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Grappler Baki Downgrade... Again
- Thread starter NikHelton
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they did I just don't really care, beyond "trying to say the Chicxulub Impact Event would have obliterated America is wack"
I guess this particular thread is another take on the earthquake feat as well, and yeah my mind hasn't really changed since last time. I'll just additionally note that scaling a majority of the verse to the ever glazed strongest guy would be quite strange, yes
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Doppo scales to Yujiro. Shibukawa scales to Doppo. Jack scales to Shibukawa. And so on. That's how scaling works.
If we use High 8-C calculations for Yujiro, it's not surprising that 8-C characters can damage him. But that doesn't work when Yujiro is 7-C due to a single feat that lacks a solid foundation.
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Scaling is when you say a bunch of stuff offhand that contradicts... the entire plot leading up to Son of Ogre, being that Baki wants to become strong enough to get back at his father, which is incredibly difficult given said father is the strongest man in the world?
As Armor's mentioned you don't have any scans, I'm just not going to be compelled until that point is reached.
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I think the second one is better.
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The manga doesn't directly state this. One random clueless no-name character who is immediately after shown to have no clue about Doppo's current health states this and is contradicted like three pages after when Doppo nearly collapses from the injuries he was hiding.
Doppo loses access to his best technique, is put in a near-death state and performs noticeably worse in fights for a while. Just because the downgrade isn't spelled out doesn't mean that there isn't a fair reason to assume it happened.
I love the tiniest most pathetic summary for my arguments after a long and elaborate one for those you agree with. I really feel properly represented.
The earthquake feat can be explained as "the force was spent nullifying the earthquake so it wasn't able to destroy anything" and while it is illogical to a degree it's honestly more internally consistent than most manga earthquake feats, which don't have the nullification aspect to them as at least a possible explanation for the lack of collateral damage created by the allegedly powerful energies released.
The claim that no feat approaches this one is outright false. Pickle survived a meteorite impact from a distance and while it can't easily be calculated it still absolutely works to back up the rating. Yujiro is repeatedly compared to a nuclear bomb in power and considered unstoppable by the US military and while the exact meaning of these statements can be hard to quantify when there's a 7-C feat on the table it isn't hard to see them as support.
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This is a problem when the only ones who should be able to rank up to Yujiro are Baki and the main cast. In the end, Baki Son Ogre and Baki Dou, meaning Jack Hanayama, Katsumi Arm Retsu ,Retsu Doppo, Sukune, Picke Musashi.
And then I also don't see a problem when we have verses like Kengan where even minor characters rank up to God tier.
And then I also don't see a problem when we have verses like Kengan where even minor characters rank up to God tier.
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Corrected.
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It seems that the weird Retsu thing was a misunderstanding (I think?) so I won't tackle that one. The rest of this....oh boy, here we go.
By the way, apologies if this comes off as annoyed or aggressive; I was low-key pissed when I wrote most of this, and it aint even really your fault, just sort of bad timing. But I also cant let this go through, so...yeah. Don't take anything I say here personal.
You use this scan to primarily justify Doppo being in his prime. Seems alright I guess, I mean its not like its contradicted on the next page or anything-
Whoa whaaaaaat where the **** did that come from?
Sarcasm aside, the obvious intent for this scene is to establish that Doppo is just trying to look cool in front of the other younger fighters, and so feigns being fine to them, and by extension, the announcer (not a reliable source in the first place, btw). But when the act is up, it's revealed he got pieced the **** up by this complete random we never hear from again. Nothing here is truly indicative he's "as strong as ever". I'll go into this in more depth down below, but Doppo is just not as strong as he once was.
Edit: Okay so quick final thing before I post, it turns out the raws don't even say he's as strong as he was before, just that he's still "going strong" lol, I really need to upload the official translation of Grappler Baki whenever I get it so we don't have these issues anymore.
Orochi did NOT "dominate" Yujiro
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
The guidebook confirms that Doppo's "trap" stance that was meant to mess up Yujiro's ribs did nothing to him. This is consistent with the rest of the fight, as until Doppo activates Sagan, which is considered a “legendary technique” (helping to explain how it allows him to close the gap between them), Yujiro takes no visible damage and is perfectly fine, while Doppo is getting dominated. To add insult to injury, it also confirms that Yujiro wasn't serious during their fight until he activates his Demon Back, at which point the blows that were working, now at best give him a slight nosebleed when he isn't defending at all.
So Doppo, without using Sagan, is downscaling Yujiro, though is still 7-C. He also does have a quote unquote "Prime", even if it isn't completely spelled out. If this fight were the only thing to go off of, I'd honestly just say that he doesn't scale to it except with Sagan; but in the Doppo Gaiden, Kenjin, the first chapter showcases that years earlier before the series, well within his prime, he was able to break Yuichiro's Jaw with a kick after dodging his punch.
This implies that yes, even if he isn't even close to Yujiro normally, he's still a God Tier (though Yujiro is also > Yuichiro). This also lines up narratively, as Yujiro thought that it'd be a "great night", at least compared to his usual stuff, and "liked his style". With Sagan, however, I'd argue he fully scales to base Yujiro.
Now let's be real here: he was obviously nerfed heavily from his fight with Yujiro, it just makes logical sense. He was already established as being in the last year of his prime, and that was with him actively training and trying to stay in top form. Having his eye gored out, thus losing access to the one technique that put him on par with casual Yujiro, losing chunks of his body, and his heart being ******* stopped, thus killing him, might take a liiiittle bit of a toll on him and his fighting capabilities, no matter how "good of a recovery" he had. It's also obviously implied that he has gotten weaker; I'll refer back to his fight with the rando where he has to try and act like he's still in his prime to trick everyone into thinking he's still the "War God". Honestly, the fact that he did lose access to arguably his best technique would be grounds enough to justify a whole different key, but I digress.
This idea also solves the issue of Katsumi being "stronger" than him up above, as, while he may be stronger, he's only stronger than the current Doppo, not the one who faced Yujiro. Also ignore the weird history thing; not only is it more of a "This dude is the guy that's gonna push Karate forward as a martial art due to his talent", rather than something like "he's the strongest in history", I'm like 99% certain that it's a mistranslation and the wording is pretty different, so I'm currently getting it translated.
For those who aren't in the know, Nik is correct in that there are many statements and scans that directly and indirectly support Tier 7 Baki. However, because all of these are against his CRT, he's attempting to dilute their validity by using some odd jumble of weird logic that, because some statements are obviously metaphors or hyperbole, most/all statements should be treated the same.
...
...
...
I shouldn't have to tell you that just because some of them in the series are meant to be hype or hyperbole, it does not automatically mean literally every statement of power is null and void lmao. Of course, there are definitely some statements that align with this logic, a few of which he posts below, but again, this is just faulty reasoning, and a classic example of the Hasty Generalization Fallacy. If you wanted to establish some kind of ground rule like this, you would need dozens of individual, obviously hyperbolic and fluff statements referring to power and how strong they are that aren't just common sayings.
The truth is, I think this is all just a smokescreen to help pass this downgrade without having to deal with those pesky statements, which were oh so conveniently left out. Don't worry though, I've got your back! In fact, I compiled all of them for you and everyone else to read in full, just to see how grossly exaggerate and flowery they all are. But first, I might as well acknowledge the examples you provided.
Unless you mean that Musashi isn't literally an explosion, so the statement is bad, which....I'm just gonna assume that's not what you meant. Otherwise things get a whole lot funnier.
(Apologies for the watermark on some, only thing I could use on such short notice)
Before we begin, I'd like to establish something before diving into all of this.
Military Might = Nukes
You'd think I wouldn't have to establish this, but if I want to squash any potential counter argument, I've got to cover all of my bases.
Military Might is defined as: the strength and capabilities of a nation's armed forces, including its personnel, equipment, technology, and strategic positioning.
Nuclear Bombs can fall under either equipment or technology, whichever suits your fancy, but no matter what, its obviously traditionally included in the definition, as Nukes are a huge part of a countries arsenal, and have been for nearly a century. There is no reason for any mention of Military Might to not include such things. Additionally, you can argue that something like "army" could include this as well, but since that's far more up for interpretation, and I dont need it, I won't use it, as its only going to inevitably lead to more useless arguing. Whelps, let's go.
The Scans
Here's a compilation of all of the statements, both in and outside of the universe, mentioning Yujiro's power being equal or greater to nukes, whether directly or through the aforementioned established "military might" thing.
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou")
(Source: "Baki Ultimate Book: Grappler Side")
Literally calls him a walking nuclear bomb, exclusively with his fists, furthering the narrative consistency of these statements.
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
Probably one of the most explicit, it states that Yujiro Hanma is on par with not only armies, but also all of their weapons, which would include their nuclear bombs. So even if you dont think "military might" is enough to justify it including nukes....there you go.
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
Nations around the world needed entire nuclear arsenals to potentially counter Yujiro when he grows up. He's also called a "terrifying weapon" and "beyond comprehension", despite nuclear bombs existing. This is actually another statement in the series itself, but this just straight up says that yeah it's all true lol.
(this isn't me saying he's nuke level when he's a baby btw, its clear all of these leaders are doing this in preparation, not to counter the then infant Yujiro)
(New Grappler Baki Chapter 134)
That's all the out of universe stuff, and that by itself is probably enough to get the point across that these statements are consistent and not just some flowery metaphorical bs or whatever, but what the hell, let’s tackle the in-universe statements, shall we?
The only thing this actually tells us is that, even if a nuclear bomb were to be able to work (implying that it probably wouldn't in the first place), they wouldn't have a safe place to test it. That's it. There is nothing that explicitly debunks literally all of the presidents and various other people's statements beyond being extremely anal and thinking that they're just guessing when they say that he's stronger.
Now, to give credit where its due, if it were a one or two off statement, I might be willing accept that it is just them saying bullshit; however, it's very evidently not, with these statements continuing for years after this supposed "debunk" by this one random guy who we never hear from again.
This is obvious, but Obama literally says that Yujiro is stronger than the US's forces; later on, Trump states he's above any of the latest missiles, showing an ICBM, further stating that his back alone "Exuded the truth of that notion". You can't get anymore literal than this.
Says that Yujiro is stronger than any country in the world, despite just mentioning Nuclear Bombs and showing more ICBMs in the previous panel.
Yet again, another statement of Yujiro's strength rivaling the military might of an entire nation.
imgur.com
When a younger version of Yujiro says he wants to be "more powerful than any army", with "pure, physical, brute fighting strength", he shows more missiles. Obviously, he would later fulfill this dream.
This one implies that Yujiro Hanma is capable of facing armies equipped with all types of weapons, including missiles, just like his ancestors with the Demon Back did in their time.
That's 11, count em, 11 different statements, all corroborating that Yujiro's strength rivals or surpasses a nations entire military, including nuclear weapons. And these are just the ones I found/have access to, I'm sure there are plenty more around (I actually ordered the Old Ultimate guides so expect stuff from that sometime in the future). Are you going to tell me with a straight face that every single one of these is just some exaggerated and untrue glazing? If so, then I'm afraid we've nothing left to talk about.
However, don't get me wrong: I'm still perfectly open to discussing future revisions in the future with you, if you so wish, as it's obvious to me that you have a great deal of knowledge on the series, and I'm sure you could provide insight and help, as well as pointing out what could be wrong. If you ever do want to so, feel free to give me a holler.
Tl;dr
1. Doppo does have a "prime", and must due to him receiving injuries that prevent him from using his best technique, Sagan, as well as the narrative implications of him merely pretending to be as strong as before.
2. No one scales to Yujiro in the Maximum Tournament Saga because of this, removing any sort of inconsistency issue resulting from everyone and their mother being 7-C.
3. Attempting to chalk up all statements of power as "absurd" using 3 mixed examples of obvious hyperbole, metaphor, and an actual statement of power out of context and without explanation, while also not truly tackling the statements alluded to, is ridiculous and fallacious.
4. 7-C statements are incredibly consistent throughout the series itself and in the out of universe guidebooks meant to objectively explain and dissect the series; Yujiro's power has been established for decades now, leaving little room for doubt, and thus not subject to the claim that they're all merely hype and flowery.
Thank you for coming to my ted talk
By the way, apologies if this comes off as annoyed or aggressive; I was low-key pissed when I wrote most of this, and it aint even really your fault, just sort of bad timing. But I also cant let this go through, so...yeah. Don't take anything I say here personal.
This would be an outlier if he was High 8-C as you want him, just as it is with 7-C. Unless you wanna downgrade Yujiro to Wall Level and Peak Human lifting strength, this is irrelevant.Main argument for accepting the earthquake-stopping feat is that it was performed by Yujiro, who is the Godtier of his verse and scales far above the others. However... This feat was performed at a very early stage of the story. Let me say something absurd: this feat was performed even before Yujiro was shamefully put to sleep by guards and caught in a net.
Powercreep's a *****, ain't it?
Bro, post your arguments in the actual thread, it's basic CRT 101. All that does is make it more difficult to actually engage with. Also, neither of these were accepted, so I'm not exactly sure why you're pointing to them.
You use this scan to primarily justify Doppo being in his prime. Seems alright I guess, I mean its not like its contradicted on the next page or anything-
Whoa whaaaaaat where the **** did that come from?
Sarcasm aside, the obvious intent for this scene is to establish that Doppo is just trying to look cool in front of the other younger fighters, and so feigns being fine to them, and by extension, the announcer (not a reliable source in the first place, btw). But when the act is up, it's revealed he got pieced the **** up by this complete random we never hear from again. Nothing here is truly indicative he's "as strong as ever". I'll go into this in more depth down below, but Doppo is just not as strong as he once was.
Edit: Okay so quick final thing before I post, it turns out the raws don't even say he's as strong as he was before, just that he's still "going strong" lol, I really need to upload the official translation of Grappler Baki whenever I get it so we don't have these issues anymore.
I'd like to say that I was planning on handling this in my upcoming CRT to see what everyone would think; however, since we can't do that anymore, I'll just have to explain it here. But let's clear something up:
Orochi did NOT "dominate" Yujiro
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
The guidebook confirms that Doppo's "trap" stance that was meant to mess up Yujiro's ribs did nothing to him. This is consistent with the rest of the fight, as until Doppo activates Sagan, which is considered a “legendary technique” (helping to explain how it allows him to close the gap between them), Yujiro takes no visible damage and is perfectly fine, while Doppo is getting dominated. To add insult to injury, it also confirms that Yujiro wasn't serious during their fight until he activates his Demon Back, at which point the blows that were working, now at best give him a slight nosebleed when he isn't defending at all.
So Doppo, without using Sagan, is downscaling Yujiro, though is still 7-C. He also does have a quote unquote "Prime", even if it isn't completely spelled out. If this fight were the only thing to go off of, I'd honestly just say that he doesn't scale to it except with Sagan; but in the Doppo Gaiden, Kenjin, the first chapter showcases that years earlier before the series, well within his prime, he was able to break Yuichiro's Jaw with a kick after dodging his punch.
This implies that yes, even if he isn't even close to Yujiro normally, he's still a God Tier (though Yujiro is also > Yuichiro). This also lines up narratively, as Yujiro thought that it'd be a "great night", at least compared to his usual stuff, and "liked his style". With Sagan, however, I'd argue he fully scales to base Yujiro.
Now let's be real here: he was obviously nerfed heavily from his fight with Yujiro, it just makes logical sense. He was already established as being in the last year of his prime, and that was with him actively training and trying to stay in top form. Having his eye gored out, thus losing access to the one technique that put him on par with casual Yujiro, losing chunks of his body, and his heart being ******* stopped, thus killing him, might take a liiiittle bit of a toll on him and his fighting capabilities, no matter how "good of a recovery" he had. It's also obviously implied that he has gotten weaker; I'll refer back to his fight with the rando where he has to try and act like he's still in his prime to trick everyone into thinking he's still the "War God". Honestly, the fact that he did lose access to arguably his best technique would be grounds enough to justify a whole different key, but I digress.
This idea also solves the issue of Katsumi being "stronger" than him up above, as, while he may be stronger, he's only stronger than the current Doppo, not the one who faced Yujiro. Also ignore the weird history thing; not only is it more of a "This dude is the guy that's gonna push Karate forward as a martial art due to his talent", rather than something like "he's the strongest in history", I'm like 99% certain that it's a mistranslation and the wording is pretty different, so I'm currently getting it translated.
What are you referring to when you say "Doppo himself" thought it would hurt Yujiro? The only thing I can find close to that is Katsumi himself wanting to develop the technique to defeat Yujiro, but was forced to use it on Hanayama, which... just kind of shows us it isn't enough to beat Yujiro, considering how much weaker Hanayama is than him.
Not gonna touch on the actual validity of the feat until I get some stuff translated, besides it’s more of a calc member thing anyhow.
I'm not even sure what exactly your argument is? Like yeah, power creep in shonen and fighting mangas do be annoying and weird sometimes, but that's just how it is. What logical inconsistency is there?
I'm gonna stop you right there and say this is all nonsense.
For those who aren't in the know, Nik is correct in that there are many statements and scans that directly and indirectly support Tier 7 Baki. However, because all of these are against his CRT, he's attempting to dilute their validity by using some odd jumble of weird logic that, because some statements are obviously metaphors or hyperbole, most/all statements should be treated the same.
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...
...
I shouldn't have to tell you that just because some of them in the series are meant to be hype or hyperbole, it does not automatically mean literally every statement of power is null and void lmao. Of course, there are definitely some statements that align with this logic, a few of which he posts below, but again, this is just faulty reasoning, and a classic example of the Hasty Generalization Fallacy. If you wanted to establish some kind of ground rule like this, you would need dozens of individual, obviously hyperbolic and fluff statements referring to power and how strong they are that aren't just common sayings.
The truth is, I think this is all just a smokescreen to help pass this downgrade without having to deal with those pesky statements, which were oh so conveniently left out. Don't worry though, I've got your back! In fact, I compiled all of them for you and everyone else to read in full, just to see how grossly exaggerate and flowery they all are. But first, I might as well acknowledge the examples you provided.
.....Yeah, causing world-wide navigational failure would definitely be a global catastrophe, both in my mind and evidently in Itagaki's, why would you disagree? Not sure why you included that. Their fight being beyond dimensions is indeed an exaggeration, but that's just some sort of generic hype statement that's extremely easy to pick out and not meant to be taken literally. It has nothing to do with the supposed "absurd" Tier 7 statements you talked about above.1. The battle between Guevara and Oliva is described as a clash of titans that caused a global catastrophe beyond dimensions:
« 超雄対決に、 「税込」 刃牙介入ッッ!!!! 刃牙によって罵られた
オリバ・ゲバル二人の超雄達の闘いは
次元を超えたレベルに突入する!!!!! そして地球規模の異変をも
引き起こす究極バトルへと・
愛のオリバか、勇気のゲバルか 男と男の頂上決戦、ついに決着! »
« In the super-oceanic confrontation "tax included," Baki intervenes. !!!! The curse of Baki
The fight between the two superheroes Oliva Geballe
The battle between the two superheroes goes beyond dimensions. !!!!! And then - a decisive battle that will cause global cataclysms...
Oliva of love or Guevara of courage? The ultimate showdown between men finally comes to an end! »
If you've read the manga, you remember that satellites are monitoring Guevara and Oliva, and when their movement speed exceeds a certain norm, all satellites switch to them. During their fight, the satellites started tracking them, causing a worldwide navigation failure. Yes, this is what Itagaki called a catastrophe of global scale;
I don't even have to argue here, since you literally just dropped this picture without any explanation as to why it belongs in the category you described. However, if I were, I'd say something along the lines of "this is incredibly consistent with the several nuke and military statements we are given throughout the series, as shown below".1. Miyamoto Musashi's power equals that of a nuclear weapon;
Unless you mean that Musashi isn't literally an explosion, so the statement is bad, which....I'm just gonna assume that's not what you meant. Otherwise things get a whole lot funnier.
While this sounds absurd to us western folk, it's just a common hyperbole in Japanese, like how in English we say "quick as lightning" to refer to something as fast. What's your point and how does it relate to Tier 7 statements? Because last I checked, none of them are common hyperbole, and thus, not similar to this statement.2. The battle between Baki and Yujiro took place at light speeds:
「俺がこのアホ勝負を 終わらせるッ
ピクルの乱入で怒り心頭に発した刃牙は、 父の攻撃のダメージから跳ね起き、
ピクルを殴りつけるのだったッッ!!!!再び、対峙する範馬親子!!!!
攻撃を決断する0.5秒という刹那を 争う 光速の闘いを制するのは･･!?
そして、その意識のトリガーの奪い合いを打ち破るべく
勇次郎が提案する奇想天外な展開とは...!?!?
刃牙(5勇次郎、最強親子喧嘩、第2局面開幕ッッ!!!!!!
« I will end this stupid game.
Baki, enraged by Pickle's intrusion, jumps up from the damage inflicted by his father's attack and hits Pickle!!!! The Hanma father and son confront each other again!
Who will win the battle at the speed of light, where they compete for the 0.5-second moment when they decide to attack...!?
And what is the bizarre development proposed by Yujiro to break the competition for the consciousness trigger...!?!?
Baki (5 Yujiro, the strongest parent-child fight, the second phase begins!!!!!!
All this statement is is a metaphor that means that Yujiro is growing at an extremely rapid rate and giving something for the audience to grasp on its limits, which are technically infinite since he is ever-growing. Again, what does this have to do with Tier 7 statements?1. Yujiro evolves at the speed of light and as fast as the universe expands:
JP: «ユージローは 今この瞬間にも 強くなり続けて いる! 限りなく 広大な
宇宙が 光の速度で さらに膨張を 続ける ようにだ!!!»
RUS: «At this very moment, Yujiro continues to become stronger and stronger! Just as the infinite vastness of the universe continues to expand at the speed of light!»
⌯──────────────⌯
強い -- strong;
限りなく -- unlimitedly, without limit, without end, endlessly, infinitely, exceedingly;
広大な -- vast, enormous; expanded;
宇宙 -- cosmos, space, universe;
光 -- light;
速度 -- speed, pace
No, they're used by powerscalers because they lack basic reading comprehension and were never meant to be taken literally in the first place. These have no relation to the many, many actual statements that you're eluding to other than.....well, being some form of statement, I guess. But I dont have to explain how that's again, bad logic, right? Really, the only one pulling statements out of thin air is you lol.
You know, I was gonna save all of these for my upcoming CRT, but now you've forced my hand. Just kinda felt like saying that.
(Apologies for the watermark on some, only thing I could use on such short notice)
Before we begin, I'd like to establish something before diving into all of this.
Military Might = Nukes
You'd think I wouldn't have to establish this, but if I want to squash any potential counter argument, I've got to cover all of my bases.
Military Might is defined as: the strength and capabilities of a nation's armed forces, including its personnel, equipment, technology, and strategic positioning.
Nuclear Bombs can fall under either equipment or technology, whichever suits your fancy, but no matter what, its obviously traditionally included in the definition, as Nukes are a huge part of a countries arsenal, and have been for nearly a century. There is no reason for any mention of Military Might to not include such things. Additionally, you can argue that something like "army" could include this as well, but since that's far more up for interpretation, and I dont need it, I won't use it, as its only going to inevitably lead to more useless arguing. Whelps, let's go.
The Scans
Here's a compilation of all of the statements, both in and outside of the universe, mentioning Yujiro's power being equal or greater to nukes, whether directly or through the aforementioned established "military might" thing.
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou")
Says he can defeat entire armies, and most importantly, match the military might of entire countries, which we just established includes nukes.
(Source: "Baki Ultimate Book: Grappler Side")
Literally calls him a walking nuclear bomb, exclusively with his fists, furthering the narrative consistency of these statements.
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
Probably one of the most explicit, it states that Yujiro Hanma is on par with not only armies, but also all of their weapons, which would include their nuclear bombs. So even if you dont think "military might" is enough to justify it including nukes....there you go.
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
Self explanatory, once again, more statements surrounding being comparable to a nations military might, as well as being likened to an entire country in pure power.
(Source: "Baki Daikaibou: Clash of the Strongest Ever Saga")
Nations around the world needed entire nuclear arsenals to potentially counter Yujiro when he grows up. He's also called a "terrifying weapon" and "beyond comprehension", despite nuclear bombs existing. This is actually another statement in the series itself, but this just straight up says that yeah it's all true lol.
(this isn't me saying he's nuke level when he's a baby btw, its clear all of these leaders are doing this in preparation, not to counter the then infant Yujiro)
(New Grappler Baki Chapter 134)
More things reaffirming the consistency of him being stronger than armies and what not.
That's all the out of universe stuff, and that by itself is probably enough to get the point across that these statements are consistent and not just some flowery metaphorical bs or whatever, but what the hell, let’s tackle the in-universe statements, shall we?
The statement you give (which you also don't include the scan for), is this one, from Baki: Son of Ogre Chapter 192, where the Democratic Party General Secretary is talking to the prime minster of Japan, discussing Yujiro and how its impossible to defeat him.
The only thing this actually tells us is that, even if a nuclear bomb were to be able to work (implying that it probably wouldn't in the first place), they wouldn't have a safe place to test it. That's it. There is nothing that explicitly debunks literally all of the presidents and various other people's statements beyond being extremely anal and thinking that they're just guessing when they say that he's stronger.
Now, to give credit where its due, if it were a one or two off statement, I might be willing accept that it is just them saying bullshit; however, it's very evidently not, with these statements continuing for years after this supposed "debunk" by this one random guy who we never hear from again.
This is obvious, but Obama literally says that Yujiro is stronger than the US's forces; later on, Trump states he's above any of the latest missiles, showing an ICBM, further stating that his back alone "Exuded the truth of that notion". You can't get anymore literal than this.
Says that Yujiro is stronger than any country in the world, despite just mentioning Nuclear Bombs and showing more ICBMs in the previous panel.
Yet again, another statement of Yujiro's strength rivaling the military might of an entire nation.
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When a younger version of Yujiro says he wants to be "more powerful than any army", with "pure, physical, brute fighting strength", he shows more missiles. Obviously, he would later fulfill this dream.
This one implies that Yujiro Hanma is capable of facing armies equipped with all types of weapons, including missiles, just like his ancestors with the Demon Back did in their time.
That's 11, count em, 11 different statements, all corroborating that Yujiro's strength rivals or surpasses a nations entire military, including nuclear weapons. And these are just the ones I found/have access to, I'm sure there are plenty more around (I actually ordered the Old Ultimate guides so expect stuff from that sometime in the future). Are you going to tell me with a straight face that every single one of these is just some exaggerated and untrue glazing? If so, then I'm afraid we've nothing left to talk about.
I'm waiting for stuff to be translated related to the earthquake feat, as well as waiting for stuff to arrive (both things that have never been shown or checked in full), so I'd prefer if you didn't do that? Like, I got shit cooking, and I would've greatly preferred if you had simply approached me about these topics beforehand, since you know that I'm working on a verse wide revision, and we could've avoided all of this. But alas, it was never meant to be, and now we've arrived here.
However, don't get me wrong: I'm still perfectly open to discussing future revisions in the future with you, if you so wish, as it's obvious to me that you have a great deal of knowledge on the series, and I'm sure you could provide insight and help, as well as pointing out what could be wrong. If you ever do want to so, feel free to give me a holler.
Tl;dr
1. Doppo does have a "prime", and must due to him receiving injuries that prevent him from using his best technique, Sagan, as well as the narrative implications of him merely pretending to be as strong as before.
2. No one scales to Yujiro in the Maximum Tournament Saga because of this, removing any sort of inconsistency issue resulting from everyone and their mother being 7-C.
3. Attempting to chalk up all statements of power as "absurd" using 3 mixed examples of obvious hyperbole, metaphor, and an actual statement of power out of context and without explanation, while also not truly tackling the statements alluded to, is ridiculous and fallacious.
4. 7-C statements are incredibly consistent throughout the series itself and in the out of universe guidebooks meant to objectively explain and dissect the series; Yujiro's power has been established for decades now, leaving little room for doubt, and thus not subject to the claim that they're all merely hype and flowery.
Thank you for coming to my ted talk
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Lilybitdun
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Holy shit man that was a glorious read, great work. This is the most convincing post I've ever seen on this site
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******* cooked man
I’m at the opinion that we just closed down this downgrade thread and let Da3ggman do his Baki revision like he planned.
I’m at the opinion that we just closed down this downgrade thread and let Da3ggman do his Baki revision like he planned.
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Lowkey gonna steal those since one of the links got copied on accident-
I would greatly appreciate it, though I am admittedly getting both Grappler and FightingI can share to you one if you don't have it (Baki fighting side)
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Thank you
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I don't fully agree with every bit of evidence used - particularly in the nuke part of the argument because I think that rivaling a nation's military might doesn't necessarily refer to the nuke ones and using nukes on a human-sized target (particularly one with the speed and sensory abilities of Yujiro) is a lot more complicated than you'd think, but even with that there's a lot of effective evidence that completely crushes Nik's argument of a 7-C feat being unsupported.
Is there a lore reason the US doesn't just get two dozen snipers with tranq darts to take out Yujiro? Are they stupid?
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Kazuma_kuwabara
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2 mods that did not return to see the new post?
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I'm changing to neutral for now until Nik responds.
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I mean, it's said that Musashi's power is comparable to an atomic bomb, and Yujiro's is directly like an atomic bomb. Even the manga suggests that Yujiro's fist is comparable to one, and the statement compares the destructive power of one to the other, directly stating that Musashi has the same destructive power.
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Two moderators support this before the argument @Da3ggman
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Yep sorry brother. Daggman cooked with this
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As I said I don't agree with every piece of evidence. There's several valid ones too.
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Should've just known
The only time it worked was when Baki himself was involved and made him get caught off guarded by weakening him with multiple tranq darts
Otherwise lore wise it would never work, as stated how by Yujiro in his father son fight with Baki in Son Of Ogre
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After catching up I gotta say I disagre with this thread based on @Da3ggman and @Armorchompy
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Update on the staff votes:
Agree: @Therefir
Neutral: @Damage3245
Disagree: @Armorchompy, @DMUA, @Dalesean027
No mods with voting rights agree with the thread.
1 calc mod agrees with the removal of the earthquake feat, and 3 calc mods disagree.
Cmon, we don’t have to go there. I was given ample time to write my reply; it seems only fair to do the same for Nik.
Agree: @Therefir
Neutral: @Damage3245
Disagree: @Armorchompy, @DMUA, @Dalesean027
No mods with voting rights agree with the thread.
1 calc mod agrees with the removal of the earthquake feat, and 3 calc mods disagree.
Cmon, we don’t have to go there. I was given ample time to write my reply; it seems only fair to do the same for Nik.
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Dw it wasn't a malice response.
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Lilybitdun
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Give him time to respond
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Bro is pulling 12 hour shifts. Let him cook
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fair fair we should wait.
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I'm sorry but bro this response isn't helping it. I can't stop thinking of Spongebob clips to tie this back to
Yeah
Kazuma_kuwabara
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You never changed your opinion Casto, so go to the shadow realm
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I was asked to give Input, and all I can say is that I don't care about any of the other topics, but Doppo having a prime is complete BS outside of him losing Sangan, which would probably be compensated by stuff like the perfect punch he acquired during the MT or the technique he displayed in the latest chapter.
The argument that his heart stopping should do something to him is laughable considering it probably wouldn't even impact an IRL PERSON that much, let alone a super-human who can shrug off a cut off hand and whose heart was manually restarted by a literal wizard who phased his hand inside his chest. He was instantly brought to the doctor and his heart couldn't have stopped for more than 5 minutes.
The age argument is similarly a non-sequitur given the existence of Shibukawa and it literally being stated recently that Doppo doesn't show the slightest sign of aging even years after the MT
The scene of Doppo hiding his injuries means nothing because it's just him not wanting to be seen in pain FROM INJURIES HE GOT FROM THE FIGHT (it's not from "previous injuries", it's not even slightly implied, the fight was just a brawl) by his students because, as stated 2 pages after that "he wants to look cool", I have no idea how this is supposed to matter when we have previous clear statements of Doppo refusing flattery about his strength from those same students and outright saying that he's back at his normal. It's genuinely just Doppo being immature and wanting to look badass for his wife and the spectators, he doesn't even have to save face given that Katsumi is going to be the head of his school.
The whole argument about Doppo not being relative to Yujiro during the fight is complete and utter nonsense: The fight starts with Yujiro not being able to break free from Doppo's chokehold, we see Yujiro get pushed back despite blocking a kick and he's very clearly significantly effected by the 5 punches (look at his face), the phrease "this does not cause any harm to Yujiro" is simply in reference to those 5 punches not pulverizing his ribs as every spectator expected, they still clearly cause enough harm to classify as "scaling". Now we get to Sangan, Sangan isn't some Super Saiyan Transformation-type technique that amps his power, it's stated outright to simply be "precise control over one's ocular muscles", all that technique did in this fight was allow Doppo to see Yujiro's "beastly barrage" (it was Yujiro just swinging his arms too fast for Doppo to properly counterattack, it did almost no damage, just skin-deep cuts), so Yujiro getting cut up by Doppo's blocks has NOTHING to do with Sangan, nor does the fact that Yujiro is incapable of dodging Doppo's attacks (he's thinking that to himself) or the fact he's getting punched around the arena. Then he goes Demon Back and Doppo can STILL give him a nosebleed, which, given how massive of an amp demon back is (Oliva vs Baki) further solidifies that Doppo 100% scales at least relative to Yujiro in this instance.
This fight doesn't even matter in the context of the earthquake feat, Doppo would still massively outscale it via Baki's statements about him being above Yujiro (the Yujiro who performed the feat).
Let's assume we say that there's evidence to Doppo not being in his prime during the MT (there isn't), you're literally just kicking down the ball a few blocks down, Katsumi isn't simply stated to be stronger than Doppo, Doppo is confident that he's stronger than anyone which in his mind would OBVIOUSLY include Yujiro given that he was LITERALLY trained with the precise purpose of beating Yujiro and has a technique meant specifically for Yujiro. It's never implied that Katsumi isn't ready or that Doppo is wrong, and Doppo would OBVIOUSLY know how strong Yujiro was, at least at the time of their fight, so Katsumi would have to be above THAT version of Yujiro.
You wanna kick the ball down some more? Ok, right after the MT he undertook a journey to obtain "even greater strength", comes back with a physique better than Katsumi has ever seen (and Katsumi most likely trained alongside Doppo before the Yujiro fight. I don't think I need to tell you that in Baki physique conditioning is an indicator of power to some extent) and he outperforms Katsumi throughout the whole arc, with there being absolutely no indication that Katsumi was any weaker than he was during the MT.
You keep kicking down the ball, eventually it becomes comically undeniable that Doppo isn't any weaker than he was back when he fought Yujiro, there's stuff like him no-selling a serious Gokiburi dash from a Baki stronger than the one who sent Yujiro flying with the same move, beating the shit out of Rikishi who are all pretty much outright stated to be, at least in raw physicality, above Oliva and ******* MUSASHI.
I could go on, and I could also go into serious depth with cross scaling (Pickle scaling, Oliva scaling, Sukune scaling...), but I feel like the evidence at the start is so weak I don't even really need to, at the end of the day it's ALWAYS just "well, Doppo/Motobe/Katsumi struggled with X dude and Yujiro comes the next chapter and no diffs X dude, so that must mean he's weaker" or "are you telling me that Y character is supposed to be above former Yujiro?"
The argument that his heart stopping should do something to him is laughable considering it probably wouldn't even impact an IRL PERSON that much, let alone a super-human who can shrug off a cut off hand and whose heart was manually restarted by a literal wizard who phased his hand inside his chest. He was instantly brought to the doctor and his heart couldn't have stopped for more than 5 minutes.
The age argument is similarly a non-sequitur given the existence of Shibukawa and it literally being stated recently that Doppo doesn't show the slightest sign of aging even years after the MT
The scene of Doppo hiding his injuries means nothing because it's just him not wanting to be seen in pain FROM INJURIES HE GOT FROM THE FIGHT (it's not from "previous injuries", it's not even slightly implied, the fight was just a brawl) by his students because, as stated 2 pages after that "he wants to look cool", I have no idea how this is supposed to matter when we have previous clear statements of Doppo refusing flattery about his strength from those same students and outright saying that he's back at his normal. It's genuinely just Doppo being immature and wanting to look badass for his wife and the spectators, he doesn't even have to save face given that Katsumi is going to be the head of his school.
The whole argument about Doppo not being relative to Yujiro during the fight is complete and utter nonsense: The fight starts with Yujiro not being able to break free from Doppo's chokehold, we see Yujiro get pushed back despite blocking a kick and he's very clearly significantly effected by the 5 punches (look at his face), the phrease "this does not cause any harm to Yujiro" is simply in reference to those 5 punches not pulverizing his ribs as every spectator expected, they still clearly cause enough harm to classify as "scaling". Now we get to Sangan, Sangan isn't some Super Saiyan Transformation-type technique that amps his power, it's stated outright to simply be "precise control over one's ocular muscles", all that technique did in this fight was allow Doppo to see Yujiro's "beastly barrage" (it was Yujiro just swinging his arms too fast for Doppo to properly counterattack, it did almost no damage, just skin-deep cuts), so Yujiro getting cut up by Doppo's blocks has NOTHING to do with Sangan, nor does the fact that Yujiro is incapable of dodging Doppo's attacks (he's thinking that to himself) or the fact he's getting punched around the arena. Then he goes Demon Back and Doppo can STILL give him a nosebleed, which, given how massive of an amp demon back is (Oliva vs Baki) further solidifies that Doppo 100% scales at least relative to Yujiro in this instance.
This fight doesn't even matter in the context of the earthquake feat, Doppo would still massively outscale it via Baki's statements about him being above Yujiro (the Yujiro who performed the feat).
Let's assume we say that there's evidence to Doppo not being in his prime during the MT (there isn't), you're literally just kicking down the ball a few blocks down, Katsumi isn't simply stated to be stronger than Doppo, Doppo is confident that he's stronger than anyone which in his mind would OBVIOUSLY include Yujiro given that he was LITERALLY trained with the precise purpose of beating Yujiro and has a technique meant specifically for Yujiro. It's never implied that Katsumi isn't ready or that Doppo is wrong, and Doppo would OBVIOUSLY know how strong Yujiro was, at least at the time of their fight, so Katsumi would have to be above THAT version of Yujiro.
You wanna kick the ball down some more? Ok, right after the MT he undertook a journey to obtain "even greater strength", comes back with a physique better than Katsumi has ever seen (and Katsumi most likely trained alongside Doppo before the Yujiro fight. I don't think I need to tell you that in Baki physique conditioning is an indicator of power to some extent) and he outperforms Katsumi throughout the whole arc, with there being absolutely no indication that Katsumi was any weaker than he was during the MT.
You keep kicking down the ball, eventually it becomes comically undeniable that Doppo isn't any weaker than he was back when he fought Yujiro, there's stuff like him no-selling a serious Gokiburi dash from a Baki stronger than the one who sent Yujiro flying with the same move, beating the shit out of Rikishi who are all pretty much outright stated to be, at least in raw physicality, above Oliva and ******* MUSASHI.
I could go on, and I could also go into serious depth with cross scaling (Pickle scaling, Oliva scaling, Sukune scaling...), but I feel like the evidence at the start is so weak I don't even really need to, at the end of the day it's ALWAYS just "well, Doppo/Motobe/Katsumi struggled with X dude and Yujiro comes the next chapter and no diffs X dude, so that must mean he's weaker" or "are you telling me that Y character is supposed to be above former Yujiro?"
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In case anyone cares about my take in regards to the cast scaling to the earthquake feat, I don't believe in outliers as a concept so I'm perfectly fine with the whole cast being town level, especially in light of Pickle and Musashi, to which all the cast ends up scaling to some extent.
I think unless you legitimately want to nerf the verse to wall level it makes no sense to bring up instances of the cast being harmed by bullets or stuff like that
I think unless you legitimately want to nerf the verse to wall level it makes no sense to bring up instances of the cast being harmed by bullets or stuff like that
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