Everyone wants to upgrade this guy.

[Adem_Warlock69]

Everyone wants Superman to be Universal,So I'm making a thread about it...that's it......

Feats and Scaling!!!

-Remember when Post crisis fought Old Golden age Supes? Well did you know that they were Shaking the space time continuum apart, shattered a space time continuum,and could rewrite Timelines? and were stated that they were destroying each others Universe,not once,not twice,but Three times?!,well now you know.

-Superman fought Nebula guy,and they scale as Supes took his beam with barely no damage and made him scream and run away, who's a universe

-Superman has fought Brainiac 13and tanked lots of his hits with no damage and if you didn't know, Brainiac 13 is the Guy, who can ravage Timelines and rewrites those timelines

-Superman Fought 30th century Mordru who had all of the magical power of a universe.

-Superman is comparable to Orio ,and Orion tankeda bombcapable of annihilating a Universe,and has 1/5th the power of the Big Bang

-Superman survived a hit from Time Trapper Superboy

-Tanked a black hole that was going to consume the universe

-Superman's heat vision made up one fourth of the power to create another Universse

-I don't think I need to show you why Superman and Martion Man Hunter are comparable, who rocked Superboy Prime

-Superman and Wonder woman Shook the heavens

-Superman keept up with monarth

-Captain Atom said Superman>Himself

-Supes survived an encounter with a tesseract swarm

-Kept up with Dominus with the Theta state

- can fight the Queen of Fables, who is an extra-dimensional embodiment of evil folklore, and can withstand attacks from 4-D when she's utilising four-dimensional energy.

,- Casually overpowered Brainiac's attacks

- Superma fought the Red King, who ca reshape the universe and destroy possibilities containing universes one by one, as well as having created the universe with his dreams.

-My boy Supes tanked Aztek's self-Destruction which is 4-Dimensional

-Superman ca withstand attacks from and damage the Lord of Time, who is four-dimensional.

- Superman overwhelmed Starman, who ca defeat Darklord Maaldor, who ca become a universe this is likely Pre-Crisis, so it can be dismissed.

-Superman tanked a Universal storm caused by Dr alchemy

and before someone says "Higher dimensional doesn't mean Universal"

DC has consistently treated higher dimensions as mathematically superior infinities just like always

 

[JohnCenaNation]

What's the context behind everyone of these feats?

 

[Planck69]

>3-A Supes

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What's the context behind everyone of these feats?

The Superman vs Superman fight and the MMH feat happned in Infinite Crisis | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5 April 2006, Superman Vol 2 #226 April 2006, Action Comics Vol 1 #836 April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 April 2006

his figh against Nebula man in JLA Classified Vol 1 #3 March 2005

he fought 30th century Mordru and brainiac 13 in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol 1 #4 June 2009

the 1/4th the power to create a universe happened in Zero Hour Vol 1 #0 September 1994

 

[JohnCenaNation]

What's the context behind everyone of these feats?

The Superman vs Superman fight and the MMH feat happned in Infinite Crisis | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5 April 2006, Superman Vol 2 #226 April 2006, Action Comics Vol 1 #836 April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 April 2006
his figh against Nebula man in JLA Classified Vol 1 #3 March 2005

he fought 30th century Mordru and brainiac 13 in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol 1 #4 June 2009

the 1/4th the power to create a universe happened in Zero Hour Vol 1 #0 September 1994

Okay thanks.

 

[LordTracer]

That Doctor Sivana stuff is from Pre-Crisis, mate.

So is the Monarch stuff.

The Lord of Time feat was performed by Superman-Blue, not base Superman.

Pretty sure the Starman thing is Pre-Crisis as well.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

You're right about the Doctor Sivana one, guess I will remove it

But the Monarch stuff came from Armageddon 2001 #2: Monarch Revealed which happened in 1991, so post-crisis

And I thought Superman blue was equal to base Superman?

Don't know...

 

[LordTracer]

Interesting, it looks like a Pre-Crisis type of artstyle.

Is he? If he is, then that's fine, but I don't recall ever seeing anything that showed Superman-Blue = Base Superman.

I'm pretty sure it is, as I recall the Darklord Maaldor thing being used as an AP justification for Pre-Crisis Superman back when he was 3-A/Low 2-C.

 

[Spinoirr]

I mean you can't argue with the facts.... But at the same time I would put a likely or possibly for his profile just in case

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I mean you can't argue with the facts.... But at the same time I would put a likely or possibly for his profile just in case

That seems good

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Interesting, it looks like a Pre-Crisis type of artstyle.
Is he? If he is, then that's fine, but I don't recall ever seeing anything that showed Superman-Blue = Base Superman.

I'm pretty sure it is, as I recall the Darklord Maaldor thing being used as an AP justification for Pre-Crisis Superman back when he was 3-A/Low 2-C.

In the beginning of Post-Crisis the artstyle was similar to Pre-Crisis.

I really don't know, I can't find anything about him anywhere,I can only find scans for some of his Hax.

I put "this is likely Pre-Crisis , so it can be dismissed" because it seems like Pre-Crisis

 

[LordTracer]

Honestly, I'd be fine with Low 2-C Post-C Superman, but I'd suggest nobody get their hopes up.

 

[Buttersamuri]

He also shake the universe with Wonder Women, Tank a black hole that destroyed the universe,

And since the DC universe is several times bigger than a normal one, it should be above universal to be at the center of it, and a degree into it by creating 1/4th of the Big Bang

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

He also shake the universe with Wonder Women, Tank a black hole that destroyed the universe,
And since the DC universe is several times bigger than a normal one, it should be above universal to be at the center of it, and a degree into it by creating 1/4th of the Big Bang

Can you please give me the Scans of these feats? They would make 3-A/Low 2-C Superman more likely

 

[Buttersamuri]

Can you please give me the Scans of these feats? They would make 3-A/Low 2-C Superman more likely

Sure. I was updating it atm to have links

He also shook the heavens with Wonder Wome

Tanked a black hole that could destroy the universe

After spending some time in the sun , he pushes a planet called "Warworld", which is as big as Pluto, and is powered by Imperiex, who was being powered by the Big Bang

survived attacks from Dominus, as well,

here's a overpowering brainacs attacks

And since the DC universe is several times bigger than a normal one, as this guy confirms crossing at least 100 trillion light years, it should be above universal to be at the center of it, and a degree into it by creating 1/4th of the Big Bang (I can only provide the link of where it's stated a size for it)

 

[Buttersamuri]

Oh. On top of that. go to 2:10 here. The Anti moniter whole extremely weakened decided to go suicide and absorb all the power of his universe to try and kill super. And it failed. That as well

 

[TheBestBoi]

this has been discussed for like 4 years now, most recent thread was here https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3495804 he's supposed universal feats seem to be taken out of context most of the time, firestorm made good arguments against those

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

this has been discussed for like 4 years now, most recent thread was here https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3495804 he's supposed universal feats seem to be taken out of context most of the time, firestorm made good arguments against those

Well there's some that are definitely Low 2-C, like his fight with Golden age and Brainiac 13 and Him surviving an angry Time Trapper Superboy's hit, and The 4-D feats are also Universal+ as In DC (Post crisis) higher Dimensions are mathematically superior infinites, and I don't get some of his debunks, like the Nebula man one,What does he mean Superman's punch had no effect? Nebula man screamed in pain.

And I also made this thread because there's peaple talking about how they want Universal Superman, so I did it?

And I think if they give Superman "possibly/probably/likely Low 2-C" it would be better.

 

[TheBestBoi]

he does have them, albeit a few, his fight against golden age superman is legit low 2-c, though against brainiac 13 and nebula man they seem to be insufficient to warrant an upgrade. You can ask the dc experts to comment here

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

he does have them, albeit a few, his fight against golden age superman is legit low 2-c, though against brainiac 13 and nebula man they seem to be insufficient to warrant an upgrade. You can ask the dc experts to comment here

There are more feats, like MMH damaging Superboy prime, Superman surviving Time Trapper Superboy's blast, and the feats of Superman fighting or beating 4-D beings, there's also There's also that time where MMH stopped a Universal busting explosion with his bare hands

 

[NinganO4]

How is Superman trying to destroy the philosopher stone a universe busting explosion?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

How is Superman trying to destroy the philosopher stone a universe busting explosion?

It was stated that it would have destroyed everything and is stated that MMH saved the universe by blocking the Philosopher stone's blast

 

[NinganO4]

What are you talking about? In that story arc we literally see the future when the philosopher stone got destroyed, and it's just ruled by darkseid. Not even earth got destroyed when that happened.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What are you talking about? In that story arc we literally see the future when the philosopher stone got destroyed, and it's just ruled by darkseid. Not even earth got destroyed when that happened.

We don't know how Darkseid destroyed it, so he could have destroyed it without wishing for it to be destroyed

 

[Buttersamuri]

I think considering we have a decently large list of the feats, there are certainly more that we missing. I know there's like 3 instances of him destroying realms. Several iirc. Plus all of this above. Universal seems more at least. Above that is a likely.

Also should consider the fact DC Universe size >>> our universe size. It's several times bigger. So every universal feat is closer to Universal+ - Multi. feats like Making and surviving the Big Bang, surviving a universal destroying black hole, the anti monitors suicidal universal absorbing attack, Ect, all would have more than universal destruction as being much bigger than a normal universe

 

[LordTracer]

The universe being bigger doesn't make it go from universal to universal+...

 

[Buttersamuri]

The universe being bigger doesn't make it go from universal to universal+...

Being slightly bigger wouldn't. But being several times bigger than a normal universe would. I looked up and saw a diameter was put at 98 billion. Meaning this DV universe would be more than 10 times bigger if using that. At the very least. Assuming that's the right size for our universe. I've heard less sizes like 13 billion.

 

[LordTracer]

No, it still wouldn't. Universal, aka 3-A, is third-dimensional. Universal+, aka Low 2-C, is fourth-dimensional. There's two levels of infinity between them, the universe being bigger doesn't make you jump those tiers.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ3FMnzBJ4

 

[Buttersamuri]

I also wanna note. There is feats other characters have that could scale them to such a degree. Even Aquama has a Multiversal feat

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Also why doesn't MMH have High Regen?To kill him you need to smash all his atoms

 

[FanofRPGs]

Why do people still use the Dominus feats ffs. His mind hax Ôëá his actual raw power, he was far weaker than Kismet and had to use Superman to lure her out and surprise her off guard and hopefully siphon/absorb her powers. He was far more powerful than Superman and his hax was completely negated due to its inherent function, that being it afflicts conscious minds which Superman learned to bypass by going into the theta state. This has nothing to do with power; Dominus wouldn't be able to mindhax a person in a coma either theoretically given their unconscious. Yet Superman still was losing against Dominus with Dominus' hax neutered and had to use Dominus' hax's vividness against him by dumping him in the Phantom Zone with a replica Phantom Projector.

The black hole from Where is Thy Sting is just a dream. It was all just a dream if you actually read the story.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Also you are posting dozens of feats which radically vary from anywhere 3-B to 1-B, there is no consistent tier here. You are just posting feats which makes Superman abstract tier range, damn the specific tier. That's not how it works. We didn't get 4-B Superman by making a golden means of several 5-A to 4-A feats, we got him 4-B because had had a consistent majority of 4-B feats.

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Buttersami do you have the scan for them shaking the universe?

 

[FanofRPGs]

As for the Infinite Crisis feat, the multiverse was destabilized with Golden Age Earth appearing there there thanks to Alexander Luthor's machinations. There being two Earths there was causing reality to merge and warp, not helped by the clash of opposing worldviews and memories seen from the two Supermen, and it got even worse as Luthor brought even more Earths into the fray.

Also, you guys are so obsessed with feats feats feats and the raw literal lowest IQ interpretation of events that you can't even understand "worlds shattering" is referring to their very worldview shattering. Golden Age Superman had his world shattered as he was experiencing the memories of Post Crisis Superman in a morally grey edgier and more jaded world while Post Crisis Superman was experiencing memories of Golden Age Superman in the morally black-white idealistic age of the 30s. That's what they meant when they said the world was shattering; their literal worldview was being shattered as they experiencing the conflicting tones of their stories. The whole point of Infinite Crisis thematically was a commentary on how Post Crisis has grown the facade of morally ambiguity and pessimism and how it compares to Pre-Crisis. It was a metaphor, not to be taken literally

 

[FanofRPGs]

Also

>Legit trying to use Byrne Era feats when every other issue went out of its way to show Supes, Monarch, Darkseid, everyone was weaker than pre-crisis by miles

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Most of those feats are 3-A to Low 2-C, where did the 1-B even come from? And No, the void Hound feat is 4-A and most of his 4-B feat are Super Casual.

And no, They where destroying the boundaries of space and Time, that's literally stated, and they were both Sure that they would destroy Each others Universe.

And So what? Pre-Crisis is 2-C, where Post crisis and Darkseid are Low 2-C

 

[FanofRPGs]

The void hound isn't 4-A. Read the actual scans and stories. They were "killing" star systems as in going in planet by planet razing them with very specific weaponry and then destroying their star. And when they fought the JLA, it was using its point defense weapons, not it's unknown means star busting technology. We have no proof any of its weapons does a 1-shot engulf solar system explosion, let alone point defense weaponry.

And again the multiverse was destabilized by there being two Earths there at that time. Alexander Luthor brought two Earths there at that moment to merge them which was ******* over reality, he then proceeded to bring even more over. The punches were being done at a time when the balance of existence hung on a thread and was already shattering and breaking down.

Byrne Era Superman refers to Superman between 1986-1992 (Kind of a generalization, specificically means 1986-1988 before Jurgens took the helm, so Pre-Zero Hour would better fit as that was a major crisis event in 1994), characters at that time were shown time and time again to be orders of magnitudes weaker than both Pre-Crisis and Post-Zero Hour. Trying to use scaling feats there means nothing because they were all far weaker. Even Monarch. Every other issue it will be shown Superman's peak speed is only a couple times FTL tops, or that his full strength is shaking the planet or surviving a 40 megaton nuke. This is undeniable and you are dead wrong if you try to use scaling feats like him fighting Monarch to prove tier 2 for Byrne Era Superman. The entire of the JLA and Fourth World at the time pre-Zero Hour in the Byrne Era were just much weaker. Fighting Monarch isn't nearly as impressive back then.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Okay so I read the Queen of Fables Storyline (JLA 47-49) and IDK about the 4-D stuff must happen in a later issue, but in the main storyline the Queen of Fables wasn't directly fighting them there at all; she was taking stories from each hero's folklore and having them fight it. Superman wasn't fighting a direct manifestation of the Queen of Fables, he was fighting a beast from Kryptonian legend who was also under a yellow sun. Jon was fighting this candle monster from his own folklore. Wonder Woman comes from Greco-Roman Mythology so she was being bound by the webs of spiders, alluding to the myth of Arachne. They were spawned by the Queen of Fables, but we have no proof they scale to her.

And sure, she can withstand 4-D energy, but that's not why they defeated her. They didn't physically beat her. The Queen of Fables' whole modus operandi is manipulating fiction and fantasy and thriving on its magical and unreal properties. She saw herself existing in a fictional world of knights and goblins and dwarevs and woodsmen and magic mirrors. Diana's whip, IIRC it's magic but that doesn't matter, focuses on truth and reality, hence why it is called "The Lasso of Truth." When the Queen of Fables accidentaly took hold of it, she witnessed the scientific and grounded nature of the real world, that she can age, that life is transient, and from experiencing the reality of the universe she lost. In fact, in order to keep her powerless for ever, they sealed her inside a tax-code book, again showing she has no power over physical scientific reality.

She was not defeated physically, she was defeated by the fact that she was trying to push fantasy and fiction in a world where none of it existed and she was forced to face the consequences of being in a world where she could age and she couldn't summon minotaurs. So in other words, the JLA never really did scale physically to her.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Sorry I can't change stuff now, in a few hours I'll get rid of the problems and add things I missed, and I'll respond to why I think The Void haund is 4-A and why Superman vs Superman was Low 2-C