Durability Page Update (Staff Only)

[Damage3245]

Our current Durability page is a bit basic and the lack of explanations or standards on there make it a bit hard sometimes to argue durability scaling on the forum.

@KingTempest and I have been working on a proposal for an overhaul of the Durability page, providing explanations for some terms, explaining circumstances where scaling durability could be difficult and trying to add some examples of viable and nonviable scaling.

Here is the sandbox in its current form.

The purpose of this isn't to be completely inclusive from the start or to be overly strict as context varies from feat to feat, character to character and verse to verse. This is just to help make things easier than what the current page is.

I don't mind opening this up to more users to get input on the proposal but at first this is just going to be for staff members only to give feedback and thoughts. What I'm looking for primarily is suggestions like other examples that could be put on there, or additional images, or extra guidelines currently missing etc.

One guideline that could be added is what do we do with a character who has Invulnerability. I haven't put anything down for that yet.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much to you and KingTempest for helping out with this, as we really do need to improve on our Durability page.

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

What do you think about this?

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Looks good.

Spock and I think Vulcans in general use pressure points a lot.

Also, maybe worth covering game mechanics? Specifically health bars, chip damage, weak spots etc.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, maybe worth covering game mechanics? Specifically health bars, chip damage, weak spots etc.

That would probably be a good idea. I'm not as familiar with how we treat video game durability / health bars.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

This looks great. Good job to the both of you.

 

[Antvasima]

That would probably be a good idea. I'm not as familiar with how we treat video game durability / health bars.

See here for the standards that we have written down so far:

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I like what is in the sandbox and I actually learned new things by reading it. There is something that I'm wondering about regarding the Surviving Attacks section though. While I agree that a character wouldn't outright scale to an attack they merely survived I don't see that being pure endurance either. A case with similar conditions like the example with Law is alright with any possible gap in power since it is only about slicing a limb off but a situation like the example with Meruem gets weirder the bigger the gap is since you could only survive an explosion massively stronger than yourself if you are far enough away from the epicenter or there are other things that protect you or help you survive.

 

[Damage3245]

@Nehz_XZX With the Meruem example, it's more to do with the fact that even though he "survived" it, it still blew off all four of his limbs and charred his flesh so badly he could rasonably be mistaken for a lump of charcoal.

So scaling him to that energy of that explosion is a really bad idea.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah the change looks good.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, cases like Meruem definitely shouldn't scale. He was injured beyond recognition. And he wasn't even right next to the explosion's epicenter when it went off as he was running away from Netero iirc. Then there's the surface area considerations as well.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Nehz_XZX With the Meruem example, it's more to do with the fact that even though he "survived" it, it still blew off all four of his limbs and charred his flesh so badly he could rasonably be mistaken for a lump of charcoal.

So scaling him to that energy of that explosion is a really bad idea.

Yeah, I don't disagree with Meruem being weaker than the bomb that put him into that state or how he is currently scaled. My point is that the situation gets increasingly weirder if you take the same situation and increase the power gap. That result with a High 7-C or Low 7-B character against a 7-B bomb makes sense but it begins to make much less sense if you replace the 7-B bomb of that scenario with a 6-C or 5-C bomb with everything else remaining the same.

 

[DontTalkDT]

This is not applicable to characters who use weapons. A sword attacking with a certain amount of force does not always mean that the user of the weapon will have durability equal to the sword, but the sword's durability would scale from its Striking Strength. Sword users frequently harm opponents who they clash with, rendering this method of scaling flawed.

So, I think this depends on whether your sword just cuts through anything or if it is blocked on occassion. Like, if you swing a sword with x energy and it hits a wall, then your hand experiences an impact of the same magnitude.

I would maybe slightly alter the wording on the "withstanding attacks" thing. It sounds a bit like we only consider attacks that do little to no damage as scaling to durability IMO.

What the Surface Area section is concerned it should be mentioned that we do generally still allow ballpark AP scaling with regular swords/spears.

I think the Surviving Attacks section should be somewhat modified. Surviving a limb being cut of indeed means little. Surviving a 20 Gt explosion as a bloody, but alive, mess on the ground does scale you to some extend. A city level character, for example, would be been ripped to pieces by that. Surviving an attack doesn't count for scaling exactly then if your body failed to mitigate the damage to any notable degree.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk makes sense to me above.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I think the new page looks very good

 

[KLOL506]

I think the Surviving Attacks section should be somewhat modified. Surviving a limb being cut of indeed means little. Surviving a 20 Gt explosion as a bloody, but alive, mess on the ground does scale you to some extend. A city level character, for example, would be been ripped to pieces by that. Surviving an attack doesn't count for scaling exactly then if your body failed to mitigate the damage to any notable degree.

I'd say the bare minimum is to not lose limbs to the attack and to not be left in critical condition after taking said attack. Taking the attack and being able to fight would heavily indicate said attack scaling to your normal day-to-day durability.

 

[KLOL506]

Also...

Causing Haemoptysis to a person by blunt force isn't the safest method of scaling. A way of scaling is from a boxer causing Haemoptysis to a victim who didn't gain it from another boxer's attack, the first boxer would scale above the second.

Isn't the bolded part just punching a weakened victim? The victim having gained haemoptysis from a prior character would have already been weakened and thus would be less durable than they were when they were left unharmed.

 

[Damage3245]

Also...



Isn't the bolded part just punching a weakened victim? The victim having gained haemoptysis from a prior character would have already been weakened and thus would be less durable than they were when they were left unharmed.

I didn't write that part, but I think it means comparing two separate incidents; not one right after the other.

 

[KLOL506]

@Nehz_XZX With the Meruem example, it's more to do with the fact that even though he "survived" it, it still blew off all four of his limbs and charred his flesh so badly he could rasonably be mistaken for a lump of charcoal.

So scaling him to that energy of that explosion is a really bad idea.

I wouldn't say he scaled to begin with, scaling means you take the explosion to the face with minimal damage to your body or your organs and you aren't left in critical condition and are able to still fight on.

 

[KLOL506]

I wouldn't say he scaled to begin with, scaling means you take the explosion to the face with minimal damage to your body or your organs and you aren't left in critical condition and are able to still fight on.

Similarly, being knocked out by a powerful enough attack should not necessarily disallow scaling as long as the character in question was completely unharmed by the attack physically and internally and is able to go back to being combat ready quickly after waking up.

 

[KingTempest]

Thanks for the props Damage

 

[Nierre]

I think it would be important to talk about Heat/Fire Manipulation in connection with Durability. One of the biggest issues MHA had on the wiki was trying to scale people to Endeavor and Todoroki's heat. So idk where, but I think it's really imperative that it mentioned somewhere in the blog - As well as the logistics of it. How does one scale to heat in terms of durability, or is it just resistance to heat etc etc etc.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally speaking I would change No Sell and Tanking. No Sell is a wrestling term to indicate to not sell an attack. It didn't hurt or injure the wrestler. Tanking would be withstanding it with minimal effect.

Frieza's death beam for example did injure Goku, he bled from the attack. Pn the other hand Garou didn't damage Saitama in any capacity.

Though if we're going with strict definitions it's probably fine, though I would say we should watch out with how we use tank from now on.

 

[KLOL506]

I think it would be important to talk about Heat/Fire Manipulation in connection with Durability. One of the biggest issues MHA had on the wiki was trying to scale people to Endeavor and Todoroki's heat. So idk where, but I think it's really imperative that it mentioned somewhere in the blog - As well as the logistics of it. How does one scale to heat in terms of durability, or is it just resistance to heat etc etc etc.

No, heat feats are their own topic separate from this. DontTalkDT and DarkDragonMedeus have stated as much and explicitly gone through their way multiple times to deem it as such.

As for whether they scale to durability, aye, they do, but they'd be rated separately from physical dura and would not be granted as just resistance (Kinda like how we give separate AP for temperature-based feats and creation feats where there is no universal power source at play), unless of course you can prove that a universal power source is at play which allows scaling of supernatural powers to physicals and raise them to the same power level, or the feat in question has properties of physically pushing away stuff, like overpressure in an explosion (Basically prove that the feat has a blunt-force nature to it).

 

[Nierre]

No, heat feats are their own topic separate from this. DontTalkDT and DarkDragonMedeus have stated as much and explicitly gone through their way multiple times to deem it as such.

Apologies, I wasn't aware of this.

As for whether they scale to durability, aye, they do, but they'd be rated separately from physical dura and would not be granted as just resistance (Kinda like how we give separate AP for temperature-based feats and creation feats where there is no universal power source at play), unless of course you can prove that a universal power source is at play which allows scaling of supernatural powers to physicals and raise them to the same power level, or the feat in question has properties of physically pushing away stuff, like overpressure in an explosion (Basically prove that the feat has a blunt-force nature to it).

So would it be worth adding to the blog or no

 

[KLOL506]

So would it be worth adding to the blog or no

No, this would be case-by-case, or handled directly by the UES page.

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe there's a few thoughs I can contribute here.

First: showing no sign of pain from said physical attack should be cause for their Durability scaling to their Attack Potency. Must point up, that durability is not about pain, is about damage; as long characters possesses sensorial receptors they can always show sign of discomfort or pain. Aka, one do not scale to someone just cuz it made other character yell ausshh if there's no apparent damage (one may argue it caused internal damage, but that is something that needs to be proven). Likewise, just because someone showed no signal of discomfort or pain does not mean there were no real damage (naturally, it needs to be apparent).

Other factor to take account in scaling is the usage of weapons. Get Dragon Ball outside of your mind when doing scaling, most verses do not work like that; while in DB characters receive dozens of punches and hardly show signals of damage beyond scratches, in several verses battles do not go that way: equaly strong characters may oneshot each other with a direct attack; this generally happens due weapon usage, those of cutting and thrust nature. This being said, do not scale some character way above another one if this one oneshotted the other, if both as despicted as equals, they shalt remain as equal, and one oneshotting the other is not considered an inconsistency.

Similar to the point of above, even if there two characters fight, and one is despicted/demostrated way above the other (either due individual feats or was stated to do so), do not scale the weaker character to the stronger just because it did not suffer a major injury during the battle. That the weaker one fought the stronger one and the only injury was a cut in the weak character is not reason to scale, since no matter if one is 9-B and the other 7-A, a cut does not kill anyone. Naturally, I'm talking about attacks that didn't impact directly, or there's no proof of that happening.

 

[GyroNutz]

A bit nitpicky, but the reason why bee stings hurt isn't due to the piercing - you could accidentally pierce yourself with a needle without feeling much at all. It's because of the venom that they induce which activates pain receptors. I don't think that's a good example for the whole 'surface area' section.

 

[Damage3245]

A bit nitpicky, but the reason why bee stings hurt isn't due to the piercing - you could accidentally pierce yourself with a needle without feeling much at all. It's because of the venom that they induce which activates pain receptors. I don't think that's a good example for the whole 'surface area' section.

Fair enough, I'm happy for that to be changed to something more suitable.

 

[KLOL506]

A bit nitpicky, but the reason why bee stings hurt isn't due to the piercing - you could accidentally pierce yourself with a needle without feeling much at all. It's because of the venom that they induce which activates pain receptors. I don't think that's a good example for the whole 'surface area' section.

Was gonna point this out myself.

 

[KLOL506]

Other factor to take account in scaling is the usage of weapons. Get Dragon Ball outside of your mind when doing scaling, most verses do not work like that; while in DB characters receive dozens of punches and hardly show signals of damage beyond scratches, in several verses battles do not go that way: equaly strong characters may oneshot each other with a direct attack; this generally happens due weapon usage, those of cutting and thrust nature. This being said, do not scale some character way above another one if this one oneshotted the other, if both as despicted as equals, they shalt remain as equal, and one oneshotting the other is not considered an inconsistency.

Not even Dragon Ball is immune to this tho. cough Granolah getting shot in the back with a handgun cough Goku getting slammed by a ******* train cough

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well I'm all for a more updated page, and it looks good.

 

[Antoniofer]

Not even Dragon Ball is immune to this tho. cough Granolah getting shot in the back with a handgun cough Goku getting slammed by a ******* train cough

This would be a matter of consistency more. Either way, we may fall into the concept of cheap damage in these cases: if a character requires dozens and dozens of strikes to put it down, it can be said it receives cheap damage and that the AP of the enemy's attacks is just considerable below the character's Durability (aka, characters are considered stone walls). Although, this happens due tanking being a loose term.

Also, maybe worth covering game mechanics? Specifically health bars, chip damage, weak spots etc.

Health bars, or HP, tend to vary from verse to verse, most of which are bothered to elaborate it; others however, have meanings, few of which are more abstract than others; would say that most of the time is related to endurance/stamina than durability. As for weakspots, are far I known we no scale characters by damaging weakspots (like, if a creature can clearly invulnerable to another's attack, then the durability of that creature do not scale to the AP of the attacker even if the former damage the creature, since it needs to attack a weak spot).

 

[KLOL506]

This would be a matter of consistency more. Either way, we may fall into the concept of cheap damage in these cases: if a character requires dozens and dozens of strikes to put it down, it can be said it receives cheap damage and that the AP of the enemy's attacks is just considerable below the character's Durability (aka, characters are considered stone walls). Although, this happens due tanking being a loose term.

Neither of those were chip damage scenarios tho. Granolah and Goku were both fine in those cases having received little to negligible damage, until they weren't, and got gunned down and rammed by a train respectively.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I am iffy on the melee weapons example; it depends what type of sword but keep in mind that most melee weapons are merely just extensions of the people wielding them. I can see that being a policy for like an Adamantium Sword, but not for like a character demonstrating Tier X striking strengths using nothing but a regular iron sword. There also do exist magic swords that physically amp their users while wielders are holding on to them which may be a different can of worms in which their durability is only that strong when holding on to said magic sword. And trading blows with their weapons is also a different can of worms.

But other premises look good with KLOL and DontTalkDT's comments to take into account.

 

[Damage3245]

If anyone has any rewordings for sections of the sandbox, feel free to post them here and I can add them in.

 

[Duedate8898]

Looks fine for the most part, Haemoptysis is the only odd thing to me, cause I'm not sure if it's saying we shouldn't treat someone punching someone else and then that person coughing up blood as a reason to scale or if we should be cautious when doing so. The section is a bit unclear on that I think.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll see if I can make the alterations to the sandbox this weekend.

Other people are free to edit the sandbox too, though I'd prefer if they posted their suggested text alterations here first.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Agnaa]

I mostly like the OP's suggestion. I agree with DT, Qawsed, and Antoniofer's points.

If the page is changed in accordance with DT's concerns about surviving attacks sometimes being a durability feat, I'd like a note cautioning that scaling to attacks survived with extreme amounts of damage should be done on a case-by-case basis. To continue DT's example, if someone survives a 20 Gt explosion as a bloody, but alive, mess on the ground incapable of fighting, a 5 Gt character shouldn't be upgraded to 20 Gt for slightly bruising them with a punch.

I can see that being a policy for like an Adamantium Sword, but not for like a character demonstrating Tier X striking strengths using nothing but a regular iron sword

If this is incorporated, I would caution that 9-C SS with a regular sword shouldn't give the character 9-C durability, since it's something ordinary humans can do.

 

[Antvasima]

So what currently needs to be done here based on what DontTalk and the other staff members here said?