Eida vs Goku

[Purgy]

Lol I hope you know she can see the past right. She knows sasuke is the best genjustu user In the series showing resistance greater than anyone and she still thinks even him is going to be affected. I can’t argue this with you has this is a lore of the series Hence the kawaki and boruto mission Right now.

There's no proof she knows that, she doesn't have complete passive knowledge of everything that ever occured, she can simply look into any past or present event actively, she's not omniscient, it's just retrocognition and clairovoyance.

Also, I want to point out that Sasuke sees through Genjutsu specifically, Eida's ability has nothing to do with Genjutsu, like at all.

This is similar to why we don't just give a bunch of characters resistance to Genjutsu off the basis that Sasuke never tried to use it on them, Eida needs to explicitly either use her ability on someone with resistance or it needs to be stated that her ability is > Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi/Infinite Tsukuyomi etc, otherwise there's no reason to grant her the layers of Genjutsu.

 

[Purgy]

Ok hear me out….does ultra instinct kinda get around this? Because I’m pretty sure it’s said that all emotions get completely dissolved into flames as Goku’s fighting his opponent. And his body works completely automatically.

And passively. So wouldn’t he be good?

Probably not because Eida's ability works on an instinctual/unconscious level and MUI is Goku relying on instinct

 

[Trax]

Have you watched naruto before? Honestly I can’t even find resistance to mind manipulation on goku’s page.

Yes I have but no way does sasuke have better illusion resistance than goku.

 

[theultimate5105]

She said her ability doesn't work on relatives or Otsutsuki, however, Eida isn't omniscient and can't see the future, she'd have no way of knowing if it works on Sasuke.

Shikamaru flat out states that Boruto and Kawaki are Konoha’s only people that are immune to it.
He got this knowledge from Amado who gave her her power

 

[Samlex1234]

There's no proof she knows that, she doesn't have complete passive knowledge of everything that ever occured, she can simply look into any past or present event actively, she's not omniscient, it's just retrocognition and clairovoyance.

Also, I want to point out that Sasuke sees through Genjutsu specifically, Eida's ability has nothing to do with Genjutsu, like at all.

This is similar to why we don't just give a bunch of characters resistance to Genjutsu off the basis that Sasuke never tried to use it on them, Eida needs to explicitly either use her ability on someone with resistance or it needs to be stated that her ability is > Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi/Infinite Tsukuyomi etc, otherwise there's no reason to grant her the layers of Genjutsu.

you totally missed the part where I said this is a lore in the series. The author literally used Amado to explain the ability of Aida again sasuke and narUto gets affected. That is the whole point of ada character and why she has to settle for kawaki. Because everyone is her capgive

again sasuke resistance to mind manipulation is still greater than goku infact I don’t see any resistance on his page . How will goku resist a character that has passive empathetic manipulation and mind manipulation when he has No resistance to mind manipulation.

 

[Samlex1234]

Yes I have but no way does sasuke have better illusion resistance than goku.

No this is false and nobody agrees with you not even vs wiki, has why goku page has no resistance to mind manipulation.

 

[Purgy]

Shikamaru flat out states that Boruto and Kawaki are Konoha’s only people that are immune to it

Shikamaru isn't omniscient either

And this point still stands

I want to point out that Sasuke sees through Genjutsu specifically, Eida's ability has nothing to do with Genjutsu, like at all.

Sasuke being affected by her ability isn't indicative of her ability overcoming his resistance, because his resistance is to Genjutsu which has nothing in common with Eida's ability

Of course we treat it as "mind manipulation" here, but when we're talking about two characters in the same verse, there's no reason to generalize it like that.

 

[Maitreya12]

you totally missed the part where I said this is a lore in the series. The author literally used Amado to explain the ability of Aida again sasuke and narUgo gets affected. That is the whole point of ada character and why she has to settle for kawaki.

again sasuke resistance to mind manipulation is still greater than goku infact I don’t see any resistance on his page . How will goku resist a character that has passive empathetic manipulation and mind manipulation when he has No resistance to mind manipulation.

Goku has direct resistance to empathetic manipulation.

In fact the very kind that forces its target to fall in love with you too.

 

[Samlex1234]

Shikamaru isn't omniscient either

And this point still stands

Sasuke being affected by her ability isn't indicative of her ability overcoming his resistance, because his resistance is to Genjutsu which has nothing in common with Eida's ability

Of course we treat it as "mind manipulation" here, but when we're talking about two characters in the same verse, there's no reason to generalize it like that.

Lol yes sasuke has resistance to genjustu which is mind manipulation. We treat it has such in this wiki.

 

[Maitreya12]

This person has used empathetic manipulation on all the Saiyans and it had zero affect. So yes Goku does resist empathetic manipulation.

 

[Purgy]

Lol yes sasuke has resistance to genjustu which is mind manipulation. We treat it has such in this wiki.

Yes I'm aware of that, but again, this is a discussion about two characters in the same verse so it's a little different

Verse equalization means Sasuke's resistance applies to most forms of mind manip outside the verse, but in verse it's specifically a resistance to Genjutsu, which Eida's ability isn't, so her ability working on Sasuke doesn't necessarily mean she overcame his resistances.

 

[Samlex1234]

Goku has direct resistance to empathetic manipulation.

In fact the very kind that forces its target to fall in love with you too.

This person has used empathetic manipulation on all the Saiyans and it had zero affect. So yes Goku does resist empathetic manipulation.

I can’t find this on her page.

 

[Ss3micah]

I think Goku would take this for 3 reasons:

1. Range. SBA range is 4km and Eida's charming lacks feats of working at that range (otherwise she would have charmed Naruto and Sasuke when they were right outside the door). Goku can easily spam and snipe with Ki attacks which has Insane AoE Explosion Range and anyone will take Eida out.

2.Not entirely confirmed but Eida's ability not working on Otsutsuki is likely due to them being not human (in physiology) hence why Boruto and Kawaki who have become partial otsutsuki are immune. Goku is Saiyan not a human.

3. Even assuming it can affect Goku its not like the ability cant be resisted at all via Sheer Willpower. Thats literally how Shikamaru resisted her (albeit breifly) and Goku has way more will power that him. I definitely can see goku walking up to Eida, starting to fall in love, flaring up his Ki and Aura to resist and Eida gets taken out by AP Aura Vape/Ki explosion wave

This is all of course my thoughts and opinions

 

[AwkguyDB]

I can’t find this on her page.

Seduction Hypnosis (Via Light of Love; Creates a gas that forces the target into a state of love with its aroma

 

[Maitreya12]

I can’t find this on her page.

Under the link “forces the target into a state of love” is a direct link to empathetic manipulation.

 

[Samlex1234]

I think Goku would take this for 3 reasons:

1. Range. SBA range is 4km and Eida's charming lacks feats of working at that range (otherwise she would have charmed Naruto and Sasuke when they were right outside the door). Goku can easily spam and snipe with Ki attacks which has Insane AoE Explosion Range and anyone will take Eida out.

2.Not entirely confirmed but Eida's ability not working on Otsutsuki is likely due to them being not human (in physiology) hence why Boruto and Kawaki who have become partial otsutsuki are immune. Goku is Saiyan not a human.

3. Even assuming it can affect Goku its not like the ability cant be resisted at all via Sheer Willpower. Thats literally how Shikamaru resisted her and Goku has way more will power that him. I definitely can see goku walking up to Eida, starting to fall in love, flaring up his Ki and Aura to resist and Eida gets taken out by Aura Vape/Ki explosion wave

This is all of course my thoughts and opinions

1 This would mean goku know about her powers which I can debate if that is the basis of the vs battle
2. Assumptions/ hasty generalizations, also her family members are not affected and they her humans.
3. resisting her abilities via will power will cause your mind to break read eidas page.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why Sasuke is mentioned here?

 

[Purgy]

Why Sasuke is mentioned here?

Because people are trying to give Eida like 8+ layers for her ability because she may be able to affect Sasuke even though she hasn't yet

Though this doesn't make much sense because Sasuke's resistance within the Naruto verse is specifically to Genjutsu, which Eida's ability isn't

 

[Maitreya12]

1 This would mean goku know about her powers which I can debate if that is the basis of the vs battle
2. Assumptions/ hasty generalizations, also her family members are not affected and they her humans.
3. resisting her abilities via will power will cause your mind to break read eidas page.

Define “mind break” here because goku could just resist that too since they’ve resisted similar mind breaking manipulation before.

Oh and mind you he’d only need to resist it enough to say flick his fingers. So if the first stages are simple fevers and headaches, then he could just get out before his mind breaks to do a simple action.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Wait wait, are you guys assuming this beautiful lady is winning against him because of mind manipulation/social influencing?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Well she is beautiful..

 

[Ss3micah]

1 This would mean goku know about her powers which I can debate if that is the basis of the vs battle

Goku 50/50 will start with ranged attacks against opponents he's unfamiliar with or simply do so to test how fast his opponent can react to his moves. Its called Strategy. Goku occasionally does this

2. Assumptions/ hasty generalizations, also her family members are not affected and they her humans.

I told you it was not confirmed didn't I? Also its a pretty darn good assumption unless you wanna assume that Otutsuki's are naturally resistant/immune to empathic/mind manipulation

3. resisting her abilities via will power will cause your mind to break read eidas page.

It does not happen instantly otherwise Shikamaru should be a Vegetable right now. Goku only would need 3-5 secs of being under the effects before he starts flaring his Ki to resist and Shikamaru held on to his mind and resisted FAR longer than that

 

[ImmortalDread]

Guys, a similar case happened, and the OP guy got almost banned for it. Close this thread dude, you are not seriously debating for this because she got some type of mind manipulation/social influencing. Really now? At max, he would be simp and does not want to fight, but moreover, if he is serious she is dead in one blink.

 

[theultimate5105]

Goku 50/50 will start with ranged attacks against opponents he's unfamiliar with or simply do so to test how fast his opponent can react to his moves. Its called Strategy. Goku occasionally does this

I told you it was not confirmed didn't I? Also its a pretty darn good assumption unless you wanna assume that Otutsuki's are naturally resistant/immune to empathic/mind manipulation

It does not happen instantly otherwise Shikamaru should be a Vegetable right now. Goku only would need 3-5 secs of being under the effects before he starts flaring his Ki to resist and Shikamaru held on to his mind and resisted FAR longer than that

Shikamaru only resisted the Empathetic portion he never resisted the mind manipulation portion

 

[Trax]

I can’t find this on her page.

Thats because vsbw having or not. Doesn't mean someone is wrong, that was your only reason for me being wrong since he "didn't have mind manip resistance on his list". They don't have mind manipulation resistance on vegeta's thing and yet vegeta did this.

Vegeta speaking about saiyans in general therefore I think it's reasonable to say goku also has some type of resistance to mind manipulation.

 

[Purgy]

Shikamaru only resisted the Empathetic portion he never resisted the mind manipulation portion

So the mind manip aspect isn't passive and Goku blitzes and one shots?

You can't it both ways lol

 

[Ss3micah]

Shikamaru only resisted the Empathetic portion he never resisted the mind manipulation portion

Im simply refering to fact Shikamaru was not INSTANTLY mind broken
Remember Eida has NO CONTROL over her ability and Shikamaru (with no resistance to mind hax) was able to be under the effects of Eida's ability, actively trying to resist and and not having his mind instantly shattered nor having it shattered over what i can only assume to be a 10s or more time period. Thats more than enough time for GOKU to start resisting, flare his aura AT LEAST 1 TIME and take Eida out (and this is assuming Goku does not resist)

 

[ImmortalDread]

Goku absolutely stomps this match. This is my take.

 

[Ss3micah]

Goku absolutely stomps this match. This is my take.

Eida's ability only comes into play on the 50% chance goku decides to start in the range of her ability (In other hands H2H). And even assuming goku resorts to getting close, there is always the matter Goku just simply resists or accidently Kills Eida by excessively releasing his Aura while trying to resist.

On the other 50% chance Goku decides to start range Ki attacks, Eida gets rekt

More times that not
Goku takes this

 

[Trax]

Eida's ability only comes into play on the 50% chance goku decides to start in the range of her ability (In other hands H2H). And even assuming goku resorts to getting close, there is always the matter Goku just simply resists or accidently Kills Eida by excessively releasing his Aura while trying to resist.

On the other 50% chance Goku decides to start range Ki attacks, Eida gets rekt

More times that not
Goku takes this

Goku breaths and eida dies

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is clear stomps lmfao. Just close it, a similar thread was alr made with huge gap and the only argument they brought was "Goku does not resist social influence".

The OP was almost banned (and he is banned now) for this.

 

[Trax]

This is clear stomps lmfao. Just close it, a similar thread was alr made with huge gap and the only argument they brought was "Goku does not resist social influence".

The OP was almost banned (and he is banned now) for this.

I think thats not even how social influencing works. Eida has empathic manipulation.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Goku fra

 

[Chariot190]

Not reading the whole thread because lmao I don't got a horse in this so it might have been answered, but Goku's emp res comes from being unaffected by the magical girl's empath hax in the ToP while a handful of others were if memory serves.

 

[YungManzi]

Shikamaru isn't omniscient either

And this point still stands

So statements from a few of the most intelligent characters in the series about resistance doesn’t mean anything?

 

[Greatsage13th]

So statements from a few of the most intelligent characters in the series about resistance doesn’t mean anything?

He wasn't really sure about it either

 

[YungManzi]

I think Goku would take this for 3 reasons:

1. Range. SBA range is 4km and Eida's charming lacks feats of working at that range (otherwise she would have charmed Naruto and Sasuke when they were right outside the door). Goku can easily spam and snipe with Ki attacks which has Insane AoE Explosion Range and anyone will take Eida out.

This is such an ooc move for Goku, it’s quite the ridiculous assertion.

Goku would never snipe someone with Ki Attacks before they are even aware of his existence. He’s literally never done that.

 

[Deceived3596]

People arguing that since Dojutsu like the Sharingan and Rinnegan give you inherent resistances to Genjutsu, which has Mind Manipulation capabilities. And that Eida's ability is Mind Manipulation it means Eida's ability must be layered since it can possibly effect people with these specific Dojutsu with her Mind Manipulation need to stop thinking about this in a VSBW context and understand that these Dojutsu only grants people resistances to Genjutsu specifically, Eida's ability isn't Genjutsu so these people's resistances towards it wouldn't mean her ability is layered by any-means.

Just because Eida's ability is Mind Manipulation and Empathetic Manipulation it doesn't mean being resistant towards Mind Manipulation and Empathetic Manipulation in Naruto would grant you resistances to Eida's ability inherently, there are inverse mechanics that people seem to suddenly forget about just to wank their character.

Goku resist's both abilities and has a massive stats advantage on Eida, he speed blitz's and one shots her.

This is a stomp.

 

[YungManzi]

People arguing that since Dojutsu like the Sharingan and Rinnegan give you inherent resistances to Genjutsu, which has Mind Manipulation capabilities. And that Eida's ability is Mind Manipulation it means Eida's ability must be layered since it can possibly effect people with these specific Dojutsu with her Mind Manipulation need to stop thinking about this in a VSBW context and understand that these Dojutsu only grants people resistances to Genjutsu specifically, Eida's ability isn't Genjutsu so these people's resistances towards it wouldn't mean her ability is layered by any-means.

Just because Eida's ability is Mind Manipulation and Empathetic Manipulation it doesn't mean being resistant towards Mind Manipulation and Empathetic Manipulation in Naruto would grant you resistances to Eida's ability inherently, there are inverse mechanics that people seem to suddenly forget about just to wank their character.

Goku resist's both abilities and has a massive stats advantage on Eida, he speed blitz's and one shots her.

This is a stomp.

The problem with this line of thinking is that this argument can be used to counter literally any in-verse hax scaling that even has a minute possibility of being non-linear.

_______ only has stated resistance to Soul crushing, so even though another ability which pretty much does the same thing can be used on ________, it's a different power in-verse so they cannot be scaled to one another.

That sets a shaky precedence THAT WE DEFINITELY DO NOT APPLY TO ALL OTHER VERSES ON THE WIKI.

That would literally nuke verses like Bleach, Reincarnated as a Slime, and even Dragonball itself. (Zeno's EE would not be layered since he's not using Hakai but another kind of EE)

Sounds like you guys just don't want Goku to lose here.

 

[Ss3micah]

The problem with this line of thinking is that this argument can be used to counter literally any in-verse hax scaling that even has a minute possibility of being non-linear.

_______ only has stated resistance to Soul crushing, so even though another ability which pretty much does the same thing can be used on ________, it's a different power in-verse so they cannot be scaled to one another.

Tbf YungManzi

The general principle behind Genjutsu as a whole is more so Illusion Creation Hax more than anything else
Eida's ability has nothing to do with Illusion's whatsoever so you can't say Genjutsu and Eida's ability does pretty much the same thing
While Genjutsu and Eida's ability both affects the Mind, they clearly do so through different means, Genjutsu messes with one's chakra flow to induce a variety of effects while Eida's ability pretty much affects one's subconscious and induces mind breaking because your trying actively resist her power.

There are clear enough differences to show that Eida's power is neither Genjutsu nor operates like one but is rather it's own unique skill
And as for stacking Genjutsu Mind Resistance untop of Eida's ability.... That's a really slippery slope that you would be trying to go up...

Resistance to Genjutsu Mind Manipulation doesn't mean your naturally resistant to every form of Mind Manipulation there is....
Genjutsu Mind Hax resistance is purely and solely through genjutsu which works by affecting one's charkra flow. Eida's ability manipulates the mind by affecting the targets subconscious, simple as that. Eida never overlayered a Genjutsu Based Mind Resistance, she simply Mind Haxed through another means that character does not resist at all.

That would literally nuke verses like Bleach, Reincarnated as a Slime, and even Dragonball itself. (Zeno's EE would not be layered since he's not using Hakai but another kind of EE)

As for your example here with Hakai that the GoD uses and Erase that Zeno uses. Both are admittedly two different techniques but both have the SAME effect of Erasing a Target from existence. Genjutsu and Eida's ability have vaguely similar but not the exact same effects and ultimately achieve there effects through different means. (I mean name a singe time in the series any Genjutsu induced the same effects Eida's ability did). The Hakai and Erase techniques achieve the same effect through the same means, erasing a target's body, mind and soul from existing, with Erase just being admittedly more powerful

This is just my understanding of the situation though