[Fairy Tail] It ain't just Neo Eclipse that's Low 2-C, Zeref is too (Admin Vote Required)

[Saqphire]

Following this downgrade thread being rejected, there were some posts discussing on whether Zeref himself would scale to Neo Eclipse, which is currently rated as Low 2-C - Universe Level+ to which most people, including staff and former staff, had agreed with. This is merely a formal thread mentioning the arguments themselves, and who would scale with it.

The Main Argument
Neo Eclipse was created extremely casually, with Zeref having exerted almost no effort doing so, yet when he used Dark Blast Inferno / Ankoku Bakuenjin, it took way more effort, way more emotion and way more AP to do so.

This feat was capable of being done thanks to Zeref using Fairy Heart's total power. We know this is the case because he was clashing with Natsu who was also exerting all of his power (which he implies by saying "burn it all, everything that I am" and that he was "burnt out" after using it), and when Natsu won the clash, Zeref lost the form. This would mean that Natsu had to burn not just Dark Flame Inferno, but the magic that it was accompanied with as well, which is Fairy Heart. As such, Fairy Heart should scale to Low 2-C here.


Supporting Arguments

Space-Time Control + Apex of All Magic
Zeref mentioned himself that with Fairy Heart, space, time and everything was his to control. This means that, hypothetically, he should be able to do whatever he wants with all of space-time really, which supports the form being capable of significantly affecting the Universe.

He follows it up with how it is the pinnacle of all magic. The last statement is especially important because Fairy Heart being the apex of magic means that his magic would be superior to Neo Eclipse anyway (as well as the Tier 2 feats in the ECSK arc that were declared as outliers).

Infinite Power (no, not just quantity)
Fairy Heart is stated on multiple occasions to have infinite magic/magic power, Mavis even makes sure to exhaust the synonyms for unlimited such as "perpetual, limitless, and eternal" as well as a source of magic that will never run dry, so there is absolutely zero room to declare the statements to be hyperbolic here due to narrative intent.

She explains further that Fairy Heart is basically Etherion being capable of being fired an infinite amount of times (basically Etherion AP x infinity) and even elaborates that Fairy Heart wouldn't "hold" infinite magic as that suggests that it has a limit, which it doesn't. That directly refutes the part where Fairy Heart would merely have quantity while outputting finite AP because that interpretation suggests it holds that magic. Zeref supports the interpretation by saying Fairy Heart has infinite magic power, which can be interpretted to mean magic output here. Although magic/magic power are usually synonymous.

This is because Ultear explains when she is talking about Second Origin; where a vessel has a limit of how much magic it can contain before being exhausted. The more magic a vessel can use, the stronger it is. Therefore Zeref having infinite magic (power/pool) = he has infinite attack potency.



This would also support Natsu scaling this high with SDFF as he was capable of exhausting this eternal, perpetual, endless magic with his own magic.


Emotions = Power
The reason I mention emotions on the main arguments is that it's a basic trait of the power system; the higher the emotions run, the stronger the magic is. While Fairy Tail already has an accepted UES, this specific trait of the UES is noted here for a reason; it supports why Zeref exerted more effort on DBI rather than Neo Eclipse.


Alternative End
If, for some reason or another, Zeref wouldn't scale to Low 2-C despite the arguments above, he should still scale to High 3-A - High Universe Level with Fairy Heart's statements. The argument is basically the same but it ignores Neo Eclipse in the equation.

Spoiler: FH Zeref's New Justification

Universe Level+ (Infinitely stronger than his Base Form after absorbing Fairy Heart and the Time Magic from the Space Between Time, the former of which being stated on multiple occasions to have unlimited magic. Stated to possess the potential to match and possibly surpass Pre-SBT Dragon Form Acnologia, which should make him stronger than Pre-SBT Human Form Acnologia and also comparable in power to Pre-SBT Dragon Form Acnologia. Much stronger than X792 Fire Dragon King Mode Igneel's Power Natsu and X792 Fire Dragon King Mode Dragon Force Natsu) and with Neo Eclipse (By merging the powers of Fairy Heart and the Space Between Time to generate Neo Eclipse, Zeref was going to erase the current timeline and replace it with his own to relive his life), higher with Dark Blast Inferno (Exerted far more effort into the attack compared to when he used Neo Eclipse)

Spoiler: FH Zeref's New Justification (Alternate)

High Universe Level (Infinitely stronger than his Base Form after absorbing Fairy Heart and the Time Magic from the Space Between Time, the former of which being stated on multiple occasions to have unlimited magic. Stated to possess the potential to match and possibly surpass Pre-SBT Dragon Form Acnologia, which should make him stronger than Pre-SBT Human Form Acnologia and also comparable in power to Pre-SBT Dragon Form Acnologia. Much stronger than X792 Fire Dragon King Mode Igneel's Power Natsu and X792 Fire Dragon King Mode Dragon Force Natsu), Universe Level+ with Neo Eclipse (By merging the powers of Fairy Heart and the Space Between Time to generate Neo Eclipse, Zeref was going to erase the current timeline and replace it with his own to relive his life)

Spoiler: Who Scales?

Aside from Zeref's, all justifications in each listed character's profiles are accurate, the only thing that's changing here is which key would get the scaling.

• Zeref Dragneel (Fairy Heart Form) (duh, he's the linchpin of this argument)
• Natsu Dragneel (X792) (Savage Dragon Fire Form and Seven Fire Dragon Mode. Possibly also with Igneel's Power via downscaling from Igneel (and thus Pre-SBT Acnologia))
• Natsu Dragneel (X793) (Only the forms that scale to the Dragon Gods' Dragon Forms, this would be Dragon Force, Ignia's Power and Limit Break)
• Acnologia (Dragon Form for Pre-SBT due to him being accepted as being comparable to FH Zeref,both forms for his post-SBT form via him being > FH Zeref outright)
• Igneel (Scales to Acnologia)
• Mavis Vermillion (Fairy Heart only, her argument is the same as Zeref's)
• The Five Dragon Gods (Dragon Form only, they scale to Acnologia)*

* In Mercphobia's case, it would be his Full Power and his Half Power form, not his Weakened form

TLDR: Dark Blast Inferno should be > Neo Eclipse in AP and DBI is empowered by Fairy Heart and it's infinite magic itself. Everyone who scales to FH Zeref scales to Low 2-C or High 3-A as a result.

Staff Votes
Agree: Reiner04, KingTempest, LephyrTheRevanchist, DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral: Random-Helper323

Non-Staff Votes
Agree: Saqphire, Henshinintervention, Remus1998, DemonGodMitchAubin, Zackra1799, Zeinx1, PhoenixFirestorm, Chardee.wl, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH, Excellence616, Lynieryz, TheForgottenKing, Hypercyber37, Nerd1435 (Agrees with SBT Acno, X792 Natsu and Fairy Sphere scaling to it, neutral on the rest)
Disagree:
Neutral: Ghostimuscrime

 

[HenshinIntervention]

This is fine. I agree with the Low 2-C end

 

[Remus1998]

Well here it is

 

[Remus1998]

I agree by the way

 

[Damage3245]

It seems a little contradictory to me.

Zeref possesses infinite AP because he has a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power; but Natsu, who very much does not possess a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power is able to surpass him in AP?

If Magic Power is tied directly to AP, then Natsu should also be superior to Fairy Heart by himself, but they make it clear repeatedly that Fairy Heart it superior to anything else. A finite Magic Power + emotions is stronger than an infinite magic power? So the powers of Natsu's emotions are infinite?

Has anyone else described Igneel, Acnologia, or the Five Dragon Gods as having infinite Magic Power?

I don't think I agree with the main argument that "It looks like Zeref was putting more effort into his attack than he was into Neo Eclipse". Neo Eclipse hadn't been activated yet; he had to go through the doors themselves for it to take effect.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So the powers of Natsu's emotions are infinite?

Yes 100%, Power of Frienship is unironically the strongest thing in the verse

I don't think I agree with the main argument that "It looks like Zeref was putting more effort into his attack than he was into Neo Eclipse". Neo Eclipse hadn't been activated yet; he had to go through the doors themselves for it to take effect.

Zeref definitely put all of his power into the attack considering when Natsu destroyed and overpowered it, his Fairy Heart Form deactivated

 

[KingTempest]

It seems a little contradictory to me.

Zeref possesses infinite AP because he has a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power; but Natsu, who very much does not possess a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power is able to surpass him in AP?

If Magic Power is tied directly to AP, then Natsu should also be superior to Fairy Heart by himself, but they make it clear repeatedly that Fairy Heart it superior to anything else. A finite Magic Power + emotions is stronger than an infinite magic power? So the powers of Natsu's emotions are infinite?

Has anyone else described Igneel, Acnologia, or the Five Dragon Gods as having infinite Magic Power?

I don't think I agree with the main argument that "It looks like Zeref was putting more effort into his attack than he was into Neo Eclipse". Neo Eclipse hadn't been activated yet; he had to go through the doors themselves for it to take effect.

To be honest

I think it’s less of him having infinite AP through infinite magic and him showing infinite AP through finite magic through neo eclipse

 

[WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH]

Question, wouldn't Neo Eclipse be only really big time manipulation rather than an attack like Dark Blast Inferno?

 

[Zackra1799]

It seems a little contradictory to me.

Zeref possesses infinite AP because he has a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power; but Natsu, who very much does not possess a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power is able to surpass him in AP?

If Magic Power is tied directly to AP, then Natsu should also be superior to Fairy Heart by himself, but they make it clear repeatedly that Fairy Heart it superior to anything else. A finite Magic Power + emotions is stronger than an infinite magic power? So the powers of Natsu's emotions are infinite?

Has anyone else described Igneel, Acnologia, or the Five Dragon Gods as having infinite Magic Power?

I don't think I agree with the main argument that "It looks like Zeref was putting more effort into his attack than he was into Neo Eclipse". Neo Eclipse hadn't been activated yet; he had to go through the doors themselves for it to take effect.

Magic in Fairy Tail can reach into "infinities" from finite sources of magic power. Mavis obviously didn't possess infinite magic power before she obtained Fairy Heart. Hades attempted to revive Mavis with various resuscitation spells, and due to her undying nature, inadvertently created the Fairy Heart. While this is the main example everyone points to for this, this isn't the only example of finite magic combining to make an infinite amount.

Back in the Edolas arc, when the characters were still incredibly weak, compared to what they are now, Faust the king of Edolas used the Anima to suck up the entire town of Magnolia and converted them into a Lacrima Crystal, this crystal was stated to be able to power the Kingom of Edolas's magic consumption rate for 10 years, an impressive feat, but clearly a finite amount of magic. The Exceed are the only ones in the world of Edolas capable of innately using magic, as normally wizards from Earthland are unable to do so without external help via the X balls.

However, when comparing the Magic power just Natsu, Wendy, and Lucy have in comparison to the Exceed, Byro states that the magic they possess in their bodies surpasses the magic the Exceed possess. Why is this important, well its used to establish that the combined Magic stored inside the Lacrima or the Magic the Exceeds possess are both Finite sources of magic.

Fausts entire goal throughout the arc is to obtain endless, eternal magic power for the world of Edolas. To do this his plan is to crash the Lacrima into the island of Exceeds Extalia to fuse their magic, and thus create endless Eternal magic for the world of Edolas.

So basically finite magic can become infinite in Fairy Tail, Natsu even burned though Zeref's "inexhaustible" magic at the end of their fight as he was unable to both regenerate from his curse or rewind time with the Fairy Heart and is forcibly knocked out of his fairy heart form. It's entirely believable that natsu was able to reach said infinite tiers of magic with emotion alone considering that the love he has for his guild and his drive to protect everyone he cares for. All magic stems from the "One Magic" which we know to simply be love.

 

[Remus1998]

I don't know if this will help, but we know that if a wizard takes in too much magic, they won't able to use Magic as their body will fool itself into believing they have none at all

 

[Saqphire]

Zeref possesses infinite AP because he has a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power; but Natsu, who very much does not possess a limitless, infinite source of Magic Power is able to surpass him in AP?

Unironically, yes. Emotional amps are actually insane in this verse where someone can jump several tiers up in strength from pure emotional outburst alone as we clearly see in 100 Years Quest, and this would clearly be a showcase of an infinite jump here.

If Magic Power is tied directly to AP, then Natsu should also be superior to Fairy Heart by himself, but they make it clear repeatedly that Fairy Heart it superior to anything else. A finite Magic Power + emotions is stronger than an infinite magic power? So the powers of Natsu's emotions are infinite?

Zeref states that Fairy Heart would be the apex of all magic before Natsu gained SDFF (and also before Acnologia gained SBT), and Natsu himself said that the power of the guild is the greatest of all after he gained his form. Zeref's statement would simply encompass magic that appeared before FH which was, again, Neo Eclipse. So him putting more effort into DBI just supports that

Also yes, Natsu's emotions for the guild are infinite, that's pretty much the narrative intent here.

Has anyone else described Igneel, Acnologia, or the Five Dragon Gods as having infinite Magic Power?

Earthland itself contains infinite, eternal magic, but Zackra did respond to this point very well here with how magic and infinity is treated.

I don't think I agree with the main argument that "It looks like Zeref was putting more effort into his attack than he was into Neo Eclipse". Neo Eclipse hadn't been activated yet; he had to go through the doors themselves for it to take effect.

Neo Eclipse was already activated in these panels though. He says "I need to connect the doors to the SBT" first and then activates it after doing so.

Furthermore, Neo Eclipse was shut down after Zeref lost Fairy Heart because Natsu was capable of leaving the guild after the fight, something which wasn't possible due to, well, the doors being changed. This means Zeref had to keep it up with the form as well here.

I don't know if this will help, but we know that if a wizard takes in too much magic, they won't able to use Magic as their body will fool itself into believing they have none at all

It does help, cuz you can argue levels to infinity here. Elentear has more magic than Earthland's infinite vast of magic so

Question, wouldn't Neo Eclipse be only really big time manipulation rather than an attack like Dark Blast Inferno?

Not really, because it was stated multiple times it was gonna erase the world (universe). Also the UES of Fairy Tail would make it applicable regardless

To be honest

I think it’s less of him having infinite AP through infinite magic and him showing infinite AP through finite magic through neo eclipse

Yeah, either interpretation works here tbh

 

[Zeinx1]

I completely agree with Zeref Low 2-C stats.

I'd like to add something too: as you know, magic power is also life energy (which is why infinite stamina is taken from Fairy Heart), and this also affects stats (ap/dura/sta). This also serves as an additional support.

 

[Saqphire]

I completely agree with Zeref Low 2-C stats.

I'd like to add something too: as you know, magic power is also life energy (which is why infinite stamina is taken from Fairy Heart), and this also affects stats (ap/dura/sta). This also serves as an additional support.

Yeah, this helps. Thanks

 

[PhoenixFirestorm]

I’m just glad this is being done. At first I didn’t believe universe level power in Fairy Tail until I read deeper into context.
Btw, I also agree with this.

 

[Chardee.wl]

I agree considering that magical power can directly or indirectly affect increases in stamina and strength

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Zeref’s stats pretty blatantly scale to Neo Eclipse considering that’s how magical power works in FT, and well… If Neo Eclipse is considered Low 2-C, it would scale to Zeref’s stats…

So either Zeref is Low 2-C or Neo Eclipse isn’t Low 2-C, it’s a bit arbitrary to consider them separate stats

Fairy Heart is also said to be limitless and the pinnacle of everything and makes Zeref surpass space-time… It has all the flavor text

 

[Saqphire]

Zeref’s stats pretty blatantly scale to Neo Eclipse considering that’s how magical power works in FT, and well… If Neo Eclipse is considered Low 2-C, it would scale to Zeref’s stats…

So either Zeref is Low 2-C or Neo Eclipse isn’t Low 2-C, it’s a bit arbitrary to consider them separate stats

Fairy Heart is also said to be limitless and the pinnacle of everything and makes Zeref surpass space-time… It has all the flavor text

Yeah exactly, it was always weird that Zeref wouldn't scale to it or wtv.

Are you capable of tagging some staff btw?

 

[Reiner04]

This seems to work ig.

 

[Saqphire]

This seems to work ig.

Thank you very much for your vote

 

[WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH]

Neo Eclipse was already activated in these panels though. He says "I need to connect the doors to the SBT" first and then activates it after doing so.

Furthermore, Neo Eclipse was shut down after Zeref lost Fairy Heart because Natsu was capable of leaving the guild after the fight, something which wasn't possible due to, well, the doors being changed. This means Zeref had to keep it up with the form as well here.

It's also important to note that Zeref closed the SBT when he found it, and says himself that he'd only open it once he starts Neo Eclipse. Which it did, meaning Neo Eclipse was definitely already happening.

Just wanted to add that.

 

[Saqphire]

It's also important to note that Zeref closed the SBT when he found it, and says himself that he'd only open it once he starts Neo Eclipse. Which it did, meaning Neo Eclipse was definitely already happening.

Just wanted to add that.

Excellent point, thanks for the addition

 

[Remus1998]

I find it hilarious how everyone has come in and added a tidbit supporting FHZ being Low 2-C

 

[Excellence616]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Has anyone else described Igneel, Acnologia, or the Five Dragon Gods as having infinite Magic Power?

Pretty sure it doesn't matter since they are just scaling. A character doesn't need an infinite/limitless statement to scale to High 3-A or above; otherwise, most of the scaling on this wiki would be invalid.

 

[Damage3245]

Pretty sure it doesn't matter since they are just scaling. A character doesn't need an infinite/limitless statement to scale to High 3-A or above; otherwise, most of the scaling on this wiki would be invalid.

It'd help a lot with the consistency of it at least. It is a big jump for these 5-A characters to be going to Low 2-C.

 

[PhoenixFirestorm]

It'd help a lot with the consistency of it at least. It is a big jump for these 5-A characters to be going to Low 2-C.

Honestly before this, I only would give the Low 2-C scale to only Fairy Heart Zeref, Flames of Emotion Natsu and SBT Acnologia. But I’ll see how this goes. I am still agreeing to this.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Firing Etherion blasts infinitely is infinite stamina, not AP.

The fact he cast the Neo Eclipse with his magic seems relevant, but if he can pour an endless stamina supply into it, this might not apply to AP. He also cast it very quickly though, so I'll be neutral for now.

 

[Saqphire]

Firing Etherion blasts infinitely is infinite stamina, not AP.

Both Mavis and Zeref frame it as both. She explains that Fairy Heart had magic that would never run dry (which explains the stamina part) and the fact that Etherion was a powerful weapon that could destroy a country, and simply says it has enough magic to do so an infinite amount of times; hence the argument from my part that Fairy Heart is simply just the AP of Etherion multiplied by infinity by that logic. Zeref also straight up says it has infinite magic power here and Magic in Fairy Tail is also AP, not just stamina due to it being life force based.

It would also be pretty redundant for her to explain how FH has infinite stamina twice over in the same page and it would contradictory to their statements to assert a limit on the AP, when the whole point of the form is for it to have no limits in the first place.

The fact he cast the Neo Eclipse with his magic seems relevant, but if he can pour an endless stamina supply into it, this might not apply to AP.

Due to how magic works, it ain't just stamina being poured in; it's why I added sections talking about Magic/Magic Power overall like Second Origin and emotions as both are relevant to the arg. Also, KingTempest, Mitch and Zackra did give an interpretation regarding infinite vs finite magic yet still having infinite AP

He also cast it very quickly though, so I'll be neutral for now.

Sure sure, I've added you to the list.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Both Mavis and Zeref frame it as both. She explains that Fairy Heart had magic that would never run dry (which explains the stamina part) and the fact that Etherion was a powerful weapon that could destroy a country, and simply says it has enough magic to do so an infinite amount of times; hence the argument from my part that Fairy Heart is simply just the AP of Etherion multiplied by infinity by that logic. Zeref also straight up says it has infinite magic power here and Magic in Fairy Tail is also AP, not just stamina due to it being life force based.

It would also be pretty redundant for her to explain how FH has infinite stamina twice over in the same page and it would contradictory to their statements to assert a limit on the AP, when the whole point of the form is for it to have no limits in the first place.

Android Saga Android 17 and 18 can fire planet busting blasts indefinitely. We don't scale them to universal for being able to blast indefinitely.

 

[Saqphire]

Android Saga Android 17 and 18 can fire planet busting blasts indefinitely. We don't scale them to universal for being able to blast indefinitely.

That's just whataboutism man. C17/18's thing was specifically for their stamina and not their AP, like that's explicit here. However, Mavis and Zeref are saying the complete opposite, it's not just stamina but also AP. Hencewhy it's also described multiple times that magic / magic power is AP here

Or are you saying all forms of magic is "just stamina" ? Cuz that's just wrong here

 

[Damage3245]

That's just whataboutism man. C17/18's thing was specifically for their stamina and not their AP, like that's explicit here. However, Mavis and Zeref are saying the complete opposite, it's not just stamina but also AP. Hencewhy it's also described multiple times that magic / magic power is AP here

Or are you saying all forms of magic is "just stamina" ? Cuz that's just wrong here

If it was always explicitly AP, then why were Zeref and Natsu not upgraded to Low 2-C back when the feat happened?

 

[Saqphire]

If it was always explicitly AP, then why were Zeref and Natsu not upgraded to Low 2-C back when the feat happened?

Trust, the community have tried when it did happen. However, the Low 2-C argument is just DBI and Fairy Heart over Neo Eclipse, an accepted Tier 2 feat for ages now, the infinite magic/AP part is just supporting why it should scale so high.

Also, the question doesn't seem that strong, that's kinda like asking "Why wasn't Goku 2-C when the BoG feat happened" when he was 3-A not even five years ago. Or "why wasn't Bleach 3-C when the Gremmy feat happened" etc. etc. That's the past with their argument, we are talking about the present with the current arguments

 

[Random-Helper323]

That's just whataboutism man.

It is not whataboutism. So many people misuse that term. Whataboutism refers to the act of saying something else was done that was wrong therefore doing more wrong is okay.

You are specifically suggesting to use the ability to fire Etherion blasts indefinitely as proof of infinite power when that wouldn't apply literally anywhere else.

Or are you saying all forms of magic is "just stamina" ? Cuz that's just wrong here

I responded to the ability to fire repeated Etherion blasts indefinitely. I said to list me as neutral due to other things. This is just me saying the endless Etherion blasts isn't reliable for AP scaling.

 

[Saqphire]

It is not whataboutism. So many people misuse that term. Whataboutism refers to the act of saying something else was done that was wrong therefore doing more wrong is okay.

You are specifically suggesting to use the ability to fire Etherion blasts indefinitely as proof of infinite power when that wouldn't apply literally anywhere else.

The Etherion statement is in conjunction with the other statements I mentioned such as FH being limitless cuz it doesn't hold magic quantity (and thus the interp that its just an infinite supply would be wrong, unlike in your Dragon Ball example) as well as Zeref saying the power is infinite. All of the statements are connected to support why Fairy Heart should ultimately scale above Neo Eclipse regardless, to which the main arg is just that he was exerting more effort on DBI over Neo Eclipse.

I responded to the ability to fire repeated Etherion blasts indefinitely. I said to list me as neutral due to other things. This is just me saying the endless Etherion blasts isn't reliable for AP scaling.

Even if we dismiss the etherion x infinity argument, the rest of the statements would still support the H3A end, really. But yeah, you're in the neutral section

 

[Random-Helper323]

In conjunction with the other statements I mentioned such as FH being limitless cuz it doesn't hold magic quantity (and thus the interp that its just an infinite supply would be wrong, unlike in your Dragon Ball example) as well as Zeref saying the power is infinite. All of the statements are connected to support why Fairy Heart should ultimately scale above Neo Eclipse regardless, to which the main arg is just that he was exerting more effort on DBI over Neo Eclipse.

The problem is the Fairy Heart is Mavis herself and her big thing is immortality (aka infinite life or stamina), not massive power.

the rest of the statements would still support the H3A end, really. But yeah, you're in the neutral section

As I said, Zeref casting such a spell quickly is why I can see it possibly scaling.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

If it was always explicitly AP, then why were Zeref and Natsu not upgraded to Low 2-C back when the feat happened?

This deadass so odd

WHY DOES THIS MATTER ???

we as a wiki are constantly reassessing material for scaling, we check and evaluate if there are errors in the currently accepted metas or upgrade avenues not previously explored, if putting together different pieces of info helps recontextualize a new meta and unveils newer avenues we are to look at the strength of the arguments and validity of evidence not question "uhm why not do it then"

re-evaluation of old material is what content REVISION threads are for, it's in the god damn name​

it doesn't defeat the argument or make it look any weaker or stronger, it's just a weak cop out to avoid producing a valid debunk for non favoured proposals

you're doing nothing outside pointless derailment

(am neutral with this proposal so don't see this as me forcing anyone to accept this, just wanted to speak on this isolated comment)

 

[Damage3245]

@Ghostimuscrime I wasn't asking that question to deny the thread... I was looking to get more context on it since understanding of past arguments would help this.

Sorry if I should've taken that to DM's instead of asking the question here, but you're just freaking out over nothing as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Reiner04]

Chill, he merely asked why its the way it is and the reasoning behind it, it didn't seemed like he was trying to debunk or anything of sort with that query.

 

[Saqphire]

The problem is the Fairy Heart is Mavis herself and her big thing is immortality (aka infinite life or stamina), not massive power.

Mavis has the same immortality as Zeref but not because of Fairy Heart. They're immortal because they were both cursed by Ankhseram, and they had that curse since before they even had FH in the first place which was before the series even began. In fact, as Zackra explained above, the form started to exist because of her immortality and Hades' genius, therefore the immortality she possesses has no bearing to the power of the form itself (other than creating the form). In fact, infinite life creating power to an infinite extent would support Fairy Heart's narrative here.

Fairy Heart's big showcases of it's great power is almost exclusively from Zeref but also Mavis being capable of tanking Cana's Fairy Glitter, one of the three great magics in the verse. And no, Mavis being able to survive it isn't solely because of the curse, we see her body take NO damage from it either and both users of the curse can be damaged.

As I said, Zeref casting such a spell quickly is why I can see it possibly scaling.

That's fine.

 

[BlackeJan]

So like, why do we treat it as something Low 2-C when Zeref can just be implying that he’s going back in time to change something. It’s been known that if u change a certain event in the past, then the whole future and timeline itself would change

 

[Saqphire]

So like, why do we treat it as something Low 2-C when Zeref can just be implying that he’s going back in time to change something. It’s been known that if u change a certain event in the past, then the whole future and timeline itself would change

This was already discussed and rejected in the downgrade thread I linked in the OP, but Zeref explicitly states he isn't going back in time.

This is merely about scaling people above Neo Eclipse + infinite magic shenanigans