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Btw I more or less agree with the P&A additions, we just need to adjust a few jurisdictions/descriptions and it'll be fine imo.
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Game Sonic CRT: Missing Powers and Abilities
- Thread starter ShakeResounding
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Talking about timeless void, white space from generations is one, and Sonic can move normally (and so can Eggman lol)
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There was the SA2 time switch the blog mentions
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Timeless voids need to be proven to be true timeless voids and I don’t think they grant that much abilities...
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I know, it only grants resistance to time stop, but it is clearly stated to have no time there by Eggman
ShakeResounding
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He's referring to Classic, but I already responded as to why it's still valid.
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It doesn’t I think. Could be wrong tho, I mainly know it doesn’t give infinite speed anymore due to formula not being applicable.
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That I know too
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I mean, appeal to authority and all.
I just really don't see how manifesting monsters from negative emotions is supposed to be Type 4 CM, when Type 4 CM involves the manipulation of concepts still. In fact, concepts are not even mentioned in the scans.
I can ask for someone like Ultima if needed.
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Yeah, I don't really see Type 4 here, especially since Conceptual Manipulation as a whole explicitly involves the manipulation of Universals that influence and affect reality in general, and not abstract things that are far more localized and vaguely-defined, like the doubts and emotions of individual people are. At the very best, that'd give Dark Gaia's minions Type 1 Abstract Existence and Non-Physical Interaction for people who can destroy them.
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I'm not assuming they're non-canon just because. I'm saying I find they're canon questionable because of how they appear. Both the teleporter and the slow-down shoes only appearing in competition mode, seems more like gameplay mechanics than an actual power to me.
As I said, it looks like the original (at least I assume original) version, Japan's, says this water is just colored different which directly opposes the english translation. We tend to take the original over any later translation so I don't think the points in the blog are good enough for it to be resistant. And, I know this is weird to say because logically you already think so, but is there any other indication of the water in these chemical plants being toxic within the series? Do characters ever mention their toxic nature, anything ever get made sick from the toxin, etc. Normally I wouldn't ask this, but since there seems to be a contradiction between the Japanese explanation and the english one, that would help me settle on one way or the other.
About the special zones, for those stages, those robots also seem to traverse them with no clear issue and the environment for all but one seems like a perfectly normal place with no clear time problems. And for that one stage that does show something is off, it's pretty much like the others with the buildings in the background looking perfectly fine and the robots you're attacking also having no problems moving around either. I think some more input is needed on that front before it should be accepted.
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I don't see why it being in the multiplayer would make it a "gameplay mechanic", it's a power up like any other monitor, it's appearance being only the multiplayer is irrelevant
The Classic games manuals are indeed very different in the American version, I did agree to find the original, peharps OP can find it at Sonic Retro, however the Sonic Wikia isn't WoG, and you shouldn't treat it as such
I don't see why people native to the zone being there debunks anything that it's stated by actual official sources, the UFO's that hold the Time Stone simply scale to being native from there, including any extra "civilization" that is native there
The Classic games manuals are indeed very different in the American version, I did agree to find the original, peharps OP can find it at Sonic Retro, however the Sonic Wikia isn't WoG, and you shouldn't treat it as such
I don't see why people native to the zone being there debunks anything that it's stated by actual official sources, the UFO's that hold the Time Stone simply scale to being native from there, including any extra "civilization" that is native there
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After further research, the Mega Mack being poison does seem to only an American invention, and not in the japonese canon, which was common back in the day
ShakeResounding
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Then no resistance to poisons in that case, and no Type 4 CM either. Got it.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Then what exactly is chemical plant if not well, a CHEMICAL plant? I mean there must be chemicals produced there right?
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To be quite honest I don't get why this wiki treats harming souls as soul manipulation at all. And we should probably see if the original japanese corroborates with the "concentrated spirit energy" descriptor before making a definite change.
Beyond stuff others have already said that was the only thing I wanted to bring up. Good job with finding these.
Beyond stuff others have already said that was the only thing I wanted to bring up. Good job with finding these.
ShakeResounding
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Oh? That was supposed to be removed, I thought I did so
ShakeResounding
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Bump!
ShakeResounding
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Bump!
ShakeResounding
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Apologies for taking so long to get back to this, I'm willing to concede on my points about the teleportation power up and the slowdown shoes being non-canon, though I do maintain that said slow-down shoes would be Self Statistics Reduction since they seem to directly affect the player who picks them up instead of affecting the opposite player.
Void already has abstract existence so I don't think they can qualify for Non-Existent Physiology, that and the evidence for it I don't think is enough.
Also for Void's death manipulation, you should get a scan of either Void causing the death of all those plants and animals or it being mentioned that Void did that since whats linked is just the restoration of the dead land.
The Ichikoro Gauge seems very much like pure game mechanics, I think it needs more justification. Hyper mode I'm also cautious of for similar reasons.
For resistance to Time Stop for the Time Switch, we don't normally give resistance to Time Stop users for being able to move in their own time stop so that will have to go. And with that so does Resistance Negation from Sonic with the Chaos Emeralds. Also since I don't think BFR resistance is a thing for the Chaos Emeralds as I said earlier in the thread, resistance negation for Time Eater also has to go.
Everything else, besides what Ultima brought up earlier I think looks okay.
Void already has abstract existence so I don't think they can qualify for Non-Existent Physiology, that and the evidence for it I don't think is enough.
Also for Void's death manipulation, you should get a scan of either Void causing the death of all those plants and animals or it being mentioned that Void did that since whats linked is just the restoration of the dead land.
The Ichikoro Gauge seems very much like pure game mechanics, I think it needs more justification. Hyper mode I'm also cautious of for similar reasons.
For resistance to Time Stop for the Time Switch, we don't normally give resistance to Time Stop users for being able to move in their own time stop so that will have to go. And with that so does Resistance Negation from Sonic with the Chaos Emeralds. Also since I don't think BFR resistance is a thing for the Chaos Emeralds as I said earlier in the thread, resistance negation for Time Eater also has to go.
Everything else, besides what Ultima brought up earlier I think looks okay.
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Hyper mode is an acual transformation in the game, it's as canon as the other moves, the same applies to the Ichiriko Gauge, they are moves the character is able to use, I don't see why they would be "gameplay mechanics"
That isn't the argument brought on the blog, it's that the other characters can speak to each other while time is stopped, even though they weren't who activated the switch
Gilad_Hyperstar
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The time stop doesn't come from Sonic's abiity, but rather from the switch itself. The switch is the one stopping time and the SA2 cast are able to move in it regardless of time being stopped or not, as well as talk to each other while time is stopped despite them not activating the switch
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So I have to backtrack on hyper mode because I can see in what was linked that Hyper Mode does very much look like something that isn't gameplay mechanics. However, the way that the Ichiriko Gauge functions seems steeply based in being a game mechanic. Does it have any in-universe explanation as for why blocking damage, just taking a hit and healing cause this bar to fill up and then give them the ability to knock out their opponents? Or is there any explanation into the nature of the Ichiriko Gauge? The way it appears and functions, seems to point towards it being more of a game mechanic than an actual power.
For Hyper Mode, the characters are using a chaos emerald and then they gain a stat boost (and reduction from how its described) which is a known power of the Chaos Emeralds.
Then the justification in the blog needs to be adjusted since all that is linked is this:
(Like Sonic, Tails can move normally even after he hits the Time Switch, which brings everything to a standstill and freezes the in-game timer)
Which says nothing about them talking and such in stopped time. Though I must also question the logistics of this ability since it doesn't sound like a proper time-stop power.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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What's exactly there is to question? It works like this: Switch is being hit -> In-Game timer, along with badniks and the rest of the environment, stops completely until the switch's effects expire
This is pretty straightforward and simple
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The fact that their communicators are still working within the stopped time. While the characters themselves resisting isn't too much of an issue, electronics such as that shouldn't work at all while time is stopped.
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It does thanks to the characters healing ability, they actively can increase the energy of the gauge, it directly related to the power they have, with some being terrible at healing but good at getting energy, etc.
Eggman is clearly speaking in the clip you linked dude
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I'm saying that the gauge itself lacks in universe justification for how it functions and operates.
I'm talking about the justification that was given here.
In that clip, they aren't with one another while talking and are communicating through some type of communicators. Those shouldn't be working in stopped time. I honestly think that bit of justification should be dismissed since it seems more like its for the player than it is actually happening.
I should also mention that even if accepted as proper resistance to time stop, the chaos emeralds wouldn't be granted resistance negation but a stronger form of time stop.
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And I am saying it doesn't, it's directly related to the characters abilities, it's simply a ability to charge energy and release it at your opponent, claiming it's a gameplay mechanic is claiming the characters moves are gameplay mechanics, and that is not how it works
That wasn't what was said in the post I replied, but it isn't for the player, it's for the character in order to tell them the plan to get the Core of the Ark, this isn't gameplay mechanics, that isn't how they work, this the lore and plot of the game
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I remain steadfast in my argument against the gauge. If you wish to have that accepted, it will have be through convincing other staff members of its validity.
The only my proof for them having resistance is the characters being able to talk when the switch is activated. Them being able to move isn't the case because when we see them moving, it's normally the character who flipped the switch that's moving and we don't give resistance to Time Stop to those that possess it. And going back to them talking to one another in the stopped time, it shouldn't be possible due to their main means of communication at the time being electronic devices that should stop working like everything else around them.
Unless there is an explanation as to why they're able to talk through these comms in stopped time, I believe it should be dismissed as evidence due to its contradictory nature.
So I do not support resistance to time stop.
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This isn't a counter argument, this is just straight up being stubborn, this isn't how you are supposed to hold a debate but oh well, everyone seems fine with it outside of you
This still isn't what I was replying to, but it is a fair point which is why I didn't argue against, however resistance to time stop is still valid because of the CD points you never truly debunked
Gilad_Hyperstar
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In the last story, Tails is firing attacks from his mechs while Time is stopped, and so does Eggman with his own mech, also here's another example
Eggman is the one who created his own mech, meaning he can create machines that can still operate at stopped time. And considering that his mech communicator works even when time is stopped, there's no reason his communicator won't work too. Especially since Eggman doesn't leave the mech during the gameplay in the last story. Eggman would also not be able to operate the mech by your argument since by your logic, the time stop movement would only apply to Eggman, but not his equipment, and the same is true for Tails
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I remain unconvinced by your argument and do not wish to argue in circles, hence why I said that.
I wasn't replying to the CD argument or Sonic having resistance to Time Stop because I now believe his arguments hold weight. That's why when I made my big post from earlier, I said everything else besides Ultima's argument looks okay.
And there is no explanation given as to how their machine's work in Time Stop so I don't particularly find the justification that
"Eggman just knows how to make things that operate in Time Stop." As a good enough one to help justify all these other characters getting resistance to Time Stop.
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But this is just stonewalling, I understand avoiding circular arguments but there was literally only five posts debates, first you said you didn't agree, I explained why, you then agreed on the Hyper Mode but thought there wasn't enough proof, I gave you proof, you wanted in universe reasoning, I gave you that, but then you just refused by saying "NO". You didn't even debate on why it was incorrect, your entire argument is just "because I said so", there is no circular argument because there is no argument from you, just stonewalling
Gilad_Hyperstar
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You have the feats from the gamplay to show that it clearly works (and I even linked them to you), or else Eggman would not be able to operate the mech while he hits the switch. I'm not just saying "Eggman just knows how to make things that operate in Time Stop.", I say that because there are feats that back it up, and Eggman's machines can also work in places where time is either broken (such as in Sonic Mania's final boss), or non-existent (White Space in Sonic Generations) so it's actually consistent for Eggman to build machines that can operate in stopped and/or distorted time.
Not everything needs to be stated in order to be valid, visual feats are things for a reason, and you can't just ignore them
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You do realize that you require more than a single staff for anything to go through right? While I don't agree with you, that doesn't immedieately extend to the rest. I said I don't agree with the gauge because the way it appears and operates points to it being a game mechanic, it has no in-universe justification or explanation from what I could find. Nothing you said has led me to believe otherwise.
So while I do not give my backing to it, someone else on the staff may and you should seek them out if you wish so.
And if Eggman has consistently made machines that have been shown to operate just fine in areas with strange time, then I can agree with giving Time Stop/Time Manipulation resistance to Eggman and his machinery.
I thought this was the only instance of something of Eggman's operating in stopped time so it didn't make sense without greater explanation to give Time Stop resistance to a wider range of characters. Is tail's machinery also shown to have no issues operating in these same areas?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yes, Tails can also make machines that worked in a very similar way to Eggman's owm machinary. Eggman's mech was also compared to Tails's mech in regards to their similarity
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In that case, I have no issue with Tails and Robotnick getting resistance to Time Stop, but due to how Time Stopping is normally treated, I don't think it should be extended to the other player characters since from what I could see you don't ever hear from the others unless they're the ones stopping time in the video linked.
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