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DBS Tier 2 Scaling Chain [besides Infinite Zamasu]

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The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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I'm going to simplify this since my previous thread was eaten up by the wiki:

  • This thread is to discuss the Low 2-C Scaling for the verse with the aforementioned changes to some of the profiles.
  • Essentially the current DBS' Tier Low 2-C's are accepted as scaling somewhat to the GoD's feat of "destroying two universes together"... However the feat is treating it as a baseline requirement for God of Destruction, not their Full Power (at least by anime standards)
  • This affects the Low 2-Cs that upscale from UIO 1st as UIO 1st and Casual Jiren are explicitly stated to rival the Gods of Destruction, which at bare minimum would apply to the feat aforementioned rather than their full power.
  • It also proves that Gods of Destructions should be treated as having huge gaps in power despite scaling to the same feat of destroying two universes together.
  • You could make a arghument for beginning of tournament of power SSB Goku somewhat scaling but this is not the thread for such nor will I be the only to instigate such a thing.
 
Really, upon refelction, I'd say that the other GoDs can't really be said to compare to Beerus and Champa. We just don't have enough information on anyone else. As such, I'd say that they should scale to/above Toppo's GoD form.

I have to say that I wish the Manga's Exhibiton Match had been used for Anime, we wouldn't have nearly as many issues with how the GoDs scale to each other.
 
Yeah, some people still think that MUI Goku, Shritless Jiren and Broly are "not that far from Beerus and other GoDs", but, if we consider this:

As a God of Destruction Candidate, Toppo was stated to have become equal in power to a God of Destruction by the Supreme Kai, which was confirmed by Belmod in that only a GoD can access that level of power, with the narrator outright calling Toppo a GoD

Even Vegeta would be stronger than a GoD with his SSBEvolution with SSBKK Goku scalling since they were even, and then MUI Goku and who scale to him would be able to fodderize GoDs. I guess people doesn't quite agree on this

Considering that every GoD are comparable
 
I propose we treat the "destroying both universes" feat as a "baseline requirement that the GoDs can do without going full power" because it fixes a lot of the issues for the most part besides the "minimal" things.
 
I'll give more input as the discussion progresses.

Even with his power massively held back, Jiren's strength was stated by Whis to be either within or above the domain of Gods of Destruction

I think this is how we should treat this: Whis was referring to Jiren in general, not how much energy he was using at that moment to push the Genki-Dama back. That would put Goku and Vegeta working together stronger than any GoD, therefore putting SSJ1 Broly above all GoDs too. This can also be partially fixed by Dante's and Seed's proposition.
 
"He is the one who has reached that state." "Perhaps even surpassed it." "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." "It appears the rumors are true." - Whis on Jiren overpowering the Spirit Bomb in Ep109

So to me, based on Whis' statements, it means that Jiren AT LEAST surpassed the power of Belmod who isn't at any point mentioned to be a weak GoD and I believe you have to have some exclusive level of power before anyone can just throw out a GoD title to anyone. What I mean is Belmod may not equal Beerus or Champa in power but is probably relative because all GoDs are considered elites when it comes to power. Even, Sidra gave only SOME of his Hakai energy and it was still strong enough that Frieza had to exert more of his power to maintain it. We also see when Liqueur, Arak, and Ivan all spar each other to test the stage's durability that there was no real gap between the three in power. SO ANIMEWISE I think all GoDs are relative though Beerus may still be strongest but not by a huge margin.
 
Just gonna jump in right quick, but, at least in the manga, Beerus is shown almost casually finessing all of the GoDs. It would be safe to assume he's one of (if not the) strongest GoD. GoD tier can be vary greatly, as it implied True Golden Frieza could defeat Sidra, who GoD Toppo slapped.
 
Bump.

@Synergy Wait when was that implied that True Gilden Frieza is relative to Sidra ? If that's the case.... That sort of messes up a few things:

  • That'd imply Golden Frieza at the beginning of the tournament is Low 2-C via all the GoD being capable of the aforementioned feat, albeit again it definitely isn't at full power. It also backs up how Goku did so well against Jiren when holding back the spirit bomb and with his semi back in fourth during 109 and 110... which said spirit bomb was confirmed Low 2C later on ... But that implies that every ssb level fighter in the tournament is relative to Sidra. Woo boi... That's going to need to be discussed further.
  • However on the opposite side that does indeed show that GoD vary in power a lot.
@Zamasu I created this thread to deal with the inconsistencies of some GoDs being Low 2C, who it might bump up, and perhaps make an offical scaling chain that's accepted by the majority for future threads involving this high end level of Low 2C.
 
I watched the episode and despite Sidras claim that he could kill Frieza easily, his Supreme Kao wasn't sure if Sidea could defeat Frieza. So yeah... This is a genuine problem.
 
Bump. Okay since Sidra being relative to True Golden Frieza actually does prove my point I believe it's good scaling chain as of this information. Do remember that this is basing it off of the fact that Sidra is Low 2-C via being a GoD that currently all GoDs are accepted to be Low 2-C, when prior this wasn't considered (I'm juist laying out what would be the Low 2-C scaling if Sidra >=< Frieza is accepted):

  • Sidra: 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (as a God of Destruction,should be comparable to the power any two God of Destructions are capable of when fighting , which can destroy two space-time continuums together)
  • Beginning of ToP SSB Level Fighters: 3-A, posssibly Low 2-C (Comparable to True Golden Frieza, who the Supreme Kai stated would not be easy to beat by Sidra, who as a God of Destruction is comparable tot he power any two God of Destructions are capable of, which can destroy two space-time continuums together)
  • Son Goku (Beginning of ToP SSBKKx20): 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Much stronger than previously aforementioned)
  • Heavily Supressed Jiren: 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Oneshotted Kale who was considered by statements within her debut to be of SSB level tier in her debut. Fodderized SSBKKX20 Goku and forced him to use the Spirit Bomb, and still fodderized that.)
  • Ultra Instinct Goku (1st): Possibly Low 2-C (Fought Casual Jiren on even terms)
  • Son Goku (Post-UIO 2nd)/ Broly (Ikari, SSJ,) , Vegeta (Post-ToP/SSBE). Frieza (Post-ToP): Possibly Low 2-C (All scales well above pressuring Jiren to using more power than he every did prior, which would include against UIO 1st0
  • UIO 3rd / FP Jiren : Possibly Low 2-C Kept up with a nigh-FP or FP Jiren
  • MUI Goku / UBW Jiren: Possibly Low 2-C (Immensely superior to UIO 3rd. Overpowered Base Jiren without effort. UBW Jiren rivaled MUI Goku)
A few things to note:

  • This isn't counting SSB Gogeta or FP SSJ Broly as it's unclear where they are in the hierarchy. We just now they are immensely superior to Post-UIO 2nd SSB Goku.
 
High 3-A actually, since the World of Void is infinite in size and all.
 
I don't see any SSJB tier at the Beginning of the ToP Low 2-C/GoD tier, It seems kinda illogical to me.

Frieza still somewhat struggled with Sidra's energy of destruction in which he used just a very small portion of his power. This small statement doesn't say nothing imo when Whis back at the U6vs7 Tournament said almost the same thing about SSJBKKx10 Goku and it wasn't true. Does Rou also know about Frieza/Sidra's full power? I think GoD tier hasn't been reached until either UIO1, Toppo, UIO3 or MUI because the main indications of GoD territory being reached came at those times.

As for the main topic, I am not sure If I agree with this, Though shouldn't UIO 1st/Casual Jiren and everyone who upscale be Low 2-C, possibly/likely higher? Possibly Low 2-C is a no no because they definitely are in that tier via numerous statements about Jiren>Infinite Zamasu.

And another question, would this make every DBS Low 2-C backscale from the Beerus feat or would Casual Jiren/Weakest GoDs be the baseline of that feat? If it's the latter almost every Low 2-C would become 2-C because Beerus feat power x 2 is 2-C.
 
I can see your points and their solidity... However. your Whis argument definitely isn't the greatest comparison as Whis was clear he was joking to get under Beerus' skin, while here Rou would have no reason to kidding around as he's legit terrified of Frieza and warning Sidra about the dangers of siding with him. Rou has no reason not to be aware of his GoD's Full Power BTW considering he's one of the few Kais to be shown working closest to his GoD in DBS . Especially when Sidra didn't backtalk or even say anyhing in response to Rou's claim... Which hints it's likely true as otherwise he'd have just said "Your wrong" or something similar. However I can back away from this though I just wanted more thoughts.

I would rather just put "Low 2-C" but "Low 2-C, possibly Higher" is pretty safe without having to go into "2-C" via being 2x stronger.

And yes it would. Albeit I'd prefer not upgrading them to 2-C and just place them as solid "Low 2-C".
 
If Beginning of ToP Goku Blue becomes possibly Low 2-C can Vegetto Blue and Corrupted Zamasu get the pass too? OvO

@The 2nd Existential Seed Sidra right after Rou's statement said don't worry, it'll be... and then Frieza cuts them off. Also, they haven't sensed Frieza's power as far as I am aware.

Other thing to mention is that Rou probably just made assumptions because the only thing he saw is Frieza resisting Sidra's VERY casual hakai which seemed in an impressive feat to him, this coupling with Frieza's evil/dirty nature and intelligence (which he saw too) this one could turn against them without they even being aware of it and/or evading a encounter with the GoD, IMO that could be a big factor on Rou's concern. Just my thoughts. I still think SSJBs at that point being Low 2-Cs seems a bit illogical but lets see more thoughts.

As for the main topic again, Casual Jiren/Weakest GoDs being the baseline Beerus feat (1/2 * Baseline 2-C) would mean

SSJBKKx20 Goku (post UIO2) and anyone higher than him would almost undeniably be 2-C because he's over 20x 1/2 Baseline 2-C, if they stay Low 2-C then SSJBKKx20 would be less than 2x stronger than SSJB Goku post UIS2 who is above Casual Jiren which is stupid to say the least since everyone here seems to agree with Kaioken multipliers:

But here comes another problem, that would make highest tier DBS cast WAY ABOVE 10x baseline 2-C. while Zeno's best feat (and the DB verse cosmology) caps at around 6-9x baseline 2-C because there were 18 universes (now 12), and Goku and co. were never stated to be capable of destroying ALL of existence, and as such I really doubt currently anyone barring Zeno and possibly GP can.

This is such a mess tbh.
 
@Omegas

I mean the thing is Zeno's best feat is just due to his power using erasure (can I call it erasure hax?), not his own AP.

While I agree that Goku, even at his best, is likely not capable of standing up to Zeno's erasure on that level, it should be worth noting that, if I remember correctly, Zeno could destroy those 6 universes casually (I mean we see him no diffing a bunch of universes in the ToP). Goku and Beerus, way back when during BoG almost destroyed their own universe (and I believe they were both slightly surpressed), and it is stated that two GoDs fighting would result in the destruction of the universe.

Surpessed Jiren is already above most GoD based off his feats w/UIS Goku, and we know MUI Goku slaps a surpressed Jiren, so I don't see the problem with them being significantly above baseline 2-C. I think they should reside somewhere in between Universal+ and Low Multiversal.
 
This problem can be solved quite easily if we just accept the GoDs aren't comparable to each other and actually have huge power gaps between them. Toppo being equal to Vermoud means Vermoud and Beerus aren't comparable since Beerus needs the likes of MUI Goku to be surpassed, so unless SSJBE Vegeta defeated someone who was comparable to Beerus while being comparable to SSJBKKx20 Goku instead of MUI, Beerus is much stronger than Vermoud.
 
@Ion

I agree. The problem might arise when we start talking about someone who is "GoD level". Since we know that they can vary greatly (like Toppo supposedly being GoD level, but doesn't even have feats that would put him in the same tier as surpessed Jiren), and Beerus seems to be the strongest GoD we have (by a signifcant margin, even, see the manga), we should stop assuming that all the GoDs are relative.

Remember when Beerus (manga) absolutely slapped Perfect SSB Vegeta? He immediately said after that Vegeta would be a good GoD in ANOTHER universe, which shows that they can vary greatly.
 
Holding back base Jiren is being treated in his page as someone above Beerus and every GoD, that would put SSJBE Vegeta and SSJBKKx20 Goku above all GoDs, consequentially putting SSJ Broly above Beerus. The scaling they're using doesn't work because Broly easily overpowered post-ToP SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta at the same time, and he isn't stronger than Beerus with his SSJ alone. SSJBKKx20 Goku and SSJBE Vegeta fought a more serious Jiren and Jiren had trouble dealing with them, at this point, Goku and Vegeta working together would be above all GoDs, and that doesn't work because of Broly and his SSJ. Goku wouldn't even be confused about who was stronger between Beerus and Broly if Broly was already stronger than Beerus with his SSJ form.

I agree that GoDs have huge gaps between them, but there is no direct comparison between MUI Goku and Beerus. But Beerus should be treated as a stronger GoD in comparison to Toppo and Belmod taking into account that he is comparable to SSJFP Broly, who was far above post-ToP SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta (together) without his SSJFP form. And SSJBKKx20 Goku and SSJBE Vegeta being superior to a casual Jiren, who was only above weaker GoDs. But maybe Whis was talking about Jiren in general when he said that Jiren was within or above the realm of GoDs, not actually talking about his casual state being that strong.
 
There is a scan of MUI Goku being stronger than Beerus tho. However, before the translator cleared up the confusion, it was believed it was refering to UIS3 Goku since that's the one pictured on the scan... despite the statement itself mentioning silver.
 
Ionliosite said:
There is a scan of MUI Goku being stronger than Beerus tho. However, before the translator cleared up the confusion, it was believed it was refering to UIS3 Goku since that's the one pictured on the scan... despite the statement itself mentioning silver.
Click to expand...
This one right?
FB IMG 1562468376722
 
The other guy has a point, just because 18 is never called Lazuli doesn't mean that it isn't her name, or that Mister Satan is stage name used by a guy named Mark is false because that isn't mentioned in the series at all.
 
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