- 5,988
- 2,761
Well, here we are again... Almost 3 years later...
I've been putting off this topic for quite a while, but at 0:35 AM, I'm writing this text on my second attempt, because after half an hour of writing my laptop decided to show a blue screen and the damn text didn't save at all. However, I won't give up. @Huesito88, bro, I finally did it.
Grappler Baki is one of the most unstable and speculative verses on this wiki. From what I remember, its power level has changed no less than 11 times and ranged from 8-C to 6-C. Only DC and Marvel comics, and also Devil May Cry, have suffered more than Grappler Baki.
I fundamentally disagree with the current power level balance of the verse and the mess happening on its pages.
I see three main problems, which have already been discussed in other threads, but not fully, and which I will analyze in more detail below:
1. The controversial canonicity of Retsu Isekai;
2. Orochi's "Prime key" and why it shouldn't exist;
3. Absurd statements by the manga author that support the high power level;
Let's start in order:
As you understand, many statements are simply absurd and pulled out of thin air. And statements by US presidents, such as Yujiro being able to survive nuclear weapons, are immediately crushed by their admission that they can't test this because Yujiro lives in cities and they can't destroy them.
Thus, quotes and statements from this verse must be treated with extreme caution due to the huge amount of hyperbole and metaphors.
Based on all of the above, I propose to completely exclude Retsu Isekai from the list of feats and the verse page, remove the Prime Orochi key, remove the 7-C earthquake calculation, and impose a ban on its use, similar to what is done with some feats from Naruto and Bleach.
Agree (2): @Therefir, @Damage3245
Disagree (1): @Armorchompy
I've been putting off this topic for quite a while, but at 0:35 AM, I'm writing this text on my second attempt, because after half an hour of writing my laptop decided to show a blue screen and the damn text didn't save at all. However, I won't give up. @Huesito88, bro, I finally did it.
Grappler Baki is one of the most unstable and speculative verses on this wiki. From what I remember, its power level has changed no less than 11 times and ranged from 8-C to 6-C. Only DC and Marvel comics, and also Devil May Cry, have suffered more than Grappler Baki.
I fundamentally disagree with the current power level balance of the verse and the mess happening on its pages.
I see three main problems, which have already been discussed in other threads, but not fully, and which I will analyze in more detail below:
1. The controversial canonicity of Retsu Isekai;
2. Orochi's "Prime key" and why it shouldn't exist;
3. Absurd statements by the manga author that support the high power level;
Let's start in order:
The issues with the title's copyright were discussed in detail in this and this threads. The manga was written by a fan of the series without any consent from Itagaki, and during their personal meeting, Itagaki still did not acknowledge the idea. Essentially, the project is completely fan-made, created in the hope of getting approval from the author of the original story.
The problem also lies elsewhere - the best feats from Retsu Gaiden are outliers for the main universe.
We have:
1. A statement that the princess's power can destroy a country;
2. Destruction of an island, yielding results from High 7-C to High 7-A;
3. Release of Hades power, which yields 6-C results;
And all of this against the backdrop of a single feat of stopping an earthquake, which stands out among all other power demonstrations in GB and is the only feat that goes beyond 8-B;
Well, this is the first and, I hope, the last time I spent a huge amount of time on calculations and studying CGM walls only for those calculations not to make it onto the verse page.
Thus, using Retsu Isekai as primary, secondary, or even tertiary canon is unsuitable from the perspective of story, copyright, and the internal balance of the verse.
The problem also lies elsewhere - the best feats from Retsu Gaiden are outliers for the main universe.
We have:
1. A statement that the princess's power can destroy a country;
2. Destruction of an island, yielding results from High 7-C to High 7-A;
3. Release of Hades power, which yields 6-C results;
And all of this against the backdrop of a single feat of stopping an earthquake, which stands out among all other power demonstrations in GB and is the only feat that goes beyond 8-B;
Well, this is the first and, I hope, the last time I spent a huge amount of time on calculations and studying CGM walls only for those calculations not to make it onto the verse page.
Thus, using Retsu Isekai as primary, secondary, or even tertiary canon is unsuitable from the perspective of story, copyright, and the internal balance of the verse.
As I mentioned above, the earthquake calculation is the main topic of speculation among fans and has been revised over 10 times. It was already rejected by me and Therefir 2 years ago, but it seems the CGMs are so tired of this feat that the last time it was accepted, it was just for the sake of it.
Main argument for accepting the earthquake-stopping feat is that it was performed by Yujiro, who is the Godtier of his verse and scales far above the others. However... This feat was performed at a very early stage of the story. Let me say something absurd: this feat was performed even before Yujiro was shamefully put to sleep by guards and caught in a net.
Look at the current profiles - this calculation scales to almost the entire main cast and even to extras from the Sumo arc. A total of 25 profiles scale to this. And I'll tell you more - there could have been not 25/80 of these 7-C profiles, but 70+/80.
The only thing protecting the entire Bakiverse from this level is the "Prime Key" in Orochi's profile.
This key has no clear justification. It exists solely so that the entire verse doesn't scale to Yujiro. More details on why the Prime key shouldn't exist were explained here and here. In the fight with Yujiro, Orochi was able to dominate base Yujiro, forcing him to use Demon's Back. He fully scales to and even surpasses base Yujiro. After his defeat, he only becomes stronger and also trains his son, Katsumi. By the way, the Mechanical Fist was developed as a trump card capable of defeating Yujiro, and Doppo himself, who fought him at full strength, believed in this.
Therefore, Hanayama should scale to this, followed by Baki, Jack, the Golanovs, Sikorsky, Gaia, and probably even the damn Zulu.
Now do you understand the problem with this feat?
Besides being an obvious outlier, standing out against all other power demonstrations in the manga, which usually range from 9-B to 8-C and have 8-B in their best interpretations, besides the fact that stopping an earthquake makes no sense as the punch would only intensify the earthquake, besides all that - the feat was performed too early in the series for us to take it seriously.
If it had been done during the Pickle arc, it might have made sense. However, according to the mangaka and the characters, Yujiro becomes stronger every day. This works in reverse as well, meaning all current Bakiverse characters scale above the earliest versions of Yujiro.
Not only does splitting Orochi's profile into "Prime" and other keys lack basis, but it was created purely to hide the elephant in the room.
This key should be removed. The earthquake feat, in turn, should either scale to 90% of the Bakiverse or be removed as an outlier.
Main argument for accepting the earthquake-stopping feat is that it was performed by Yujiro, who is the Godtier of his verse and scales far above the others. However... This feat was performed at a very early stage of the story. Let me say something absurd: this feat was performed even before Yujiro was shamefully put to sleep by guards and caught in a net.
Look at the current profiles - this calculation scales to almost the entire main cast and even to extras from the Sumo arc. A total of 25 profiles scale to this. And I'll tell you more - there could have been not 25/80 of these 7-C profiles, but 70+/80.
The only thing protecting the entire Bakiverse from this level is the "Prime Key" in Orochi's profile.
This key has no clear justification. It exists solely so that the entire verse doesn't scale to Yujiro. More details on why the Prime key shouldn't exist were explained here and here. In the fight with Yujiro, Orochi was able to dominate base Yujiro, forcing him to use Demon's Back. He fully scales to and even surpasses base Yujiro. After his defeat, he only becomes stronger and also trains his son, Katsumi. By the way, the Mechanical Fist was developed as a trump card capable of defeating Yujiro, and Doppo himself, who fought him at full strength, believed in this.
Therefore, Hanayama should scale to this, followed by Baki, Jack, the Golanovs, Sikorsky, Gaia, and probably even the damn Zulu.
Now do you understand the problem with this feat?
Besides being an obvious outlier, standing out against all other power demonstrations in the manga, which usually range from 9-B to 8-C and have 8-B in their best interpretations, besides the fact that stopping an earthquake makes no sense as the punch would only intensify the earthquake, besides all that - the feat was performed too early in the series for us to take it seriously.
If it had been done during the Pickle arc, it might have made sense. However, according to the mangaka and the characters, Yujiro becomes stronger every day. This works in reverse as well, meaning all current Bakiverse characters scale above the earliest versions of Yujiro.
Not only does splitting Orochi's profile into "Prime" and other keys lack basis, but it was created purely to hide the elephant in the room.
This key should be removed. The earthquake feat, in turn, should either scale to 90% of the Bakiverse or be removed as an outlier.
I've often heard that indirect evidence for the 7 tier are character quotes, databooks, and magazines.
However, let me briefly walk you through the theater of the absurd so you understand why this shouldn't be taken seriously.
1. The battle between Guevara and Oliva is described as a clash of titans that caused a global catastrophe beyond dimensions:
« 超雄対決に、 「税込」 刃牙介入ッッ!!!! 刃牙によって罵られた
オリバ・ゲバル二人の超雄達の闘いは
次元を超えたレベルに突入する!!!!! そして地球規模の異変をも
引き起こす究極バトルへと・
愛のオリバか、勇気のゲバルか 男と男の頂上決戦、ついに決着! »
« In the super-oceanic confrontation "tax included," Baki intervenes. !!!! The curse of Baki
The fight between the two superheroes Oliva Geballe
The battle between the two superheroes goes beyond dimensions. !!!!! And then - a decisive battle that will cause global cataclysms...
Oliva of love or Guevara of courage? The ultimate showdown between men finally comes to an end! »
If you've read the manga, you remember that satellites are monitoring Guevara and Oliva, and when their movement speed exceeds a certain norm, all satellites switch to them. During their fight, the satellites started tracking them, causing a worldwide navigation failure. Yes, this is what Itagaki called a catastrophe of global scale;
1. Miyamoto Musashi's power equals that of a nuclear weapon;
2. The battle between Baki and Yujiro took place at light speeds:
「俺がこのアホ勝負を 終わらせるッ
ピクルの乱入で怒り心頭に発した刃牙は、 父の攻撃のダメージから跳ね起き、
ピクルを殴りつけるのだったッッ!!!!再び、対峙する範馬親子!!!!
攻撃を決断する0.5秒という刹那を 争う 光速の闘いを制するのは･･!?
そして、その意識のトリガーの奪い合いを打ち破るべく
勇次郎が提案する奇想天外な展開とは...!?!?
刃牙(5勇次郎、最強親子喧嘩、第2局面開幕ッッ!!!!!!
« I will end this stupid game.
Baki, enraged by Pickle's intrusion, jumps up from the damage inflicted by his father's attack and hits Pickle!!!! The Hanma father and son confront each other again!
Who will win the battle at the speed of light, where they compete for the 0.5-second moment when they decide to attack...!?
And what is the bizarre development proposed by Yujiro to break the competition for the consciousness trigger...!?!?
Baki (5 Yujiro, the strongest parent-child fight, the second phase begins!!!!!!
1. Yujiro evolves at the speed of light and as fast as the universe expands:
JP: «ユージローは 今この瞬間にも 強くなり続けて いる! 限りなく 広大な
宇宙が 光の速度で さらに膨張を 続ける ようにだ!!!»
RUS: «At this very moment, Yujiro continues to become stronger and stronger! Just as the infinite vastness of the universe continues to expand at the speed of light!»
⌯──────────────⌯
強い -- strong;
限りなく -- unlimitedly, without limit, without end, endlessly, infinitely, exceedingly;
広大な -- vast, enormous; expanded;
宇宙 -- cosmos, space, universe;
光 -- light;
速度 -- speed, pace
However, let me briefly walk you through the theater of the absurd so you understand why this shouldn't be taken seriously.
1. The battle between Guevara and Oliva is described as a clash of titans that caused a global catastrophe beyond dimensions:
« 超雄対決に、 「税込」 刃牙介入ッッ!!!! 刃牙によって罵られた
オリバ・ゲバル二人の超雄達の闘いは
次元を超えたレベルに突入する!!!!! そして地球規模の異変をも
引き起こす究極バトルへと・
愛のオリバか、勇気のゲバルか 男と男の頂上決戦、ついに決着! »
« In the super-oceanic confrontation "tax included," Baki intervenes. !!!! The curse of Baki
The fight between the two superheroes Oliva Geballe
The battle between the two superheroes goes beyond dimensions. !!!!! And then - a decisive battle that will cause global cataclysms...
Oliva of love or Guevara of courage? The ultimate showdown between men finally comes to an end! »
If you've read the manga, you remember that satellites are monitoring Guevara and Oliva, and when their movement speed exceeds a certain norm, all satellites switch to them. During their fight, the satellites started tracking them, causing a worldwide navigation failure. Yes, this is what Itagaki called a catastrophe of global scale;
1. Miyamoto Musashi's power equals that of a nuclear weapon;
2. The battle between Baki and Yujiro took place at light speeds:
「俺がこのアホ勝負を 終わらせるッ
ピクルの乱入で怒り心頭に発した刃牙は、 父の攻撃のダメージから跳ね起き、
ピクルを殴りつけるのだったッッ!!!!再び、対峙する範馬親子!!!!
攻撃を決断する0.5秒という刹那を 争う 光速の闘いを制するのは･･!?
そして、その意識のトリガーの奪い合いを打ち破るべく
勇次郎が提案する奇想天外な展開とは...!?!?
刃牙(5勇次郎、最強親子喧嘩、第2局面開幕ッッ!!!!!!
« I will end this stupid game.
Baki, enraged by Pickle's intrusion, jumps up from the damage inflicted by his father's attack and hits Pickle!!!! The Hanma father and son confront each other again!
Who will win the battle at the speed of light, where they compete for the 0.5-second moment when they decide to attack...!?
And what is the bizarre development proposed by Yujiro to break the competition for the consciousness trigger...!?!?
Baki (5 Yujiro, the strongest parent-child fight, the second phase begins!!!!!!
1. Yujiro evolves at the speed of light and as fast as the universe expands:
JP: «ユージローは 今この瞬間にも 強くなり続けて いる! 限りなく 広大な
宇宙が 光の速度で さらに膨張を 続ける ようにだ!!!»
RUS: «At this very moment, Yujiro continues to become stronger and stronger! Just as the infinite vastness of the universe continues to expand at the speed of light!»
⌯──────────────⌯
強い -- strong;
限りなく -- unlimitedly, without limit, without end, endlessly, infinitely, exceedingly;
広大な -- vast, enormous; expanded;
宇宙 -- cosmos, space, universe;
光 -- light;
速度 -- speed, pace
As you understand, many statements are simply absurd and pulled out of thin air. And statements by US presidents, such as Yujiro being able to survive nuclear weapons, are immediately crushed by their admission that they can't test this because Yujiro lives in cities and they can't destroy them.
Thus, quotes and statements from this verse must be treated with extreme caution due to the huge amount of hyperbole and metaphors.
Based on all of the above, I propose to completely exclude Retsu Isekai from the list of feats and the verse page, remove the Prime Orochi key, remove the 7-C earthquake calculation, and impose a ban on its use, similar to what is done with some feats from Naruto and Bleach.
Agree (2): @Therefir, @Damage3245
Disagree (1): @Armorchompy
Last edited:
