawman, that is not what I was explaining. The homing property explains why Denji cannot simply sidestep early from a safe distance. The spear actively corrects its trajectory. If he moves too early, it adjusts. That forces him to wait until the projectile is within meaningful proximity before committing to movement.

This is not about "almost got speared because he is slower". When you are dealing with a homing projectile, the correct response window is smaller.

Why is he so surprised by its speed if its effortless?

Surprise does not equal inferiority. A high speed homing spear closing in at close range will naturally create tension. The reaction window is tight. If he moves too early, it corrects. If he moves too late, he gets hit. Being surprised by how fast something is does not mean you are slower than it. It just means the margin for error is small.

Your interpretation for him dodging last second is not concrete so I can see how this has been brought up several times. "Almost got speared" because its fast, not because he timed himself correctly to dodge it last second and thus he's actually several times faster. Unless you can prove the spear's got a notable lag, the feats just read as him almost getting hit because he's not faster than it.

You cannot reduce the scene to that interpretation alone. He does not say "I almost got speared because I am slower". He says he almost got speared in a context where he is repeatedly maneuvering around a homing attack.

The key issue you are not addressing is that he must time his dodge correctly. The fact that he repeatedly avoids it shows that his reactions are at minimum comparable to its peak velocity.

If he were slower, he would simply get hit. Repeated successful evasion against a tracking attack places him within the same speed tier at bare minimum, and even that in of itself is incredible downplay.

 

[Arkenis]

This is a strawman. I never said the spear continues accelerating after hitting Earth. Under constant acceleration from rest, peak velocity is reached at the end of its trajectory. Denji interacts with it at that endpoint. The acceleration phase is already complete by then.

You're arguing it's suddenly changed its acceleration from FTL in several seconds across hundreds of thousands of meters, to FTL in several seconds across several meters and nothing proves that.

Again, strawman, that is not what I was explaining. The homing property explains why Denji cannot simply sidestep early from a safe distance. The spear actively corrects its trajectory. If he moves too early, it adjusts. That forces him to wait until the projectile is within meaningful proximity before committing to movement.

Prove this. Show us Denji waiting cause each moment he's surprised by it. The homing property's readjustment is unknown, idk why you're speaking like you understand how fast it takes to readjust itself after its been dodged but I do want you to prove you know it.

Surprise does not equal inferiority. A high speed homing spear closing in at close range will naturally create tension. The reaction window is tight. If he moves too early, it corrects. If he moves too late, he gets hit. Being surprised by how fast something is does not mean you are slower than it. It just means the margin for error is small.

You're still going off the idea he knows to react at just the right moment. Prove it.

You cannot reduce the scene to that interpretation alone. He does not say "I almost got speared because I am slower". He says he almost got speared in a context where he is repeatedly maneuvering around a homing attack.

He maneuvered twice, stop talking like he was constantly avoiding it "effortlessly" as you say, because it simply wasn't.

The key issue you are not addressing is that he must time his dodge correctly. The fact that he repeatedly avoids it shows that his reactions are at minimum comparable to its peak velocity.

The key issue is you haven't proven that's what he's doing. "Repeatedly" it was three times and he's always giving remarks because its so fast.

 

[Zabazab]

He evaded the FTL homing attack 3 times and then finally got hit when he was in mid-air. He scales to it.

 

[Bruh]

Not only that, he traveled offscreen to his school all while being chased by the spear and only got hit when his back was turned and distracted. Also im not understanding the notion that the spear is at its slowest when it's first launched and gets faster overtime, it reached its max speed from the moon to the mesosphere in just one panel, the rest of the panels are spent in earths atmosphere. If anything it's the fastest when first changing direction

 

[GunshyFever]

You're arguing it's suddenly changed its acceleration from FTL in several seconds across hundreds of thousands of meters, to FTL in several seconds across several meters and nothing proves that.

Where is it shown that the spear loses speed during homing? You are asking me to prove that it keeps its velocity, but the burden is actually on you to prove that it drops velocity. Nothing in the scene indicates a slowdown. The spear is portrayed as violently fast both during travel and during close range.

You are also saying the spear just randomly starts taking entire seconds to travel a few meters when we have its acceleration speed at FTL. What you are arguing here uses assumptions we are not working with and just inherently doesn't make any sense.

Prove this. Show us Denji waiting cause each moment he's surprised by it. The homing property's readjustment is unknown, idk why you're speaking like you understand how fast it takes to readjust itself after its been dodged but I do want you to prove you know it.

He casually causes the spear to rotate by doing a backflip, which forces it to track him at close range and momentarily lose him (like any homing attack would?). The burden of proof is also actually on you here to prove that the homing property is different from how it is shown in the panels. If it's a spear, it is going to follow you wherever you go and if you move out the way, the spear is going to follow in your direction, that is the default assumption. Every dodge Denji makes happens at extreme close range, where the spear chases him mid air while he is distracted and defenseless. It is your job to prove that it works inherently different from any other homing object realistically, because I am working with the manga content and the general standard assumptions here.

You're still going off the idea he knows to react at just the right moment. Prove it.

Not only is he casually having a conversation with Yoru, he is clearly not paying attention to the spear at all while speaking with her every time it shows up. It's not that he is intentionally timing it, but he is clearly not taking the spear itself seriously. Even then, (again) there is an entire panel of him allowing the spear to get close enough and then forcing it to rotate its trajectory because it is following his direction.

He maneuvered twice, stop talking like he was constantly avoiding it "effortlessly" as you say, because it simply wasn't.

One. Two. Three. And yes, if you are careless and not actually focusing on the attack separate from the last moment, that is being effortless. As I said before, surprise does not equate to inferiority.

The key issue is you haven't proven that's what he's doing. "Repeatedly" it was three times and he's always giving remarks because its so fast.

He never remarks that it's fast. Every single time he was off guard and not focused and the spear kept homing in on him almost instantly after he dodged it. That is clearly a pressure issue more than a speed issue.

 

[Arkenis]

Where is it shown that the spear loses speed during homing? You are asking me to prove that it keeps its velocity, but the burden is actually on you to prove that it drops velocity. Nothing in the scene indicates a slowdown. The spear is portrayed as violently fast both during travel and during close range.

You are also saying the spear just randomly starts taking entire seconds to travel a few meters when we have its acceleration speed at FTL. What you are arguing here uses assumptions we are not working with and just inherently doesn't make any sense.

Never said it loses speed during homing. I'm asking you to demonstrate it has the same acceleration it did from the Moon to Earth. Acceleration from Moon to Earth took several seconds and traveled the distance, if it suddenly can do that with significantly less distance and shorter time, that needs to be proven.

He casually causes the spear to rotate by doing a backflip, which forces it to track him at close range and momentarily lose him (like any homing attack would?). The burden of proof is also actually on you here to prove that the homing property is different from how it is shown in the panels. If it's a spear, it is going to follow you wherever you go and if you move out the way, the spear is going to follow in your direction, that is the default assumption. Every dodge Denji makes happens at extreme close range, where the spear chases him mid air while he is distracted and defenseless. It is your job to prove that it works inherently different from any other homing object realistically, because I am working with the manga content and the general standard assumptions here.

Stop saying this bullshit. Nothing was causal or effortless about this unless you prove that. No duh thats the assumption, the problem lies in you thinking Denji is actively timing the dodges right. I'm not asserting anything you aren't lmao, I'm asking you to prove the homing works how you're arguing and you can't. It's readjustment can occur if the target dodges just a meter or more or less, what you're suggesting is that Denji LETS it get close and then blitzes it. The manga offers nothing for how it works so idk what you're working with besides you're assumptions.

Not only is he casually having a conversation with Yoru, he is clearly not paying attention to the spear at all while speaking with her every time it shows up. It's not that he is intentionally timing it, but he is clearly not taking the spear itself seriously. Even then, (again) there is an entire panel of him allowing the spear to get close enough and then forcing it to rotate its trajectory because it is following his direction.

One. Two. Three. And yes, if you are careless and not actually focusing on the attack separate from the last moment, that is being effortless. As I said before, surprise does not equate to inferiority.

You've got to be joking. You've convinced yourself of this, there's no getting it through to you the spear is faster.

He never remarks that it's fast. Every single time he was off guard and not focused and the spear kept homing in on him almost instantly after he dodged it. That is clearly a pressure issue more than a speed issue.

"Pressure issue" What is the pressure from?

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

this was all discussed in the CGM thread of the feat. Arkenis, why on earth are you bring it back up now

 

[Arkenis]

I was in the thread and I brought up the thread here too. The issue I'm having is acting like earth to moon acceleration is equal to several meters acceleration. That's not proven and its just being slapped on as if the acceleration would be the same.

 

[Sammy818]

We’ve all made our points, let’s just wait till some mods get in here

 

[GunshyFever]

Never said it loses speed during homing. I'm asking you to demonstrate it has the same acceleration it did from the Moon to Earth. Acceleration from Moon to Earth took several seconds and traveled the distance, if it suddenly can do that with significantly less distance and shorter time, that needs to be proven.

The spear is calculated to take 2 seconds to reach FTL speeds. As I previously stated, it is incredibly fast at close range. The spear does not have to continuously travel at planetary ranges to accelerate to FTL speeds. And that's a testament to Denjis interactions with it.

Stop saying this bullshit. Nothing was causal or effortless about this unless you prove that. No duh thats the assumption, the problem lies in you thinking Denji is actively timing the dodges right. I'm not asserting anything you aren't lmao, I'm asking you to prove the homing works how you're arguing and you can't. It's readjustment can occur if the target dodges just a meter or more or less, what you're suggesting is that Denji LETS it get close and then blitzes it. The manga offers nothing for how it works so idk what you're working with besides you're assumptions.

Did I not just prove that? You can call it nonsense in your interpretation all you want, but I am standing firm on my point and you are not addressing it by simply dismissing it. I already gave you an explanation that Denji's timing is not inherently purposeful, but it is still something that is happening. You are saying I cannot prove how the homing works, yet I also gave another example of Denji literally rotating the spear at close range, which requires timing. Everything I said above is directly from the manga and I even linked scans as evidence. If I cannot sway your mind, then that is that. But this is not enough to sway mine either. It is probably best to let the CGMs give their two cents.

"Pressure issue" What is the pressure from?

As I said, it is the pressure of the spear constantly homing in on him every time he dodges, a relentless attack basically.

Again, like I said, let us wait for feedback. I do not see our scuffle here going anywhere meaningful.

 

[GunshyFever]

Bump

 

[Breadbear83]

I agree with everything besides scaling Yoru's bang to "only a bit more than 8% stronger" than Makima's. Yoru boosts her weapons considerably with her guilt, so it would be higher to an unknown degree

Thinking about what you said voidgoji, couldn't yorus bang scale above 100% gun devil bullet speed?

Her right gun gauntlet is already agreed to have an AP higher than 100% gun devil ramming AP (which its higher than his bullets AP and it's even a suicidal attack) as they harmed part 2 Pochita who also scales above 100% gun devil because of being states to being on par to aging devil, who as a primal devil also scales to that darkness devil statement of he being much much stronger than gun devil

So if yorus gun gauntlet scales even above 100% gun devil bullets AP and even his ramming AP, even while being made of 28% gun devil (the reason being the guilt she had in turning him into a weapon enhancing his AP) then so they can have higher speed than hypothetical 100% gun devil bullets speed

This may make it so "100% gun devil tier" it's recalled "very high tier" where 100% gun devil bullet speed remains there, but yorus bangs, fake chainsawman, post fear boost hybrid denji and weakened falling scale there (Mach 23015)

Edit: unless it's argued that yorus Weaponization does not enhance speed, as usually she wields weapons and the weapons speed are based on her arms movements, gun gauntlet being the outlier at having a constant speed from just aiming at the objective

 

[GunshyFever]

That is speculation. When Yoru turns something of value to her into a weapon, the weapon is naturally stronger and has a special trait. We see the Gun Gauntlet have enough AP to harm Primals and cause explosions on impact. It is not shown that the gauntlet is faster at all. Yoru's guilt could have solely empowered the attack power of the gauntlet itself without affecting the speed, which is what we clearly see. I believe the Gauntlet is 28% Gun attack speed at baseline. It has not shown anything that warrants it being higher.

 

[GunshyFever]

there are a few subsonic feats that they can scale to (like the one you gave) and I for example made one calc of a feat made by some fodder devil hunter of the devil hunter clubs that also got to subsonic+ (Mach 0.66) as it's done by a more inexperienced devil hunter, any special division 4 member could scale to it: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...w_Man)_A_Devil_Hunter_dodges_transformed_Yuko

That feat is incredibly useful, you should try get it evaluated.

 

[Breadbear83]

That feat is incredibly useful, you should try get it evaluated.

Thank you! I'm still waiting for the 2 weeks cool down to end so I can bump it again in the calc evaluations request

The calc members that know about chainsawman have seem to be busy tho as they haven't voted yet in the speed CRT

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Can't say much about scaling, but if the calcs are accepted its good.

As for the arguments around the FTL feat, I find the supporters arguments more convincing.

 

[Sammy818]

Well since it’s debated point to this thread rn, Gunshy you should probably clarify where the ftl tier would scale if it’s found the American spear is not accepted(not in a comment, that way mods can understand easier)

 

[GunshyFever]

Is it not the opposite? @Celestial_Pegasus said that the arguments given by the supporters regarding the FTL feat in question are more convincing than mine. The primary argument is not that the feat itself is faulty, but that Denji is not many times faster than the feat, as I am suggesting. In turn, I will likely give Denji-Man a solid rating relative to the feat instead of upscaling him above it, considering he can consistently interact with the attack.

Edit: I am also working on something in the OP to make the scaling far more readable and some new changes.

 

[GunshyFever]

Hey everyone, quick update on the CRT.

I went back over the scaling and realized I overlooked how many characters already sit at High Hypersonic, so I adjusted the tier placements to keep things consistent. The Nail Fiend Supersonic feat was not evaluated, so anyone who was previously scaling to it has now been pushed down to Subsonic+ via the Dragon Fiend Blocks Bullets Subsonic+ tier.

The OP has been updated with the revised tier list and placements. Please re-check your votes or objections with the adjusted scaling in mind.

Can't say much about scaling, but if the calcs are accepted its good.

I appreciate you taking the time to view this. I created a sandbox that is easier to read and goes far more in depth on the scaling. If you choose to look at it, it should help paint a clearer picture.

Here is a sandbox preview of how everything will appear on the profiles.​

 

[OhMrKnight]

Why is Denji slower than Samurai Sword and Reze? I thought we all agreed that they share the same physical stats, and that the only thing that makes a difference is combat skill (more so with Reze than with Katana Man, actually).

It doesn't make sense to me that Post-Training Denji is so slow in comparison.

 

[GunshyFever]

Assuming you are referring to their human forms, Reze would fundamentally be above both of them due to being a trained soldier from a young age, while Denji and Samurai Sword have less solid scaling to anyone in that state. They will eventually scale higher, we just lack the calculations for bottom tiers right now.

 

[OhMrKnight]

Assuming you are referring to their human forms, Reze would fundamentally be above both of them due to being a trained soldier from a young age, while Denji and Samurai Sword have less solid scaling to anyone in that state. They will eventually scale higher, we just lack the calculations for bottom tiers right now.

I confused their human forms with their hybrid forms in the sandbox, sorry.

But what about Reze’s torpedo feat? Wasn’t it calced at Mach 3?

 

[GunshyFever]

I confused their human forms with their hybrid forms in the sandbox, sorry.

But what about Reze’s torpedo feat? Wasn’t it calced at Mach 3?

All good, and yeah, however that is a supporting feat now regarding the new scaling and would only apply to mid tier characters.

 

[Breadbear83]

Hey everyone, quick update on the CRT.

I went back over the scaling and realized I overlooked how many characters already sit at High Hypersonic, so I adjusted the tier placements to keep things consistent. The Nail Fiend Supersonic feat was not evaluated, so anyone who was previously scaling to it has now been pushed down to Subsonic+ via the Dragon Fiend Blocks Bullets Subsonic+ tier.

The OP has been updated with the revised tier list and placements. Please re-check your votes or objections with the adjusted scaling in mind.

I appreciate you taking the time to view this. I created a sandbox that is easier to read and goes far more in depth on the scaling. If you choose to look at it, it should help paint a clearer picture.

I agree with the new revised calc, only thing about what speed would you give spearman and Miri sugo like I said earlier

 

[GunshyFever]

Considering that they do not have profiles yet. Their scaling can always be discussed another time.

 

[GunshyFever]

Bump.

 

[Ztesrxgdfjcvgkbh]

Following

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm I'm in agreement with the revised OP; regarding the debate on the FTL scaling, while I think the the first two attempts of Denji dodging the spear really don't count, I think the last one is sufficient

 

[GunshyFever]

Hmmm I'm in agreement with the revised OP; regarding the debate on the FTL scaling, while I think the the first two attempts of Denji dodging the spear really don't count, I think the last one is sufficient

I appreciate you taking the time to comment. Regarding the rules for larger verses like Chainsaw Man, I am assuming I need one more vote, or should two be enough?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Just realized I never double checked the thread like I said I would so uh, my bad. Anyways, for the most part it seems fine. Neutral on the Denji man spear scaling though.

 

[GunshyFever]

All good, thanks for commenting.

 

[Breadbear83]

I appreciate you taking the time to comment. Regarding the rules for larger verses like Chainsaw Man, I am assuming I need one more vote, or should two be enough?

3 votes for major CRTs, a controversial verse would need more but chainsawman isn't one of them

Thought celestial pegasus voted for the old speed scaling and not the current one, you could ask him to revise it, eljoaki5 also made a comment on page 1 of this thread but haven't come back

 

[GunshyFever]

Snip

Their vote was generalized and not specific to one part of the scaling. We have enough votes. CGMs do not hold any voting power in CRTs, only thread mods and Administrators do. That just means this CRT has passed.

Regarding the FTL scaling, I will just give everyone a flat scaling due to the contention around Denji being massively faster than the spear as I proposed in scaling line one. In scaling line two, everyone simply scales to it flatly. They are just as fast as the spear rather than faster than it.

 

[Breadbear83]

Some information came up and I would like to exclude Aki, Himeno, initial Denji, as I believe they are powercliffed beyond the values here. It is best that their speed scaling be discussed in a different CRT with better calcs fitting for them. I will be placing them at the rock bottom tier, and they will possess average human speeds until the time to change their speed arrives.

And about this fuyure CRT, you asked me earlier to try to get evaluated my "devil hunter dodges transformed Yuko" calc, so you could use it as a possible scaling for the rock bottom tiers like aki and himeno?

 

[GunshyFever]

I will be applying changes in a few.

 

[Breadbear83]

I will be applying changes in a few.

Great!

btw, if its accepted that, the fact that Yoru uses bangs from a 28% gun devil while Makima uses from a 20% gun devil, and so yoru having 8% more gun devil than makima means that speed difference to makimas bang (yoru bangs being faster than Makimas bangs), then it shouldnt be adding a 8% of makimas bang ´´(Mach 4,603.11) resulting into Mach 4,971.36

28% of anything (gun devil) its 40% higher than 20% of that same thing

so add 40% of that 20% (Mach 4603.11) and you get Mach 6444.354

more simply, theorically 100% gun devil scales 5 times higher than makimas bang (equal to 20% gun devil), he being Mach 23.015.55, 28% of that speed is also Mach 6444.354[/spoiler]

Remember this slight calc too for those who scale to yorus bangs, if you change the speed section in the verse page you should clarify in the calculation notes about yorus bangs upscaling from mákima's bangs

 

[GunshyFever]

Yes, thank you.