Zeref High 3-A

[Riri8]

I will explain why I disagree with Zeref being Low 2-C. First of all, in this old CRT, Zeref is proposed as Low 2-C via Neo Eclipse.

Fairy Tail: Neo Eclipse, Two Years Later

Hi. Been a while since this subject was covered. In fact, it's been over 2 years since then. And with all this time that's gone by, I wanted to revisit this, as I believe I've become much better when it comes to debating this stuff. So, Neo Eclipse. It's this nifty thing Zeref brings up in...

vsbattles.com

Many people agreed for absurd reasons or had other interpretations, which I completely understand. However, for my part, I will try to clarify this as much as possible, and I will demonstrate that there is no other valid interpretation than this one, and that Zeref’s Low 2-C rating does not make sense.


-----
First of all
Look at what the panel presents and what Zeref himself says.
Page 1
“Zer… ef…”
GWAM
“Ungh!”
“Neo Eclipse is a type of magic that allows a person to relive their life.”
“I’m going to return to my original self, 400 years ago.”
GWOOOH
“Mavis…”
“When I had a family…
When I had a beloved baby brother…”
“I will never become immortal.
I will die just like anyone else.”
“It’s too bad that we’ll never meet.”

He literally says that he is going to return 400 years into the past to correct what will happen.
Granted, I agree with the idea of a reset if we accept that, but here he literally explains that he will only reset the entirety of the events that occurred over the last 400 years and that he will correct his mistakes from when he was not immortal.
As a result, he is literally admitting a contradiction with a Low 2-C rating, and thus the only possible interpretation is that he does not affect all the (instances) that make up the space-time continuum, but rather specific instances that already occurred at given moments in (time). This implies that he only affected three-dimensional space.
Additionally, I would like to remind that he is completely explicit regarding his statement. I also want to clarify that the universe page clearly explains that four-dimensional space encompasses the entirety of three-dimensional space.
This further reinforces the idea that Zeref does not deserve a Low 2-C rating based on this.

Firstly, it is significant to understand that a universe, including space-time continuums and timelines, encompasses all three-dimensional space that can be accessed through regular movement within the universe. This means that any location that can be theoretically reached through conventional means of travel, such as spaceflight, would be considered part of the same universe and timeline, regardless of how the fiction portrays it. Movement between universes should only be feasible through extraordinary modes of transportation, such as portals, higher-dimensional movement, or teleportation. By default, it is assumed that universes have separate three-dimensional spaces, but if a piece of fiction demonstrates otherwise, destruction of several connected timelines would be rated as Low 2-C (Universe level+).

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

-----
I’m going to give a short monologue to explain why the best rating we can give to Zeref is High 3-A, due to the fact that he did not affect all the instances that make up the temporal axis, and as we’ll see, why High 3-A is more appropriate for Zeref.
In the hierarchy, the prerequisites to be High 3-A are to manifest energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass in a 3-D space. I will provide a panel to support this.
Before finishing, I’m not entirely convinced that High 3-A is perfect, but for now, this tier seems best for Zeref, and all characters who scale on him should also be lowered to this level. The rest is up to you.
Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass or affecting an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being "infinitely" stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Saqphire]

Ugh I thought this was gonna be based and scale him to H3A simply because of Fairy Heart having infinite power output.

I disagree with the thread simply because Zeref says he isn't going to the past or future. The H3A interpretation literally implies he's going to the past and destroying 400 years worth of time while doing so. Furthermore, he also says he is creating a new world. Going back to the past is contradictory to that sentiment alone as that's not a new world.

 

[Riri8]

Ugh I thought this was gonna be based and scale him to H3A simply because of Fairy Heart having infinite power output.

I disagree with the thread simply because Zeref says he isn't going to the past or future. The H3A interpretation literally implies he's going to the past and destroying 400 years worth of time while doing so. Furthermore, he also says he is creating a new world. Going back to the past is contradictory to that sentiment alone as that's not a new world.

Regarding the reset, I said that if we accept it, then we inevitably return to what I explained: he does not affect all the instances that exist in four-dimensional space, and this does not create a new world. Can you elaborate on this, because at no point did he say that he was going to recreate a new universe, and a world is not the same as a universe

 

[Saqphire]

Regarding the reset, I said that if we accept it, then we inevitably return to what I explained: he does not affect all the instances that exist in four-dimensional space, and this does not create a new world.

Yeah, I'm saying your interpretation directly goes against what Zeref is literally saying, as the implication from that interpretation means he is going to the past. Something he is not doing. If Zeref isn't going to the past AND he is creating a new world, then he would be destroying the old one in its entirety first.

Can you elaborate on this, because at no point did he say that he was going to recreate a new universe, and a world is not the same as a universe

"World" in Japanese is "Sekai" which means world (planet), society (vague) or Universe. Unless you're saying planets or societies have a temporal dimension which is to be reset, he means Universe here.

Furthermore, "world" has been used to contextually mean Universe in the series before (see Ultear shrinking infinite parallel universes, Ultear turning back time for the entire world for one second or DiMaria stopping time all over the world) so "world" being a Universe in Fairy Tail is not a foreign concept at all.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Disagree with this thread.
This
We literally have this
Let's take a look at Uni+?

Characters or objects whose power is uncountably infinitely greater than the prior tiers. That is to say, they can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that exceed lesser objects by an uncountably infinite margin. An example of this is 4-dimensional spacetime continuums of universal size, but this can be generalized to any 4-dimensional structure of a similar scope.

And as we know, Zeref had the magic capable of effecting the 4D structure... So yea.
Neo eclipse was literally said to wipe out the current timeline which houses the 4D structure + 400 years of life that Zeref was planning to nuke.
And also.. we have many instances in fairy tail of universal stuff
What you're saying goes against that too.
What zeref was doing contradicts 3A therefore it should be higher.
So yea, hard disagree.

 

[Saqphire]

An alternate interpretation can be that Zeref is destroying the Universe, creating a new one and waiting it out until he is at the point in time where he can go and kill Acnologia before he became a dragon which was 400 years before he used Neo Eclipse. It makes sense since the guy is literally immortal and it wouldn't go against his literal words here

 

[Riri8]

Oui, je dis que ton interprétation contredit directement les propos de Zeref, car elle sous-entend qu'il voyage dans le passé. Ou, il ne le fait pas. Si Zeref ne voyage pas dans le passé ET qu'il crée un nouveau monde, alors il détruirait d'abord l'ancien entièrement.

En japonais, « monde » se dit « Sekai », qui peut désigner le monde (planète), la société (de façon vague) ou l'univers. À moins qu'il ne s'agisse d'une dimension temporelle liée à la réinitialisation des planètes ou des sociétés, il fait ici référence à l'univers.

De plus, le terme « monde » a déjà été utilisé dans la série pour désigner l'univers (voir Ultear rétrécissant des univers parallèles infinis, Ultear remontant le temps pour le monde entier pendant une seconde ou DiMaria arrêtant le temps partout dans le monde), donc l'idée que « monde » peut désigner un univers dans Fairy Tail n'est pas du tout étranger.

Oui, je dis que ton interprétation contredit directement les propos de Zeref, car elle sous-entend qu'il voyage dans le passé. Ou, il ne le fait pas. Si Zeref ne voyage pas dans le passé ET qu'il crée un nouveau monde, alors il détruirait d'abord l'ancien entièrement.

En japonais, « monde » se dit « Sekai », qui peut désigner le monde (planète), la société (de façon vague) ou l'univers. À moins qu'il ne s'agisse d'une dimension temporelle liée à la réinitialisation des planètes ou des sociétés, il fait ici référence à l'univers.

De plus, le terme « monde » a déjà été utilisé dans la série pour désigner l'univers (voir Ultear rétrécissant des univers parallèles infinis, Ultear remontant le temps pour le monde entier pendant une seconde ou DiMaria arrêtant le temps partout dans le monde), donc l'idée que « monde » puisse désigner un univers dans Fairy Tail n'est pas du tout étranger. Zeref dit littéralement qu'il va réinitialiser toutes les instances.

Oui, je dis que ton interprétation contredit directement les propos de Zeref, car elle sous-entend qu'il voyage dans le passé. Or, il ne le fait pas. Si Zeref ne voyage pas dans le passé ET qu'il crée un nouveau monde, alors il détruirait d'abord l'ancien entièrement.

En japonais, « monde » se dit « Sekai », qui peut désigner le monde (planète), la société (de façon vague) ou l'univers. À moins qu'il ne s'agisse d'une dimension temporelle liée à la réinitialisation des planètes ou des sociétés, il fait ici référence à l'univers.

De plus, le terme « monde » a déjà été utilisé dans la série pour désigner l'univers (voir Ultear rétrécissant des univers parallèles infinis, Ultear remontant le temps pour le monde entier pendant une seconde ou DiMaria arrêtant le temps partout dans le monde), donc l'idée que « monde » puisse désigner un univers dans Fairy Tail n'est pas du tout étrangère.

.I literally said that if we accept the reset, I’m not against it, but I clearly explained that Zeref says he is going to reset the instances of the last 400 years.
That was the period when he had not yet become immortal, when Natsu was still human, and when Acnologia had not yet become a dragon or a Dragon Slayer.
You can clearly see that he did not affect all the instances that make up the events occurring in time, and that he only affected three-dimensional space.
I clearly explained this in my CRT, and all of this is also found on the universe page. I cannot lie about it because it is a concrete fact—please understand that.
Not all instances are affected.
Instances are events that occur in time (past, present, future).
He only affected three-dimensional space, which is itself encompassed by four-dimensional space (4d) And also, my main argument is not about travel.

 

[Riri8]

Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce fil de discussion.
Ce
Nous avons littéralement ceci
Jetons un coup d'œil à Uni+ ?


Et comme nous le savons, Zeref possédait une magie capable d'affecter la structure 4D... Donc oui.
On disait littéralement que Neo Eclipse allait anéantir la chronologie actuelle qui abrite la structure 4D et 400 ans de vie que Zeref prévoyait de détruire.
Et aussi... nous avons de nombreux exemples de choses universelles dans Fairy Tail.
Ce que vous dites va également à l'encontre de cela.
Ce que faisait Zeref contredit l'article 3A, donc sa valeur devrait être plus élevée.
Donc oui, je suis totalement en désaccord.

I was never against him affecting the structure, but here he simply does not affect all the instances.
If you read the “Universe” page carefully, you know very well that, to qualify as Uni+, one must affect the entirety of the instances (events) that make up the space-time continuum. And since each event occurs in time, this necessarily means affecting the past, present, and future.
This is not a contradiction on my part, because Zeref literally states that he is going to reset the instances of the last 400 years.
So according to you, we should accept this simply because he affected a 4D structure, even though — as a reminder — there is also a distinction in VSBW between a space-time continuum and space-time. Both are 4D, but for Uni+, one must affect a full space-time continuum and all the instances that occur within time.
Past, present, and future.
We can also clearly see that he is quite explicit in his statement And also cases where, moi je demande du high 3-A vu que la structure et Infini

 

[Riri8]

An alternate interpretation can be that Zeref is destroying the Universe, creating a new one and waiting it out until he is at the point in time where he can go and kill Acnologia before he became a dragon which was 400 years before he used Neo Eclipse. It makes sense since the guy is literally immortal and it wouldn't go against his literal words here

I wouldn't have been against it, yes, but his statement seems a little too clear to allow for other interpretations, but I respect your point of view.

 

[SweetDao]

Furthermore, he also says he is creating a new world

Where is it stated? I don't see it in the OP scans (?)

Edit : Nevermind, I saw it, still pretty weird imo.

 

[Robo432343]

Zeref said space and time is under his control via fairy heart and he used that power to generate Neo Eclipse
imo this should be included in his profile

 

[Riri8]

Where is it stated? I don't see it in the OP scans (?)

Edit : Nevermind, I saw it, still pretty weird imo.

To put it simply, when he refers to a “new world,” he is only referring to the fact that after he resets the events of the last 400 years, he will not allow the actions of his current life to happen.
That is why he says things like “before I became immortal,” “when Natsu was still human,” and “before Acnologia became so powerful.” He intends to kill Acnologia before he reaches that level of power.
This is what he means by a “new world.”
He is not creating or destroying a new universe. He is simply repairing and correcting the actions and events that have already occurred.

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Hard disagree

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Disagree fra

 

[Voidnether]

Wouldn't the entire 400 years thing make the snapshots finite hence High 3-A unironically instead of Low 2-C? Like in an infinite snapshot like L2-C, you can't even have the time itself to be finite or that's just High 3-A

 

[Robo432343]

disagree for now

 

[Saqphire]

Wouldn't the entire 400 years thing make the snapshots finite hence High 3-A unironically instead of Low 2-C? Like in an infinite snapshot like L2-C, you can't even have the time itself to be finite or that's just High 3-A

That's assuming the Universe itself only composes of 400 years of temporal snapshots which makes no sense because the timeline started way earlier than that + the Universe is infinite in size. Furthermore, that also assumes Zeref "creating a new world" means he is creating a world where he instantly spawns at the point in time 400 years ago which was never elaborated on; hence the interpretation I laid out above.

Zeref said space and time is under his control via fairy heart and he used that power to generate Neo Eclipse
imo this should be included in his profile

This should make him fully scale iangl cuz of the "significantly affecting" requirement

.I literally said that if we accept the reset, I’m not against it, but I clearly explained that Zeref says he is going to reset the instances of the last 400 years.
That was the period when he had not yet become immortal, when Natsu was still human, and when Acnologia had not yet become a dragon or a Dragon Slayer.
You can clearly see that he did not affect all the instances that make up the events occurring in time, and that he only affected three-dimensional space.
I clearly explained this in my CRT, and all of this is also found on the universe page. I cannot lie about it because it is a concrete fact—please understand that.
Not all instances are affected.
Instances are events that occur in time (past, present, future).
He only affected three-dimensional space, which is itself encompassed by four-dimensional space (4d) And also, my main argument is not about travel.

Déjà là, ta traduction est mauvaise de ouf. J'ai dit "sauf s'il y a une dimension temporelle qui gouverne une planete ou une societé, Zeref parle de l'univers là."

Yeah but your argumentation plus your OP glosses over what I just said, I'm not finna repeat myself on that part as to how it's pretty much only possible for the destruction to affect an infinite snapshots worth of time here.

 

[Voidnether]

That's assuming the Universe itself only composes of 400 years of temporal snapshots which makes no sense because the timeline started way earlier than that + the Universe is infinite in size. Furthermore, that also assumes Zeref "creating a new world" means he is creating a world where he instantly spawns at the point in time 400 years ago which was never elaborated on; hence the interpretation I laid out above.

This should make him fully scale iangl cuz of the "significantly affecting" requirement

Déjà là, ta traduction est mauvaise de ouf. J'ai dit "sauf s'il y a une dimension temporelle qui gouverne une planete ou une societé, Zeref parle de l'univers là."

Yeah but your argumentation plus your OP glosses over what I just said, I'm not finna repeat myself on that part as to how it's pretty much only possible for the destruction to affect an infinite snapshots worth of time here.

The universe being infinite is size is just a supporting evidence for High 3-A more, the timeline you linked there refers to the timeline when the protagonist was born which would be finite either way as it doesn't encompass like the very beginning of the universe

 

[Saqphire]

The universe being infinite is size is just a supporting evidence for High 3-A more, the timeline you linked there refers to the timeline when the protagonist was born which would be finite either way as it doesn't encompass like the very beginning of the universe

I said it's infinite in size because of space-time generally being linked; so the universe being spatially infinite cannot exist without a corresponding temporal dimension that makes space move. If infinite space can have progression of events, said progression of events has to be infinite here too and that progress of events is the timeline.

And the timeline I linked showed events before Zeref became immortal, and before Acnologia became a dragon, both of which are events that Zeref would go to. This means that his statement referring to "400 years ago" does not mean the timeline started 400 years ago, it was earlier than that. Thus it's not a cap as you're positing here.

The wiki only mentioning Anna's birth as the earliest point of it =/= the timeline is finite because Anna's birth was never the beginning of the Universe (that's giga absurd btw). You need to actually supplement that the timeline is finite with further evidence than this.

 

[Voidnether]

I said it's infinite in size because of space-time generally being linked; so the universe being spatially infinite cannot exist without a corresponding temporal dimension that makes space move. If infinite space can have progression of events, said progression of events has to be infinite here too and that progress of events is the timeline.

And the timeline I linked showed events before Zeref became immortal, and before Acnologia became a dragon, both of which are events that Zeref would go to. This means that his statement referring to "400 years ago" does not mean the timeline started 400 years ago, it was earlier than that. Thus it's not a cap as you're positing here.

The wiki only mentioning Anna's birth as the earliest point of it =/= the timeline is finite because Anna's birth was never the beginning of the Universe (that's giga absurd btw). You need to actually supplement that the timeline is finite with further evidence than this.

Yeah uh it was never a standard if the spatial dimension is infinite then the temporal dimension is also infinite by default

 

[Zackra1799]

Yeah Zeref blatantly calls it a time reset, and is going to recreate the world, he also blatantly debunks the notion that its only time reversal.

Disagree fra

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

I was never against him affecting the structure, but here he simply does not affect all the instances.
If you read the “Universe” page carefully, you know very well that, to qualify as Uni+, one must affect the entirety of the instances (events) that make up the space-time continuum. And since each event occurs in time, this necessarily means affecting the past, present, and future.

And his power neo eclipse was going to affect the 4D structure.
You're downplaying too much...
Also: This
World can't mean planet here. There's too much evidence to support universal reset which by means is affecting the 4D structure. And also as we know, resetting the timeline world or wtv would affect both the timeline and that space included which by more means it's "4D" which Zeref was planning on affecting anyways >
Your scan: Scan
Also contradicts 3D and it must be higher..

This is not a contradiction on my part, because Zeref literally states that he is going to reset the instances of the last 400 years.
So according to you, we should accept this simply because he affected a 4D structure, even though —

Uni+: Characters or objects whose power is uncountably infinitely greater than the prior tiers. That is to say, they can *significantly affect create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that exceed lesser objects by an uncountably infinite margin. An example of this is 4-dimensional spacetime continua of universal size, but this can be generalized to any 4-dimensional structure of a similar scope*
And what was Zeref going to do? He was going to reset the timeline. Significantly affected
So that doesn't work here, when again World can't equal planet here and its power was going to reset the timeline which once again houses the 4D structure. So 4D it can't be 3D when the context is very Clear to be higher..

as a reminder — there is also a distinction in VSBW between a space-time continuum and space-time. Both are 4D, but for Uni+, one must affect a full space-time continuum and all the instances that occur within time.
Past, present, and future.

Interesting:
What is this again ?
A time reset which would have affected all 3 instances? That would have affected the space too?
I guess we can't forget about this too !
"Existing world" we know it can't be planet, and we also know neo eclipse has the power to reset the timeline >
Oh yeah, also this
Must this be made clear ?
"Time reset" which I said again will reset the whole 4D structure. You took Zerefs words out of context why would he say "I won't go back to the past present or future?" Simple because he's in the present and context also shows that.
" I'm going back 400 years "
Resetting that time would reset the space included.

We can also clearly see that he is quite explicit in his statement And also cases where, I ask for high 3-A saw that the structure and Infini

Explicit about resetting time? The timeline??
The 4D structure which he was going to reset?
You're not giving reason as to 3D. When evidence suggests 4D so yes.

 

[Riri8]

And his power neo eclipse was going to affect the 4D structure.
You're downplaying too much...
Also: This
World can't mean planet here. There's too much evidence to support universal reset which by means is affecting the 4D structure. And also as we know, resetting the timeline world or wtv would affect both the timeline and that space included which by more means it's "4D" which Zeref was planning on affecting anyways >
Your scan: Scan
Also contradicts 3D and it must be higher..

Uni+: Characters or objects whose power is uncountably infinitely greater than the prior tiers. That is to say, they can significantly affect create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that exceed lesser objects by an uncountably infinite margin. An example of this is 4-dimensional spacetime continua of universal size, but this can be generalized to any 4-dimensional structure of a similar scope
And what was Zeref going to do? He was going to reset the timeline. Significantly affected
So that doesn't work here, when again World can't equal planet here and its power was going to reset the timeline which once again houses the 4D structure. So 4D it can't be 3D when the context is very Clear to be higher..

Interesting:
What is this again ?
A time reset which would have affected all 3 instances? That would have affected the space too?
I guess we can't forget about this too !
"Existing world" we know it can't be planet, and we also know neo eclipse has the power to reset the timeline >
Oh yeah, also this
Must this be made clear ?
"Time reset" which I said again will reset the whole 4D structure. You took Zerefs words out of context why would he say "I won't go back to the past present or future?" Simple because he's in the present and context also shows that.
" I'm going back 400 years "
Resetting that time would reset the space included.

Explicit about resetting time? The timeline??
The 4D structure which he was going to reset?
You're not giving reason as to 3D. When evidence suggests 4D so yes.

The duration of a given space — that is, the past, present, and future — is composed of instances, which are groupings of events that occur successively.
What I am trying to clarify is that I believe my point is being misunderstood. I am saying that Zeref did not affect all the instances encompassed within the entirety of four-dimensional space, but only affected three-dimensional space (3D) of infinite size. You can verify this directly by looking at the High 3-A hierarchy, which I can also provide if needed.
Furthermore, based on Zeref’s own statements, it is clear that he is resetting specific instances — namely, the instances that make up the present and the past at precise moments, particularly within the 400-year range he explicitly mentions. This is why he says he will reset everything to a point where he was not yet immortal, where Natsu was not yet END, and similar statements.
I am indeed referring to the universe, and I no longer need to argue this point further, as I have already explained my position on it in detail.
“Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3D space at least comparable in size to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion that covers the entire space, or that create or significantly affect a 3D universe or pocket dimension of comparable size, without implying the destruction and/or creation of space-time.”
— Guidelines
When is the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline classified as Low 2-C?
According to the established tiering system, an event resulting in the destruction or creation of a universe or a timeline is classified as Low 2-C (Universe+) only if the affected area encompasses a substantial four-dimensional space, exhibits a more-than-countably-infinite superiority over three-dimensional spaces, or includes the entirety of the space-time continuum. To meet these criteria, the entire timeline must be destroyed or created, accounting for all moment
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universe

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[FinePoint]

Wouldn't the entire 400 years thing make the snapshots finite hence High 3-A unironically instead of Low 2-C? Like in an infinite snapshot like L2-C, you can't even have the time itself to be finite or that's just High 3-A

Mathematically, no, any length of time would have uncountably infinite snapshots.

For the sake of our policies, though, I believe we still require that they affect the entire timeline, not just part of it, and for that reason I think I'm obligated to agree with a reduction to High 3-A.

There is an ongoing staff thread about it.

 

[Zackra1799]

Mathematically, no, any length of time would have uncountably infinite snapshots.

For the sake of our policies, though, I believe we still require that they affect the entire timeline, not just part of it, and for that reason I think I'm obligated to agree with a reduction to High 3-A.

There is an ongoing staff thread about it.

The 400-year deletion is a misconception

We have a blog explaining that Zeref is using Neo Eclipse to recreate the World as it was 400 years ago. To do this, he needs to not only destroy the current world completely but also recreate an entirely new space-time to make this happen, but instead of making the world as it was, it recreates it at the start of the user's life with all their memories intact, that's why Zeref says he will go back 400 years to relive his life over, not that he is simply erasing 400 years of history

 

[FinePoint]

The 400-year deletion is a misconception

We have a blog explaining that Zeref is using Neo Eclipse to recreate the World as it was 400 years ago. To do this, he needs to not only destroy the current world completely but also recreate an entirely new space-time to make this happen, but instead of making the world as it was, it recreates it at the start of the user's life with all their memories intact, that's why Zeref says he will go back 400 years to relive his life over, not that he is simply erasing 400 years of history

That blog makes some assumptions I don't feel entirely safe making.

Especially this one:
"Zeref is accomplishing this through high level time manipulation, and time is a concept that functions on a universal scale. That is, time flows the same way for the entirety of a universe, meaning Zeref would have to erase the whole universe to do a complete time reset."

To recreate the world as it was 400 years ago he would only need to erase 400 years of history. There's no guarantee that he destroyed and remade the entire timeline.

 

[Zackra1799]

That blog makes some assumptions I don't feel entirely safe making.

To recreate the world as it was 400 years ago he would only need to erase 400 years of history. There's no guarantee that he destroyed and remade the entire timeline.

It isn't an assumption, though; he literally calls it a time reset. A reset is to revert to an original position, the original position of time, which is what Zeref describes as being reset here; that would by definition be the beginning of time. This is corroborated by the fact that Zeref says, "this current world will crumble away, and my new world will take its place." This new world is a recreation, as he says that he will remake himself, without the current 400 years' worth of time that has passed since he became immortal.

Essentially, what Zeref is saying is that the current universe will be erased, and he will then make a replica of the universe minus the 400 years' worth of time he spent living as an immortal, so in essence, he is "going back" 400 years, but he has to erase and remake the timeline to do so

 

[FinePoint]

he has to erase and remake the timeline to do so

Not the entire timeline.

 

[Zackra1799]

Not the entire timeline.

he literally calls it a time reset

 

[FinePoint]

he literally calls it a time reset

Because it's 'resetting' to 400 years ago.
I don't find that verbiage to be definitive proof of affecting the entire timeline.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I feel like destroying the present timeline and recreating it at a past point counts as effecting a 4-D Space-Time Continuum

 

[FinePoint]

I found the relevant line in our policies. Via the Universe page.

• When is the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline ranked as low 2-C?

In accordance with the established Tiering System, an event that results in the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline is ranked as Low 2-C (Universe level+). This designation requires that the affected area encompasses a substantial four-dimensional space, exhibits more than countably infinite superiority over three-dimensional spaces, or comprises the entire space-time continuum. To meet these criteria, the entire timeline must be destroyed or created, taking into account all moments in time.

For the record, I personally agree this should be Low 2-C, but I don't make the rules.

 

[Zackra1799]

I found the relevant line in our policies. Via the Universe page.


For the record, I personally agree this should be Low 2-C, but I don't make the rules.

Wouldn't this still be low 2-C based on the fact that Zeref creates a new timeline starting from 400 years ago, as it is undeniable that he's both destroying and making a new universe, so its starting timeline would be from whenever Zeref decides to make it

 

[Saqphire]

For the sake of our policies, though, I believe we still require that they affect the entire timeline, not just part of it, and for that reason I think I'm obligated to agree with a reduction to High 3-A.

I think the whole thing might be confusing because the argumentation stems from a pre-concieved notion for this specific feat.

Zeref is destroying a world and creating a world with Neo Eclipse, but that doesn't mean the old world has any bearing to the new world Zeref is creating. He directly supports this by saying he isn't going to the past as I said from the start. Saying "he erases 400 years of the old timeline" assumes he is gonna shave off those 400 years and go to that point in the timeline, which ultimately means he would be going to the past in his way; something which is directly refuted here. His new world starts when he wants, when he isn't immortal and Acnologia can get killed etc. etc.

So these would be two separate worlds entirely, one where the main timeline always existed, and a hypothetical new one where it started when Zeref wanted to, which was 400 years prior to the events of the series. Zeref creating a new world can be High 3-A for all that matters, but him destroying the old one should still be Low 2-C because there would effectively be no evidence that Zeref was "only destroying 400 years worth of time in the old timeline", but rather that he was "destroying the world/universe", point simple.

 

[Saqphire]

For the record, if my argumentation above is sound, and Zeref's creation of a new world (again, not destroying the old one) would be High 3-A, that should scale to his stats because Fairy Tail has an accepted UES. This would be supported by Fairy Heart's statements of having unlimited power output, to which I would gladly show scans for if requested.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

For the record, if my argumentation above is sound, and Zeref's creation of a new world (again, not destroying the old one) would be High 3-A, that should scale to his stats because Fairy Tail has an accepted UES. This would be supported by Fairy Heart's statements of having unlimited power output, to which I would gladly show scans for if requested.

I mean 100%, Zeref very clearly put more effort into Dark Blast Inferno than Neo Eclipse, which ultimately also had all his power in it, so Zeref should just scale to Neo Eclipse in raw stats

I have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Nerd1435]

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass or affecting an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being "infinitely" stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

For one, using Ultear statement is honestly a weak evidence for an infinite sized Universe, how would Ultear know about it?

Anyway that aside, even destroying "just" 400 years of time encapsulates an uncountably infinite (cardinality of a set of all real numbers) "snapshots" (as this wiki would like to call them) of a "Universal 3D construct" (and again, its not as simple as sheets stacking on top of each other)

And the argument of Low 2C primarily seems to come from the statements and despair at the "World Erasure", this isn't just Zeref stating it but Mavis herself acknowledges so - that their world would be erased.

 

[Saqphire]

I mean 100%, Zeref very clearly put more effort into Dark Blast Inferno than Neo Eclipse, which ultimately also had all his power in it, so Zeref should just scale to Neo Eclipse in raw stats

I have no idea what you're talking about

It would be SOOO funny if you unretired just to help us get Low 2-C Zeref fr fr

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

It would be SOOO funny if you unretired just to help us get Low 2-C Zeref fr fr

Coming out of retirement just for this L2C would be so peak fr

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm in retirement... But I didn't say I wouldn't help with FT... It's just literally in its Final Arc and makes no sense to edit right now