Mcu Captain marvel downgrade

[OneBleachHurricane]

Yeah, that's why I'm not gonna return to this CRT for a while after this reply

But I've read through it and my overall stance on the downgrade hasn't changed

Is your stance Captain Sue scales to Thanos but is generally weaker same as to how we scale Tony, Worthy Cap (Without using Mjolnir to hit Thanos) , and Thor (Without using Mjolnir or Stormbreaker to hit Thanos)?

Generally weaker but still relative enough to contend with a Prime Thanos physically?

 

[Reyne]

The problem with saying Carol absorbed the guantlet is it has never so much as hinted in any other material. Of the countless statements every characters have gotten, not one has implied Carol did anything other than nearly beat Thanos. The only definitive moment we have of Carol absorbing energy is in the Part Thor episode. Compound that with her visibly not absorbing the guantlet's energy (both Hulk and Thanos were trying to snap and Tony's suit was being damaged/destroyed by the surging energy, something a stronger being like Thanos can endure/overcome; left field, but Nebula wielded the guantlet in concept art, visibly expelling energy, but it was too much for her, much like with Tony bit to a greater degree, for intents sake) and it's a sure fire bet to plainly state: Carol Danvers did not absorb energy from the Infinity Guantlet.

Carol, on screen, does not stack up to how she is treated by the movie makers, this same sentiment is shared by Hela, only in the opposite way. The weakest Hela has ever been when when she casually broke Mjolnir. This does not line up with how she is afterwards portrayed. Doing that means her base strength should allow her to break Thor, but then he breaks out of her grip, and can physically withstand her after she has been getting "exponentially" more powerful for a few hours.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Is your stance Captain Sue scales to Thanos but is generally weaker same as to how we scale Tony, Worthy Cap (Without using Mjolnir to hit Thanos) , and Thor (Without using Mjolnir or Stormbreaker to hit Thanos)?

Generally weaker but still relative enough to contend with a Prime Thanos physically?

great you're making me come back Eh, I'm still unsure about that. But if not for the stuff on Thanos' farm, I wouldn't be opposed

 

[Yokoahh5743]

Or that destroying Hela hammer was Outlier because she was supposed to be able to rival Thor and easily defeat him even in their fight on the Rainbow Bridge. She should be able to knock him down without any difficulty

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

The problem with saying Carol absorbed the guantlet is it has never so much as hinted in any other material. Of the countless statements every characters have gotten, not one has implied Carol did anything other than nearly beat Thanos. The only definitive moment we have of Carol absorbing energy is in the Part Thor episode. Compound that with her visibly not absorbing the guantlet's energy (both Hulk and Thanos were trying to snap and Tony's suit was being damaged/destroyed by the surging energy, something a stronger being like Thanos can endure/overcome; left field, but Nebula wielded the guantlet in concept art, visibly expelling energy, but it was too much for her, much like with Tony bit to a greater degree, for intents sake) and it's a sure fire bet to plainly state: Carol Danvers did not absorb energy from the Infinity Guantlet.

We already have energy absorption on her profile due to guidebook statements and even if she didn’t absorb the energy it would simply be an outlier. Besides I’m pretty sure the only other commentary on there fight was like a off handed statement in wandavision

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Or that destroying Hela hammer was Outlier because she was supposed to be able to rival Thor and easily defeat him even in their fight on the Rainbow Bridge. She should be able to knock him down without any difficulty

Missing the whole point of that Thor got much stronger when he realised his true power and could hold his own against Hela because of that

More importantly, this is derailing so do not bring it up again

Man, why do I keep coming back here

 

[Reyne]

We already have energy absorption on her profile due to guidebook statements and even if she didn’t absorb the energy it would simply be an outlier. Besides I’m pretty sure the only other commentary on there fight was like a off handed statement in wandavision

My issue isn't with her ability to absorb energy. Like Loki, we know she can do more than she shows.

 

[Jaakor48]

Or that destroying Hela hammer was Outlier

This makes no sense

because she was supposed to be able to rival Thor and easily defeat him even in their fight on the Rainbow Bridge. She should be able to knock him down without any difficulty

She DID fodderize him, she still bested him even after he got his awakening boost

We already have energy absorption on her profile due to guidebook statements and even if she didn’t absorb the energy it would simply be an outlier. Besides I’m pretty sure the only other commentary on there fight was like a off handed statement in wandavision

Having absorption on her profile doesn't automatically translate to you claiming she absorbs the gauntlet simply because you can't fathom that she simply isn't that strong.

And exactly is overpowering Thanos an outlier? When has she remotely struggled with anyone else since she got her full powers back?


The fight simply shows her powering up and bringing him to his knees,


And is she were absorbing the entire gauntlet, how exactly was she oneshotted by the power stone alone when she was amped by 5 others? Ignoring the fact that no one anywhere stated that she absorbed anything ?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

She DID fodderize him, she still bested him even after he got his awakening boost

For the record, this is because she grew stronger after getting KOed by Thor's lightning blast

When has she remotely struggled with anyone else since she got her full powers back?

The almost-dead Thanos that could withstand her attacks and overpower her. The 2014 Thanos that tanked her attacks and yeeted her away. The Kree ballistic missile that she was struggling to push backwards

And is she were absorbing the entire gauntlet, how exactly was she oneshotted by the power stone alone when she was amped by 5 others?

Both amps are unquantifiable

Ignoring the fact that no one anywhere stated that she absorbed anything ?

Same goes for this scene, but it is accepted as Energy Absorption on her profile and it can be interpreted as such because the ship was losing energy as Carol was using her powers

I'm here, aren't I. Again

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Having absorption on her profile doesn't automatically translate to you claiming she absorbs the gauntlet simply because you can't fathom that she simply isn't that strong.

And exactly is overpowering Thanos an outlier? When has she remotely struggled with anyone else since she got her full powers back?


The fight simply shows her powering up and bringing him to his knees,


And is she were absorbing the entire gauntlet, how exactly was she oneshotted by the power stone alone when she was amped by 5 others? Ignoring the fact that no one anywhere stated that she absorbed anything ?

How about you read the op this time make an actual argument

 

[Reyne]

Hmm, the Russos stating Captain Marvel is as powerful if not more so than Thor (during the venture to Titan II before the timeskip) does seem to support the notion of a weak Captain Marvel, being as though Thanos stood up immediately after getting blasted by Thor's lightning. Older, slower, weaker, unarmored Thanos who was a tad battle worn and then unharmed by a big lightning bolt, versus the younger, faster, stronger armored Thanos who was fresh and audible pained by the big lightning.

Does Thanos even only use the guantlet to block something in Endgame, when CM blasts him? Even with Tony's focused beams, he'll use a shield and not the uru glove itself.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

slower, weaker

Neither of this is true. The only difference that unarmored Thanos holds back and isn't as brutal

stood up immediately after getting blasted by Thor's lightning

Doesn't mean he wasn't harmed. We already downscale Post-Awakening Thor as a whole from Thanos

Does Thanos even only use the guantlet to block something in Endgame, when CM blasts him?

Yes, because he didn't have the Stones so he can't generate a shield

Even with Tony's focused beams, he'll use a shield and not the uru glove itself.

He used the Stones to block all sorts of attacks that are way inferior to him. That means nothing

 

[Reyne]

By virtue of being more agile, faster, and at the peak of his physical power, according to the VFX artists, 2014 Thanos would be the younger, faster, stronger version and 2018 Thanos would be the older, slower, weaker version.

This is the only time pre-Endgame Stormbreaker Thor uses lightning on someone. Unharmed in the sense that he was left without damage; Captain Marvel left little burn marks, which is what I would consider harm/damage.

I wasn't implying another by it other than Thanos didn't need to use the stones for pretty everything.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Captain Marvel left little burn marks, which is what I would consider harm/damage.

The anti-feats during the farm ambush exist and I don't see burn marks, so no. And this is Thanos after he had taken brutal beatings from Worthy Cap, fought against a huge army of Earth's heroes, took another brutal beating from bloodlusted Scarlet Witch that would have eventually killed him if Sanctuary II didn't interrupt, then strained against Thor and Cap that nearly resulted in his head getting cut off by Stormbreaker

He won't be at peak performance by the time CM attacks him

 

[Reyne]

I think we're thinking of different statements. This is what I was referring to.

There're there if you look for them, but I wasn't making a point of her having better AP, though heat could be a factor. Thanos has tender skin from getting beat to hell, same as on Titan for when Tony makes him bleed. The point was just a comparison between harmed and unharmed from what should be comparable sources.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

ThisI think we're thinking of different statements. is what I was referring to.

That's more usable, but 2018 Thanos is still comparable regardless and Post-Awakening Thor downscales from a non-philosopher 2018 Thanos when he was still battle-armoured and a brutal warlord combatant

 

[Reyne]

How so? It's more diffinitive than "kind of".

Well, that's the stronger Fat Thor 2014 Thanos was fighting.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

How so? It's more diffinitive than "kind of".

That's why I said it's more usable.

Well, that's the stronger Fat Thor 2014 Thanos was fighting.

IW Thor survived attacks from 2018 armoured non-Titan philosopher Thanos at the start of IW, then got tortured by the Power Stone under the threat of death, then had the whole spaceship nuked by the Stone

 

[Reyne]

You see, I can't read.

Oooooh, that. Well, we didn't see the fight. All we know is it was only Thanos, without the Black Order, and that it resulted in Thor getting all bruised. I don't see how that means scales in any other sense than he has taken hits from Thanos, which can be said for other lesser beings.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Oooooh, that. Well, we didn't see the fight. All we know is it was only Thanos, without the Black Order, and that it resulted in Thor getting all bruised. I don't see how that means scales in any other sense than he has taken hits from Thanos, which can be said for other lesser beings.

Because Thor's AP scales to his Durability for fighting and holding his own against characters that can harm him like Hela, and his Durability can take attacks from Thanos, who only started holding back more after removing his armour and gathering more Stones

 

[Lacku]

Goddamn a lot of discussion has happened since I took a break from this thread. I still stand by Captain Marvel scaling to the likes of Mark 80 Iron Man, Thor, Worthy Cap, etc. but I will admit there is a good argument made here for Carol actually being weaker. To me, it makes way more sense for Carol to be among these high tiers given how MCU official sources describe and view her, the way she's presented in the story and how you need to really analyse her scenes in Endgame in great detail to prove that she could possibly be weaker than her current ratings. Still a lot of these points are hard to counter. Where are we at now with the whole CRT?

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Goddamn a lot of discussion has happened since I took a break from this thread. I still stand by Captain Marvel scaling to the likes of Mark 80 Iron Man, Thor, Worthy Cap, etc. but I will admit there is a good argument made here for Carol actually being weaker. To me, it makes way more sense for Carol to be among these high tiers given how MCU official sources describe and view her, the way she's presented in the story and how you need to really analyse her scenes in Endgame in great detail to prove that she could possibly be weaker than her current ratings. Still a lot of these points are hard to counter. Where are we at now with the whole CRT?

Not that far, marvel is the only mod that has actually given his thoughts on the crt and Qaw has decided to stay out of it until the whole sun thing with carol is resolved. So far no other mods have come to the thread

 

[Reyne]

Goddamn a lot of discussion has happened since I took a break from this thread. I still stand by Captain Marvel scaling to the likes of Mark 80 Iron Man, Thor, Worthy Cap, etc. but I will admit there is a good argument made here for Carol actually being weaker. To me, it makes way more sense for Carol to be among these high tiers given how MCU official sources describe and view her, the way she's presented in the story and how you need to really analyse her scenes in Endgame in great detail to prove that she could possibly be weaker than her current ratings. Still a lot of these points are hard to counter. Where are we at now with the whole CRT?

The Marvels seems to indicate Carol's glow more or less determines her power. Like, no glow brings her down to like sub super soldier level. Going by AoS, Kree are Asgardian level, so a bit above that. She is brighter than ever when she re-energized Hala's sun, even more so than when she busted up Sanctuary II. I wonder what will become of the Quantum bands going forward. They needed an exterior power source, right? Phyla-Vel seems to have energy powers, so I reckon they'll go "wrist and wrist" with her.

 

[Lacku]

So what are we planning to change Carols AP to?

also if she does end up being Star level thanks to The Marvels what does that mean for everybody that we're claiming she's weaker than in this thread

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

So what are we planning to change Carols AP to?

also if she does end up being Star level thanks to The Marvels what does that mean for everybody that we're claiming she's weaker than in this thread

There still just waiting for better scans or whatever

Nothing really, carol has still shown to generally be weaker then thanos and I’m pretty sure there’s a statement about her doing from using the gauntlet if anything there’s gonna be a lot of upgrades depending on how this goes

 

[Reyne]

There still just waiting for better scans or whatever

Nothing really, carol has still shown to generally be weaker then thanos and I’m pretty sure there’s a statement about her doing from using the gauntlet if anything there’s gonna be a lot of upgrades depending on how this goes

If you can find a statement on Carol using the guantlet, you may just end being the world's greatest detective.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Going by AoS, Kree are Asgardian level, so a bit above that.

Note: Do not scale characters appearing in MCU movies to the Kree Watch and Kree Reapers, as they are from a separate continuity (Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.)

So what are we planning to change Carols AP to?

also if she does end up being Star level thanks to The Marvels what does that mean for everybody that we're claiming she's weaker than in this thread

The most solid scaling right now outside of her feat in The Marvels is destroying the Sanctuary II + forcing Ronan and the Kree warships to retreat.

The latter could have some arguable Tier 6 scaling if the Kree ballistic missile calc wasn't deleted

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

If you can find a statement on Carol using the guantlet, you may just end being the world's greatest detective.

I might have misrembered the full statment but I think I found it

Q: Why Iron Man has to be the one to do the final snap, couldn’t the people like Thor, Star-Lord or Captain Marvel whom all previously have handled the power of Infinity Stones done it instead?

A: Thor in this movie couldn’t do it, only Hulk was strong enough to do the snap without dying. We are still not sure whether Captain Marvel can also withstand all the power of Infinity Stones at once. The reason we choose to let Iron Man do it in the end was because he was the closest one to Thanos at the time. In all the futures Doctor Strange foresee, Iron Man was the only one who could get close to Thanos and do the snap. People usually think the death of a hero is a horrible tragedy. But we think this is different. When his death was able to bring back hope, to save half of the universe, then his death was powerful and meaningful. We shouldn’t feel too sad or angry about it.

https://bgr.com/entertainment/avengers-endgame-ending-russo-brothers-on-captain-america-iron-man/

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

doing

I assume you meant dying?

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Correct

 

[Reyne]

I might have misrembered the full statment but I think I found it


https://bgr.com/entertainment/avengers-endgame-ending-russo-brothers-on-captain-america-iron-man/

Oh, that one. I was thinking you found you found a statement on Carol absorbing energy from the guantlet, not wielding it. This statement is baffling given how she's treated and her ability to absorb energy. You'd think the Russos would say she could, but no.

Noting this site's stance on What If scaling, if anyone other than myself used What If Ep5 to scale, and by virtue Zombies 2024, there'll probably be more supporting evidence of Captain Marvel being weak af. She's a zombie, while Hulk and Thor might not be.

At this rate, The Marvel's will be on Disney+ before those show up. That's like 3 months until calcs used for this site should show up? Wakanada 4ever was Nov 11 to Feb 1, so there abouts.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I might have misrembered the full statment but I think I found it


https://bgr.com/entertainment/avengers-endgame-ending-russo-brothers-on-captain-america-iron-man/

Where does that say captain marvel absorbed the energy from the nano gauntlet?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Where does that say captain marvel absorbed the energy from the nano gauntlet?

I’m pretty sure there’s a statement about her [dying] from using the gauntlet

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

First its kind a weird how the statement about her being the most powerful character doesnt count but this one does.
Second it says "We are still not sure whether Captain Marvel can also withstand all the power of Infinity Stones at once", she might be able to or not.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

the statement about her being the most powerful character

2-B/Low 1-C Captain Marvel definitely obviously totally makes sense

 

[Reyne]

First its kind a weird how the statement about her being the most powerful character doesnt count but this one does.
Second it says "We are still not sure whether Captain Marvel can also withstand all the power of Infinity Stones at once", she might be able to or not.

On Screen > Out of Verse

But then the Externals use Ikaris' cloud feat to upscale their wall level arses. Potato potato. Man, imagine a world where Phastos did have a vibranium table, and Ikaris casually put a big dent in it. That's probably the world where Thor 4 was good and Quicksilver didn't have smokers lung level endurance.

 

[Lacku]

Tbf if you can't prove that Carol was absorbing energy from the Nano Gauntlet to be stronger than Thanos this CRT kinda falls apart. We could probably just give her variable AP if it comes down to it, capping at above a tired Thanos since she could no-sell a headbutt from him.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

We cant scale her to dormamu or the celestials but this tells us that she should be more powerful than Thanos.
Also why would her feats in The MArvels scale to Thanos? That makes no sense.

 

[Reyne]

Tbf if you can't prove that Carol was absorbing energy from the Nano Gauntlet to be stronger than Thanos this CRT kinda falls apart. We could probably just give her variable AP if it comes down to it, capping at above a tired Thanos since she could no-sell a headbutt from him.

The best defense a character can have for scaling is variable output, like Hulk. I used to reason that Carol has been getting stronger over time, but then she splits a black hole in the credits, so I guess not. Some book for people who are learning English says it seemed as if Thanos' strength doubled when he threw Carol away, and that their strength was even when she was keeping his fingies apart. I used to reason (somewhat do still) that Carol used her flight to leverage Thanos down. His legs are just consistantly garbage, with Thor forcing the taller grape down to his knees while only slowly over powering his one arm. Thanus skipped leg day.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

We cant scale her to dormamu or the celestials but this tells us that she should be more powerful than Thanos.

No, it tells us that WoG statements are not always a 100% reliable source. There's a reason why Namor and Adam Warlock don't scale to Thor/Captain Marvel

We could probably just give her variable AP if it comes down to it

I can see something like 9-B normally, higher up to [Tier] with Energy Manipulation