Dragon Ball Super Manga Canonicity and Son Goku (Chou) Revisions

[SinbadDaGod]

Should be labeled as Son Goku (canon) as it's confirmed the Super manga is the official continuation of Dragon Ball

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZChua4fkL.jpg

and multiple sources from Shuiesha also state its the canonical/canon sequel to the series

https://i.imgur.com/VbeEtF0.jpg

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.ne...=45fe24030649ed5e8f1d64ea250fac4d&oe=5D23DEF2

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.ne...=895dfd176f1a9cb1f972fbeaec59a060&oe=5CDE01CF

and the Shuiesha official History of Dragon timeline further confirms this by showing a the entire manga history including Super. The Broly movie is also confirmed to be part of this canon timeline according to Shueisha.

https://m.imgur.com/a/pjndMXE

The Dragon Ball Super manga confirms Toriyama works om the manga far more than the anime. Here it says Toriyama fixes artistic mistakes AND adds dialogue.

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/51731889_10210911125569039_223386158212579328_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=2a467ad6cf4101869d9fd170adf64c48&oe=5D1D5777

Toriyama confirmed the anime safe has scriptwriters that add a lot of stuff to overall outline explaining why the anime seems insane with the random power ups that arent in the manga and overhyped of some stuff like Infinite Zamasu who was never supposed to be that powerful.

https://m.imgur.com/a/K4IhXRx

Also Multi-Galaxy seems reasonable but the DB universe is a combination of multiple universe sized dimensions and a single clash with Beerus threatened to destroy the ENTIRE universe 7 and this was with just Super Saiyan God form. So "possibly universe level" sounds more reasonable in my opinion.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/vi...jfQdiWqAxtCRbiAI73gmL7LgNMcqaoG-DdevFM8ddjqtM

Also Perfected Super Saiyan Blue is confirmed to be a separate transformation from regular Super Saiyan Blue along with the manga's Kaioken principled Perfected Super Saiyan Blue is confirmed by Jiren to be Goku's "ascended state" so it's fair to name those as separate forms from Super Saiyan Blue

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0DR1rvOQj...IbSez44IurdMRzZMQCHMYBhgL/s16000/0027-026.png

http://93.190.142.23/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0035-016.png

http://93.190.142.23/manga/Dragon-Ball-Super/0040-012.png

 

[AKM sama]

Aye, we already treat it as canon. But it's not gonna be renamed to something like Son Goku (Canon), since we can't name multiple profiles with the same name. Even his og DB profile isn't named like that.

His rating is already under discussion given the updated universe size. You're right about Perfected SSB though.

 

[KLOL506]

Technically we treat all the sides of DB as their own canon.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah, the manga and anime are both written by either Toei or Toyotoro based on Toriyama's notes, neither of them are 100% faithful to the original draft (also two of your sources are either a generalisation of Super as canon or about the Broly the Broly movie, which is anime only.

 

[KLOL506]

Broly was written by Toriyama tho.

 

[Tyranno223]

Sorry I meant depicted only in the anime (the manga only had a page)

 

[SinbadDaGod]

The page from Super Volume 2 or 3? States Toriyama writes the manga directly. It gives a detailed discription of the writing process.

Step 1) Toriyama sends Toyotaro an outline of the story which can change depending on his talks with Toyotaro Step 2) Toyotaro creates a rough draft based on that, withoit dialogue, and sends it to Toriyama Step 3) Toriyama fixes the artistic mistakes and adds dialogue Step 4) Toyotaro adds finishing touches

So I don't think we can claim the manga and anime are written by Toyotaro and Toei. As Toriyama does in fact write the manga directly in the same, or greatwr capacity than Toyotaro, it's only fair to conclude Manga > anime in terms of canon since he doesn't bother fixing the things Toei does but repeats that same process with the manga every chapter. I wouldn't give the manga and anime equal standing based on these things along.

Not to mention in the Super anime Freeza sees fusion up close, even Gotenks defuse into trunks and goten yet in the Broly movie he had no idea what fusion was. A plot hole that doesn't apply to the manga continuity since Gotenks doesn't appear even once against Freeza so that just supports the movie sharing continuity with the manga, which I've proven Toriyama writes directly. Before you mention the RoF, Toriyama confirms the movie is part of the manga continuity so there is no need to adapt it.

I am also aware he says the Broly movie follows the anime but for advertising purposes it makes sense for him to say that since a vast majority of Super fans don't read the manga, even his classic manga. Shuiesha, his Editors and bosses flat out show the Broly movie as depicted in the film as part of the Manga continuity timeline. The poster credits "Bird Studio" and "Shuiesha", doesn't even mention Toei which could mean they had no say in its canonicity even if they gave the story "physical" form.

 

[Tyranno223]

Toriyama dosen't write the manga, he only writes the draft, whether or not Toyotaro can convince him to change parts of it is irrelevant. Also he oversees both manga and anime and gems obviously have more to say about the manga considering he himself is a manga ja and his direct help is more likely him correcting panels (such as the correction of Zamasu's pose). Also the movie follows the anime far more than the manga, sure there's no evolution or kaioken, but Goku and Vegeta in the anime were shown mainly fighting in normal blue anyway, whilst the manga always has them use perfected which wasn't in the movie (before you mention the lack of auras, perfected blue in the manga never has an aura whilst in the movie he has one when powering up or flying. Honestly it's just to treat them as equally and separately canon.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

He doesn't just write a draft. He is the onr adding dialogue to the pages in the first place

 

[SinbadDaGod]

"Always use perfected" headcanon as he uses normal blue against Toppo, Caulifa, and Jiren. Vegeta used normal blue against Toppo and Moros. Vegeta only uses Ssg in the manga, yet used it in the Broly movie as if he regularly uses it which is he only does in the manga. Unless you got a clip from the anime of him using it regularly.

 

[AKM sama]

He doesn't just write a draft. He is the onr adding dialogue to the pages in the first place

That's just one rough draft. It says right there that it happens only "sometimes". Most of the times, as Toyotaro himself has said in interviews, he receives a basic outline and he has to fill in all the blanks by himself, the same as the writers at Toei. The manga is solely written by Toyotaro, Toriyama has no part in it except for rarely giving some feedbacks.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

Where does it say it only happens sometimes? Toyotaro says before any chapter releases it goes through Toriyama and Shuiesha first. I don't see where it says only sometimes.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

"Sometimes he'll send me a draft he drew instead" what he means is instead of an outline, Toriyama sends his own draft. Not that he only sometimes fixes art and adds dialogue. Toyotaro flat out says he sends his rough draft to Toriyama and the Editors first before finishing it. He shows the creative process right there. First panel is his draft, the second is Toriyama's edit which includes dialogue added and the third panel is the finished product after Toyotaro is finished with it.

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.ne...=98f06e14f621bd0dbe85bc4b212b310f&oe=5D13E1D7

 

[SinbadDaGod]

Just follow the arrows. Those images have nothing to do with Toyotaro's statement about Toriyama sending drafts instead of an outline.

 

[AKM sama]

Still isn't anywhere close to your claim - "Toriyama writes the manga directly". He only gives plot points A and B. As far as the details are concerned to go from A to B, Toyo and Toei are free to fill them as they like. While Toyo remains in contact with Toriyama sometimes getting his draft reviewed and stuff, which btw according to Toyo himself, Toriyama doesn't even give any feedback most of the times, we don't know how much contact the Toei writers have with Toriyama.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

Wrong again. It literally says "sensei adds the dialogue" thats writing directly. Lol and it's not sometimes. That's your assumption as Toriyama explains the manga procress which includes sending in drafts before releasing chapters EVERY time. His words. Also Toriyama tells us he just lets Toei do their own thing. I posted a link with his statement.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

Like I said
https://www.animeclick.it/news/64770-napoli-comicon-2017-reportage-dellincontro-con-toyotaro

 

[SinbadDaGod]

"Moves and expressions" not much. And Toyo/Tori relationship is far superior to that with Toei as the anime uses ideas that came from Toyo/Tori discussions. Like Vegito, Ssg Vegeta, Ssb physical weakness, switch from God to Blue, etc
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/dragon-ball-universe-1775304/interview-with-toyotaro-1874462/

 

[SinbadDaGod]

the anime does its own thing and Toriyama does nothing about it.

 

[AKM sama]

One instance of Toriyama adding a dialogue in the storyboard =/= Toriyama writing the manga.

And Toriyama lets both Toyo and Toei do their own things. Both make changes and additions as they see fit because Toriyama's notes are extremely brief. That's not my assumption.

Here are words from Toyo the boyo himself:

"As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself. The Trunks arc within Dragon Ball Super will hit the U.S. soon, and while a certain reveal is the same in the manga, anime, and Toriyama's outline, both the anime and manga have different ways of getting there, each taking advantage of the unique aspects of their medium, so I hope everyone enjoys comparing them. The parts I really want my fans and readers to look at are the comedic gags, because I'm pretty free to create those!"

"What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line.

Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see."

"I would love to have Toriyama just sit next to me so I could ask him questions all the time, but unfortunately, I can't!"

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2016-10-26/dragon-ball-super-toyotarou/.107579

He also goes on to say that he receives information from the anime team as well, but when his manga will be ahead of the anime, he will start giving more information to them.

So it's basically Tori, Toyo and Toei all working together. There is no single set canon of DBS, both the anime and manga go off of Toriyama's script and are equally canon.

 

[Huesito88]

So if that's true then what are we going to do?

 

[SinbadDaGod]

That moment you did all of that copy and pasting and none of that supports your claim lmfao. Even copy and pasted stuff from my link like I didn't already debunk it. Volume 4 already said those things. Even gives us VISUAL DESCRIPTION of the process which trumps an interview any day. Also the anime cannot be canon. Thats not how continuity works thats NEVER been how continuity works. the anime is never once said to be canon. Its never once called the continuation of the Dragon Ball manga while the DB manga is said to be ALL of those things multiple times. That automatically debunks the anime being canon. Only fans in denial claim the anime is canon. Heck Toriyama himself doesnt give the anime the time of day outaide of sending them a script they butcher every single time.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

How about this. Post a link that says the anime is canon. You can have all the time you need because I know for a fact the evidence doesnt exist otherwise cancerous anime fanbase would have been posting it. Heck YOU would have posted it instead of wasting time copy and pasting babble like it trumps visual description of the manga process. The fact Toriyama is actively working on the manga before every single release is further proof it trumps the anime. It released trumping the anime. The manga has been in the works since LONG before the anime was even a concept. 2012 anyone? Lol what was Toei doing in 2012? Developinh BoG movie. What was Shuiesha and Toriyama doing? Developing the Super manga yet the anime is magically EQUAL to canon? Defuq? Since when has a non canon anime that has infinite filler, non canon characters, non canon flashbacks, even non canon "previously on DBZ Kai" statements be considered canon to Toriyama's continuity? Super confirmed it shares continuity with Toei anime continuity many times yet fans are still in denial.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

"They are equal because Tototaro uses ideas from the anime"

So Toei canon is equal to Toriyama canon because Toriyama ised their character Broly for his own work. Again faulty logic.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

The anime already used Toyotaro's ideas or did yoh already forget the fact Merged Zamas is supposed to be ONLY Blue level yet the anime team made Zamas fused with the bloody universe? Lol dafuq xD did you forget Anime version of Blue was "perfect ki control" until it copied the manga with the "cant stay full power for long" theb switching from God to Blue?. Heck Belmod is wanked in the anime, a character created by Toyotaro.... Lol the manga id AHEAD OF THE ANIME like it was supposed yet unlike any other decent anime in the twentieth century, the anime wasny seasonal and the manga was monthly. Lmfao the ToP trailer for the manga released BEFORE the anime even reached that arc which means Toyotaro already been drawing many panels for the arc over a year before the manga actually got to that point.

Another point you keep purposely ignoring. The official DB timeline has been unleashed upon the anime fandom and none of it includes the low quality anime. The History of DB panel is newer therefore making it THE canon. It even flat out says "official canon sequel to the Majin Boo Saga" magazine cover also says "canon sequel" and manga hardcover says "continuation of Toriyama's best selling MANGA" and we all know the Super anime is not, can not, and will not be canon. Period.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

 

[SinbadDaGod]

 

[SinbadDaGod]

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that the manga is more closely managed by Toriyama, but it is much easier for our visitors to identify with the Chou label, and far more of them have watched the anime, so we cannot dismiss it as less canon than the manga. As such, we are not going to rename the page.

 

[SinbadDaGod]

Reasonable response. Shame but thanks anyways.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Thank you for not making a big deal out of this.