Hat Kid VS Frisk

[TheRexor28]

Where is it stated time flows normally? I literally gave an example with the purple time rifts that they don't flow normally.


No, you can have separate non-universal space-times, think shit like pocket dimensions or the hyperbolic time chamber. I personally do think there's more then enough proof for time rifts to be separate space-times, twilight bell having countless stars and nebulae's per layer and such, but that's not accepted here.

There is plenty which I explained in my comment, and that hasn't been addressed.

That's a complete false equivalence. Time rifts are explicitly rifts created from a time piece breaking that create portals to worlds where time does not flow linearly, again, look at the purple time rift as an example. Again, these time rifts are found by Hat Kid's spaceship detecting anomalies.

again purple rifts are probably just vague representations as the entire place is surrounded by a cave and nobody talks (except for like, 2 or 3 people), if it was actually through a person's history then it'd be much more accurate.


most pocket dimensions aren't considered low 2-C cuz there's no evidence that they're different timelines. all you have is a name which doesn't mean anything w/o context.

i ignored that section because it's true if the timelines are seperate.

no, it isn't, you're saying that because one thing is named something that it automatically assumes whatever properties the definition would mean. you say explicitly when all you have as proof is a name which might imply what you're saying. hat kid's space ship detects all time pieces, the only difference is that it sounds an alarm when a rift is found.

The pocket dimension in question leads you to one's past. So Frisk is going to rewind in the past... to get to the past? Mind you this is like, thousands of years into the past since rifts like Mafia rifts date back before they even made it to Mafia town.

even if you're right at this point his load point is in the future so it doesn't matter.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Frisk loads to a specific point in the timeline though. But anyway;

Is that actually how you get to the pocket dimension? Like, how does Hat send people there? Thought-based? Gesture?

A specific point in time... that doesn't exist yet? To quote Doc Brown.

Throwing her time piece at him.

 

[Planck69]

It would though. If she's just sending her back in time, the future would still exist. I don't know many verses that treat the future as no longer existing when one time travels.

Wait, it's a projectile? Does it need to hit Frisk? If so, what stops dodging?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

again purple rifts are probably just vague representations as the entire place is surrounded by a cave and nobody talks (except for like, 2 or 3 people), if it was actually through a person's history then it'd be much more accurate.


most pocket dimensions aren't considered low 2-C cuz there's no evidence that they're different timelines. all you have is a name which doesn't mean anything w/o context.

i ignored that section because it's true if the timelines are seperate.

no, it isn't, you're saying that because one thing is named something that it automatically assumes whatever properties the definition would mean. you say explicitly when all you have as proof is a name which might imply what you're saying. hat kid's space ship detects all time pieces, the only difference is that it sounds an alarm when a rift is found.


even if you're right at this point his load point is in the future so it doesn't matter.

"Probably are just" is a random assumption not supported at all, the Mafia member directly states it's one's past. You contradicted your point by admitting people talk in it. It is much more accurate tho, it literally explains the entire history of the species in question.

I already established it's not accepted as Low 2-C here and I explained why the name's valid with supporting evidence.

That's not what I said whatsoever so this is blatant strawman. I provided proof for why the time rifts work the way they do along with using purple time rifts. No I don't only have the name as a proof that's a direct lie. I had the purple time rifts existence, and the way it's detected as an anomaly when they're found.

Show when Frisk has ever loaded in the future please, a core ability of DT is that it reverses time not sends you into the future.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It would though. If she's just sending her back in time, the future would exist.

Wait, it's a projectile? Does it need to hit Frisk? If so, what stops dodging?

Why would it exist? Explain.

It needs to hit Frisk, what stops is that she has a spammable bunch of them and Frisk is used to dodging either projectiles that are pre-warned, like Undyne's spears or in his SOUL form, he's not used at all to combating with his physical body.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I'd also definitely liked proof that Frisk's reloads are interdimensional since that's considered greater range then uni+ from what I'm reading on the range page:

Range

Range is a measurement that refers to how far that the attacks or abilities of a certain character, weapon, or otherwise, can efficiently reach on their/its own. For more information about different units of length, please see this page. However, a general guide for categorizing range has been...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Planck69]

Why wouldn't it exist? It's a greater assumption that the future automatically disappears upon time travel, which isn't the case in most works involving time travel.

1. Frisk is dodging with their body though. They're not just sitting around with their souls moving out of their body.

2. What do you mean, pre-warned? I can't recall any prewarned attacks from Undyne.

3. Frisk has to cross a couple of yards to make one slash of a knife (or punch or whatever). Unless it's Danmaku, which it isn't, then Frisk will dodge just fine.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Why wouldn't it exist? It's a greater assumption that the future automatically disappears upon time travel, which isn't the case in most works involving time travel.

1. Frisk is dodging with their body though. They're not just sitting around with their souls moving out of their body.

2. And what do you mean, pre-warned?

3. Frisk has to cross a couple of yards to make one slash of a knife (or punch or whatever). Unless it's Danmaku, which it isn't, then Frisk will dodge just fine.

I'm asking you why would it exist in a separate pocket dimension where Frisk isn't in the same universe why it would still exist. I'm also not required to prove a negative, the burden of proof is on you.

1. Where does this come from? One of the major parts of battles like Sans is the movement of his soul or speeding up his soul.

2. Blue light shows and then the spears come out.

3. Hat Kid's more proficient with the time pieces then mustache girl, and mustache girl can cause hundreds of them to fall

 

[Planck69]

I'll just assume that the pocket dimension indeed negates LOAD for simplicity's sake.

1. The SOUL is a representative of your body moving though. Since it can't move independently, you move when Sans TKs it around.

2. What times are these? I looked at the fight and didn't see anything like this. Are you talking about how they turn red right before they strike? If so, the other attacks don't have this. Not to mention Asgore, Muffet and all the other monsters attacks that Frisk can dodge without a single hit.

3. Speaking of, is that it? Frisk can dodge significantly worse. Especially considering her opponent is right in front of her.

 

[TheRexor28]

"Probably are just" is a random assumption not supported at all, the Mafia member directly states it's one's past. You contradicted your point by admitting people talk in it. It is much more accurate tho, it literally explains the entire history of the species in question.

I already established it's not accepted as Low 2-C here and I explained why the name's valid with supporting evidence.

That's not what I said whatsoever so this is blatant strawman. I provided proof for why the time rifts work the way they do along with using purple time rifts. No I don't only have the name as a proof that's a direct lie. I had the purple time rifts existence, and the way it's detected as an anomaly when they're found.

Show when Frisk has ever loaded in the future please, a core ability of DT is that it reverses time not sends you into the future.

the mafia says this. later he does say that he likes to experience his past. that doesn't support you because it's filled with his thoughts and dreams which can easily hold his past without actually going into the past. also literally only 2 npcs in all 8 time rifts talk which would be an inconsistency and not useable. no, it doesn't, the furthest back any rift goes is to the mafia not being on the island which is at most thousands of years. even then it's only an incredibly tiny area on each layer which barely shows a fraction let alone the entire history of a species

your evidence is just the name (which is very unreliable) and the purple rifts (which i just debunked) and the ship (which you ignored me debunking).

again you ignored me debunking the ship thing and i just debunked the purple rift thing. like i said hat kid's ship detects all time pieces and does nothing other than sound an alarm when it detects a rift instead of a time piece.

i'll agree with this if it applies.

 

[Planck69]

Like really, Frisk can dodge every attack from monsters who have Danmaku. This is not at all comparable to having the pieces drop on you.

 

[TheRexor28]

Like really, Frisk can dodge every attack from monsters who have Danmaku. This is not at all comparable to having the pieces drop on you.

it looks omnidirectional so he can't dodge it, plus it hit a bit in front of hat kid and still applied

 

[Planck69]

I take it the pieces are the large hourglass(?) figures falling? Or the attack flung by Mustache Girl (I think)

 

[TheRexor28]

I take it the pieces are the large hourglass(?) figures falling?

yes

 

[Planck69]

They look pretty dodgeable to me, considering how sparsed out they are.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

the mafia says this. later he does say that he likes to experience his past. that doesn't support you because it's filled with his thoughts and dreams which can easily hold his past without actually going into the past. also literally only 2 npcs in all 8 time rifts talk which would be an inconsistency and not useable. no, it doesn't, the furthest back any rift goes is to the mafia not being on the island which is at most thousands of years. even then it's only an incredibly tiny area on each layer which barely shows a fraction let alone the entire history of a species

your evidence is just the name (which is very unreliable) and the purple rifts (which i just debunked) and the ship (which you ignored me debunking).

again you ignored me debunking the ship thing and i just debunked the purple rift thing. like i said hat kid's ship detects all time pieces and does nothing other than sound an alarm when it detects a rift instead of a time piece.

i'll agree with this if it applies.

That's not how an inconsistency works, an inconsistency would apply to a feat, NPCs talking is not a feat, it's a simple thing of game design, the reason other NPCs don't talk to you is because the focus game design wise is getting the rift pons and getting to the bottom floor. Yes it's filled with the entire's speicies thoughts and dreams, Mafia Boss' dream was to leave his dead end job and find an island for himself as displayed in the storybook, that's still sending you back to the past as you're witnessing the events. Tell me this, if you were witnessing purely a single person's thoughts and dreams why does the subcon rift show the past of Queen Vanessa and Snatcher when literally no subcon person knows about that.

Rexor stop saying my evidence is purely the name, that's objectively false and you can see that throughout this entire comment chain. I didn't ignore you debunking the ship you didn't debunk it, you just attempted to trivialize the scene which doesn't really debunk or refute anything. The name isn't unreliable either, it's a name that comes from an object that warps space-time.

You debunked neither. It detects time pieces and specifically does an alarm when the rift appears, showing the rift has importance, you're attempting the trivialize something without truly debunking this.

You've literally debunked nothing here, you just thought "oh it says thoughts and dreams so this must be right" without understand that literally further supports my point.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Like really, Frisk can dodge every attack from monsters who have Danmaku. This is not at all comparable to having the pieces drop on you.

In his soul form, which I asked you for instances he dodged with his regular body which you have yet to show.

Also they are very much comparable, the best danmaku monsters have are fire swirls from Asgore.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I'll just assume that the pocket dimension indeed negates LOAD for simplicity's sake.

1. The SOUL is a representative of your body moving though. Since it can't move independently, you move when Sans TKs it around.

2. What times are these? I looked at the fight and didn't see anything like this. Are you talking about how they turn red right before they strike? If so, the other attacks don't have this. Not to mention Asgore, Muffet and all the other monsters attacks that Frisk can dodge without a single hit.

3. Speaking of, is that it? Frisk can dodge significantly worse. Especially considering her opponent is right in front of her.

1. He pulls off better feats with the SOUL then he does with his body as his dodging is worse in his body as shown with Undyne's extremely telegraphed attacks being hard to dodge, with his soul he can float around and manuver better.

2. When Undyne's chasing you.

3. What's the "significantly worse"?

 

[Planck69]

1. He pulls off better feats with the SOUL then he does with his body as his dodging is worse in his body as shown with Undyne's extremely telegraphed attacks being hard to dodge, with his soul he can float around and manuver better.

2. When Undyne's chasing you.

3. What's the "significantly worse"?

1. His soul isn't faster than his body. He isn't attacking with just his soul either. This is something that is not a thing at all (his profile having a single speed and no Astral Projection will tell you that much).

2. If you're talking about the waterfall scene then it's likely just a lower Determination Frisk. Really, this "SOUL=/=body" is straight up not a thing unless you CRT it.

3. Most of the bosses? The Time Piece attack is just sparsely spread falling objects. Frisk is dodging that with far less issues than attacks from behind, attacks with hindered movements etc.

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, this back-and-forth will go nowhere. My vote is incon. If people vote otherwise then so be it.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

1. His soul isn't faster than his body. He isn't attacking with just his soul either. This is something that is not a thing at all (his profile having a single speed and no Astral Projection will tell you that much).

2. If you're talking about the waterfall scene then it's likely just a lower Determination Frisk. Really, this "SOUL=/=body" is straight up not a thing unless you CRT it.

3. Most of the bosses? The Time Piece attack is just sparsely spread falling objects. Frisk is dodging that with far less issues than attacks from behind, attacks with hindered movements etc.

1. Better maneuverability =/= faster. The profile having a single speed is because I never once contested that. They both have the same speed, he has far better manuverability in his soul form. Him attacking with his physical body is irrelevant to his SOUL dodging the attacks since that's what monsters specifically aim for in fights.

2. That's a very random excuse, Frisk doesn't suddenly has boosted maneuverability via determination. SOUL objectively =/= body, like what? Why would his SOUL be his body, that completely contradicts the lore of UT.

3. Hundreds of them falling around the map covering the area seems to be what the top tier boss, aka Asgore, does, and Frisk can barely avoid attacks from him. What are the "attacks from behind" and the attacks with hindered movements are all done in his SOUL form.

 

[Planck69]

His soul isn't, his body but rather there's no maneuverability difference. Really now, this isn't a thing considering they're harming your body as well in those fights.

You can beat Asgore without being hit even once so this is fine, especially considering that she has to make 3 steps to land a strike and win unlike with Asgore. Attacks from behind and while hindered are Undyne and Muffet.

Honestly, this is it. If this won't convince you then fine.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

His soul isn't, his body but rather there's no maneuverability difference. Really now, this isn't a thing considering they're harming your body as well in those fights.

You can beat Asgore without being hit even once so this is fine, especially considering that she has to make 3 steps to land a strike and win unlike with Asgore. Attacks from behind and while hindered are Undyne and Muffet.

Honestly, this is it. If this won't convince you then fine.

There is a huge maneuverability difference. Your SOUL is capable of moving in a far more better arc and method then your regular body, which makes logical sense since you have way less weight to you, no gravity, and can fly. Where is it shown your body's also harmed?

Seeing as we never assume once in any other RPG profile that a RPG character won by no-hitting the only way I could see Frisk not being hit by Asgore once is if they reset so many times that they learned his pattern, which isn't skill, it's literally knowing what attack is coming to hit them.

Idk what you were expecting when you didn't even at the very least provide a scan behind your claim and expected me to just accept he can no hit Asgore purely off skill.

 

[TheRexor28]

That's not how an inconsistency works, an inconsistency would apply to a feat, NPCs talking is not a feat, it's a simple thing of game design, the reason other NPCs don't talk to you is because the focus game design wise is getting the rift pons and getting to the bottom floor. Yes it's filled with the entire's speicies thoughts and dreams, Mafia Boss' dream was to leave his dead end job and find an island for himself as displayed in the storybook, that's still sending you back to the past as you're witnessing the events. Tell me this, if you were witnessing purely a single person's thoughts and dreams why does the subcon rift show the past of Queen Vanessa and Snatcher when literally no subcon person knows about that.

Rexor stop saying my evidence is purely the name, that's objectively false and you can see that throughout this entire comment chain. I didn't ignore you debunking the ship you didn't debunk it, you just attempted to trivialize the scene which doesn't really debunk or refute anything. The name isn't unreliable either, it's a name that comes from an object that warps space-time.

You debunked neither. It detects time pieces and specifically does an alarm when the rift appears, showing the rift has importance, you're attempting the trivialize something without truly debunking this.

You've literally debunked nothing here, you just thought "oh it says thoughts and dreams so this must be right" without understand that literally further supports my point.

what kinda logic is this?? because the inconsistency page only relates to vs battles, the word inconsistency only applies to feats??? hell, vs battles even applies it in a way which is consistent with the definition.
inconsistency:
noun the fact or state of being inconsistent.
"the inconsistency between his expressed attitudes and his actual behaviour"
that only further proves my point as those two mafia talking would just be a game mechanic. and yeah you're witnessing the events through thoughts and dreams, you're literally witnessing the events through thoughts and dreams, not being sent to the past. also you have yet to show ANY proof that it actually sends you to the past aside from what i just debunked, and time rifts being "more important" than time pieces. you have no proof that no subcon person knows that, their souls get put into the minions when they get iced by vanessa so anybody could know. also no, it doesn't show multiple people's/entire species thoughts and dreams, every area is small enough for one person to remember from different points in time.

other guy provides an argument > completely ignore it and just reassert what he was trying to say was false > when he brings it up say that he trivialized it and move on, okay

so a name being correlated automatically makes an object much more potent than it's shown to be?

more important in no way implies that it can warp space time far beyond what's been shown. hell, it's much more likely that it's more important because some random guy could fall into it and die/steal the time piece.

you've literally proved nothing here, all you've done is ignore my arguments and then also argue things which i blatantly disproved (mostly for the purple rift thing) and then used it as proof.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

what kinda logic is this?? because the inconsistency page only relates to vs battles, the word inconsistency only applies to feats??? hell, vs battles even applies it in a way which is consistent with the definition.
inconsistency:
noun the fact or state of being inconsistent.
"the inconsistency between his expressed attitudes and his actual behaviour"
that only further proves my point as those two mafia talking would just be a game mechanic. and yeah you're witnessing the events through thoughts and dreams, you're literally witnessing the events through thoughts and dreams, not being sent to the past. also you have yet to show ANY proof that it actually sends you to the past aside from what i just debunked, and time rifts being "more important" than time pieces. you have no proof that no subcon person knows that, their souls get put into the minions when they get iced by vanessa so anybody could know. also no, it doesn't show multiple people's/entire species thoughts and dreams, every area is small enough for one person to remember from different points in time.


so a name being correlated automatically makes an object much more potent than it's shown to be?

more important in no way implies that it can warp space time far beyond what's been shown. hell, it's much more likely that it's more important because some random guy could fall into it and die/steal the time piece.

you've literally proved nothing here, all you've done is ignore my arguments and then also argue things which i blatantly disproved (mostly for the purple rift thing) and then used it as proof.

Not what I said, inconsistency in it's essence refers to events not consistent, some NPCs talking and some not aren't on a consistency chain. Why would that further prove your point that the two talking are game mechanics? What even? How is a NPC talking a game mechanic now? You basically just said in bold you're witnessing the past, not witnessing the past. Guess where you have to go to witness their thoughts and dreams? You didn't debunk it, I literally established what's wrong with that. I actually do have proof they don't know, the very soul thing you sent was them unaware of what happened at the castle which is why they'd have no idea what happened between Snatcher and Vanessa, you've directly proved it. There's literal storybook pages with Mafia Boss by himself that a random mafia member wouldn't be near.

Not what I said but sure, keep strawmanning.

It's literally shown that Mustache Girl with it created a contextual alternate reality where she's ruler, so that's not "far beyond what's been shown" whatsoever.

I have, I didn't ignore your arguments, I refuted them, you didn't disprove it either objectively. You seem to not understand a place of thoughts and dreams would be the past.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

This is my last post for tonight, heading to sleep.

 

[TheRexor28]

Not what I said, inconsistency in it's essence refers to events not consistent, some NPCs talking and some not aren't on a consistency chain. Why would that further prove your point that the two talking are game mechanics? What even? How is a NPC talking a game mechanic now? You basically just said in bold you're witnessing the past, not witnessing the past. Guess where you have to go to witness their thoughts and dreams? You didn't debunk it, I literally established what's wrong with that. I actually do have proof they don't know, the very soul thing you sent was them unaware of what happened at the castle which is why they'd have no idea what happened between Snatcher and Vanessa, you've directly proved it. There's literal storybook pages with Mafia Boss by himself that a random mafia member wouldn't be near.

Not what I said but sure, keep strawmanning.

It's literally shown that Mustache Girl with it created a contextual alternate reality where she's ruler, so that's not "far beyond what's been shown" whatsoever.

I have, I didn't ignore your arguments, I refuted them, you didn't disprove it either objectively. You seem to not understand a place of thoughts and dreams would be the past.

the events aren't consistent, so it's an inconsistency. simple as that. it's inconsistent with every other rift where nobody talks.

...the reason other NPCs don't talk to you is because the focus game design wise is getting the rift pons and getting to the bottom floor.

you're also strawmanning, i said that they're witnessing the events (which happened in the past) through that one mafia's thoughts and dreams. you did debunk it and then i debunked your debunking. yes, it happened in the past, you are looking at it through thoughts and dreams of the event, which happened in the past. the time rift is just emulating from the character's thoughts and dreams. no past time travel is happening. also, snatcher and vanessa have been hit by the time pieces so that point is moot. snatcher can be pretty much anywhere to see any event via teleportation, so it isnt unlikely that the rift you're talking about is his. even with the mafia thing, that's ONE slide from ONE storybook, not nearly enough to use this as proof.

you used it to prove your argument which is basically that, but sure, keep ignoring me.
a name being correlated doesn't prove your argument at all. the final boss arena of a hat in time is called the hyper zone, that wouldn't scale it to something else which is hyper.

that was done with an unknown number of time pieces over an unknown period of time, hat in time was downgraded a while back from high 6-A for the same reason.

i could copy+paste that and be mostly right.
also,
you still have yet to show scans that the time rifts go into the past.
you still have yet to show scans that being called a time rift is enough to be scaled to the literal definition of "a break in time". neither the manual nor the game ever state this.

 

[TheRexor28]

i will also be going to bed.

 

[Bruhtelho]

oh shit, yah Speed is meant to be equal

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

the events aren't consistent, so it's an inconsistency. simple as that. it's inconsistent with every other rift where nobody talks.

you're also strawmanning, i said that they're witnessing the events (which happened in the past) through that one mafia's thoughts and dreams. you did debunk it and then i debunked your debunking. yes, it happened in the past, you are looking at it through thoughts and dreams of the event, which happened in the past. the time rift is just emulating from the character's thoughts and dreams. no past time travel is happening. also, snatcher and vanessa have been hit by the time pieces so that point is moot. snatcher can be pretty much anywhere to see any event via teleportation, so it isnt unlikely that the rift you're talking about is his. even with the mafia thing, that's ONE slide from ONE storybook, not nearly enough to use this as proof.

you used it to prove your argument which is basically that, but sure, keep ignoring me.
a name being correlated doesn't prove your argument at all. the final boss arena of a hat in time is called the hyper zone, that wouldn't scale it to something else which is hyper.

that was done with an unknown number of time pieces over an unknown period of time, hat in time was downgraded a while back from high 6-A for the same reason.

i could copy+paste that and be mostly right.
also,
you still have yet to show scans that the time rifts go into the past.
you still have yet to show scans that being called a time rift is enough to be scaled to the literal definition of "a break in time". neither the manual nor the game ever state this.

If by events you mean an "NPC talking" that's not a lined up chain of events, that's a singular event, it doesn't need to be consistent, the other people in the rift either attack you or are busy doing their own thing, which is common in AHIT, so again, by definition it's not inconsistent.

So they're within the past. Snatcehr and Vanessa have never been hit by the time pieces or they wouldn't be attacking or talking to you outside of the time rifts, that's exactly why I used that storybook, the purple time rifts are for the entire speicies not a singular person. That is enough proof chalked up with snatcher and vanessa.

Me using it =/= it's my main argument. It actually does very much, you know what correlation is, correct? The hyper zone thing is once again a false equivalence, a time rift is directly something temporal in nature, and correlates to the time pieces which literally warp space-time, hyper zone in no way correlates.

You really could not at all.
I've shown scans, you seem to not understand that the very components of viewing a past memory is going to the past since that's how a timeline works.
I don't need to show scans for something self-evident.

 

[TheRexor28]

If by events you mean an "NPC talking" that's not a lined up chain of events, that's a singular event, it doesn't need to be consistent, the other people in the rift either attack you or are busy doing their own thing, which is common in AHIT, so again, by definition it's not inconsistent.

So they're within the past. Snatcehr and Vanessa have never been hit by the time pieces or they wouldn't be attacking or talking to you outside of the time rifts, that's exactly why I used that storybook, the purple time rifts are for the entire speicies not a singular person. That is enough proof chalked up with snatcher and vanessa.

Me using it =/= it's my main argument. It actually does very much, you know what correlation is, correct? The hyper zone thing is once again a false equivalence, a time rift is directly something temporal in nature, and correlates to the time pieces which literally warp space-time, hyper zone in no way correlates.

You really could not at all.
I've shown scans, you seem to not understand that the very components of viewing a past memory is going to the past since that's how a timeline works.
I don't need to show scans for something self-evident.

the npc thing doesn't really support either argument anyway so i'm gonna ignore it.

you completely ignored where i said it's just emulating the person's thoughts and dreams of the past. nothing implies that it's sending you backwards in time, even the name time rift doesn't say that. all time rift could mean is "a break/split/crack in time". also, there are multiple pages which show exclusively one or two character's feelings, which would've been impossible for anyone else to know aside from snatcher and vanessa. if it was for the entire species then it would be large enough to contain at least a good portion of their home world, plus it wouldn't focus on just one person at any point. each and every one of the story books/rifts show the perspective from just one person. the only exception is this one, even then both of their stories for that specific story book are heavily intertwined.

the only valid point you have is that you can interact with snatcher/vanessa before you clear the rifts, and even then the time pieces immediately bfr you only when mustache girl has intent to do so.

yeah but that doesn't support you enough alone, especially when time pieces have never been shown to have that much power alone. at most it's been a few seconds of rewind for just one. the only time they have more power than that is in large groups.

i still definitely could.
you mean 1, you supported yours with this while also ignoring what he said barely 10 seconds earlier:

this, like i said multiple times, means you are merely experiencing memories of that mafia's past. if it was truly the mafia's actual past via time travel it would be much more accurate, memories get fuzzy over time which is why all the rifts are very small and level based. it'd be like saying that because i can remember things from my past and view them in my head, i'm opening a portal in my mind directly to the event and watching it live.

you do when it's heavily contradicted. "break/split in time" means barely anything and certainly doesn't imply that the time rifts are areas from the past.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

the npc thing doesn't really support either argument anyway so i'm gonna ignore it.

you completely ignored where i said it's just emulating the person's thoughts and dreams of the past. nothing implies that it's sending you backwards in time, even the name time rift doesn't say that. all time rift could mean is "a break/split/crack in time". also, there are multiple pages which show exclusively one or two character's feelings, which would've been impossible for anyone else to know aside from snatcher and vanessa. if it was for the entire species then it would be large enough to contain at least a good portion of their home world, plus it wouldn't focus on just one person at any point. each and every one of the story books/rifts show the perspective from just one person. the only exception is this one, even then both of their stories for that specific story book are heavily intertwined.

the only valid point you have is that you can interact with snatcher/vanessa before you clear the rifts, and even then the time pieces immediately bfr you only when mustache girl has intent to do so.

yeah but that doesn't support you enough alone, especially when time pieces have never been shown to have that much power alone. at most it's been a few seconds of rewind for just one. the only time they have more power than that is in large groups.

i still definitely could.
you mean 1, you supported yours with this while also ignoring what he said barely 10 seconds earlier:

this, like i said multiple times, means you are merely experiencing memories of that mafia's past. if it was truly the mafia's actual past via time travel it would be much more accurate, memories get fuzzy over time which is why all the rifts are very small and level based. it'd be like saying that because i can remember things from my past and view them in my head, i'm opening a portal in my mind directly to the event and watching it live.

you do when it's heavily contradicted. "break/split in time" means barely anything and certainly doesn't imply that the time rifts are areas from the past.

It emulating the entire history of a species would still be taking one to their past. So it would be sending you back in time, I never claimed that it's name says that so I don't even know why this was brought up. No, that just literally proves my claim that it's based off the species past not a single person it could not have hit Snatcher or Vanessa as hitting the person sends them into the rift as shown with the Mafia guy. It doesn't focus on one person at any point in the rift it focuses on the species entire history, how the mafia built a ship and went to mafia island, the history of the subcons, the afterlife of the goats, etc.

I already established the power they've shown above. "It's been a few seconds to rewind for just one" the only time we've seen that is when Mustache girl accidentally rewinded it for a few seconds, DJ Grooves and Conductor's plan completely contradict your argument since they literally state with just one time piece how far back they could go. So this is already incorrect.

I didn't ignore what he said 10 seconds ago as this entire argument I've had with you I literally accept what he says 10 seconds ago and already explained why that's irrelevant.

Your false equivalence falls flat once you realize your mind cannot remember events you were not there for, as shown with subcons and events of Snatcher and Vanessa. Even then, you're still viewing the past in your mind. So I have no clue what you're attempting to argue here, you're still admitting to viewing the past no matter how you shake it.

How is it heavily contradicted at all? What's the contradiction? You haven't applied any of that, if anything the time rfits support a break in time as you're viewing past events which isn't at all linear.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

the only valid point you have is that you can interact with snatcher/vanessa before you clear the rifts, and even then the time pieces immediately bfr you only when mustache girl has intent to do so.

Just noticed this, objectively false as my points are valid by definition and will not be invalid until proven otherwise. But also your claim is 100% factually incorrect, the BFR does not require "intent" I have no clue where this headcanon comes from but the time pieces literally cause BFR by hitting an enemy on the head

 

[TheRexor28]

It emulating the entire history of a species would still be taking one to their past. So it would be sending you back in time, I never claimed that it's name says that so I don't even know why this was brought up. No, that just literally proves my claim that it's based off the species past not a single person it could not have hit Snatcher or Vanessa as hitting the person sends them into the rift as shown with the Mafia guy. It doesn't focus on one person at any point in the rift it focuses on the species entire history, how the mafia built a ship and went to mafia island, the history of the subcons, the afterlife of the goats, etc.

I already established the power they've shown above. "It's been a few seconds to rewind for just one" the only time we've seen that is when Mustache girl accidentally rewinded it for a few seconds, DJ Grooves and Conductor's plan completely contradict your argument since they literally state with just one time piece how far back they could go. So this is already incorrect.

I didn't ignore what he said 10 seconds ago as this entire argument I've had with you I literally accept what he says 10 seconds ago and already explained why that's irrelevant.

Your false equivalence falls flat once you realize your mind cannot remember events you were not there for, as shown with subcons and events of Snatcher and Vanessa. Even then, you're still viewing the past in your mind. So I have no clue what you're attempting to argue here, you're still admitting to viewing the past no matter how you shake it.

How is it heavily contradicted at all? What's the contradiction? You haven't applied any of that, if anything the time rfits support a break in time as you're viewing past events which isn't at all linear.

again, why would we assume it sends you back in time (as in teleported to the year which it happened) rather than duplicating the thoughts and dreams in the current time? all that's said is that time rifts are filled with thoughts and dreams, nothing says that it's taking hat kid to the past. the mafia's thoughts and dreams can be about the past. hat kid's just put inside a representation, as i said. also those storybooks are pretty much all revolved around a single character. here are the explanations for every story book:

Spoiler: text wall

mafia's grand voyage: a vast majority of it is for exclusively mafia boss, only one panel shows otherwise and even then the mafia boss could easily remember his goons playing on the deck of the boat.

the hero (obviously): only from mustache girl's perspective

conductor and grooves' big dreams: closest thing you have to proof, still contradicted by everything else

groovy underdog: only from grooves' perspective. there's only one panel where he isn't present but during then he's probably just off screen

tale of queen vanessa: only from vanessa's perspective. there's one scene with snatcher but that could just be vanessa checking on him, no reason to assume multiple perspectives.

the lost children: has multiple children in it and any could be the one subcon minion who got hit by the time piece. even the kids' masks remain consistent after death.

twilight ascent: follows one goat.

nomads: could be from the perspective of any nomad, otherwise 2nd best arguement

lost at sea: follows the captain

one last journey: follows rumbi

with this much against your point you absolutely cannot say that anything here proves it. this next point is also contradicted by every rift. you can interact with mafia boss, conductor/grooves, snatcher, vanessa, mustache girl, walrus captain, and rumbi before you do any of their rifts. so why would we assume it instantly bfrs if only one or two mafia were possibly bfred compared to the many who aren't?

conductor/grooves have no clue how potent it is and are probably just assuming, even if we take that at face value that's at the very most 60 or so years, nowhere near the thousands from the mafia.

and i just explained why it's relevant.

this entire section falls flat once you realize that what you said only proves my point. the single mafia goon didn't remember all of the details so most of it was unfilled, if the time rift teleported hat kid to the past then it would be nearly perfect in representation. viewing the past =/= time travel, my analogy addresses this.

60 or so years is barely a portion of thousands.

Just noticed this, objectively false as my points are valid by definition and will not be invalid until proven otherwise. But also your claim is 100% factually incorrect, the BFR does not require "intent" I have no clue where this headcanon comes from but the time pieces literally cause BFR by hitting an enemy on the head

mustache girl throws time pieces at hat kid without them immediately bfring her, so no, not headcanon. you also literally said that the mafia are just there to explain stuff.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

again, why would we assume it sends you back in time (as in teleported to the year which it happened) rather than duplicating the thoughts and dreams in the current time? all that's said is that time rifts are filled with thoughts and dreams, nothing says that it's taking hat kid to the past. the mafia's thoughts and dreams can be about the past. hat kid's just put inside a representation, as i said. also those storybooks are pretty much all revolved around a single character. here are the explanations for every story book:

with this much against your point you absolutely cannot say that anything here proves it. this next point is also contradicted by every rift. you can interact with mafia boss, conductor/grooves, snatcher, vanessa, mustache girl, walrus captain, and rumbi before you do any of their rifts. so why would we assume it instantly bfrs if only one or two mafia were possibly bfred compared to the many who aren't?

conductor/grooves have no clue how potent it is and are probably just assuming, even if we take that at face value that's at the very most 60 or so years, nowhere near the thousands from the mafia.

and i just explained why it's relevant.

this entire section falls flat once you realize that what you said only proves my point. the single mafia goon didn't remember all of the details so most of it was unfilled, if the time rift teleported hat kid to the past then it would be nearly perfect in representation. viewing the past =/= time travel, my analogy addresses this.

60 or so years is barely a portion of thousands.

mustache girl throws time pieces at hat kid without them immediately bfring her, so no, not headcanon. you also literally said that the mafia are just there to explain stuff.

Because in the name it's a rift in time back to their memory. Hence the events of the storybook that shows things one's memory shouldn't know of. It literally says after the thoughts and dreams thing that you are looking back to mafia's past. The storybooks being revolved around a single character further proves my point that time rifts are species based cause again, subcons do not know about Snatcher and Vanessa's backstory yet those portions exist in their time rifts.

There's nothing against my point, the storybooks actually go against your point, yes you can interact with them before you do the rifts, what does this debunk? Quote where I said the time pieces hit them, my argument is that it centers the history of the species not the character you admitting they weren't BFR'd literally proves my point that it's not centered to specifically one's mind. It instantly BFRs upon landing, the Mafia member literally mentions that, and the entire concept behind the time rifts is they were done via time pieces landing and breaking on either a persons head or breaking in a random area. It's literally stated, I have no idea how you missed this.

Yeah no, I refuse this excuse. There would be no reason for GFB to write this down and then never state afterwards Conductor and DJ Grooves was wrong, to claim they're wrong requires objective proof, otherwise this is hitchen's razor and can be dismissed.

No you didn't.

It objectively does not prove your point. "The single mafia goon did not remember all the details" is pure headcanon and my side is far more supported when you get entire backstories and panels that certain people would've never been able to view.

You've conceded to the notion that it goes back years into the past, thus you cannot suddenly nitpick with "oh but it's this specific set of years".

All that would state is Hat Kid resists, which is further backed up by the way Mustache Girl actually needing to BFR her is by throwing a time piece to the ground rather then at Hat Kid. Rex, what in gods name does this debunk? Yes he's there to explain stuff, ok, why the **** does that suddenly debunk him literally stating he got sent into the rift because the time piece broke on his head?

None of my prior claims were debunked and it seems you're actually misunderstanding my argument with some of your points.

 

[TheRexor28]

Because in the name it's a rift in time back to their memory. Hence the events of the storybook that shows things one's memory shouldn't know of. It literally says after the thoughts and dreams thing that you are looking back to mafia's past. The storybooks being revolved around a single character further proves my point that time rifts are species based cause again, subcons do not know about Snatcher and Vanessa's backstory yet those portions exist in their time rifts.

There's nothing against my point, the storybooks actually go against your point, yes you can interact with them before you do the rifts, what does this debunk? Quote where I said the time pieces hit them, my argument is that it centers the history of the species not the character you admitting they weren't BFR'd literally proves my point that it's not centered to specifically one's mind. It instantly BFRs upon landing, the Mafia member literally mentions that, and the entire concept behind the time rifts is they were done via time pieces landing and breaking on either a persons head or breaking in a random area. It's literally stated, I have no idea how you missed this.

Yeah no, I refuse this excuse. There would be no reason for GFB to write this down and then never state afterwards Conductor and DJ Grooves was wrong, to claim they're wrong requires objective proof, otherwise this is hitchen's razor and can be dismissed.

No you didn't.

It objectively does not prove your point. "The single mafia goon did not remember all the details" is pure headcanon and my side is far more supported when you get entire backstories and panels that certain people would've never been able to view.

You've conceded to the notion that it goes back years into the past, thus you cannot suddenly nitpick with "oh but it's this specific set of years".

All that would state is Hat Kid resists, which is further backed up by the way Mustache Girl actually needing to BFR her is by throwing a time piece to the ground rather then at Hat Kid. Rex, what in gods name does this debunk? Yes he's there to explain stuff, ok, why the **** does that suddenly debunk him literally stating he got sent into the rift because the time piece broke on his head?

None of my prior claims were debunked and it seems you're actually misunderstanding my argument with some of your points.

the name means barely anything, and no, he says that he likes to experience his past, he never says that you've been teleported to the past. you can experience the past through thoughts and dreams without sending yourself back in time. the time rift for vanessa's backstory has no known person who was hit, the only option is vanessa.

There's nothing against my point, the storybooks actually go against your point

all you did here was say "no u lmao gottem". it completely debunks purple time rifts being for an entire species, and even with those few times that contradict my point, using those against me would be cherry picking, but sure, go on. how does purple time rifts being for entire species even prove any of your points?

my argument is that it centers the history of the species not the character

which i just disproved and you ignored.

you admitting they weren't BFR'd literally proves my point that it's not centered to specifically one's mind.

no, that just means it doesn't bfr people instantly. how the hell did you draw this conclusion? there is no correlation between these things.

It instantly BFRs upon landing ... It's literally stated, I have no idea how you missed this.

you just contradicted yourself, you completely ignored my entire argument, you cherrypicked the one specific character who gets bfr'd by the timepieces as evidence, i pointed out literally every other character who doesn't get bfr'd, and you said "nope, cherrypicked mafia proves you wrong".
the mafia says nothing about that, all he says is that when it hit him it was filled with his thoughts and dreams. if it's literally stated, then show me a scan. the time piece also hits every other character on the head and doesn't bfr them, you again cherrypicked the only guy who's instantly bfr'd.

the entire concept behind the time rifts is they were done via time pieces landing and breaking on either a persons head or breaking in a random area.

this proves nothing, so what if the concept is designed around hitting someone's head/the floor? it doesn't bfr instantly ever except for one cherrypicked time and an attack from someone who has competent knowledge of the time pieces and how to use them.

didn't disprove that the time pieces haven't been shown to extend beyond those 60 or so years which was my main point.

yes i did, and you ignored arguments and cherrypicked proof in order to reach a wrong conclusion.

no it isn't, memories decay over time, mafia aren't exempt because it happens to support your point, those panels are cherry picked, those storybooks were specifically from vanessa, snatcher, etc., characters who DO have those memories.

you're strawmanning, i never said it was restricted to those specific 60 years, i just said that the cap is 60 years, assuming that thousands of years of time jumping with just one time piece is NLF.

she resists bfr yet she can be bfr'd, what is this logic? throwing the time piece directly at hat kid would create a rift themed around her which wouldn't be ideal for mustache girl, so no. if it didn't require intent then whenever mustache girl throws a time piece and misses it would make a rift, she clearly knows how to make the time pieces not make rifts, so that pretty much entirely debunks the bfr resistance thing.

pretty much all of them debunked you in some way, so you cherry picked your way to a wrong conclusion, and ignored them if you couldn't. you made maybe like, 2 good points, and they were very minor.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

the name means barely anything, and no, he says that he likes to experience his past, he never says that you've been teleported to the past. you can experience the past through thoughts and dreams without sending yourself back in time. the time rift for vanessa's backstory has no known person who was hit, the only option is vanessa.


all you did here was say "no u lmao gottem". it completely debunks purple time rifts being for an entire species, and even with those few times that contradict my point, using those against me would be cherry picking, but sure, go on. how does purple time rifts being for entire species even prove any of your points?

which i just disproved and you ignored.

no, that just means it doesn't bfr people instantly. how the hell did you draw this conclusion? there is no correlation between these things.

you just contradicted yourself, you completely ignored my entire argument, you cherrypicked the one specific character who gets bfr'd by the timepieces as evidence, i pointed out literally every other character who doesn't get bfr'd, and you said "nope, cherrypicked mafia proves you wrong".
the mafia says nothing about that, all he says is that when it hit him it was filled with his thoughts and dreams. if it's literally stated, then show me a scan. the time piece also hits every other character on the head and doesn't bfr them, you again cherrypicked the only guy who's instantly bfr'd.

this proves nothing, so what if the concept is designed around hitting someone's head/the floor? it doesn't bfr instantly ever except for one cherrypicked time and an attack from someone who has competent knowledge of the time pieces and how to use them.

didn't disprove that the time pieces haven't been shown to extend beyond those 60 or so years which was my main point.

yes i did, and you ignored arguments and cherrypicked proof in order to reach a wrong conclusion.

no it isn't, memories decay over time, mafia aren't exempt because it happens to support your point, those panels are cherry picked, those storybooks were specifically from vanessa, snatcher, etc., characters who DO have those memories.

you're strawmanning, i never said it was restricted to those specific 60 years, i just said that the cap is 60 years, assuming that thousands of years of time jumping with just one time piece is NLF.

she resists bfr yet she can be bfr'd, what is this logic? throwing the time piece directly at hat kid would create a rift themed around her which wouldn't be ideal for mustache girl, so no. if it didn't require intent then whenever mustache girl throws a time piece and misses it would make a rift, she clearly knows how to make the time pieces not make rifts, so that pretty much entirely debunks the bfr resistance thing.

pretty much all of them debunked you in some way, so you cherry picked your way to a wrong conclusion, and ignored them if you couldn't. you made maybe like, 2 good points, and they were very minor.

Merely saying "it barely means anything" with no elaboration isn't a refute by the highest extents. He likes to experience the past, hence you are taken to said past to the point that you see events that he wasn't even present for. "The only option was Vanessa", Rexor. This is objectively false. The time rift is in an area not even near her manor, she's literally never left her manor. Just because there's no known person doesn't mean anything it's established that a person is hit in the head and BFR'd to the purple time rifts. Just cause we don't know who it is is irrelevant, we know who it isn't via simple process of elimination.


The fact that you completely ignored my argumentation and tried to assert is as a "no u" in itself is a "no u" ironically enough. Especially since I further elaborate on the storybook point.

The text literally says the time piece breaks and hits their head, which pulls them into the realm, arguing that isn't instant when the text clearly implies that is baffling.

You objectively didn't debunk anything nor did I ignore it since I've been refuting it in my refute and you directly quoted said refute. This is dishonesty.

Whose every other character that doesn't get BFR'd? I'd like to know since you haven't established yet or showed official scans of them being hit by time pieces, the best you showed was Hat Kid which we can establish as a resistance from what I explained before.

The mafia literally does say that, you refusing to acknowledge it doesn't mean he didn't say that, "This is Mafia time rift. Time Piece hit Mafia in head, and now time rift filled with Mafia's thoughts and dreams" this literally is stating the time piece hit him and created the time rift which he's now inside of, I don't know how you can interpret that any differently it blatantly says that to you.

Saying "This proves nothing" then proceeding to say something is not something isn't a refute and I can't believe people still think this way you need to apply elaboration which you have failed to do. The floor example literally instantly turns everything black, so your own examples work against you.

That's asking me to prove a ******* negative, what the ****? We've really reached peak here.

I did none of that, dishonesty again.

What even is this refute, you admit it supports my point but then try to say it can't be used... cause it supports my point? What are you even trying to argue here? Clarify yourself better. The storybooks come from time rifts that never land on any of their heads, thus again they support my point.

"I never said it was restricted to 60 years I just said it was restricted to 60 years", define cap without googling it. That's not what a NLF is objectively, define NLF without looking on the wiki's page. People need to stop using fallacies they clearly do not know.

So you just completely misunderstood my argument and tried to trivialize what I said to make your argument look better, once again dishonesty. Yes, she resists BFR, how she got BFR'd is that Mustache Girl BFR'ed the entire room and Hat Kid happened to be inside of it. Think of it as if you can't telekinetically lift someone so instead you lift the thing they're standing on. I don't see how that wouldn't be ideal for Mustache Girl when Hat Kid would be trapped in her own rift and I want to know where this specific rule is ever stated that the person throwing the hourglass is the one who decides who to BFR or not this is a random assumption with no basis. Stop saying you debunked something Rexor you literally ignore context and purposefully misconstruct what a person says, that's not debunking something that's a strawman.

By definition you debunked nothing. All my points were valid and good by definition.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Hat Kid FRA

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Hat Kid fra

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

If it wasn't clear, I vote Hat Kid FRA btw