GT Goku Fights An Undisputed God (6 votes till Grace)

[pineappleman]

The funny thing is, we can see from this screenshot that the weakness description contradicts itself, by first claiming that the target needs to be attracted to her, then saying she has turned things that don't even have a mind or thoughts on her. I already explained why this isn't the case, Chou-Chou's power often defies its own logic and works on things and situations where it shouldn't. I mentioned this example as well before, but Vorgis HATED Chou-Chou and wanted anything but to be her peon. She still turned him into one in the end, as his eternal (funny) punishment.

It says that she can only turn people into her peon if they find her attractive, it seems to me that that distinction is made because her powers work on objects

As for your Vorgis example, hating someone =/ not finding them cute/attractive. As a One Piece example I'm sure someone could hate Hancock, but if they find her attractive nontheless they're still getting turned to stone

 

[Magicomethkuon]

It says that she can only turn people into her peon if they find her attractive, it seems to me that that distinction is made because her powers work on objects

As for your Vorgis example, hating someone =/ not finding them cute/attractive. As a One Piece example I'm sure someone could hate Hancock, but if they find her attractive nontheless they're still getting turned to stone

Vorgis always showed dislike, contempt or hatred for Chou-Chou in all of their interactions, and tried not only to kill her but to destroy everything for nothing but his own satisfaction. We are given no reason to assume that he was attracted to her in any form. He was begging and screaming NO while being turned into a peon.

 

[pineappleman]

Vorgis always showed dislike, contempt or hatred for Chou-Chou in all of their interactions, and tried not only to kill her but to destroy everything for nothing but his own satisfaction. We are given no reason to assume that he was attracted to her in any form. He was begging and screaming NO while being turned into a peon.

Physical attraction doesn't equal mental attraction, from the context that i got this interaction makes sense given her powers

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Physical attraction doesn't equal mental attraction, from the context that i got this interaction makes sense given her powers

This really shouldn't be needed in this case, but Occam's Razor. We have a character who always shows negative emotions towards another, and not once an ounce of attraction. Do we assume that the character is not attracted to the other, or do we assume that the character is attracted? The answer is, of course, that the character is not attracted. We can't arbitrarily say any given character had physical attraction to another based on nothing but "based on the definitions of attraction, it's possible that attraction could exist between these two" when the events of the plot show nothing to support that and, further, push for the opposite direction.

 

[pineappleman]

This really shouldn't be needed in this case, but Occam's Razor. We have a character who always shows negative emotions towards another, and not once an ounce of attraction. Do we assume that the character is not attracted to the other, or do we assume that the character is attracted? The answer is, of course, that the character is not attracted. We can't arbitrarily say any given character had physical attraction to another based on nothing but "based on the definitions of attraction, it's possible that attraction could exist between these two" when the events of the plot show nothing to support that and, further, push for the opposite direction.

So you believe that in order to turn a person into her peons, Chouchou, the semi-lewd character has to make them fall for her.. personality?
That's illogical. And in this instance, we're not relying on the definitions of attraction, we're relying on her ability. Her ability has her turn anyone into a peon unless they don't find her cute or attractive, we have her turn someone who finds her personality repulsive into a peon, we can then conclude that this cuteness and attractiveness is derived from her physical appearance.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

So you believe that in order to turn a person into her peons, Chouchou, the semi-lewd character has to make them fall for her.. personality?
That's illogical. And in this instance, we're not relying on the definitions of attraction, we're relying on her ability. Her ability has her turn anyone into a peon unless they find her cute or attractive, we have her turn someone who finds her personality repulsive into a peon, we can then conclude that this cuteness and attractiveness is derived from her physical appearance.

No, the answer is "any of it". Personality, looks, style. And sometimes it's also "none of it" (Vorgis, inanimate objects). Chou-chou isn't always lewd, either, she even has one personality who's just a tsundere or another who's quiet and barely says a word and feels like a kuudere introvert. There are girls who are in love with guys in the party and still become Chou-Chou peons. People who hate her become her peons. Monsters and other species can become her peons. A Continent and a planetary barrier can become her peon. A computer system can become her peon too, if I recall. So no, this has nothing to do with finding her attractive. It would take a lot of reaching to say so.

 

[pineappleman]

No, the answer is "any of it". Personality, looks, style. And sometimes it's also "none of it" (Vorgis, inanimate objects). Chou-chou isn't always lewd, either, she even has one personality who's just a tsundere or another who's quiet and barely says a word and feels like a kuudere introvert. There are girls who are in love with guys in the party can still become Chou-Chou peons. People who hate her become her peons. Monsters and other species can become her peons. A Continent and a planetary barrier can become her peon. A computer system can become her peon too, if I recall. So no, this has nothing to do with finding her attractive. It would take a lot of reaching to say so.

If your point is that she can turn someone into her peon if they're attracted to either her personality or her looks, then i agree with you
If your point is that she can turn anyone into her peon and that her stated weakness doesn't exist because she can turn objects into peons or people that specifically don't like her personality into her peons, that is false

Either way Goku being either physically or mentally attracted to her is off the table, he's just not that sort of character

 

[Magicomethkuon]

If your point is that she can turn someone into her peon if they're either attracted to either her personality or her looks, then i agree with you
If your point is that she can turn anyone into her peon and that her stated weakness doesn't exist because she can turn objects into peons or people that specifically don't like her personality into her peons, that is false

Either way Goku being either physically or mentally attracted to her is off the table, he's just not that sort of character

Here's the thing. I already showed to you a feat of a character who is not attracted to her in either front being affected by the power. For the point of denying this that you are making to work, we'd have to arbitrarily say Vorgis is attracted to Chou-Chou when the plot is screaming at the player's face that he feels anything but that towards Chou-Chou.
It's an assumption that runs contrary to the events of the game. It is reaching into saying Vorgis would have been attracted to Chou-Chou physically without any basis or game event to back it up.
Also a Goku from a different continuity but with the exact same personality as this one made best friends with a small weird alien child who destroys universes on a whim. He absolutely would like Chou-Chou's personality and powers, even if whether he does or not is irrelevant to her hax working in the long run.

 

[KingKenjo]

Based on the arguments given my opinion is that Magic's points seem to make more sense.

 

[pineappleman]

Here's the thing. I already showed to you a feat of a character who is not attracted to her in either front being affected by the power. For the point of denying this that you are making to work, we'd have to arbitrarily say Vorgis is attracted to Chou-Chou when the plot is screaming at the player's face that he feels anything but that towards Chou-Chou.
It's an assumption that runs contrary to the events of the game. It is reaching into saying Vorgis would have been attracted to Chou-Chou physically without any basis or game event to back it up.
Also a Goku from a different continuity but with the exact same personality as this one made best friends with a small weird alien child who destroys universes on a whim. He absolutely would like Chou-Chou's personality and powers, even if whether he does or not is irrelevant to her hax working in the long run.

Based on the arguments given my opinion is that Magic's points seem to make more sense.

You can not prove that Vorgis was not attracted to her/found her cute physically. I'll lay it out more clearly:
If the lore of the peon move states that it doesn't work on people that don't find her cute or attractive, and it works on someone, we can conclude that they found them attractive.
It worked on Vorgis.
Vorgis is known to hate Chou-Chou on a personal level, therefore she is not attracted to her on a personal level.
We ask ourself the question, can a person be turned into a peon if they are not attracted to Chou on a personal level?
The answer is yes, if they are attracted/find her cute on the physical level, which is the most clear explanation of why Vorgis, who hates her on a personal level, was turned into a peon.

That line of thought is way more rational and logical than seeing that Vorgis hates Chou as a person, refusing to believe that she could find her attractive/cute physically and instead completely going against Chou-chou's main and to my awareness only stated weakness on her peon turning to make her more powerful.

As for your point on Goku befriending Zeno, DBSku and GTku are unironically extremely different character-wise with GTku being more serious, and SSJ4 itself canonically making the user more animalistic/violent/fightthirsty

If Chou-chou's only wincon is turning Goku into a peon before he potentially oneshots, then consider this a vote for Goku

 

[KingKenjo]

As for your point on Goku befriending Zeno, DBSku and GTku are unironically extremely different character-wise with GTku being more serious, and SSJ4 itself canonically making the user more animalistic/violent/fightthirsty

If Chou-chou's only wincon is turning Goku into a peon before he potentially oneshots, then consider this a vote for Goku

If it makes him more animalistic then wouldn't that make him more excited to fight her, which would trigger the hax?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

You can not prove that Vorgis was not attracted to her/found her cute physically. I'll lay it out more clearly:
If the lore of the peon move states that it doesn't work on people that don't find her cute or attractive, and it works on someone, we can conclude that they found them attractive.
It worked on Vorgis.
Vorgis is known to hate Chou-Chou on a personal level, therefore she is not attracted to her on a personal level.
We ask ourself the question, can a person be turned into a peon if they are not attracted to Chou on a personal level?
The answer is yes, if they are attracted/find her cute on the physical level, which is the most clear explanation of why Vorgis, who hates her on a personal level, was turned into a peon.

That line of thought is way more rational and logical than seeing that Vorgis hates Chou as a person, refusing to believe that she could find her attractive/cute physically and instead completely going against Chou-chou's main and to my awareness only stated weakness on her peon turning to make her more powerful.

As for your point on Goku befriending Zeno, DBSku and GTku are unironically extremely different character-wise with GTku being more serious, and SSJ4 itself canonically making the user more animalistic/violent/fightthirsty

If Chou-chou's only wincon is turning Goku into a peon before he potentially oneshots, then consider this a vote for Goku

You should look at VS debating more in-depth, if you think burden of proof is on me to prove that Vorgis, a character who has never displayed any manner of attraction towards Chou-Chou, was not attracted to her. Rather than being on you, who are claiming that attraction exists without anything to support it. And after being repeatedly shown that not only there is no evidence to support it, there's evidence against it.
If Chou-Chou's power has multiple feats that go beyond its initial description, simply put the initial description was incomplete, the power evolved or the description was never enough to describe it in the first place. Because actual feats in a story have more weight than statements and sidenotes.
This discussion has already turned needlessly prolonged and circular - because you have been consistently ignoring or denying everything I presented on the matter without bringing actual evidence to back up what you want to believe in.
That is what people call headcanon.
And no? GT Goku is even more carefree than normal continuity Goku a lot of times. The more you try to reach like this to argue against Chou-Chou's hax here, the less credible your vote looks to me.
If you had even said that you want to vote on Goku winning because you believe he could beat her before she uses the hax, it would look more credible than denying all of this the way you have been trying to.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

And sidenote of advice: I ask that you think again, deeply, about how burden of proof works. If it did the way you are trying to imply here, we could make just about any discussion, be it CRT or a VS Thread loop ad nauseum based on nothing but what we felt like saying or thinking about a series, disregarding what the franchises are showing us in favor of what we want to believe. That's not how debating works.

 

[pineappleman]

You should look at VS debating more in-depth, if you think burden of proof is on me to prove that Vorgis, a character who has never displayed any manner of attraction towards Chou-Chou, was not attracted to her. Rather than being on you, who are claiming that attraction exists without anything to support it. And after being repeatedly shown that not only there is no evidence to support it, there's evidence against it.
If Chou-Chou's power has multiple feats that go beyond its initial description, simply put the initial description was incomplete, the power evolved or the description was never enough to describe it in the first place. Because actual feats in a story have more weight than statements and sidenotes.
This discussion has already turned needlessly prolonged and circular - because you have been consistently ignoring or denying everything I presented on the matter without bringing actual evidence to back up what you want to believe in.
That is what people call headcanon.
And no? GT Goku is even more carefree than normal continuity Goku a lot of times. The more you try to reach like this to argue against Chou-Chou's hax here, the less credible your vote looks to me.
If you had even said that you want to vote on Goku winning because you believe he could beat her before she uses the hax, it would look more credible than denying all of this the way you have been trying to.

I don't need you to 'prove' anything about your interpretation of how Chou's power works, because it directly goes against her page and how her power works. You tell me to look at VS debating more in-depth, then you should know that if you think her powers are better than what is put in her page then you should make a CRT and not use your own headcanon in a VS battle.
The discussion has gone for so long because you've been repeating yourself when faced with my logical rebuttal. The fact that you've resorted to attacks against me further discredits your vote in my eyes, too.
SSJ4's carefreeness in particular is uncomparable to DBSku, and GTku is generally more serious than his counterpart when faced with serious fights

If it makes him more animalistic then wouldn't that make him more excited to fight her, which would trigger the hax?

Not animalistic in that way, it's more him becoming serious and cocky and saiyanlike, rindering his waku-waku moments rarer. You can watch the Baby fight to see it clearly

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I don't need you to 'prove' anything about your interpretation of how Chou's power works, because it directly goes against her page and how her power works. You tell me to look at VS debating more in-depth, then you should know that if you think her powers are better than what is put in her page then you should make a CRT and not use your own headcanon in a VS battle.
The discussion has gone for so long because you've been repeating yourself when faced with my logical rebuttal. The fact that you've resorted to attacks against me further discredits your vote in my eyes, too.
SSJ4's carefreeness in particular is uncomparable to DBSku, and GTku is generally more serious than his counterpart when faced with serious fights


Not animalistic in that way, it's more him becoming serious and cocky and saiyanlike, rindering his waku-waku moments rarer. You can watch the Baby fight to see it clearly

It doesn't, the page itself mentions examples that are outside the supposed weakness. I showed you the feats. I don't need to get a CRT past when I already did that. The person who made the page who knows how many years back could simply have missed some of them, that's half the reason why I showed it happen to Vorgis. It happens to every verse, otherwise revisions wouldn't ever exist. But someone can prove something is simply missing in a thread, and add it later. You can't possibly claim that I'm using headcanon when I backed up everything that I said both with events of the game and things that happened in it. Meanwhile, you have not provided anything whatsoever in manner of evidence other than statements (of your own, not from any source) based on the perception you are trying to make, despite repeated explanations that yes, the events as they happen in the game go utterly against what you are holding onto, no matter how much you are shown otherwise.
I'm left with no option other than repeating where my arguments come from yes, when you refuse to accept the events of the plot that support them, in favor of claiming that your interpretation of the profile page here counts more than anything. No to mention, the argument about attraction which, again, you have never brought anything to the table to support other than your own words.
In light of that... You say that I am using headcanon? Please.
"The fact that you've resorted to attacks against me." Where, pray tell, did I remotely attack you as a person. I've been calmly constructing every last word I write here to make absolutely sure that I don't lose focus from the debate because I kind of hate personal attacks by how they never add anything to the discussion. Thanks for the false accusation, though, I sure appreciate it.
Finally, your take on Goku's personality makes it look like we're talking about Vegeta here, because this is the guy who has liked, spared and made friends with one very big list of people who tried to murder him and are far less friendly and fun about it than Chou-Chou. Same Goku who was sitting arms crossed and laughing on top of an evil dragon's head while making a joke until being blasted by a pillar of energy as the whole universe was at stake if they didn't bring down these enemies, Pan right by his side and in danger too. Same Goku who was laughing it off and eating a dragon ball when fighting against Omega and almost choked to death by himself on it. Serious... Yeah. Right.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Finally, a "logical rebuttal" that relies on evidence which does not exist is like multiplying a large number by zero. No matter how big it looks in the equation, it still amounts to nothing in the end.

 

[pineappleman]

I showed you the feats

You attributed turning objects into a feat, when the page makes it clear that that doesn't negate her weakness.
You told me of Vorgis' case, which I logically explained as being a case of physical attraction, backed up by her weakness inhibiting it from being anything other than that.

in favor of claiming that your interpretation of the profile page here counts more than anything.

That is how this site works unfortunately. If I didn't need to stick to the profile pages, then I could have just used alternative scaling which makes it so that Goku undoubtedly one-shots. That's not how these VS battles work, though.

No to mention, the argument about attraction which, again, you have never brought anything to the table to support other than your own words.

here's my proof in case you haven't seen it yet bro

It doesn't, the page itself mentions examples that are outside the supposed weakness. I showed you the feats. I don't need to get a CRT past when I already did that. The person who made the page who knows how many years back could simply have missed some of them, that's half the reason why I showed it happen to Vorgis. It happens to every verse, otherwise revisions wouldn't ever exist. But someone can prove something is simply missing in a thread, and add it later. You can't possibly claim that I'm using headcanon when I backed up everything that I said both with events of the game and things that happened in it. Meanwhile, you have not provided anything whatsoever in manner of evidence other than statements (of your own, not from any source) based on the perception you are trying to make, despite repeated explanations that yes, the events as they happen in the game go utterly against what you are holding onto, no matter how much you are shown otherwise.
I'm left with no option other than repeating where my arguments come from yes, when you refuse to accept the events of the plot that support them, in favor of claiming that your interpretation of the profile page here counts more than anything. No to mention, the argument about attraction which, again, you have never brought anything to the table to support other than your own words.
In light of that... You say that I am using headcanon? Please.
"The fact that you've resorted to attacks against me." Where, pray tell, did I remotely attack you as a person. I've been calmly constructing every last word I write here to make absolutely sure that I don't lose focus from the debate because I kind of hate personal attacks by how they never add anything to the discussion. Thanks for the false accusation, though, I sure appreciate it.
Finally, your take on Goku's personality makes it look like we're talking about Vegeta here, because this is the guy who has liked, spared and made friends with one very big list of people who tried to murder him and are far less friendly and fun about it than Chou-Chou. Same Goku who was sitting arms crossed and laughing on top of an evil dragon's head while making a joke until being blasted by a pillar of energy as the whole universe was at stake if they didn't bring down these enemies, Pan right by his side and in danger too. Same Goku who was laughing it off and eating a dragon ball when fighting against Omega and almost choked to death by himself on it. Serious... Yeah. Right.

Same Goku who was sitting arms crossed and laughing on top of an evil dragon's head while making a joke until being blasted by a pillar of energy as the whole universe was at stake if they didn't bring down these enemies, Pan right by his side and in danger too. Same Goku who was laughing it off and eating a dragon ball when fighting against Omega and almost choked to death by himself on it. Serious... Yeah. Right.

SSJ4's demeanor is different than his normal demeanor, and what you say is him being 'goofy' against Omega Shenron was actually a genius move that ended up saving their lives, so I don't see your point there

I think the only thing we agree at at this point is that we're both going in circles here, if there's further discussion about something else I'll join but otherwise that'll be it for me on this topic, everyone is feel free to draw their conclusions on if the hax would work or not on Goku

You can cast my vote on Goku due to Chou's hax not working on him and potentially one shotting

 

[KingKenjo]

I'll count the vote, but you know the Chou-Chou page is ridiculously outdated right? She doesn't even have her Transmutation listed in her Powers and Abilities.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

You attributed turning objects into a feat, when the page makes it clear that that doesn't negate her weakness.
You told me of Vorgis' case, which I logically explained as being a case of physical attraction, backed up by her weakness inhibiting it from being anything other than that.

That is how this site works unfortunately. If I didn't need to stick to the profile pages, then I could have just used alternative scaling which makes it so that Goku undoubtedly one-shots. That's not how these VS battles work, though.


here's my proof in case you haven't seen it yet bro

SSJ4's demeanor is different than his normal demeanor, and what you say is him being 'goofy' against Omega Shenron was actually a genius move that ended up saving their lives, so I don't see your point there

I think the only thing we agree at at this point is that we're both going in circles here, if there's further discussion about something else I'll join but otherwise that'll be it for me on this topic, everyone is feel free to draw their conclusions on if the hax would work or not on Goku

You can cast my vote on Goku due to Chou's hax not working on him and potentially one shotting

"I logically explained as being a case of physical attraction"
No. You didn't. You headcanon'd Vorgis having physical attraction towards Chou-Chou out of literally nowhere. Having played the entire game, seeing you say that and never back down on it even when seeing with your own eyes a scene that backs up the fact that he feels nothing whatsoever towards her... It is mentally exhausting for me. You saw events in the game pointing him in the opposite direction and still are holding tight to one sentence in a page that could be outdated by years, or to which the user could have forgotten to consider or write down a feat. With nothing to back that up other than you persistently wanting to say that is the case, even in face of actual events from the game pointing in the opposite direction. I want you to understand that what you are doing is no different from voting on factually wrong information because you just want to.
I want that to be very clear. And, I think you know that but want to go with it anyways as not doing so means you can't argue that her hax is irrelevant, which is blatantly false.
You are ignoring everything brought to the table and repeatedly saying the same thing while rejecting every interpretation and thought on the matter that doesn't match your intended vote. You don't support it, you don't disprove the points, you don't bring evidence. You just say that's what you believe and refuse to accept anything else.
It's starting to feel fundamentally impossible to discuss the matter with you, because with all due respect your arguments at this point rely on so much reaching, I feel like no combination of words in the world would make you accept the fact that your point is wrong and has nothing to support it.
So yes, I'll agree to disagree with you.

 

[Soulgizmo]

Me thinks that goku gt or super would have to show the ability to resist somebody just transmuting him into another creature.
I also want to talk to the person who said this ability of hers has a weakness
The idea of finding someone cute has to be somewhere in gokus mind somewhere. And it's not like a DragonBall character would ever come across an ability like that in their verse. The closest thing I can think of is super goku resisting ribbrianes love aura.
The best reasoning I can think of for him resisting this isn't simply gonna boil down to goku being able to find people cute or not. He's got to resist the idea of cute itself.

Anyway from what I've gathered from the thread chou chou opens with just creating a pocket reality with multiple selves in it.
The chances of goku simply getting overwhelmed and turned into a peon seems very likely. And gt goku especially in ssj4 doesn't seem likely to realize her ability right away.
Chances are either goku gets turned into a peon after a pitched fight or gets turned into a peon anyway from the beginning as surely he may be able to resist its affects at first before the mind control comes in.

 

[pineappleman]

You headcanon'd Vorgis having physical attraction towards Chou-Chou out of literally nowhere.

It's not headcanon, it's a logical conclusion. Attractiveness/cuteness can be in two ways, either physical or mental. Vorgis didn't have mental attraction to Chou, yet still got turned into a peon. Logically then, the attraction was physical. No logic leaps, no going against her established ability and weakness.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

It's not headcanon, it's a logical conclusion. Attractiveness/cuteness can be in two ways, either physical or mental. Vorgis didn't have mental attraction to Chou, yet still got turned into a peon. Logically then, the attraction was physical. No logic leaps, no going against her established ability and weakness.

Occam's razor helps here as well. The game has shown a character that hates Chou-Chou is affected by her peon turning power. It is more likely that her page is outdated and missing the full extent of her hax, not that Vorgis has physical attraction towards her that would go against his character and the plot just so we can agree with what the page claims. Content often needs revisions and Mugen Souls is not mainstream, it isn't strange that things would be just missing from profiles. I made a CRT to see the weakness removed, but I doubt many care about the verse, it will take time.

 

[KingKenjo]

.
Anyway from what I've gathered from the thread chou chou opens with just creating a pocket reality with multiple selves in it..

I've been wondering about this point. Does she actually do this in combat?

 

[Soulgizmo]

I've been wondering about this point. Does she actually do this in combat?

I looked closer it says that her alternative selves did this? Id assume if they were able to she could as well.
She's not restricted to the main personality here right?

 

[KingKenjo]

I looked closer it says that her alternative selves did this? Id assume if they were able to she could as well.
She's not restricted to the main personality here right?

Not as far as I'm aware.

 

[KingKenjo]

Bump

 

[KingKenjo]

Bump

 

[Soulgizmo]

bump

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

Yea safe to say Goku obliterates

 

[Soulgizmo]

Yea safe to say Goku obliterates

how?

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

how?

Do I really need to say it?

 

[KingKenjo]

Do I really need to say it?

Yeah, lol

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

Yeah, lol

HES GOKU

 

[Soulgizmo]

HES GOKU

Understood

 

[KingKenjo]

HES GOKU

Certified Goku moment

 

[KingKenjo]

Bump

 

[KingKenjo]

Bump

 

[KingKenjo]

Buump

 

[KingKenjo]

Majin Buump

 

[KingKenjo]

Burp