misconception about DC comic supreme being.

[Swanyee9t76]

Hello, everyone. Today, I want to address a critical discussion about debunking certain DC cosmological misconceptions, specifically regarding the Light of Creation, the Source, the Presence, and the Overvoid, while re-establishing the original interpretations. This thread will primarily focus on the Overvoid.

Given the numerous misunderstandings surrounding supreme hierarchical entities like the Source, the Presence, the Overvoid, and God, I’ll do my best to clarify and correct these misconceptions.

“Source as an Aspect of the Presence”​

In modern discussions, many claim that the Source is an aspect of the Presence simply because both entities share the same position, as affirmed in Death Metal. However, the Source has evolved into the “light of creation” in the current era, a concept directly stated multiple times and indirectly confirmed in JLA #4, where the Overvoid is described as becoming the light of creation.

This shift led comic readers to notice the absence of the Presence, ultimately concluding that the Presence is the Supreme Being.

There seems to be significant confusion surrounding this topic, so let me clarify using the writers’ interpretations of the Presence and the Source.

Writers’ Perspectives on the Presence and the Source​

Scott Snyder, author of Justice League 2018 and the Death Metal series, has repeatedly implied—particularly in discussions with Imaginary Axis—that the Source and the Presence are the same entity. He views the Presence as interchangeable within the greater omniverse and describes both connective energies and crisis energies as emerging from the Source/Presence.

Grant Morrison, who wrote Final Crisis and The Multiversity, interprets the Presence as a manifestation of something within the Sphere of the Gods. DC publications have acknowledged that while the Presence might be the most powerful entity in the multiverse, it may not hold that status within the greater omniverse.However, more recent affirmations suggest that the Presence is indeed the Supreme Being of the greater omniverse.

Additional external guidebooks claim that the Presence is a force beyond the Source, which created the multiverse, while the Source is described as a manifestation of something or someone. Contrasting Interpretations;

Despite these varying interpretations, a crucial point emerges:
Grant Morrison’s works suggest the Presence is a manifestation by someone, while Scott Snyder’s narratives imply the Presence reshaped Perpetua’s multiverse during her eons of imprisonment. This notion aligns with the Death of the New Gods event, where the Source descended as a yin-yang orb to shape the multiverse as an agent. Both the Source and the Presence share strikingly similar stories of manifesting and reshaping the multiverse.

In Death Metal #1, it was stated that the energies were born from both the Presence and the Source, indirectly affirming their unity. Yet, some readers argue that they are distinct entities.

DC publications further complicate matters by stating that the Presence transcends the Source, which created the multiverse, while a writer for The Unexpected suggested that the Source surpasses the Presence, shaping the Sphere of the Gods.

Spectre Vol 3 further supports the evidence. During Spectre's investigation into the mystery of the Presence, he encounters the Source, which appears as a flaming hand and unveils the true nature of God. This revelation exposes that the Source and the Presence are one and the same, both directly connected to God.

These interpretations present similar ideas but assign opposite roles to each entity.

Unified Essence: The Source and the Presence When analyzed carefully, it becomes evident that the Presence and the Source share the same position and a parallel manifestation history. Returning to Death Metal #1, Scott Snyder seems to treat the Presence as another name for the Source, or vice versa. Regardless of perspective, it becomes clear that the Source and the Presence are the same essence—one identical entity with different names.

Source and Presence as true forms :​

• Source resided at the pinnacle of the cosmic hierarchy and served as the center of the greater omniverse, encompassing all multiverses generated by the unseen council by using energy. Is the one who dispatched Perpetua to create the multiverse.

• The Presence stated to be pinnacle of greater omniverse as well, is the source of energies which unseen hands used to create multiverses. Is also the one who dispatched Perpetua ( they shares the same history ).

Source and Presence as lesser manifestations :

• Source came down as yin-yang orb to keep balance the multiverse.

• The Presence manifested himself into multiverse to keep balance, various times. * They shared same functions, even in lesser manifestations )

In conclusion, they shared the same functionality and they aslo shared the same functionality when they manifested inside the multiverse to reshape.

Why the “Source” and the “Overvoid” Aren’t the Same.​

In Grant Morrison’s interview with IGN, the Source and the Overvoid are described as the same entity. The Multiversity map also places them in the same position, beyond the Source Wall. This interpretation seems consistent until we examine Morrison’s perspective, where the Source is merely an aspect of God residing at the highest sphere of cosmology.

This creates a contradiction with the IGN interview, which equates the Source with the Overvoid, both being referred to as God. Some overlook Morrison’s claim that the “page” can represent God, the Source, God’s mind, or anything else you interpret it to be. Ultimately, Morrison suggests that the “page” itself is God, and the white page is a form of God. Notably, Morrison never directly refers to the Overvoid as a white page but describes the Source as a white page itself.

While one might argue that “both are pages,” Morrison explicitly defines the Overvoid as a transparent void, neither white nor dark.
Grant Morrison’s Interpretation of the Void in the 2018-2019 Green Lantern era, the concept emerged that the Source originated from the Great Darkness. Simultaneously, Morrison presented the idea that the Overvoid encompasses all light voids and represents light as an omni-awareness in a non-dualistic sense.

Additionally, the origin of GL states that only the void existed before the Source. While some might argue this void is the Great Darkness, current canon defines the Great Darkness as the absence of the Source, whereas the void preceding the Source is the self-referential void.

Kirby’s Vision and the Manifestation of the Source:

As for why Grant Morrison equates the Source with the Overvoid, it ties back to Jack Kirby’s ideas and the origins of the New Gods. The DC Encyclopedia describes the Source as a manifestation, and records from New Genesis indicate that the Source either created the universe or created itself. This supports the idea that the Source is a direct manifestation or incarnation of the Overvoid, which is why Morrison uses terms like “Overvoid/Source.” The key distinction between the two is that:

• The Overvoid is God, the infinite consciousness without definition or limitations and encompassing all.
• The Source is not God, but rather a part of God or a manifestation of the Overvoid’s will.

In Conclusion, Grant Morrison’s perspective provides clarity: while the Source and the Overvoid share similarities and connections, they are fundamentally distinct. The Overvoid is the true supreme entity, while the Source is a powerful, manifested aspect within DC cosmology.

We are in important part, which is

" Overvoid is Light of creation "​

the idea of Overvoid being Light was popular during the JLI#4 which is part of dark crisis series, In this case I'd attempt to debunk this case as far as I can.

Analysis of Justice League Incarnate #4: Origins RevisitedIn Justice League Incarnate #4, DC revisits its origin story, attempting to connect the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths to the present timeline. At first glance, this narrative seems consistent, but closer examination reveals significant inconsistencies.

The Role of the Great Darkness (TGD)

The issue claims that TGD manipulated all major crises in DC’s history:
• Barbatos is described as TGD’s avatar. ( Meanwhile he's an avater of Perpetua )
• Mandrakk is said to have been corrupted by TGD. ( Meanwhile, he was corrupted by stories and he only locked himself in chain of darkness after corruption )
• All crises were allegedly orchestrated by TGD.

While this initially appears plausible, a critical moment occurs when John enters the Great Darkness. There, TGD denies responsibility for these crises, revealing instead that Pariah was brainwashed—but not by TGD.

This raises the question: Who was truly behind these events is Vandal Savage, Evidence suggests Vandal Savage, played a pivotal role. In Legion of Doom vs. Justice League #5, Vandal Savage claims the Great Darkness never existed and that he fabricated these false timelines. An intriguing detail emerges: Savage wields the power of darkness, a feat otherwise unique to Pariah. This implies that Savage manipulated Pariah to harness the power of darkness. While this theory is compelling, the evidence of JLI#4 and Great Darkness isn't playing through multiverse insufficient to confirm it definitively.

Perpetua’s Role in the Crises:

Adding complexity, Death Metal #2 by Scott Snyder explicitly states that Perpetua is the true orchestrator of every crisis. She is referred to as the “mother of all crises,” a claim supported by multiple DC publications. This directly undermines the assertion in JLI #4 that TGD was responsible for these events. Instead, it suggests that the Great Darkness had no active role in these crises, reinforcing Perpetua’s pivotal role. The Flaw in the Overvoid and Timeline Discrepancies, The flaw in the Overvoid is described in JLI #4 as a crack in the perfection of light, allegedly caused by the Great Darkness’s scream. However, this contradicts previously established events:

1. Inconsistency with the Overvoid’s Flaw:
When the Overvoid noticed the flaw on its surface, it manifested as Dax Novu to investigate the multiverse. Dax discovered life, heroes, death, and stories, but was corrupted by the flaw’s creatures.

2. Multiverse Formation Timeline:
JLI #4 suggests that the multiverse formed when the flaw appeared. Yet, established lore indicates life emerged 4 billion years in the timeline of multiverse. Which basically mean Overvoid noticed the flaw after the multiverse was formed for bilion of years but JLI#4 provide otherwise. This creates a timeline conflict, calling the reliability of JLI #4’s origin narrative into question. Like The Overvoid as the light Being Despite inconsistencies in JLI #4, it remains consistent with one core idea: light emerging from darkness. This aligns with prior origins and avoids contradictions.

Finally, we must emphasize the Overvoid’s supreme nature as described by Grant Morrison:
• The Overvoid transcends all contradictions and the three laws of thought.

“This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with “God.” However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God.” (Grant Morrison Arthurmag interview)

“It’s kind of like in Buddhism where there is this pure consciousness that underlies everything, and you can call it god, you can call it the void. It contains everything — all good, all evil, all contradiction, all possibility. Just like the page of a comic.” (Multiversity Wired Interview)

• It represents non-duality and omni-awareness, encompassing all things.
• As a self-referential void, it generates the Source/Presence while remaining beyond all definitions, oppositions, or limitations.
• It stands as the ultimate state of purity, oneness, and infinite awareness.

This "holistic" mode of consciousness (which Luthor experiences briefly at the end of All Star Superman) announces itself as a heartbreaking connection, a oneness, with everything that exists... ( Grant Morrison, all star superman's interview )

This interpretation positions the Overvoid as the true supreme being in DC cosmology, beyond all other entities, including the Source and the Presence.

Conclusion, The origins presented in JLI #4 are riddled with inconsistencies, particularly regarding the role of TGD and the timeline of the multiverse’s formation. While the narrative introduces compelling ideas, its contradictions with established lore render it unreliable. The Overvoid, however, remains consistent as the ultimate supreme being, embodying a state of pure, infinite consciousness.

Some argue that the Overvoid is "afraid of imperfection of flaw." However, Morrison explained that the flaw represents an ink dropped on the page by someone, likely symbolizing a real-life person or entity. The concept of the Overvoid embodying perfect oneness only exists in fiction and does not extend to our reality. Therefore, claiming that the Overvoid cannot be the ultimate oneness because it "fears the ink" is invalid. Ultima also supports this notion, emphasizing that fictional universes can never truly interact with reality.

It should be noted that despite whatever the author may intend, a characters cannot interact with the true Real World that we all live in. The Real World can be simulated by fiction, but it will never be the true reality. Thus, characters that exist in the 'real world' such as The Player (Imscared) would be fictional representations of real people, and not actual real people who exist.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

bumpp

 

[Ebihara]

bumpp

can only bump daily.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

There seems to be significant confusion surrounding this topic, so let me clarify using the writers’ interpretations of the Presence and the Source.

​

Writers do not determine any interpretation as readers can come to the conclusion they want. In other words, what they say is meaningless and only the printed material truly matters.

In Death Metal #1, it was stated that the energies were born from both the Presence and the Source, indirectly affirming their unity. Yet, some readers argue that they are distinct entities.

You've already posted a guidebook stating the Presence is indeed beyond the Source which came after Death Metal. Unless, you want to disclose it due to just being a guidebook then clearly more recent information does support the notion that the Presence is beyond the Overvoid and Source.

DC publications further complicate matters by stating that the Presence transcends the Source, which created the multiverse, while a writer for The Unexpected suggested that the Source surpasses the Presence, shaping the Sphere of the Gods.

A non-exclsuive interview of Michael Julius and Steve Orlando that holds no merit to the actual material. Yeah, this is rather a weak point.

Spectre Vol 3 further supports the evidence. During Spectre's investigation into the mystery of the Presence, he encounters the Source, which appears as a flaming hand and unveils the true nature of God. This revelation exposes that the Source and the Presence are one and the same, both directly connected to God.

It really doesn't? If he were to look for God and the Source was just giving a feel of Godhood then he isn't God, especially since nothing clarifies the matter any further.

.
Unified Essence: The Source and the Presence When analyzed carefully, it becomes evident that the Presence and the Source share the same position and a parallel manifestation history. Returning to Death Metal #1, Scott Snyder seems to treat the Presence as another name for the Source, or vice versa. Regardless of perspective, it becomes clear that the Source and the Presence are the same essence—one identical entity with different names.

Scott Snyder's word isn't supreme nor is he currently head writing things other than Absolute Universe.

Source and Presence as true forms :​

• Source resided at the pinnacle of the cosmic hierarchy and served as the center of the greater omniverse, encompassing all multiverses generated by the unseen council by using energy. Is the one who dispatched Perpetua to create the multiverse.

• The Presence stated to be pinnacle of greater omniverse as well, is the source of energies which unseen hands used to create multiverses. Is also the one who dispatched Perpetua ( they shares the same history ).

The Source position is stated. The Presence by Snyder was used as more of a personal manifestation of the same God hence why it isn't the full entity.

Source and Presence as lesser manifestations :

• Source came down as yin-yang orb to keep balance the multiverse.

No, that's not a manifestation. The story literally says it is the Source. Jim Starlin wanted to give Darkseid his “Thanos” treatment and defy the supreme deity at the time like what he always planned.

• The Presence manifested himself into multiverse to keep balance, various times. * They shared same functions, even in lesser manifestations )

In conclusion, they shared the same functionality and they aslo shared the same functionality when they manifested inside the multiverse to reshape.

In how its worded the manifestation is the Presence ie just an aspect of God.

Why the “Source” and the “Overvoid” Aren’t the Same.​

In Grant Morrison’s interview with IGN, the Source and the Overvoid are described as the same entity. The Multiversity map also places them in the same position, beyond the Source Wall. This interpretation seems consistent until we examine Morrison’s perspective, where the Source is merely an aspect of God residing at the highest sphere of cosmology.

This creates a contradiction with the IGN interview, which equates the Source with the Overvoid, both being referred to as God. Some overlook Morrison’s claim that the “page” can represent God, the Source, God’s mind, or anything else you interpret it to be. Ultimately, Morrison suggests that the “page” itself is God, and the white page is a form of God. Notably, Morrison never directly refers to the Overvoid as a white page but describes the Source as a white page itself.

While one might argue that “both are pages,” Morrison explicitly defines the Overvoid as a transparent void, neither white nor dark.
Grant Morrison’s Interpretation of the Void in the 2018-2019 Green Lantern era, the concept emerged that the Source originated from the Great Darkness. Simultaneously, Morrison presented the idea that the Overvoid encompasses all light voids and represents light as an omni-awareness in a non-dualistic sense.

The Overvoid is very much dual in recent depictions.

Additionally, the origin of GL states that only the void existed before the Source. While some might argue this void is the Great Darkness, current canon defines the Great Darkness as the absence of the Source, whereas the void preceding the Source is the self-referential void.

The scan talks about the Great Darkness as that self-referential Void. This was made clear in Green Lantern as well. If you read the scan properly it answers that;

“The Source, I theorize, is a byproduct of a self-referential void. The Great Darkness could only refer to itself through the absence of another.”

That is literally is saying the Darkness couldn't refer to any other without it being used to describe what it isn't ie Light which the Source is a byproduct of the absence hence the Darkness.


Even the first scan said “from the darkness.”

Kirby’s Vision and the Manifestation of the Source:

As for why Grant Morrison equates the Source with the Overvoid, it ties back to Jack Kirby’s ideas and the origins of the New Gods. The DC Encyclopedia describes the Source as a manifestation, and records from New Genesis indicate that the Source either created the universe or created itself. This supports the idea that the Source is a direct manifestation or incarnation of the Overvoid, which is why Morrison uses terms like “Overvoid/Source.” The key distinction between the two is that:

• The Overvoid is God, the infinite consciousness without definition or limitations and encompassing all.
• The Source is not God, but rather a part of God or a manifestation of the Overvoid’s will.

Creator is not mentioned to be the “Overvoid” which literally contradicts the story the Overvoid had no idea what the Multiverse was and it was clarified it was an act from the Great Darkness causing the Flaw. So, the Overvoid isn't the Creator.

Outdated scans and description of the Overvoid show it isn't truly “infinite.”

In Conclusion, Grant Morrison’s perspective provides clarity: while the Source and the Overvoid share similarities and connections, they are fundamentally distinct. The Overvoid is the true supreme entity, while the Source is a powerful, manifested aspect within DC cosmology.

Where is your source for this?

The Role of the Great Darkness (TGD)​

The issue claims that TGD manipulated all major crises in DC’s history:
• Barbatos is described as TGD’s avatar. ( Meanwhile he's an avater of Perpetua )

More like a pawn, not so much an avatar.

• Mandrakk is said to have been corrupted by TGD. ( Meanwhile, he was corrupted by stories and he only locked himself in chain of darkness after corruption )

In the scan and in reference they meant Dax Novu, but it clearly shows Rox Omaga. So it really doesn't contradict anything.

• All crises were allegedly orchestrated by TGD.

While this initially appears plausible, a critical moment occurs when John enters the Great Darkness. There, TGD denies responsibility for these crises, revealing instead that Pariah was brainwashed—but not by TGD.

Pariah wasn't prominent until the first crisis. He wouldn't have orchestrated the event itself since he didn't control or brainwash the Anti-Monitor. Hence why he's degrading nature made him delusion into starting a crisis himself to bring back the Pre-Crisis Multiverse. At the very least everything up until Swamp Thing was the Darkness. I mean Constantine states that why had he returned implying that he's been within Creation which we see the Swamp Thing story covered and that was no fraction of the Darkness, it was the Darkness itself.

This raises the question: Who was truly behind these events is Vandal Savage, Evidence suggests Vandal Savage, played a pivotal role. In Legion of Doom vs. Justice League #5, Vandal Savage claims the Great Darkness never existed and that he fabricated these false timelines. An intriguing detail emerges: Savage wields the power of darkness, a feat otherwise unique to Pariah. This implies that Savage manipulated Pariah to harness the power of darkness. While this theory is compelling, the evidence of JLI#4 and Great Darkness isn't playing through multiverse insufficient to confirm it definitively.

I can tell you got this from Michael Julius. If you want to know something about the story. There is a villain called the Darkness which isn't to be confused with the Great Darkness of the same name.

Finally, we must emphasize the Overvoid’s supreme nature as described by Grant Morrison:
• The Overvoid transcends all contradictions and the three laws of thought.

No, it doesn't. You can make claims like this without any evidence.

• It represents non-duality and omni-awareness, encompassing all things.
• As a self-referential void, it generates the Source/Presence while remaining beyond all definitions, oppositions, or limitations.
• It stands as the ultimate state of purity, oneness, and infinite awareness.

That's frankly outdated.

Some argue that the Overvoid is "afraid of imperfection of flaw." However, Morrison explained that the flaw represents an ink dropped on the page by someone, likely symbolizing a real-life person or entity. The concept of the Overvoid embodying perfect oneness only exists in fiction and does not extend to our reality. Therefore, claiming that the Overvoid cannot be the ultimate oneness because it "fears the ink" is invalid. Ultima also supports this notion, emphasizing that fictional universes can never truly interact with reality.

The Overvoid wasn't afraid of stories. That was Dax Novu. It was just curious and cautious. Though, the narrative bends around.

 

[Elizio33]

Most of what is known about The Overvoid is outdated and it is now equated with The Light, just like The Source which is the product of a self-referential void which is The Great Darkness as VeryGoofyToddler2 pointed out.

The Presence has always been referred to as God or the Creator, and the "self-referential void" stuffs further prove that The Source/Light is an aspect of that God (or at least a self-manifestation when it first opened its mouth to describe all things into existence)

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Writers do not determine any interpretation as readers can come to the conclusion they want. In other words, what they say is meaningless and only the printed material truly matters.

They based on what they've percieved as, doesn't mean it's non-canon. These writers framed up inside the DC editor teams. None of those are meanigless.

You've already posted a guidebook stating the Presence is indeed beyond the Source which came after Death Metal. Unless, you want to disclose it due to just being a guidebook then clearly more recent information does support the notion that the Presence is beyond the Overvoid and Source.

You should know that the one who ordered Perpetua is also The Source, as explicitly stated in the Metal War events. The scan confirmed the same, perhaps referring to a lesser manifestation of The Source, similar to how the Presence is described in DC book.

A non-exclsuive interview of Michael Julius and Steve Orlando that holds no merit to the actual material. Yeah, this is rather a weak point.

It's his interpretation of The Presence. He perceives The Presence as a lesser being existing within God's sphere. I don't see any issue here. Also, who is Michael Julius?

It really doesn't? If he were to look for God and the Source was just giving a feel of Godhood then he isn't God, especially since nothing clarifies the matter any further.

No, it's not? the god that he's looking forward is The Presence, which he believed it as God. When he went to the zeus, Zeus affirmed that the one above all/Presence is The Source. When spectre asked to reveal the nature of The Source, The Source reveals the true nature of God.

Scott Snyder's word isn't supreme nor is he currently head writing things other than Absolute Universe.

He's the one who published the idea of Source and Presence being same entity.

The Source position is stated. The Presence by Snyder was used as more of a personal manifestation of the same God hence why it isn't the full entity.

And that usage is Presence being Source and Source is an manifestation of God too.

No, that's not a manifestation. The story literally says it is the Source. Jim Starlin wanted to give Darkseid his “Thanos” treatment and defy the supreme deity at the time like what he always planned.

It's directy meant to be manifestation of The Source, fair enough.

In how its worded the manifestation is the Presence ie just an aspect of God.

Some storylines suggest that the Source is a manifestation of someone, while others indicate that the Presence serves as a manifestation to maintain multiverse balance. Ultimately, they share the same history and functionality, implying they are the same entity interpreted under two different names, however they are same entity with different names.

The Overvoid is very much dual in recent depictions.

Doesn't fit with the idea of Overvoid being non-dual.

The scan talks about the Great Darkness as that self-referential Void. This was made clear in Green Lantern as well. If you read the scan properly it answers that;

“The Source, I theorize, is a byproduct of a self-referential void. The Great Darkness could only refer to itself through the absence of another.”

That is literally is saying the Darkness couldn't refer to any other without it being used to describe what it isn't ie Light which the Source is a byproduct of the absence hence the Darkness.

No, it's not. The scan later said " For total darkness can be only defined as total absence of light.... of life ", The sentence merely indicates that TGD can only refer to itself due to the absence of a Source; it does not imply that he is a self-referential void by default, as that would contradict the existence of God and Great Darkness never producted The Light rather, it only appeared upon darkness.

Even the first scan said “from the darkness.”

Just because, TGD and the God are primal beings before the Light appeared. Everything was absense before light appeared.

Creator is not mentioned to be the “Overvoid” which literally contradicts the story the Overvoid had no idea what the Multiverse was and it was clarified it was an act from the Great Darkness causing the Flaw. So, the Overvoid isn't the Creator.

Morrison's idea suggests that someone spilled ink on a page, leading to a conflict between the ink and the page itself. This concept is unrelated to the Overvoid not being the creator nor being creator. It reflects Morrison's metafictional approach, focusing on how the ink came into existence. According to fictional lore, Perpetua ,one of many dispatched by the Source to create the multiverse, with the Source currently being generated by a self-referential void known as the Overvoid. Which basically mean, Overvoid is the creator that created the source of all things. And must realize that, Great Darkness casuing the flaw actually has timeline conflictions and some other confliction like Vandal Savage's timelines.

In the scan and in reference they meant Dax Novu, but it clearly shows Rox Omaga. So it really doesn't contradict anything.

They are talking about Mandrakk, Mandrakk is like a title for Rox and Dax as corruption entities.

More like a pawn, not so much an avatar.

Directly stated that, Barbatos is her scion.

Pariah wasn't prominent until the first crisis. He wouldn't have orchestrated the event itself since he didn't control or brainwash the Anti-Monitor. Hence why he's degrading nature made him delusion into starting a crisis himself to bring back the Pre-Crisis Multiverse. At the very least everything up until Swamp Thing was the Darkness. I mean Constantine states that why had he returned implying that he's been within Creation which we see the Swamp Thing story covered and that was no fraction of the Darkness, it was the Darkness itself.

He just released the Anti-Monitor, but the Great Darkness implied that Constantine was thinking upside down especially when he speculated about the Great Darkness returning. No, that's not the case. Some entities within the multiverse might be avatars of the Great Darkness, but they are not the Great Darkness itself. I hope you understand my point—they are distinct entities and even if they aren't, it still contradicted perpetua's role being pivotal in the previous origins.

I can tell you got this from Michael Julius. If you want to know something about the story. There is a villain called the Darkness which isn't to be confused with the Great Darkness of the same name.

Micahel Julius? is that writer or smt? the villian what people percived is TGD but it's not, Vandal was the one who behind these cases. He used fraction of the darkness to create false timelines like Great Darkness ever happended, that's why superheros claimed that " Source of the great darkness "

No, it doesn't. You can make claims like this without any evidence.

Sorry, that was my fault, but it still transcend all contradictions and logically possible thoughts and all things.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

That's frankly outdated.

U don't have any evidence about that being outdated, as all GL's origins suggested that there's only void before the darkness and darkness is the only existence that's placing upon the void, that's why JLI#4 stated that " Light grows and soon, everything was no longer nothing ". Not only that, current canon defiend great darkness total absense of light upon the self-referential void. I don't see any point of Overvoid being omni-awareness being non-canon.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Most of what is known about The Overvoid is outdated and it is now equated with The Light, just like The Source which is the product of a self-referential void which is The Great Darkness as VeryGoofyToddler2 pointed out.

The Presence has always been referred to as God or the Creator, and the "self-referential void" stuffs further prove that The Source/Light is an aspect of that God (or at least a self-manifestation when it first opened its mouth to describe all things into existence)

Just because, they focusing about Source and TGD. No no no... The great darkness isn't self-referential void? because total darkness is the great darkness which is antithesis to totality of light. TGD might be part of self-referential void once, because there's nothing before the source but only god, once Source replaced into it' position, TGD's no longer self-referential void but becomes the antithesis of light.

He's only been refered as omniversal's supreme being. In this case, I'd like u to remind, Greater omniverse was structured by energies that came from Source, which mean Source is the greater omniverse itself but the true essense of the Source resided at the center of greater omniverse. It also existed as highest being at the ladder of hierarchy ( which I've mentioned above ).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

They based on what they've percieved as, doesn't mean it's non-canon. These writers framed up inside the DC editor teams. None of those are meanigless.

No, writers' words have no meaning. The only thing to take into account was what they wrote. They, themselves, do not determine anything. There is a reason why “Death of the Author” exists.

You should know that the one who ordered Perpetua is also The Source, as explicitly stated in the Metal War events. The scan confirmed the same, perhaps referring to a lesser manifestation of The Source, similar to how the Presence is described in DC book.

This is irrelevant. The guidebook states it clear that the Presence was and that guidebook is the more recent of the two. Pick your poison since you can't just randomly nitpick information.

It's his interpretation of The Presence. He perceives The Presence as a lesser being existing within God's sphere. I don't see any issue here. Also, who is Michael Julius?

That's not an official interview nor is it even confirmed to be an actual thing. So if it wasn't intentional that you used it then I recommend you find a legitimate source and not a random fan-made interview.

No, it's not? the god that he's looking forward is The Presence, which he believed it as God. When he went to the zeus, Zeus affirmed that the one above all/Presence is The Source. When spectre asked to reveal the nature of The Source, The Source reveals the true nature of God.

If you haven't read the Spectre story each sentient beings whether human or Gods has a different belief system. Zeus thought Spectre was referring to the Source since the gods were born of the Godwave from the Source while the Spectre had no idea who or what the Source is in conjunction with the Presence.

He's the one who published the idea of Source and Presence being same entity.

Yeah, and he hasn't written anything since. Newer information are out. This should be common sense.

And that usage is Presence being Source and Source is an manifestation of God too.

The Presence being the Source is a fine idea if you take that the Source is just an emanation of God ie the true form of the Presence.

It's directy meant to be manifestation of The Source, fair enough.

Yeah, it's still the Source. Just manifestation through a shape that's comprehensible. The scan speak for itself and isn't as simple as just a lesser Source.

Some storylines suggest that the Source is a manifestation of someone, while others indicate that the Presence serves as a manifestation to maintain multiverse balance. Ultimately, they share the same history and functionality, implying they are the same entity interpreted under two different names, however they are same entity with different names.

Unless your keen on a certain guidebook. Most authors and stories do not use the Presence as just some sort of God that maintains multiversal balance as oppose to being the supreme entity manifesting through aspects like the Source, Overvoid, and the Light of Creation who all are the same lesser of the one true God.

Doesn't fit with the idea of Overvoid being non-dual.

That's not for you to decide with current information.

No, it's not. The scan later said " For total darkness can be only defined as total absence of light.... of life ", The sentence merely indicates that TGD can only refer to itself due to the absence of a Source; it does not imply that he is a self-referential void by default, as that would contradict the existence of God and Great Darkness never producted The Light rather, it only appeared upon darkness.

The “self-referential” means one making a reference to oneself. Which is answered in the next sentence “The Great Darkness can only refer to itself through an abesence of another.” That’s what “self-referential” means making yourself being referred and in this case, the Great Darkness through the Light/Source. I don't know what is hard to grasp here.

Just because, TGD and the God are primal beings before the Light appeared. Everything was absense before light appeared.

Which includes the Overvoid.

Morrison's idea suggests that someone spilled ink on a page, leading to a conflict between the ink and the page itself. This concept is unrelated to the Overvoid not being the creator nor being creator. It reflects Morrison's metafictional approach, focusing on how the ink came into existence. According to fictional lore, Perpetua ,one of many dispatched by the Source to create the multiverse, with the Source currently being generated by a self-referential void known as the Overvoid. Which basically mean, Overvoid is the creator that created the source of all things. And must realize that, Great Darkness casuing the flaw actually has timeline conflictions and some other confliction like Vandal Savage's timelines.

Morrison isn't the head writer here nor is his information up to date. He was clearly fine with Snyder using the Overvoid as just a corrosive void outside Creation and nothing more.

They are talking about Mandrakk, Mandrakk is like a title for Rox and Dax as corruption entities.

Are you not aware that the scan was referencing Final Crisis #7? Who was there at the time? It was Rox Omaga who was the current Mandrakk after using Dax Novu essence. As the scan literally said that in the final moments and in the darkest hours it appeared as Mandrakk which was during the final issue before Superman used the miracle machine.

Even then using what the Darkness said. It was just Pariah using a fraction of the Darkness's power to corrupt beings.

Directly stated that, Barbatos is her scion.

A scion is more like a descendant or the next in line. That's not really an avatar.

He just released the Anti-Monitor, but the Great Darkness implied that Constantine was thinking upside down especially when he speculated about the Great Darkness returning. No, that's not the case. Some entities within the multiverse might be avatars of the Great Darkness, but they are not the Great Darkness itself. I hope you understand my point—they are distinct entities and even if they aren't, it still contradicted perpetua's role being pivotal in the previous origins.

If it contradicts Perpetua then it wouldn't really matter since it is more current information. Through it never clarifies to say Perpetua didn't create the Multiverse which she as well as the Hands had be referred several times meaning what happened and what was known was true.

Micahel Julius? is that writer or smt? the villian what people percived is TGD but it's not, Vandal was the one who behind these cases. He used fraction of the darkness to create false timelines like Great Darkness ever happended, that's why superheros claimed that " Source of the great darkness "

I think you know who. However, the “Great Darkness” in the legion of superheroes wasn't not the primordial shadow. It was just a villain produced as an anomaly from ring which they said was another Great Darkness that existed a thousand years prior referring to the original storyline of Legion of Superheroes in 1984 called the “Darkness Saga” through #280-285. This isn't the same Darkness.

Sorry, that was my fault, but it still transcend all contradictions and logically possible thoughts and all things.

No, it doesn't. You need evidence for this. Calling it non-dual doesn't help your case anymore.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

U don't have any evidence about that being outdated, as all GL's origins suggested that there's only void before the darkness and darkness is the only existence that's placing upon the void, that's why JLI#4 stated that " Light grows and soon, everything was no longer nothing ". Not only that, current canon defiend great darkness total absense of light upon the self-referential void. I don't see any point of Overvoid being omni-awareness being non-canon.

Green Lantern have never stated the darkness was preceded by the Void as much as these stories saying the darkness is the Void. You're completely making a fan theory here.

 

[Xearesay]

Just to add, James Tynion also said the Presence is within the center of Heaven, is powered by belief, and isn’t the supreme creator of the Multiverse in his Justice League Dark guidebook.

 

[Xearesay]

Unless, you want to disclose it due to just being a guidebook then clearly more recent information does support the notion that the Presence is beyond the Overvoid and Source.

lol I’m curious, what recent notion would that be?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Just to add, James Tynion also said the Presence is within the center of Heaven, is powered by belief, and isn’t the supreme creator of the Multiverse in his Justice League Dark guidebook.

Please enlighten us with the references needed.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

lol I’m curious, what recent notion would that be?

The guidebook the OP is referencing stated that the Presence is the fountainhead beyond the Source. That notion alongside the myriads of other information on the Presence being superior to the Light which in this wiki has been accepted as the Overvoid/Source.

 

[Xearesay]

The guidebook the OP is referencing stated that the Presence is the fountainhead beyond the Source. That notion alongside the myriads of other information on the Presence being superior to the Light which in this wiki has been accepted as the Overvoid/Source.

I already read about it, and I don’t know why that statement is taken seriously. Stephen Wiack has never written an actual DC story, and within the index section of that same guidebook he would contradict his statement by saying that the Presence was only supreme to the known multiverse and possibly not to greater omniverse. So his guidebooks really shouldn’t be used at all.

I digress, I think his nature as the divine presence(signifying you are in the presence of God) invokes a connection to the idea of light, where light represents a sort of awakening and enlightenment towards something pure(also God). Through that he can be treated as a being of light whose radiance signifies that you are in Gods presence, which can be seen in many comics like Alan Moores Swamp Thing and even the Lucifer comics.

However, I do still believe the scale at which he operates on as this radiant light figure is not at the pinnacle of the cosmology, and is instead tied down towards the Godsphere and belief systems. Hence why he’s depicted as this shining light at the center of the silver city, sharing that manichean type divide with all of the other heavenly light-based realms to contrast the dark realms. Meaning he’s not absolute in any sense, which should be obvious enough considering he’s ever so frequently shown to be dual, experience change, thwarted by certain powers, unable to reach certain places, and even on occasion self admitting to being bounded, made, and defined by higher powers (cough cough belief).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I already read about it, and I don’t know why that statement is taken seriously. Stephen Wiack has never written an actual DC story, and within the index section of that same guidebook he would contradict his statement by saying that the Presence was only supreme to the known multiverse and possibly not to greater omniverse. So his guidebooks really shouldn’t be used at all.

In the same guidebook he called the Presence the Omniverse supreme ruler. The only time he said otherwise was when he was not “possibly” the ultimate ruler and despite that many more of what he wrote depicts that he is indeed the ultimate figurehead. So really when it comes down to it and DC Greatest Event being the more recent guidebook it is made clear he views the Presence as supreme. Regardless, he isn't an author and guidebooks are meant to be taken with a grain of salt. However, almost every writer always puts the Presence at the top, it's very evident that is their undisclosed rule as an interview with a guy who works for DC makes it clear. Quite clear since America in general is very Christian-centric and most of the writers won't bash a character like the Presence hence why all the scans talking about “God” in some sort lesser isn't in most cases, if ever at all referring to the Presence.

I digress, I think his nature as the divine presence(signifying you are in the presence of God) invokes a connection to the idea of light, where light represents a sort of awakening and enlightenment towards something pure(also God). Through that he can be treated as a being of light whose radiance signifies that you are in Gods presence, which can be seen in many comics like Alan Moores Swamp Thing and even the Lucifer comics.

That's a theory. What isn't a theory is God creating the light that's as simple as it gets especially where the source is rooted from. A diety created creation and the light which in the context of DC fits no other being than the Presence. Several stories have gone over it and it is a bit redundant to say “God created light” since that would be more obvious to the readers and so they do not breach the code of ethics to make it too similar to the Western conception of God. Which Vertigo doesn't hide at all and DC implies it very well.

More so than that a lot of the time “God” is never fully conceptualized as anything other than aspects. If they couldn't comprehend him then he takes shapes for them to as most story talks of avatars, emanation, and any sort lesser form. Its no surprise that almost every writer for DC uses God as an interchangeable terms with the Presence whether it’d be the Presence as an aspect or the Presence as in the ineffable entity beyond comprehension.

However, I do still believe the scale at which he operates on as this radiant light figure is not at the pinnacle of the cosmology, and is instead tied down towards the Godsphere and belief systems. Hence why he’s depicted as this shining light at the center of the silver city, sharing that manichean type divide with all of the other heavenly light-based realms to contrast the dark realms. Meaning he’s not absolute in any sense, which should be obvious enough considering he’s ever so frequently shown to be dual, experience change, thwarted by certain powers, unable to reach certain places, and even on occasion self admitting to being bounded, made, and defined by higher powers (cough cough belief).

You can choose to believe this although the story very much does not support your notion. Especially when every depiction of the Presence predates the Multiverse as a whole which realms of the Sphere are within the boundaries of Creation. It's rather a simple concept yet for some reason seems too hard to believe that “God or the Presence” predates Creation whether he directly created it or created emissaries/servants such as the Hands to do it.

 

[Xearesay]

In the same guidebook he called the Presence the Omniverse supreme ruler. The only time he said otherwise was when he was not “possibly” the ultimate ruler and despite that many more of what he wrote depicts that he is indeed the ultimate figurehead. So really when it comes down to it and DC Greatest Event being the more recent guidebook it is made clear he views the Presence as supreme. Regardless, he isn't an author and guidebooks are meant to be taken with a grain of salt. However, almost every writer always puts the Presence at the top, it's very evident that is their undisclosed rule as an interview with a guy who works for DC makes it clear. Quite clear since America in general is very Christian-centric and most of the writers won't bash a character like the Presence hence why all the scans talking about “God” in some sort lesser isn't in most cases, if ever at all referring to the Presence.

He still contradicted himself and isn’t credible in anyway so my point still stands. Also saying America’s religious and the Presence is God so he has to be supreme, is not a good point to pivot to. DC has written stories featuring dozens of other religious beliefs as equally valid, indicating no real bias or preference, and I’m pretty sure America could give less of a shit about what happens to a random and obscure comic book character like the Presence.

That's a theory. What isn't a theory is God creating the light that's as simple as it gets especially where the source is rooted from. A diety created creation and the light which in the context of DC fits no other being than the Presence. Several stories have gone over it and it is a bit redundant to say “God created light” since that would be more obvious to the readers and so they do not breach the code of ethics to make it too similar to the Western conception of God. Which Vertigo doesn't hide at all and DC implies it very well.

It’s not a theory, it’s largely implied within his name and nature. I even gave you references to comics like Swamp Thing where he’s directly called “the immortal light” and said to be an opposite to darkness.

Also I think what you’re referring to as “the Light” isn’t really a specific and sentient entity, but is more so the totality of a force that is represented on various levels of reality. This is kind of shown through Highfather and other Gods also representing radiant figures on the same dual side as the Presence. Hecate is an even better example since she represents the light of creativity and embodies creation itself, acting as an opposite to the Upside Down Man who as you know, is identified as darkness on multiple occasions and matched the Presence with a mere fraction of his power.

More so than that a lot of the time “God” is never fully conceptualized as anything other than aspects. If they couldn't comprehend him then he takes shapes for them to as most story talks of avatars, emanation, and any sort lesser form. Its no surprise that almost every writer for DC uses God as an interchangeable terms with the Presence whether it’d be the Presence as an aspect or the Presence as in the ineffable entity beyond comprehension.

You can choose to believe this although the story very much does not support your notion. Especially when every depiction of the Presence predates the Multiverse as a whole which realms of the Sphere are within the boundaries of Creation. It's rather a simple concept yet for some reason seems too hard to believe that “God or the Presence” predates Creation whether he directly created it or created emissaries/servants such as the Hands to do it.

Having a more comprehensible form does not unequivocally necessitate being some ineffable ultimate reality like you’re making it out to be. Furthermore, the Presence did not create the Sphere of Gods, as we blatantly see in Justice League Dark that Hecate in her original state acted as the magic surrounding the material world before splitting off into distinct realms, forming the Sphere of Gods. However, these realms and Gods which formed came with their own creation myths, which is where entities like the Presence came from. Coupled with his realm called the Silver City, he represents the maker of creation under his own abrahamic creation myth. However, these stories are still subsidiary to the original as acknowledged by the Lords of Order. So yeah it’s hard to believe, because it’s technically not even true. You’re just deliberately ignoring this aspect of how the cosmology is set up, and extrapolating the Presences myth to encompass the entire cosmology, even though it quite literally does not and cannot work that way. Such a notion also completely contradicts the map of the multiverse since in the Presences creation myth, the silver city would be the highest realm, while the map only has it placed as one of multiple realms within the Sphere of Gods.

 

[Weaver261]

Also saying America’s religious and the Presence is God so he has to be supreme, is not a good point to pivot to. DC has written stories featuring dozens of other religious beliefs as equally valid, indicating no real bias or preference, and I’m pretty sure America could give less of a shit about what happens to a random and obscure comic book character like the Presence.

But the sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that the Judeo-Christian God sits above all others. And then below that you can have your New Gods and your Greek Gods and whoever else you want
- Greg Rucka

You’re just deliberately ignoring this aspect of how the cosmology is set up, and extrapolating the Presences myth to encompass the entire cosmology, even though it quite literally does not and cannot work that way. Such a notion also completely contradicts the map of the multiverse since in the Presences creation myth, the silver city would be the highest realm, while the map only has it placed as one of multiple realms within the Sphere of Gods.

First of all Silver City just holds the voice of The Presence. The Presence itself doesn't reside there. Second, the presence created the light by saying "let there be light". The light grew in the darkness becoming the Overvoid. The Great Darkness becomes aware of itself by witnessing The Light. The Light is also the source. The source is also the overvoid. And the source is also stated to be the power of creator. It's very easy to undestand and obvious.

 

[Xearesay]

First of all Silver City just holds the voice of The Presence. The Presence itself doesn't reside there. Second, the presence created the light by saying "let there be light". The light grew in the darkness becoming the Overvoid. The Great Darkness becomes aware of itself by witnessing The Light. The Light is also the source. The source is also the overvoid. And the source is also stated to be the power of creator. It's very easy to undestand and obvious.

The Voice and the Presence are the same entity. This is evident in Spectre vol 2 where Spectre refers to the Voice as what he believe to be the one true God, and in Dematteis’s Trinity of Sin where phantom stranger addresses the little dog form as both the Voice and Presence interchangeably throughout like, the entire series.

I don’t consider any of what you’re saying obvious. The Overvoid is not light, as it’s explicitly described as beyond such dualities and definitions, and the recent New Gods comic actually pretty much refutes this entire notion by establishing that the Source is a product of the Void referring to itself.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

No, writers' words have no meaning. The only thing to take into account was what they wrote. They, themselves, do not determine anything. There is a reason why “Death of the Author” exists.

This is irrelevant. The guidebook states it clear that the Presence was and that guidebook is the more recent of the two. Pick your poison since you can't just randomly nitpick information.

That's not an official interview nor is it even confirmed to be an actual thing. So if it wasn't intentional that you used it then I recommend you find a legitimate source and not a random fan-made interview.

If you haven't read the Spectre story each sentient beings whether human or Gods has a different belief system. Zeus thought Spectre was referring to the Source since the gods were born of the Godwave from the Source while the Spectre had no idea who or what the Source is in conjunction with the Presence.

Yeah, and he hasn't written anything since. Newer information are out. This should be common sense.

The Presence being the Source is a fine idea if you take that the Source is just an emanation of God ie the true form of the Presence.

Yeah, it's still the Source. Just manifestation through a shape that's comprehensible. The scan speak for itself and isn't as simple as just a lesser Source.

Unless your keen on a certain guidebook. Most authors and stories do not use the Presence as just some sort of God that maintains multiversal balance as oppose to being the supreme entity manifesting through aspects like the Source, Overvoid, and the Light of Creation who all are the same lesser of the one true God.

That's not for you to decide with current information.

The “self-referential” means one making a reference to oneself. Which is answered in the next sentence “The Great Darkness can only refer to itself through an abesence of another.” That’s what “self-referential” means making yourself being referred and in this case, the Great Darkness through the Light/Source. I don't know what is hard to grasp here.

Which includes the Overvoid.

Morrison isn't the head writer here nor is his information up to date. He was clearly fine with Snyder using the Overvoid as just a corrosive void outside Creation and nothing more.

Are you not aware that the scan was referencing Final Crisis #7? Who was there at the time? It was Rox Omaga who was the current Mandrakk after using Dax Novu essence. As the scan literally said that in the final moments and in the darkest hours it appeared as Mandrakk which was during the final issue before Superman used the miracle machine.

Even then using what the Darkness said. It was just Pariah using a fraction of the Darkness's power to corrupt beings.

A scion is more like a descendant or the next in line. That's not really an avatar.

If it contradicts Perpetua then it wouldn't really matter since it is more current information. Through it never clarifies to say Perpetua didn't create the Multiverse which she as well as the Hands had be referred several times meaning what happened and what was known was true.

I think you know who. However, the “Great Darkness” in the legion of superheroes wasn't not the primordial shadow. It was just a villain produced as an anomaly from ring which they said was another Great Darkness that existed a thousand years prior referring to the original storyline of Legion of Superheroes in 1984 called the “Darkness Saga” through #280-285. This isn't the same Darkness.

No, it doesn't. You need evidence for this. Calling it non-dual doesn't help your case anymore.

Instead of relying on fan-made headcanons based on vague evidences, it's better to consider the writer's statements, even if you don't want to count these as legit canon, it still support to make things sense.

Who know? It might be lesser manifestation of Source which appeared in Death of the new gods series.

Any evidence about that interview being un reliable?

Then, The Source is basically the One Above All or the Presence that the Spectre has always been seeking and previous pages have mentioned that "God has multiple faces."

All new information builds upon previous sagas, expanding the new stories by drawing from earlier ones.

That's acceptable. If it's so, Source true form would be God too and Presence would be light of creation.

Mnaifestation of Source is Source ofc TwT, Manifestation of Presence is still Presence, but it doesn't compared to true form in terms of existence.

Ture but never described Presence as God, but Source was stated to be and The history of the Presence sending Perpetua to create the multiverse aligns with the story of the Source doing the same.

As far as I know, current informations didn't even mentioned a single name of " Overvoid ", if there's,feel free to provide.

True, self-referential means referring to itself. The sentence later described TGD as something that can only refer to itself in the absence of another ( Light ). It then defined TGD as the total absence of light. Which simply mean TGD can only be able to refer or defined itself as total absense of light.

Lack of evidence and doesn't fit with Morrison's GL statement + I already debunked Source and Overvoid being same, this is just misconception.

Morrison is the one who published Overvoid with tons of informations and Morrison views the Overvoid as a foundational container or ground-floor void. I see no reason why Scott Snyder would revisit or reintroduce the concept of the Overvoid, as Morrison had already established it during his era.

Dax Novu was still describable as Mandrakak even after Final Crisis and Mandrakk is the title of being dark monitor, the first dark monitor is Dax Novu.

Then it never did any of those things. What the so-called heroes are claiming to be true are misconceptions.

Then, current information porb incorrect as Perpetua's still canon in dark crisis or even the events that published after dark crisis and JLI#4 lore is what Darkseid's percived, rather than actual lore that've been mentioned previously.

Total Darkness refers to The Great Darkness or a part of it, as it is explicitly mentioned as The Great Darkness. However, it is not truly The Great Darkness because Vandal manipulated the superheroes, making it appear as though it was caused by The Great Darkness. In reality, it wasn’t, and these are merely timelines he created. The Great Darkness never occured.

I've already provide the interview name and If u want, I'd provide. I think it's ur problem, Overvoid never become dual lol and if it's so, feel free to provide.

And btw I'm lazy to cut sentences so, I replied everything at once

 

[Swanyee9t76]

lol I’m curious, what recent notion would that be?

They never wrote it lol, even If they claim Overvoid as Source to clarify Presence > Overvoid/Source, Overvoid/Source still shares the same position with Presence due to the Source being highest hierarchy of Greater Omniverse. Source is context prob referring to manifestation of Source which already established in death of the new gods.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

The guidebook the OP is referencing stated that the Presence is the fountainhead beyond the Source. That notion alongside the myriads of other information on the Presence being superior to the Light which in this wiki has been accepted as the Overvoid/Source.

That Source prob would be manifestation of Source ( which is yin-yang humanoid entity ) because Source is the one who ordered Perpetua to create the multiverse, the context provide Presence as the one who ordered Perpetua. Which identically claims, they both are same entity. I don't know what's hard to understand outta there.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

He still contradicted himself and isn’t credible in anyway so my point still stands. Also saying America’s religious and the Presence is God so he has to be supreme, is not a good point to pivot to. DC has written stories featuring dozens of other religious beliefs as equally valid, indicating no real bias or preference, and I’m pretty sure America could give less of a shit about what happens to a random and obscure comic book character like the Presence.

You're not getting the point. Most of the writers tend to either be religious or somewhat weary on using the Presence as a stand-in for the Judeo-Christian God hence why they don't randomly make the character seem weaker than it needs to be. They're not just randomly going in their way to bash out the character which may stir some sort of controversy especially if they pivot the character largely as the supreme deity not unlike most Western conceptions of God. This is very obvious when you read the story.

It’s not a theory, it’s largely implied within his name and nature. I even gave you references to comics like Swamp Thing where he’s directly called “the immortal light” and said to be the opposite to darkness.

Swamp Thing has never even used the implication that God doesn't use aspect. Especially when you consider they didn't even coined the term “The Presence” until very much later with Lucifer's story. So this is just a theory of yours as prior stories still agree the light is “of” God and created by God. Not a very difficult concept to understand especially if God or the Presence transcends Heaven and created Creation rather than just an extension of its will and can easily destroy it with no more than just a word.

Also I think what you’re referring to as “the Light” isn’t really a specific and sentient entity, but is more so the totality of a force that is represented on various levels of reality. This is kind of shown through Highfather and other Gods also representing radiant figures on the same dual side as the Presence. Hecate is an even better example since she represents the light of creativity and embodies creation itself, acting as an opposite to the Upside Down Man who as you know, is identified as darkness on multiple occasions and matched the Presence with a mere fraction of his power.

You love using the Upside Downman example when Justice League Dark depiction or more so just James Tynion isn't even up to date. Especially when you consider that the darkness that surrounds the Sphere is literally located as less than the totality of the Light represented by all of Creation.

Ram V rectify this and called the Upsdie Downman as just a reflection of Hecate fear which produce him as a result of Hecate disgust rather than a fully fledged opposite of existing with her since she became magic first resident in the Sphere.

I don't why you keep using this horrible example but Upside Dowman is nowhere more powerful than the Great Darkness or else like Darkseid wouldn't caught the power beyond the Multiverse whom is “eternal and infinite” as a canvas of nothingness where the Light twinkle as a small flickering star in its endless canvas which Upside Downman is nowhere near matched in that description. It's no surprise you keep using this example when considering Tynion worked with Snyder and it's very clear Snyder treated the Source as this supreme entity with the Presece as another way of saying the Source. That also takes into the fact that Tynion is the one that writes the major cosmological aspect while Snyder focuses on the story telling aspect.

Having a more comprehensible form does not unequivocally necessitate being some ineffable ultimate reality like you’re making it out to be. Furthermore, the Presence did not create the Sphere of Gods, as we blatantly see in Justice League Dark that Hecate in her original state acted as the magic surrounding the material world before splitting off into distinct realms, forming the Sphere of Gods. However, these realms and Gods which formed came with their own creation myths, which is where entities like the Presence came from. Coupled with his realm called the Silver City, he represents the maker of creation under his own abrahamic creation myth. However, these stories are still subsidiary to the original as acknowledged by the Lords of Order. So yeah it’s hard to believe, because it’s technically not even true. You’re just deliberately ignoring this aspect of how the cosmology is set up, and extrapolating the Presences myth to encompass the entire cosmology, even though it quite literally does not and cannot work that way. Such a notion also completely contradicts the map of the multiverse since in the Presences creation myth, the silver city would be the highest realm, while the map only has it placed as one of multiple realms within the Sphere of Gods.

No, its not. We literally see that she, herself, is the first resident of the Sphere of Gods. The Presence was a term coined in the same manner as the Source that birthed the connective energy that created the Multiverse which includes Hecate. The Presence long existed before the Silver City and wasn't randomly created as a myth within the Sphere to which his energy literally supplemented and created the Sphere. Hecate literally just exists as the first resident when magic and all it's raw potential are produced her, its quite clear the Presende far predates and supersedes her.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don’t consider any of what you’re saying obvious. The Overvoid is not light, as it’s explicitly described as beyond such dualities and definitions, and the recent New Gods comic actually pretty much refutes this entire notion by establishing that the Source is a product of the Void referring to itself.

Yeah, and that's the darkness as clearly stated in the next sentence of whom “the Void” is.

 

[Weaver261]

DC is full with inconsistencies. Only taking parts of what benefit to your theory is not cool. Accept the latest as the most canon and move on with your life. Current latest canon is the presence being above all aspects

 

[Swanyee9t76]

In the same guidebook he called the Presence the Omniverse supreme ruler. The only time he said otherwise was when he was not “possibly” the ultimate ruler and despite that many more of what he wrote depicts that he is indeed the ultimate figurehead. So really when it comes down to it and DC Greatest Event being the more recent guidebook it is made clear he views the Presence as supreme. Regardless, he isn't an author and guidebooks are meant to be taken with a grain of salt. However, almost every writer always puts the Presence at the top, it's very evident that is their undisclosed rule as an interview with a guy who works for DC makes it clear. Quite clear since America in general is very Christian-centric and most of the writers won't bash a character like the Presence hence why all the scans talking about “God” in some sort lesser isn't in most cases, if ever at all referring to the Presence.

And? Like I said before, Omniverse itself is The Source. Because, The hands used energies from the Source to crafted infinite multiverses and that collection of multiverses are known as Omniverse, Source also sit at the center of greater omniverse ( which used to be a universe without form ) and Source existted everyone in the hierarchy of cosmic ladder. The possible one in the book prob lesser aspect of Presence. When did he mentioned Presence as Supreme being among all DC? And don't u think it's contradicted to your previous words of claiming Morrison or Scott Snyder's opinions couldn't be counted? Ur headcanon seems nice but Presence had been mentioned as Omniversal Supreme being.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

DC is full with inconsistencies. Only taking parts of what benefit to your theory is not cool. Accept the latest as the most canon and move on with your life. Current latest canon is the presence being above all aspects

May I Ask why? Could u give me the evidence of Presence was directly meant to be Supreme being that's above all. Rather than providing creator' stuffs.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Yeah, and that's the darkness as clearly stated in the next sentence of whom “the Void” is.

it only said absence of another and that another is light. It later described TGD as total absence of Source rather than Void.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Instead of relying on fan-made headcanons based on vague evidences, it's better to consider the writer's statements, even if you don't want to count these as legit canon, it still support to make things sense.

It doesn't support your notion much less matters than the actual printed material. You do understand how “Death of the Auhtor” works, right?

Who know? It might be lesser manifestation of Source which appeared in Death of the new gods series.

You're not very clear on your point nor are you even sure. That was not a lesser manifestation, it was a visual representation manifesting a convincible shape, which the story never implies or directly states as “lesser.” Its Jim Starlin tacky writing about wanting Darkseid to overtake the supreme deity as the whole purpose of taking the Soulfire formula was to replace the Source itself.

Any evidence about that interview being un reliable?

Its not an official interview and there's is no reference of it being a thing other than Michael Julius randomly writing it. That aside even if it were a “legitimate” interview it was very lead on and Steve Orlando hadn't dealt with the original work of Final Crisis. Steve is very vocal and even told me what he says doesn't matter invoking the idea authors and writers do not determine canon but what is written.

Then, The Source is basically the One Above All or the Presence that the Spectre has always been seeking and previous pages have mentioned that "God has multiple faces."

God has multiple faces also means different facets or aspects. They aren't the full entity itself especially considering that “God” is a single title and is just seen through many shapes from different depictions through different belief systems. That's rather an easy concept to understand since God would permeate any and all its aspects/faces.

All new information builds upon previous sagas, expanding the new stories by drawing from earlier ones.

Right and new information clearly states the Overvoid is the Light as would the Source being the very Light as well.

That's acceptable. If it's so, Source true form would be God too and Presence would be light of creation.

The Presence is God? The Presence literally created the Light as did God. I don't know how this isn't made obvious. You can't play the card ignorance is bliss. Your just downright ignoring the obvious.

Mnaifestation of Source is Source ofc TwT, Manifestation of Presence is still Presence, but it doesn't compared to true form in terms of existence.

If they don't scale to their true form then obviously they aren't as powerful. I make no distinction that the manifestation is the entity itself. Regardless, the Presence is clear on being a manifestation of a truer being. The Source is just the Source with rare mentions of it having a true form, if not at all. The Source is a manifestation of the Creator’s powers and creativity also helps that notion.

Ture but never described Presence as God, but Source was stated to be and The history of the Presence sending Perpetua to create the multiverse aligns with the story of the Source doing the same.

The Presence not being “God” is the dumbest mental gymnastic I've ever heard. Now we're going to deny the Presence who is God and has been called God or the Creator way more often than the Source as being “God.” I'm going to assume you're joking here.

As far as I know, current informations didn't even mentioned a single name of " Overvoid ", if there's,feel free to provide.

Same with the Presence rarely being mentioned by name other than being called God, Creator, or something analogous to those titles. Though, Overvoid stand-ins are immaculate perfection, light, or void(in certain scans).

True, self-referential means referring to itself. The sentence later described TGD as something that can only refer to itself in the absence of another ( Light ). It then defined TGD as the total absence of light. Which simply mean TGD can only be able to refer or defined itself as total absense of light.

You're not getting the scan are you? The Darkness originally was everything and nothing since all that was(everything) was nothing. It had no name, no consciousness, or no state of being it was only the Great Darkness in contrast to the Light which it still predates and is described as just a small twinkling light in its endless canvas.

Lack of evidence and doesn't fit with Morrison's GL statement + I already debunked Source and Overvoid being same, this is just misconception.

Morrison's GL run mentions the Overvoid once(which they don't even call it by name). The information of the Metal series and Dark Crisis is far more recent.

Morrison is the one who published Overvoid with tons of informations and Morrison views the Overvoid as a foundational container or ground-floor void. I see no reason why Scott Snyder would revisit or reintroduce the concept of the Overvoid, as Morrison had already established it during his era.

Yeah, because the despection of the Overvoid during Snyder's run is just a corrosive void outside the Multiverse and not some ontological plane of nothingness preceding creations.

Dax Novu was still describable as Mandrakak even after Final Crisis and Mandrakk is the title of being dark monitor, the first dark monitor is Dax Novu.

Yeah, and the scan itself isn't showing Dax Novu whose idea was erased during Superman Beyond. Which the Justice League Incarnate scan shows Final Crisis #7 which was Rox and not Dax. Rox was only “Mandrakk” because he was corrupted by Dax being the only one referred to as Mandrakk itself.

Then it never did any of those things. What the so-called heroes are claiming to be true are misconceptions.

I don't know what you mean here other than people conception of the darkness intention being wrong. Regardless, if appeared during Swamp Thing directly and that's rather clear.

Then, current information porb incorrect as Perpetua's still canon in dark crisis or even the events that published after dark crisis and JLI#4 lore is what Darkseid's percived, rather than actual lore that've been mentioned previously.

Ok, stop with this nonsense you got from Michael Julius and claiming you don't know him. You used a comic vine thread he randomly posted, used his logic on Vandal Savage, and now using his logic that Perpetua was what Darkseid perceived. Ok, you “totally” don't know him. What’s next Perpetua is just Universal and readies in a bubble timeline that Darkseid created?

Total Darkness refers to The Great Darkness or a part of it, as it is explicitly mentioned as The Great Darkness. However, it is not truly The Great Darkness because Vandal manipulated the superheroes, making it appear as though it was caused by The Great Darkness. In reality, it wasn’t, and these are merely timelines he created. The Great Darkness never occured.

Yeah, and that Great Darkness isn't the same one we see in Deadly Green. Which Deadly Green was released a month after #6 of Justice League vs Legion of Superheroes. Not to mention all the story following saying the Darkness was indeed aware and seen the events as it chose just to watch meaning it very much is real. The Darkness that lives on or any form is up for anyone to decide as real or not.

That's what Michael Julius never clarifies and gets mad at fans for “wrongly” interpretation what he says. He doesn't say the Darkness exists or that it was just Pariah’s madness. He says at the very core that the Darkness doesn't entirely exists at all.

I've already provide the interview name and If u want, I'd provide. I think it's ur problem, Overvoid never become dual lol and if it's so, feel free to provide.

Can you post valids scans from the story disapproving Light and Dark not being dichotomies?

And btw I'm lazy to cut sentences so, I replied everything at once

Kinda dumb if you ask me.

They never wrote it lol, even If they claim Overvoid as Source to clarify Presence > Overvoid/Source, Overvoid/Source still shares the same position with Presence due to the Source being highest hierarchy of Greater Omniverse. Source is context prob referring to manifestation of Source which already established in death of the new gods.

The Greater Omniverse and the Overvoid were interchangeable in Death Metal. So it stands to reason the Source whom Synder describes to Tyler from the Imaginary Axis as the pinnacle of all things would be more or less the Creator of the Greater Omniverse as well. Considering the “Void” has an end as stated several times within the stories. Death of the New Gods other than Grant Morrison is literally just ignored. Given your weird interpretation of things, I'm not surprised you see it like that with no evidence to suggest anything of the sort. I'm pretty sure you're not even confident in saying that.

That Source prob would be manifestation of Source ( which is yin-yang humanoid entity ) because Source is the one who ordered Perpetua to create the multiverse, the context provide Presence as the one who ordered Perpetua. Which identically claims, they both are same entity. I don't know what's hard to understand outta there.

Does Flash not make it clear that the Source and Light are one? Does multiple stories say the Presence created Light which made the Darkness which is treated as non-existent? What information do you like using yet you filter so much of it to fit your narrative.

 

[Asterotheology]

In the same guidebook he called the Presence the Omniverse supreme ruler. The only time he said otherwise was when he was not “possibly” the ultimate ruler and despite that many more of what he wrote depicts that he is indeed the ultimate figurehead. So really when it comes down to it and DC Greatest Event being the more recent guidebook it is made clear he views the Presence as supreme. Regardless, he isn't an author and guidebooks are meant to be taken with a grain of salt. However, almost every writer always puts the Presence at the top, it's very evident that is their undisclosed rule as an interview with a guy who works for DC makes it clear. Quite clear since America in general is very Christian-centric and most of the writers won't bash a character like the Presence hence why all the scans talking about “God” in some sort lesser isn't in most cases, if ever at all referring to the Presence.

Slight correction, DC Greatest Events isn't the most recent guidebook. Not that it helps the other side, of course. The recent guidebook states that the Source is an energy linked to the Presence, who's the creator and source of all things. Pretty much, as the new ones come it, it continues to drive home the thought that the Source is below the Presence.

Also, did no one here read issue 2 of the recent New Gods comic? It's been out for a couple of days now and stated that the Source manifests as imagination and Creation while the Darkness is in opposition to creation as uncreation, the absence of idea. Which the Source shattered through.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Before I answer your question. Can you just not break my points across? Just use it all in the same answer rather than having me answer these things individually.

And? Like I said before, Omniverse itself is The Source. Because, The hands used energies from the Source to crafted infinite multiverses and that collection of multiverses are known as Omniverse, Source also sit at the center of greater omniverse ( which used to be a universe without form ) and Source existted everyone in the hierarchy of cosmic ladder. The possible one in the book prob lesser aspect of Presence. When did he mentioned Presence as Supreme being among all DC? And don't u think it's contradicted to your previous words of claiming Morrison or Scott Snyder's opinions couldn't be counted? Ur headcanon seems nice but Presence had been mentioned as Omniversal Supreme being.

I stand to reason that statements from authors don't matter nor do they need to be used. I don't claim what they say shouldn't be discounted completely especially if it were supported by the stories themselves. Which using the story to support your claims should always be a priority and not the authors regardless of what they say even if supported by the story.

it only said absence of another and that another is light. It later described TGD as total absence of Source rather than Void.

I've already answered this in the larger response I had. However, I’ll requote it for you:

The Darkness originally was everything and nothing since all that was(everything) was nothing. It had no name, no consciousness, or no state of being it was only the Great Darkness in contrast to the Light which it still predates and is described as just a small twinkling light in its endless canvas.

If you need an explanation “nothingness” is the opposite of everything which include Light and Dark. Without the Light, the Darkness is formless and without meaning, and due to that it stands to reason that what Metron describing is the Darkness prior to being named and conceptualized with the Light. That shouldn’t be hard to understand at all.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Slight correction, DC Greatest Events isn't the most recent guidebook. Not that it helps the other side, of course. The recent guidebook states that the Source is an energy linked to the Presence, who's the creator and source of all things. Pretty much, as the new ones come it, it continues to drive home the thought that the Source is below the Presence.

Also, did no one here read issue 2 of the recent New Gods comic? It's been out for a couple of days now and stated that the Source manifests as imagination and Creation while the Darkness is in opposition to creation as uncreation, the absence of idea. Which the Source shattered through.

Thank you for pointing the obvious to which it should of been made clear to two people here. One guys loves Justice League Dark lore while the other relies on WoG of Morrison.

 

[Weaver261]

May I Ask why? Could u give me the evidence of Presence was directly meant to be Supreme being that's above all. Rather than providing creator' stuffs.

The source is the light according to new flash comic and new gods comic. The light also the overvoid in JLI #4 (don't say overvoid isn't mentioned. They used the same font, same phrases, they changed overvoid origin..so grant Morrison overvoid origin is no longer canon)
The source = the light = the overvoid. Alright? The light came into existence when the god or creator said it. (Don't nitpick me by saying it's not referring to the presence) Death metal stated the source and the presence as interchangeable. Yeah they are interchangeable but doesn't mean they are equal in term of existence. The source is described as creator's power rather than being creator itself. The source in green lantern comic showed different aspects of him being jack Kirby, flaming hand. That flaming hand was saw late back in spectre comic where spectre seek the presence and the source pointed towards earth. If this isn't obvious, I don't know what is

 

[Elizio33]

Honestly, this thread is going nowhere. In past canon, Morrison defined The Overvoid as the non-dual God in his interviews and his Green Lantern run, yes, but that is no longer the case as The Overvoid is now interchangeable with The Light.

Even in the past canon, the non-dual nature of The Overvoid was questionable because of its relationship with The Flaw that was everywhere The Overvoid was not. The Source (who is interchangeable with The Light and The Overvoid) is a manifestation of the power of The Presence, or The Creator or God if you prefer. Isn't it obvious?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Honestly, this thread is going nowhere. In past canon, Morrison defined The Overvoid as the non-dual God in his interviews and his Green Lantern run, yes, but that is no longer the case as The Overvoid is now interchangeable with The Light.

Even in the past canon, the non-dual nature of The Overvoid was questionable because of its relationship with The Flaw that was everywhere The Overvoid was not. The Source (who is interchangeable with The Light and The Overvoid) is a manifestation of the power of The Presence, or The Creator or God if you prefer. Isn't it obvious?

It's obvious to most but apparently not to the few here.

Plus, New Gods #2 clearly shows more of the idea that the self-referential Void is the Darkness seeing as the Source came from it. Although #1 already made it clear in that department.

 

[Elizio33]

It's obvious to most but apparently not to the few here.

Plus, New Gods #2 clearly shows more of the idea that the self-referential Void is the Darkness seeing as the Source came from it. Although #1 already made it clear in that department.

Yeah. The self-referential void is the Great Darkness.

 

[Elizio33]

I think we should update the Crisis Cosmology section with this new information.

* The Great Darkness is a self-referential void that can only be referenced through an opposite and that opposite is The Source. Total darkness can only be defined as an absence of light and life and The Source is thus the untainted and incomprehensible purity in all existences.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think we should update the Crisis Cosmology section with this new information.

* The Great Darkness is a self-referential void that can only be referenced through an opposite and that opposite is The Source. Total darkness can only be defined as an absence of light and life and The Source is thus the untainted and incomprehensible purity in all existences.

Seems good. Add ghe description about it completely opposing existence as a whole and not just represent uncreation or the absence of information as it was stated.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

The source is the light according to new flash comic and new gods comic. The light also the overvoid in JLI #4 (don't say overvoid isn't mentioned. They used the same font, same phrases, they changed overvoid origin..so grant Morrison overvoid origin is no longer canon)
The source = the light = the overvoid. Alright? The light came into existence when the god or creator said it. (Don't nitpick me by saying it's not referring to the presence) Death metal stated the source and the presence as interchangeable. Yeah they are interchangeable but doesn't mean they are equal in term of existence. The source is described as creator's power rather than being creator itself. The source in green lantern comic showed different aspects of him being jack Kirby, flaming hand. That flaming hand was saw late back in spectre comic where spectre seek the presence and the source pointed towards earth. If this isn't obvious, I don't know what is

JLI issue 4 literally became false information issues by the time at the end of Dark Crisis On Infinite Earth (deadly green too) because The Great Darkness stated that he didn’t do anything any of crisis. Also in current New Gods 2024 run, issue 1, stated that Source and Light is the same thing and product of overvoid. The Source and The Presence is directly stated to be the same thing too. So overvoid being light is completely false. Which means Overvoid created the source, the light, the Presence.

 

[Weaver261]

because The Great Darkness stated that he didn’t do anything any of crisis.

Hate to break it to you but TGD said dark crisis, not every crisis. Thus your point of JLI being false information is completely invalid

Source and Light is the same thing and product of overvoid

Are you having reading comprehension?? The source is a product of self referential void. This line is followed up this line. The great darkness could only refer to itself through an absence of another. This void is clearly The great darkness.

The Source and The Presence is directly stated to be the same thing

Not anymore, that was like three or four years ago. Outdated. As long as source is the light, it will be not equal to the presence who brought the light