Grappler Baki Downgrade... Again

[NikHelton]

The "Prime Doppo" thing might be the most astroturfed argument I've ever seen in powerscaling, like it's LAUGHABLE how much evidence against it there is and how much it wouldn't matter even if it was correct

Thank you, you've given me renewed motivation to continue this thread

 

[NikHelton]

I'll try to reply in 7 hours, after work.

 

[Da3ggman]

I was asked to give Input, and all I can say is that I don't care about any of the other topics, but Doppo having a prime is complete BS outside of him losing Sangan, which would probably be compensated by stuff like the perfect punch he acquired during the MT or the technique he displayed in the latest chapter.

Prove that the one technique that allowed him to dominate Yujiro in their fight was compensated by his “perfected punch”. Otherwise, it’s pure headcanon that’s unsupported by the evidence.

And don’t start talking about how him having a prime is also “headcanon” because it’s never explicitly stated, there’s mountains of evidence that supports that interpretations, while you have brought nothing but “yeah it probably made up for having his eye gored out of his skull lol”.

The argument that his heart stopping should do something to him is laughable considering it probably wouldn't even impact an IRL PERSON that much, let alone a super-human who can shrug off a cut off hand and whose heart was manually restarted by a literal wizard who phased his hand inside his chest. He was instantly brought to the doctor and his heart couldn't have stopped for more than 5 minutes.

You could’ve at least bothered to look up how long it takes before the odds of serious brain and bodily damage increases significantly, which just so happens to be 4 minutes. In fact, it’s literally known as the “4 minute window”. I don’t care if you’re superhuman, characters in Baki still need their heart to live and oxygen in their brain, which as you already brought up, he could’ve realistically been without for 5 minutes. This is also without mentioning the severe blood loss and injury he received in the fight itself, which would only decrease that time limit further. Therefore, it is perfectly realistic for him to have suffered some sort of nerf from it.

The age argument is similarly a non-sequitur given the existence of Shibukawa and it literally being stated recently that Doppo doesn't show the slightest sign of aging even years after the MT

We’re not talking about anything beyond MT, there’s reasons that later parts of the series have Doppo as stronger, as he did stuff to get stronger from that point on; we’re talking about MT Doppo, and MT Doppo has zero evidence of being as strong as he was. Hell, you know this, as you show it later below.

The scene of Doppo hiding his injuries means nothing because it's just him not wanting to be seen in pain FROM INJURIES HE GOT FROM THE FIGHT (it's not from "previous injuries", it's not even slightly implied, the fight was just a brawl) by his students because, as stated 2 pages after that "he wants to look cool", I have no idea how this is supposed to matter when we have previous clear statements of Doppo refusing flattery about his strength from those same students and outright saying that he's back at his normal. It's genuinely just Doppo being immature and wanting to look badass for his wife and the spectators, he doesn't even have to save face given that Katsumi is going to be the head of his school.

I never stated that he was talking about previous injuries, what? I’m merely stating btw obvious fact that he was clearly ****** up by his fight, and acts cool to trick the audience, which you concede to. Thus, any sort of statements by people like the announcer of him being “as strong as ever” are irrelevant (also that’s a mistranslation so it doesn’t even matter anyway, it doesn’t help your argument in the slightest).

The whole argument about Doppo not being relative to Yujiro during the fight is complete and utter nonsense: The fight starts with Yujiro not being able to break free from Doppo's chokehold, we see Yujiro get pushed back despite blocking a kick and he's very clearly significantly effected by the 5 punches (look at his face), the phrease "this does not cause any harm to Yujiro" is simply in reference to those 5 punches not pulverizing his ribs as every spectator expected, they still clearly cause enough harm to classify as "scaling". Now we get to Sangan, Sangan isn't some Super Saiyan Transformation-type technique that amps his power, it's stated outright to simply be "precise control over one's ocular muscles", all that technique did in this fight was allow Doppo to see Yujiro's "beastly barrage" (it was Yujiro just swinging his arms too fast for Doppo to properly counterattack, it did almost no damage, just skin-deep cuts), so Yujiro getting cut up by Doppo's blocks has NOTHING to do with Sangan, nor does the fact that Yujiro is incapable of dodging Doppo's attacks (he's thinking that to himself) or the fact he's getting punched around the arena. Then he goes Demon Back and Doppo can STILL give him a nosebleed, which, given how massive of an amp demon back is (Oliva vs Baki) further solidifies that Doppo 100% scales at least relative to Yujiro in this instance.

Scan doesn’t work. Regardless, we can visibly see the difference between their injuries after the drawn out fight; Yujiro is standing just fine, without a care in the world, undamaged (even after being hit by several of Doppos moves), while Doppo is struggling and bleeding. There’s a clear difference in their abilities without Sagan to make up for it.

This fight doesn't even matter in the context of the earthquake feat, Doppo would still massively outscale it via Baki's statements about him being above Yujiro (the Yujiro who performed the feat).

Sure, I don’t have any doubts that he does upscale the feat by technicality of Yujiro getting stronger, so downscaling him 3 years after performing the feat would still probably be an upscale to the feat itself. However, I’m not arguing that Doppo doesn’t scale to 7-C in his prime, so your mostly fighting a ghost on this point.

Let's assume we say that there's evidence to Doppo not being in his prime during the MT (there isn't)

Evidently, nearly everyone in the thread, including mods familiar with the series, other than you and Nik, disagree. Not saying that because people agree with me I’m right, but I think it’s a bit dismissive to just throw all of the scans and translations I put together away as there being “no evidence”, especially when the main argument that he is in his prime relies on a mistranslation.

you're literally just kicking down the ball a few blocks down, Katsumi isn't simply stated to be stronger than Doppo, Doppo is confident that he's stronger than anyone which in his mind would OBVIOUSLY include Yujiro given that he was LITERALLY trained with the precise purpose of beating Yujiro and has a technique meant specifically for Yujiro.

He’s talking in the context of him fighting anyone in the arena, not anyone in general. Otherwise, he’d say “Even Yujiro” instead of “Even Baki” as a sort of example of how confident he is using a strong opponent, especially considering how Yujiro is still >>>>>>> Baki in this saga.

It's never implied that Katsumi isn't ready or that Doppo is wrong, and Doppo would OBVIOUSLY know how strong Yujiro was, at least at the time of their fight, so Katsumi would have to be above THAT version of Yujiro.

He never stated anything about him fighting Yujiro.

You wanna kick the ball down some more? Ok, right after the MT he undertook a journey to obtain "even greater strength", comes back with a physique better than Katsumi has ever seen (and Katsumi most likely trained alongside Doppo before the Yujiro fight. I don't think I need to tell you that in Baki physique conditioning is an indicator of power to some extent)

I’m actually totally fine with Post-MT Doppo/SoO being 7-C again, as, like you said, he specifically went on a journey to get stronger and has also been stated to have completely started his training from scratch, thus there is an explanation for why he could’ve gotten that strength.

However, to my knowledge, there exist no such statements for the time between his Yujiro fight and the MT Tournament. As such, there is no reason to assume, given him struggling with characters that are portrayed and shown to be far weaker than Yujiro, to be as strong as he was before.

and he outperforms Katsumi throughout the whole arc, with there being absolutely no indication that Katsumi was any weaker than he was during the MT.

I’m not sure what the argument is here? Yeah, Doppo becomes > Katsumi (until the latter gets the Joint shit), but I’m not sure what that has to do with MT Doppo, especially given you just provided evidence that he got stronger after the tournament.

You keep kicking down the ball, eventually it becomes comically undeniable that Doppo isn't any weaker than he was back when he fought Yujiro, there's stuff like him no-selling a serious Gokiburi dash from a Baki stronger

than the one who sent Yujiro flying with the same move, beating the shit out of Rikishi who are all pretty much outright stated to be, at least in raw physicality, above Oliva and ******* MUSASHI.

As I’ve said before, after the MT, we have several statements of Doppo training to get stronger, so I’m fine if he scales to 7-C. However, there exists NO EVIDENCE that he’s as strong as he was in the MT Tournament specially. You continuing to bring up scaling later than that is irrelevant.

I could go on, and I could also go into serious depth with cross scaling (Pickle scaling, Oliva scaling, Sukune scaling...), but I feel like the evidence at the start is so weak I don't even really need to, at the end of the day it's ALWAYS just "well, Doppo/Motobe/Katsumi struggled with X dude and Yujiro comes the next chapter and no diffs X dude, so that must mean he's weaker" or "are you telling me that Y character is supposed to be above former Yujiro?"

Then I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this point, unfortunately.

Btw, to clear up any misinformation regarding where I think Doppo should scale throughout the parts, here:

Prime Doppo (7-C; able to endure some hits and at least fight with Yujiro, who is >>>Earthquake) -> MT Doppo (8-C; visibly is injured by fodder and has no statements saying he is as strong as he was before) -> New Grappler Doppo (>>>8-C; trained and got stronger, but still no reliable 7-C scaling) -> SoO Doppo (7-C; comparable or superior to Retsu, who could deal extremely minor damage to Pickle, who’s >>> Earthquake) -> Dou Doppo (>>>7-C; could fight with Musashi, who is >>>>>>>Earthquake by this point).

Really the only thing I’m asking is an actual statement that MT Doppo, not SoO or Dou or anything, MT Doppo is as strong as he was in his prime. One that isn’t a mistranslation or out of context, of course.

The "Prime Doppo" thing might be the most astroturfed argument I've ever seen in powerscaling, like it's LAUGHABLE how much evidence against it there is and how much it wouldn't matter even if it was correct

Well geez, I thought it was pretty good….No need to get rude about it.

In case anyone cares about my take in regards to the cast scaling to the earthquake feat, I don't believe in outliers as a concept so I'm perfectly fine with the whole cast being town level, especially in light of Pickle and Musashi, to which all the cast ends up scaling to some extent.
I think unless you legitimately want to nerf the verse to wall level it makes no sense to bring up instances of the cast being harmed by bullets or stuff like that

This is wholeheartedly agree with, though (Baki scaling wise, not that outliers don’t exist). I assume you agree that the 7-C statements are fine to use?

 

[Twellas]

Prove that the one technique that allowed him to dominate Yujiro in their fight was compensated by his “perfected punch”. Otherwise, it’s pure headcanon that’s unsupported by the evidence.

I don't really need to because it doesn't matter, Sangan isn't a stat amp so it's irrelevant to the discussion, it becomes a matter of "which technique is better?" which is completely subjective, which is why I brought it up like that

You could’ve at least bothered to look up how long it takes before the odds of serious brain and bodily damage increases significantly, which just so happens to be 4 minutes. In fact, it’s literally known as the “4 minute window”. I don’t care if you’re superhuman, characters in Baki still need their heart to live and oxygen in their brain, which as you already brought up, he could’ve realistically been without for 5 minutes. This is also without mentioning the severe blood loss and injury he received in the fight itself, which would only decrease that time limit further. Therefore, it is perfectly realistic for him to have suffered some sort of nerf from it.

Yeah sure, Doppo "I can retract my balls into my stomach and close my arteries on command, I can fight with 8 lacerations, 26 contusions, 4 partial fractures, 8 complete fractures [both forearms], an active brain hemorrhage and ruptured eardrums, I can fight just fine without my hand by beating you with my not-bleeding [because I can just close my brachial artery manually] stump and actually I'm glad I lost my hand because my training consists in constantly breaking every single one of my fingers, which I then repair by beating on them some more" Orochi would SURELY not have an higher resistence to blood loss than the average human.

Listen, I might take these statements into account if it was a matter of the MT taking place RIGHT after this, but he had months of active rehabilitation, why do we have to pretend that an injury like that isn't completely mundane by Baki standards?

We’re not talking about anything beyond MT, there’s reasons that later parts of the series have Doppo as stronger, as he did stuff to get stronger from that point on; we’re talking about MT Doppo, and MT Doppo has zero evidence of being as strong as he was. Hell, you know this, as you show it later below.

Follow me now: If a Doppo that's like 10 years older than MT Doppo "doesn't show the slightest sign of aging", why would MT Doppo?
I don't need to show you evidence he IS as strong as he was, you gotta show me evidence he ISN'T, because he went through a rehabilitation he himself says "was fine" and rehabilitations, by definition, are meant to bring you back to how you were before.

I never stated that he was talking about previous injuries, what? I’m merely stating btw obvious fact that he was clearly ****** up by his fight, and acts cool to trick the audience, which you concede to. Thus, any sort of statements by people like the announcer of him being “as strong as ever” are irrelevant (also that’s a mistranslation so it doesn’t even matter anyway, it doesn’t help your argument in the slightest).

I misread that about previous injuries, my bad. Your conclusion makes no sense in light of the fact we have statements from Doppo himself about his rehabilitation going well, which means he's back to normal. My point was that the scene wasn't about Doppo who's "going out of his way to pretend that he's still as strong as before" thus making his previous statements void.
Also, have you considered that maybe Richard Filth is just THAT strong? Is it THAT hard to believe?

Scan doesn’t work. Regardless, we can visibly see the difference between their injuries after the drawn out fight; Yujiro is standing just fine, without a care in the world, undamaged (even after being hit by several of Doppos moves), while Doppo is struggling and bleeding. There’s a clear difference in their abilities without Sagan to make up for it.

I can't open the link for some reason, I tried to fix mine, see if you can view it. You're probably just showing Doppo having skin-deep cuts from Yujiro's all out barrage (his cuts are not there basically 3 pages after that), which are 1 to 1 comparable to the damage Doppo does to Yujiro by blocking his attacks. As I already explained, Sangan is not a stat amp, you can't use it as a cop out to say "well he's only relative when using Sangan", all Sangan is is Doppo being able to look in two separate directions at the same time, THAT'S IT, it doesn't make his blocks more effective or his attacks faster or more powerful.

Evidently, nearly everyone in the thread, including mods familiar with the series, other than you and Nik, disagree. Not saying that because people agree with me I’m right, but I think it’s a bit dismissive to just throw all of the scans and translations I put together away as there being “no evidence”, especially when the main argument that he is in his prime relies on a mistranslation.

I had never seen that scan used to defend Doppo still being in his prime, it's a good scan that supports it, don't get me wrong, but the argument doesn't hinge on that.

Let's start from the idea that there is no positive evidence of Doppo getting weaker, none. There's NO statement that goes "Doppo got weaker" or anything of that sort, the only thing that would imply it is his heart stopping for like, 10 pages, that's it. In any other verse I'd be willing to entertain that, but this is a verse that has Jack Hanma in it.
The only statement I could see supporting this is him saying "if I want to beat the strongest creature alive, this is nothing", but this is a statement given with the context of Katsumi existing and being above him in everything and Yujiro himself having DB and improving on top of that, so it doesn't disprove the idea of him being back to normal.

On the other hand, we have the fact that Doppo went through a several month-long rehabilitation which was successful according to his own estimation and that of his students who hard-spar him EVERY DAY and refers to his performance as "normal level". On top of this there's evidence which you seem to agree to, of Doppo being above his prime pretty much right after the MT after a training arc that lasted roughly the same amount of time that his rehab lasted.

Why would he be weaker than before, exactly?

He never stated anything about him fighting Yujiro.

"The strongest creature alive! You have to challenge the strongest and beat him in order to be called the strongest yourself. And that is what I have been preparing Katsumi for".
Any mention of Katsumi alongside the concept of "strongest" comes with the context of Doppo training him PRECISELY to "challenge and beat" the "strongest creature alive", AKA:Yujiro.

As I said, Doppo's "prime" doesn't matter, the whole MT cast still ends up scaling to "Prime Doppo" one way or another, including MT Doppo himself (Hanayama-Gallen-Jack-Shibukawa-Doppo) lol.

Well geez, I thought it was pretty good….No need to get rude about it.

Let's be honest with ourselves right now: the only reason the Prime Doppo argument exists and has any support at all in the community is so that the earthquake feat applies to fewer people and isn't removed from the scaling due to being an "outlier", I know it and you know it.

TL;DR:
Evidence that Doppo got weaker: His heart stopped and MAYBE (never even remotely implied) it stopped for long enough that it would have done permanent damage to a normal real life human, he says that he's "maybe" in the last year of his prime before the Yujiro fight, after this Doppo goes on to have pitched fights with people who don't look all that strong.
Evidence that Doppo DIDN'T get weaker: He's never stated to have become weaker, his heart was restarted by the best doctor in the world who's pretty much a wizard that considers "reviving a body that has been decimated" to "not be particularly difficult to accomplish" with his bare hands and revived him (after performing anesthesia on him by using a single hair as an acupunture pin) so well that Doppo could breathe, talk and move on his own RIGHT AFTER being revived, Doppo himself has shown superhuman levels of endurance to injuries before and after this fact, Doppo went through a successful rehabilitation after the fact, he ends up somewhat scaling to a person who by his own account would be above his prime self (Katsumi), a Doppo who's several years older than his MT self is stated to "not show the slightest sign of aging, Doppo went on to objectively surpass his prime several times after the MT

 

[Twellas]

I assume you agree that the 7-C statements are fine to use?

ye sure

 

[Da3ggman]

I don't really need to because it doesn't matter, Sangan isn't a stat amp so it's irrelevant to the discussion, it becomes a matter of "which technique is better?" which is completely subjective, which is why I brought it up like that

Yeah sure, Doppo "I can retract my balls into my stomach and close my arteries on command, I can fight with 8 lacerations, 26 contusions, 4 partial fractures, 8 complete fractures [both forearms], an active brain hemorrhage and ruptured eardrums, I can fight just fine without my hand by beating you with my not-bleeding [because I can just close my brachial artery manually] stump and actually I'm glad I lost my hand because my training consists in constantly breaking every single one of my fingers, which I then repair by beating on them some more" Orochi would SURELY not have an higher resistence to blood loss than the average human.

Listen, I might take these statements into account if it was a matter of the MT taking place RIGHT after this, but he had months of active rehabilitation, why do we have to pretend that an injury like that isn't completely mundane by Baki standards?

Follow me now: If a Doppo that's like 10 years older than MT Doppo "doesn't show the slightest sign of aging", why would MT Doppo?
I don't need to show you evidence he IS as strong as he was, you gotta show me evidence he ISN'T, because he went through a rehabilitation he himself says "was fine" and rehabilitations, by definition, are meant to bring you back to how you were before.

I misread that about previous injuries, my bad. Your conclusion makes no sense in light of the fact we have statements from Doppo himself about his rehabilitation going well, which means he's back to normal. My point was that the scene wasn't about Doppo who's "going out of his way to pretend that he's still as strong as before" thus making his previous statements void.
Also, have you considered that maybe Richard Filth is just THAT strong? Is it THAT hard to believe?

I can't open the link for some reason, I tried to fix mine, see if you can view it. You're probably just showing Doppo having skin-deep cuts from Yujiro's all out barrage (his cuts are not there basically 3 pages after that), which are 1 to 1 comparable to the damage Doppo does to Yujiro by blocking his attacks. As I already explained, Sangan is not a stat amp, you can't use it as a cop out to say "well he's only relative when using Sangan", all Sangan is is Doppo being able to look in two separate directions at the same time, THAT'S IT, it doesn't make his blocks more effective or his attacks faster or more powerful.

I had never seen that scan used to defend Doppo still being in his prime, it's a good scan that supports it, don't get me wrong, but the argument doesn't hinge on that.

Let's start from the idea that there is no positive evidence of Doppo getting weaker, none. There's NO statement that goes "Doppo got weaker" or anything of that sort, the only thing that would imply it is his heart stopping for like, 10 pages, that's it. In any other verse I'd be willing to entertain that, but this is a verse that has Jack Hanma in it.
The only statement I could see supporting this is him saying "if I want to beat the strongest creature alive, this is nothing", but this is a statement given with the context of Katsumi existing and being above him in everything and Yujiro himself having DB and improving on top of that, so it doesn't disprove the idea of him being back to normal.

On the other hand, we have the fact that Doppo went through a several month-long rehabilitation which was successful according to his own estimation and that of his students who hard-spar him EVERY DAY and refers to his performance as "normal level". On top of this there's evidence which you seem to agree to, of Doppo being above his prime pretty much right after the MT after a training arc that lasted roughly the same amount of time that his rehab lasted.

Why would he be weaker than before, exactly?

"The strongest creature alive! You have to challenge the strongest and beat him in order to be called the strongest yourself. And that is what I have been preparing Katsumi for".
Any mention of Katsumi alongside the concept of "strongest" comes with the context of Doppo training him PRECISELY to "challenge and beat" the "strongest creature alive", AKA:Yujiro.

As I said, Doppo's "prime" doesn't matter, the whole MT cast still ends up scaling to "Prime Doppo" one way or another, including MT Doppo himself (Hanayama-Gallen-Jack-Shibukawa-Doppo) lol.

Let's be honest with ourselves right now: the only reason the Prime Doppo argument exists and has any support at all in the community is so that the earthquake feat applies to fewer people and isn't removed from the scaling due to being an "outlier", I know it and you know it.

TL;DR:
Evidence that Doppo got weaker: His heart stopped and MAYBE (never even remotely implied) it stopped for long enough that it would have done permanent damage to a normal real life human, he says that he's "maybe" in the last year of his prime before the Yujiro fight, after this Doppo goes on to have pitched fights with people who don't look all that strong.
Evidence that Doppo DIDN'T get weaker: He's never stated to have become weaker, his heart was restarted by the best doctor in the world who's pretty much a wizard that considers "reviving a body that has been decimated" to "not be particularly difficult to accomplish" with his bare hands and revived him (after performing anesthesia on him by using a single hair as an acupunture pin) so well that Doppo could breathe, talk and move on his own RIGHT AFTER being revived, Doppo himself has shown superhuman levels of endurance to injuries before and after this fact, Doppo went through a successful rehabilitation after the fact, he ends up somewhat scaling to a person who by his own account would be above his prime self (Katsumi), a Doppo who's several years older than his MT self is stated to "not show the slightest sign of aging, Doppo went on to objectively surpass his prime several times after the MT

I’m working on a response btw, but just a heads up, I’m really starting to realize how shoddy the translations actually are for the first series, as multiple of the pieces of evidence we’ve both been using has been completely different when looking at the raws, and that’s been leading us to wrong conclusions. So, it’ll take me more time to fully get everything translated before dropping the response, unfortunately.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

I’m working on a response btw, but just a heads up, I’m really starting to realize how shoddy the translations actually are for the first series, as multiple of the pieces of evidence we’ve both been using has been completely different when looking at the raws, and that’s been leading us to wrong conclusions. So, it’ll take me more time to fully get everything translated before dropping the response, unfortunately.

I really do think we need a thread that just bans wild fang translations and just go for the raw/new translations coming out

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The whole argument about Doppo not being relative to Yujiro during the fight is complete and utter nonsense: The fight starts with Yujiro not being able to break free from Doppo's chokehold, we see Yujiro get pushed back despite blocking a kick and he's very clearly significantly effected by the 5 punches (look at his face), the phrease "this does not cause any harm to Yujiro" is simply in reference to those 5 punches not pulverizing his ribs as every spectator expected, they still clearly cause enough harm to classify as "scaling". Now we get to Sangan, Sangan isn't some Super Saiyan Transformation-type technique that amps his power, it's stated outright to simply be "precise control over one's ocular muscles", all that technique did in this fight was allow Doppo to see Yujiro's "beastly barrage" (it was Yujiro just swinging his arms too fast for Doppo to properly counterattack, it did almost no damage, just skin-deep cuts), so Yujiro getting cut up by Doppo's blocks has NOTHING to do with Sangan, nor does the fact that Yujiro is incapable of dodging Doppo's attacks (he's thinking that to himself) or the fact he's getting punched around the arena. Then he goes Demon Back and Doppo can STILL give him a nosebleed, which, given how massive of an amp demon back is (Oliva vs Baki) further solidifies that Doppo 100% scales at least relative to Yujiro in this instance.
This fight doesn't even matter in the context of the earthquake feat, Doppo would still massively outscale it via Baki's statements about him being above Yujiro (the Yujiro who performed the feat).

Making someone get a nose bleed /=/ overpowering one's actual durability, it doesn't at all make doppo scale to Yujiro... Which I've already explained why

This is even an accepted thing inverse... Baki made Yujiro bleed multiple times but it still didn't affect him in the end, the actual manga itself fully debunks the notion of Doppo scaling to Yujiro (its even a similar off guarded Yuijro not actually defending back) (after that instance is where it's shown Baki actually start affecting him)

You're assumption <<< the Manga

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay, I don't agree with Twellas' conclusion (especially the "outliers don't exist" bit) but there's definitely a degree of relativity going on if you make someone bleed. They can tank it and not need to worry too bad (what's being misinterpreted as "I suffered absolutely zero damage" here is really "I didn't suffer any relevant damage" which is similar in terms of fight dynamics but not scaling) about getting hurt but if you break someone's nose you're probably not millions of times weaker than them.

 

[Twellas]

I’m working on a response btw, but just a heads up, I’m really starting to realize how shoddy the translations actually are for the first series, as multiple of the pieces of evidence we’ve both been using has been completely different when looking at the raws, and that’s been leading us to wrong conclusions. So, it’ll take me more time to fully get everything translated before dropping the response, unfortunately.

For me, I checked the rehabilitation statement and it's correct, same for the Katsumi statement, although slightly different it still clearly says that to Doppo Katsumi is "the strongest on earth" and the lore for the Mach punch being an anti-Yujiro technique makes it quite clear that Doppo's stataments about Katsumi are meant to include Yujiro. I'm also 90% sure grappler Baki wasn't translated by Wild fang for the most part, at least the version I read

This is even an accepted thing inverse... Baki made Yujiro bleed multiple times but it still didn't affect him in the end, the actual manga itself fully debunks the notion of Doppo scaling to Yujiro (its even a similar off guarded Yuijro not actually defending back) (after that instance is where it's shown Baki actually start affecting him)

You're assumption <<< the Manga

Yeah sure, punching a dude and having him look like this with a punch, while also drawing blood just from blocking attacks and having him think "i can't dodge his attacks" while having a panicked look surely isn't meant to display relativity between the two. Y'all are so ******* goofy man

And as I said, Doppo being relative to Yujiro during this fight doesn't matter at all to the earthquake feat because Doppo massively upscales from the Yujiro who performed that feat off of Baki's statement. Doppo not being relative to Yujiro in this fight wouldn't mean that Doppo doesn't scale to the earthquake, there's literally no point in even discussing this topic

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

goofy

 

[Twellas]

AH HYUK

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Doppo massively upscales from the Yujiro who performed that feat off of Baki's statement.

stop

... Using trash translations, notice how doppo didn't defeat Yujiro after this statements..?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

stop

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Even @Da3ggman said that Doppo would scale to the 7-C value in his main comment, so idk what is the point to argue over it.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

@Da3ggman

 

[Da3ggman]

For me, I checked the rehabilitation statement and it's correct, same for the Katsumi statement, although slightly different it still clearly says that to Doppo Katsumi is "the strongest on earth" and the lore for the Mach punch being an anti-Yujiro technique makes it quite clear that Doppo's stataments about Katsumi are meant to include Yujiro.

Don’t use MTL, especially just raw MTL like that. I’m getting them translated by actual people, so that we can be 100% sure in its accuracy.

Although, even using your MTL, it still disproves your point. He’s literally talking about how IF you want to be the strongest on earth, you have to keep fighting and remain undefeated (“The Strongest on Earth is a title only granted to those who keep fighting and keep winning”), which is why he wants to send Katsumi into the arena, so that he can challenged and tested, not that Katsumi is already the strongest in the world or something. It has nothing to do with Yujiro, despite the similar title. That also explains why he says “Even Baki”, instead of “Even Yujiro”, as I said before, as he’s only taking into consideration the participants of the tournament.

This differs greatly from the Spiny Back translation, which says that you have to “challenge the strongest and best him in order to be called the strongest”. Can you see why I’m wanting to go the extra mile?

Also the rehab line is definitely slightly different in a way that matters, that I know for sure, I’m just waiting on the ok from the translator to send it.

I'm also 90% sure grappler Baki wasn't translated by Wild fang for the most part, at least the version I read

True, this is Spiny Back, I believe, and while they’re are fine for a general sense of what a translation is, when getting down to the minutia of statements, they tend to come up short and lead to mistakes in interpretations like the one above.

Yeah sure, punching a dude and having him look like this with a punch, while also drawing blood just from blocking attacks and having him think "i can't dodge his attacks" while having a panicked look surely isn't meant to display relativity between the two. Y'all are so ******* goofy man

Could we refrain from the insults? I’d rather this be a civil discussion.

Even @Da3ggman said that Doppo would scale to the 7-C value in his main comment, so idk what is the point to argue over it.

True, it’s mostly just arguing over nothing. I’ll refrain from commenting on whether or not Doppo fully scales to base Yujiro or not from now on and just focus on the prime Doppo stuff.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

I really think everything in the threads have already been answered by @Da3ggman response and the only thing that’s up for contention right now is the Doppo stuff which is pretty much a non-issue.

Should we make another thread of addressing it or still stick with this one?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

We can transform this thread in a good meme material museum

 

[NikHelton]

Sorry, I get home from work so late and sit down at the computer, so I don't have the energy to write a proper response.

I'll try to do that soon, but I'll say right away that this won't be a reply to @Da3ggman, but rather a presentation of my arguments, where I'll support the removal of the Orochi key, why 7-C is an outlier, and why the feat doesn't work. After that, I'll reach out to the mods again so they can review both of our texts and draw their own conclusions. Considering Da3ggman is preparing a major revision thread, prolonging this discussion doesn't make sense.

I don't care whether the entire verse scales to 7-C or the feat is removed. The verse has major balance issues either way.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

OK, but if you’re gonna post your arguments again, without responding to @Da3ggman who pretty much responded and countered your points I don’t see the reason why this thread has to be open.

Again, most of the mods are already disagree with this downgrade, and if you’re just gonna post the same arguments again, nothing’s gonna change.

 

[NikHelton]

OK, but if you’re gonna post your arguments again, without responding to @Da3ggman who pretty much responded and countered your points I don’t see the reason why this thread has to be open.

Again, most of the mods are already disagree with this downgrade, and if you’re just gonna post the same arguments again, nothing’s gonna change.

Let the administrators decide this, not you

 

[Twellas]

Don’t use MTL, especially just raw MTL like that. I’m getting them translated by actual people, so that we can be 100% sure in its accuracy

what's an "MTL"? I just found the raw, picked up the text with google lens, double checked it and plugged it into a translator, seems pretty standard to me to at least give me an idea of what's being said just to know I'm not talking out of my ass

Although, even using your MTL, it still disproves your point. He’s literally talking about how IF you want to be the strongest on earth, you have to keep fighting and remain undefeated (“The Strongest on Earth is a title only granted to those who keep fighting and keep winning”), which is why he wants to send Katsumi into the arena, so that he can challenged and tested, not that Katsumi is already the strongest in the world or something. It has nothing to do with Yujiro, despite the similar title. That also explains why he says “Even Baki”, instead of “Even Yujiro”, as I said before, as he’s only taking into consideration the participants of the tournament.

As I said, the translation is different, it's just not as blatant but clearly conveys the same point. Let's start by saying that Doppo is very clearly NOT sending Katsumi to the MT for him to "become the strongest", he believes he's already the strongest and the MT is just a way to show everyone else ("doesn't matter who you put him up against").
I can accept the idea that "the strongest on earth" when referred to the MT wouldn't include Yujiro when people like Tokugawa or other contestants say it, but it literally makes NO SENSE for Doppo to not include Yujiro in the statement RIGHT AFTER having fought him, ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that, as I said, Katsumi has a move SPECIFICALLY meant for Yujiro most likely developed alongside Doppo.
"Even Baki" is just due to the fact that Baki is the strongest dude Tokugawa has access to, at this point in the Baki storyline Tokugawa doesn't have Yujiro on speed dial like he does now so there would literally be no point in him saying "even Yujiro" in this context.

True, this is Spiny Back, I believe, and while they’re are fine for a general sense of what a translation is, when getting down to the minutia of statements, they tend to come up short and lead to mistakes in interpretations like the one above.

I don't think it's a good idea to basically have to re-translate every single statement before we can use it, it's not a Wildfang situation here, at most we're missing minutiae. If we want to go with the route of re-translating it (and checking some of the stuff, I get it) I think it'd have to be a wiki-wide, verse-wide thing and not just us translating single statements back and forth.

I don't think the translations would even matter here because as I said, there isn't a single piece of actual positive evidence for Doppo becoming weaker, so similarly there wouldn't need to be positive proof of him not having become weaker.

 

[Arkenis]

what's an "MTL"? I just found the raw, picked up the text with google lens, double checked it and plugged it into a translator, seems pretty standard to me to at least give me an idea of what's being said just to know I'm not talking out of my ass

Machine translation

 

[RigelBR7]

Lol

 

[Da3ggman]

Hello, everyone! Hope you all had a lovely Christmas with your friends and family. I've finally come back to the thread after a few days, and I have a proposition for you all.

There is one topic that I wish to delve further into, and that's Prime Doppo. Although I wanted to simply address it in this thread, the translations I need are taking longer than expected, and I'm wanting to investigate this further within the older guide books and other related source material. So, instead of simply having this CRT on hold until I get done with all of that, I propose that we simply....close the thread.

Not to be rude to Nik or anything, but it is glaringly obvious that the thread has been overwhelmingly rejected by nearly everyone, staff and regular user alike, on nearly all fronts. The ratio of staff with votings rights is 0-3, and 1-3 for calc members respectfully, more than enough to have the thread be considered officially rejected. Nik has also acknowledged that whatever message he may eventually send, will not be a response or debate of my debunk. I was all for giving him ample time to work on it, but I also want to get a move on from this so I can get back to my verse wise revisions. Namely ones that won't require me weeks to months of translating and researching. And, within those revisions, I will fully tackle the issue of Prime Doppo in its entirety, hopefully being able to prove without a shadow of a doubt of its legitimacy.

To me, this seems like the healthiest and most efficient way of fixing the verse and its place on the site. But if people want to keep this going, I'm fine with that as well.

 

[NikHelton]

Just do your own thread in parallel. My home internet is broken, and I took overtime before the New Year.
I'll write my answer when it's ready.

 

[Da3ggman]

Just do your own thread in parallel.

....no? I'd rather not work on stuff when another thread trying to completely dismantle what I'm actively working on is open. Just unnecessary stress tbh.

My home internet is broken, and I took overtime before the New Year.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'll write my answer when it's ready.

I'll mark you down for the "Keep it open" option, then,

 

[NikHelton]

....no? I'd rather not work on stuff when another thread trying to completely dismantle what I'm actively working on is open. Just unnecessary stress tbh.

Twellas made a compelling case for Prime Orochi.
How exactly will this ruin your thread? I'll return to the earthquake topic. If you have calculations and feats of level 7-C, then the earthquake feat is irrelevant to you. If you want to continue relying on the 7-C feat, we can wait for my response and the admins' opinion.
This calculation has been added and removed an insane number of times and should either be made untouchable or banned.

 

[Da3ggman]

Twellas made a compelling case for Prime Orochi.

Hence why I am going to cover it in detail later on in a separate thread when I have access to all the resources I need, and have researched everything I can find. I want to cover all my bases, after all.

How exactly will this ruin your thread?

Because much of the scaling relies on the fact that Doppo does have a prime key? If it’s accepted that he doesn’t, then all the scaling chains and stuff I’ve carefully put together crumble.

If you want to continue relying on the 7-C feat, we can wait for my response

With all due respect, we’ve been waiting in your response for over a week now, which again, you said won’t even be a response to my post. How much longer do we have to wait for a response that isn’t even a response?

and the admins' opinion.

We already have the admins opinion, and they disagree. Technically, this thread could just be closed as is, with how much unanimous consensus there is.

This calculation has been added and removed an insane number of times and should either be made untouchable or banned.

Then that should be an entirely separate thread, not some footnote in this one.

 

[Viott]

Yes. Three thread moderators do not agree.

I also think this topic can be closed.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I'm fine with hat as well.

(If it's going to take time, you can certainly just come back when you're finished gathering stuff and then pose the question again if this thread hasn't concluded by then)

 

[Twellas]

Hello, everyone! Hope you all had a lovely Christmas with your friends and family. I've finally come back to the thread after a few days, and I have a proposition for you all.

There is one topic that I wish to delve further into, and that's Prime Doppo. Although I wanted to simply address it in this thread, the translations I need are taking longer than expected, and I'm wanting to investigate this further within the older guide books and other related source material. So, instead of simply having this CRT on hold until I get done with all of that, I propose that we simply....close the thread.

Not to be rude to Nik or anything, but it is glaringly obvious that the thread has been overwhelmingly rejected by nearly everyone, staff and regular user alike, on nearly all fronts. The ratio of staff with votings rights is 0-3, and 1-3 for calc members respectfully, more than enough to have the thread be considered officially rejected. Nik has also acknowledged that whatever message he may eventually send, will not be a response or debate of my debunk. I was all for giving him ample time to work on it, but I also want to get a move on from this so I can get back to my verse wise revisions. Namely ones that won't require me weeks to months of translating and researching. And, within those revisions, I will fully tackle the issue of Prime Doppo in its entirety, hopefully being able to prove without a shadow of a doubt of its legitimacy.

To me, this seems like the healthiest and most efficient way of fixing the verse and its place on the site. But if people want to keep this going, I'm fine with that as well.

Yeah ok, I only care about Prime Doppo