Hellboy (Franchise) Revision Thread #1 | 8-C Hellboy, further calculations, and more!

[azontr]

To my knowledge KE isn't the default. Like, almost ever.

 

[Omnificence]

@Mr._Bambu, would you mind being the first to evaluate the calculation I provided, please?

 

[Antvasima]

His AP scales from his ability to create storms. I linked that to the References for Common Feats page that goes over the energy required to create storms.

But there are plenty of characters with the ability to control the weather without being able to channel a comparative amount of energy into a punch.

Does he have any physical feats to scale from instead? Also, are other characters currently scaled from him?

 

[Omnificence]

Well, the Ogdru Jahad's children, most notably Katha-Hem, are known for causing destruction to cities and being resistant to most nuclear weapons. Seeing as how Liz Sherman was able to obliterate Katha-Hem and fought The Black Flame with said stats that could be used, right?

 

[Antvasima]

Did the Black Flame's withstand attacks from the full power that she used to obliterate tier 7-B or above monsters? If so, his durability probably scales, but we still need proof for his physical striking strength.

 

[Omnificence]

Yeah. Katha-Hem is one of the Ogdru Hem and based upon what I found, most of the Ogdru Hem are also said to be immune to conventional nuclear weapons. So they would most likely possess the same AP, striking strength, and durability as Katha-Hem. That being said, I suggest a revision for Liz Sherman's profile to where her listed stats are like this:

Attack Potency: At least City Block level (Destroyed a city block as a child), likely City level (was able to destroy several gigantic Ogdru Hem)

Striking Strength: At least City Block Class, likely City Class | City Class

Durability: Human level, at least City Block level, likely City level with shields | City level (Tanked attacks from The Black Flame)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you have misunderstood what striking strength means. It means how hard you can punch something on your own, not via telekinesis, energy blasts, reality warping, or weather manipulation.

 

[Omnificence]

I think that you have misunderstood what striking strength means. It means how hard you can punch something on your own, not via telekinesis, energy blasts, reality warping, or weather manipulation.

What are you saying?

 

[Antvasima]

I mean that unless Liz Sherman can punch the Ogdru Hem to death without using any other powers, she should not have anywhere near City level striking strength, and likely just the same level as her regular human durability.

 

[Omnificence]

I mean that unless Liz Sherman can punch the Ogdru Hem to death without using any other powers, she should not have anywhere near City level striking strength, and likely just the same level as her regular human durability.

So I guess my suggested edits won't work for Liz?

 

[Antvasima]

Her attack potency is probably fine, just not the power of her physical body.

Look, what I have been explaining above is very easy to understand, so I would greatly appreciate if you make a serious effort to do so, and collaborate with me by attempting to make the Hellboy pages as reliable as possible in terms of statistics, as otherwise we might have to delete at least some of them.

 

[Omnificence]

Her attack potency is probably fine, just not the power of her physical body.

Look, what I have been explaining above is very easy to understand, so I would greatly appreciate if you make a serious effort to do so, and collaborate with me by attempting to make the Hellboy pages as reliable as possible in terms of statistics, as otherwise we might have to delete at least some of them.

Oh, I get it. So, more like this:

Tier: At least 8-B, likely 7-B | 7-B

Name: Elizabeth "Liz" Sherman

Origin: Hellboy

Gender: Female

Age: Likely in her 20's

Classification: BPRD Agent

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Fire Manipulation, Forcefields, Flight

Attack Potency: At least City Block level (Destroyed a city block as a child), likely City level (was able to destroy several gigantic Ogdru Hem)

Speed: Unknown | Hypersonic (Flew across New York in combat)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least City Block Class | City Class

Durability: Human level physically, at least City Block level to City level with shields | City level (Tanked attacks from The Black Flame)

Stamina: Superhuman

Range: Standard melee range, higher with flames

Standard Equipment: None notable

Intelligence: Gifted

Weaknesses: None notable

Feats: Respect threads

Key: Base | Amplified Power

So, if these edits are acceptable, do you think you could add them, please?

 

[Antvasima]

No, you still do not understand.

For one thing, she should probably be straight "At least City level" in attack potency, and for the second, unless she destroys the Ogdru Hem by punching them, she should have much lower striking strength and durability (without force fields).

 

[Omnificence]

No, you still do not understand.

For one thing, she should probably be straight "At least City level" in attack potency, and for the second, unless she destroys the Ogdru Hem by punching them, she should have much lower striking strength and durability (without force fields).

@Antvasima Okay, first off, I'm sorry for saying this and don't take offense to it, but I found your previous reply a bit rude when you told me it was "very easy to understand" you and I should "make a serious effort" to understand you.

And second of all, I'm sorry for not getting the edits right. I haven’t been doing much of the big stuff like changing AP or Durability as much as I mostly do some of the minor things like edit intelligence and weaknesses or add missing powers/abilities and categories. In fact, I would rather have the staff apply them to locked profiles. Plus, I would really appreciate it if you could go into a little more detail with your advice on the edits, please.

Thank you.

Anyway, do the revised edits look acceptable now?

Tier: At least 7-B | 7-B

Name: Elizabeth "Liz" Sherman

Origin: Hellboy

Gender: Female

Age: Likely in her 20's

Classification: BPRD Agent

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Fire Manipulation, Forcefields, Flight

Attack Potency: At least City level (Was able to destroy several gigantic Ogdru Hem)

Speed: Unknown | Hypersonic (Flew across New York in combat)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least City Block Class | City Class

Durability: Human level physically, City Block level with shields | City level (Tanked attacks from The Black Flame)

Stamina: Superhuman

Range: Standard melee range, higher with flames

Standard Equipment: None notable

Intelligence: Gifted

Weaknesses: None notable

Feats: Respect threads

Key: Base | Amplified Power

 

[Omnificence]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I am sorry if I have been frustrated here. I just don't know how to explain this in an even easier to understand manner.

How about this then:

Let's take Dumbledore for an example, the very old and physically frail Wizard from Harry Potter. Do you know about him? Let's say that he used magic to create a storm with a comparative energy to splitting a large mountain in half. Doing so would not remotely mean that he has the ability to punch a large mountain in half with one of his hands, which is what striking strength is, and the same principle applies for the Black Flame, Elizabeth Sherman and all other characters in our wiki: We should require proof that their energy blasts, weather manipulation, and other powers scale to the capabilities of their physical bodies.

@Mr._Bambu

Do you have any other ideas regarding how to make him understand what I am talking about?

 

[Omnificence]

I am sorry if I have been frustrated here. I just don't know how to explain this in an even easier to understand manner.

How about this then:

Let's take Dumbledore for an example, the very old and physically frail Wizard from Harry Potter. Do you know about him? Let's say that he used magic to create a storm with a comparative energy to splitting a large mountain in half. Doing so would not remotely mean that he has the ability to punch a large mountain in half with one of his hands, which is what striking strength is, and the same principle applies for the Black Flame, Elizabeth Sherman and all other characters in our wiki: We should require proof that their energy blasts, weather manipulation, and other powers scale to the capabilities of their physical bodies.

@Mr._Bambu

Do you have any other ideas regarding how to make him understand what I am talking about?

Oh okay. So, just because someone has a higher AP doesn't automatically mean it's equal to their striking strength. I get it now; I figured that was the case after I realized some characters on this wiki had striking strength and durability lower than their AP.

 

[Omnificence]

But there are plenty of characters with the ability to control the weather without being able to channel a comparative amount of energy into a punch.

Does he have any physical feats to scale from instead? Also, are other characters currently scaled from him?

Also, I have been thinking about giving The Black Flame another 8-C rating for his second key, because most of the scans I added for his first key were actually during his "Post Resurrection".

 

[Antvasima]

Oh okay. So, just because someone has a higher AP doesn't automatically mean it's equal to their striking strength. I get it now; I figured that was the case after I realized some characters on this wiki had striking strength and durability lower than their AP.

Yes, and the same principle applies to their physical durabilities without using force fields and the like.

Which Hellboy characters need to be adjusted based on this, and what should they scale to instead?

 

[Omnificence]

Yes, and the same principle applies to their physical durabilities without using force fields and the like.

Which Hellboy characters need to be adjusted based on this, and what should they scale to instead?

Well for now, I think we should adjust The Black Flame and Liz Sherman's profiles as they're the only ones that are based on this. I was gonna revise Johann Kraus also in addition, but I won't worry about that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What statistics should they have then?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Apologies, haven't been on the wiki much today. It seems you got through to him. Let me know if I am needed again.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you and no problem.

 

[Omnificence]

Okay. What statistics should they have then?

Well, here's what I got the Black Flame's profile to look like:

Tier: 8-C | 7-B, 7-A with Weather Manipulation

Name: Landis Pope

Origin: Hellboy

Gender: Male

Age: Likely in his 30s

Classification: C.E.O, demon, former human

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Fire Manipulation | Same as before including Flight, Large Size (Type 0; roughly nine feet tall) Electricity Manipulation, Weather Manipulation, Telepathy, Reality Warping, Soul Manipulation, Size Manipulation, Self-Sustenance (Type 2), Life Manipulation, Darkness Manipulation, Teleportation, Resistance to Water (His black fire cannot be extinguished with water) and Precognition

Attack Potency: Building level+ (Killed Roger the Homunculus) | City level (Fought on par with Liz Sherman), Mountain level with Weather Manipulation (Created storms across New York, which would usually require this much energy)

Speed: Supersonic (Should be comparable to Roger the Homunculus) | Hypersonic (Flew across New York quickly while in combat)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: Building Class+ (Caused a skyscraper to collapse with just his sheer speed) | City Class

Durability: Building level+ (Sustained no injury after getting propelled through several skyscrapers) | City level (Emerged completely unscathed from Liz Sherman's fire blast)

Stamina: Superhuman

Range: Standard melee range

Standard Equipment: None Notable

Intelligence: Gifted

Weaknesses: He tends to talk too much for his own good. His unique connection to the Ogdru Jahad and other forces associated with Ereshkigal leaves him vulnerable to certain magic.

Feats: Respect thread

Key: Artificial Suit | Post Resurrection

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

What are the reasons for his City Class striking strength?

 

[Omnificence]

Thank you.

What are the reasons for his City Class striking strength?

Seeing as how Liz defeated Katha-Hem who possesses City level durability dye to its immunity to most nuclear weapons especially the strongest ones listed on this wiki, I figured that it would make sense to scale the Black Flam from that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, and when haver the Black Flame or Liz displayed comparative punching power/striking strength to what they can dish out via telekinesis or otherwise? Please reread my Dumbledore example.

Also, doesn't Liz need force fields to shield her from attacks, and is physically a normal human without her psychic abilities? If so, her durability statistics should reflect this.

 

[Omnificence]

Okay, and when haver the Black Flame or Liz displayed comparative punching power/striking strength to what they can dish out via telekinesis or otherwise? Please reread my Dumbledore example.

Also, doesn't Liz need force fields to shield her from attacks, and is physically a normal human without her psychic abilities? If so, her durability statistics should reflect this.

Well, here's what I made Liz's stats look like so far. I'll let you be the judge of them.
ier: At least 7-B | 7-B

Name: Elizabeth "Liz" Sherman

Origin: Hellboy

Gender: Female

Age: Likely in her 20's

Classification: BPRD Agent

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Fire Manipulation, Forcefields, Flight

Attack Potency: At least City level (Was able to destroy several gigantic Ogdru Hem, which are immune to all nuclear weapons) | City level (Destroyed Katha-Hem)

Speed: Unknown | Hypersonic (Flew across New York in combat)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least City Block Class (Destroyed a city block as a child) | City Class

Durability: Human level physically, City level with shields | City level (Tanked attacks from The Black Flame)

Stamina: Superhuman

Range: Standard melee range, higher with flames

Standard Equipment: None notable

Intelligence: Gifted

Weaknesses: None notable

Feats: Respect threads

Key: Base | Amplified Power

 

[Antvasima]

Why does she have greatly enhanced striking strength? Also, why is her own durability without force shields/fields City level in her second key?

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu

Given that it does not seem possible to get through to Joe and properly make him understand, it is likely impossible for us to get the Hellboy pages to have reliable statistics. As such, would it be better if we delete them all?

 

[Omnificence]

@Mr._Bambu

Given that it does not seem possible to get through to Joe and properly make him understand, it is likely impossible for us to get the Hellboy pages to have reliable statistics. As such, would it be better if we delete them all?

Eh, y-y'know what? Why don't I just revert the edits back to the way they originally were for The Black Flame and Liz Sherman? I'm really sorry for not grasping your ideas and words really well. It seems like I'm still having trouble with getting Liz Sherman's and The Black Flame's profiles right with the edits. For now, I just want to get back on track with Hellboy's profile. The main objective of the revision thread was to get Hellboy to a new tier. I don't wanna burden you with having to deal with the other two profiles.

 

[Omnificence]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I do not understand what is so hard to grasp. Just because somebody can conjure up a storm or fire telekinetic blasts, this does not automatically mean that they are as strong physically, and I need to know whether or not that applies here, that is all.

 

[Omnificence]

I do not understand what is so hard to grasp. Just because somebody can conjure up a storm or fire telekinetic blasts, this does not automatically mean that they are as strong physically, and I need to know whether or not that applies here, that is all.

Oh, well if that's the case, then I guess it would be better to remove the part where it says he created storms.

 

[Antvasima]

Look, I am just saying that his striking strength and durability should not automatically scale from him creating storms or shooting energy blasts, or similar. These statistics have to be scaled from their own physical feats. That's it. I really don't see why this is so hard for you to understand.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Joe. Let me put this in as frank a way as possible.

Nothing can be accepted without absolute proof. Even if the proof itself is subjective, we need proof. We need to scale characters to feats with calcs or, at the very least, official estimations (like what we do with Tornadoes). Giving a character 8-B over seemingly nothing does not work. Pushing for characters to have 8-C with no calcs (even when contradicted) does not work. Similarly, we can't scale all abilities to all physical statistics without evidence of said scaling.

I'm torn here. On the one hand it does seem increasingly unlikely that we can get a reliable statistic out of this. On the other hand, Hellboy should have profiles.

I was considering reading through some of the Hellboy comics as my second dip into capeshit. Maybe I'll try to take it on as a wiki-motivated project instead.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Joe. Let me put this in as frank a way as possible.

Nothing can be accepted without absolute proof. Even if the proof itself is subjective, we need proof. We need to scale characters to feats with calcs or, at the very least, official estimations (like what we do with Tornadoes). Giving a character 8-B over seemingly nothing does not work. Pushing for characters to have 8-C with no calcs (even when contradicted) does not work. Similarly, we can't scale all abilities to all physical statistics without evidence of said scaling.

I'm torn here. On the one hand it does seem increasingly unlikely that we can get a reliable statistic out of this. On the other hand, Hellboy should have profiles.

I was considering reading through some of the Hellboy comics as my second dip into capeshit. Maybe I'll try to take it on as a wiki-motivated project instead.

Do what you wanna do, if you can motivate yourself to go forward with a project then you've done more then me(although it's external reasons I've dropped unfucking Warcraft)

 

[Omnificence]

Look, I am just saying that his striking strength and durability should not automatically scale from him creating storms or shooting energy blasts, or similar. These statistics have to be scaled from their own physical feats. That's it. I really don't see why this is so hard for you to understand.

I'm sorry. You see, the original edits were based off of that and I originally gave him those City level statistics before I added my revisions.

 

[Omnificence]

Look, I understand now. I'm sorry for this inconvenience.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean. Don't worry about it, honestly I take it as my general inability to explain things thoroughly. I can't speak for Ant but I've always had issues like that. I apologize for that.