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TheRustyOne

VS Battles
Calculation Group
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11,159
Before I do anything else let's talk about Rewind AFO's regeneration, which should be Mid-High.

Mid-High: The ability to regenerate from having all biology completely incinerated. This includes being reduced to ash, dust, smoke, vapor, or plasma.

Endeavor incinerated AFO's entire body and he was still capable of healing. Endeavor stated that the Regeneration Quirk can't heal from this level of damage. AFO's body was shown crumbling away from the breeze and only stopped because of Rewind. So I think it's fair to say his Regeneration should be upped to Mid-High, this is rather simple.

Regeneration (Mid-High. Was able to regenerate even after having his entire body incinerated)

Agree: TheRustyOne, SuperStar, Damage3245, Therefir, Metalballrun, Danny33wise, Shadow_x007x, 57Dev, Kingofwolves999, (9)

Disagree: (0)

Neutral: (0)

Alright, now to get into All For One's and Bakugo's scaling in this last arc.

I have these methods for Rewind AFO's scaling.

Method 1

Tier: High 6-C, higher with Rewind Drug, far higher with Omni-Factor Unleash

In this case Rewind AFO's AP scales above Gigantomachia for inflicting noticeable injuries on him with a casual Air Cannon.

In terms of durability he scales as well. He took a direct hit from Machia without any noticeable injuries.

Rewind AFO would be 836.11 GT in both AP and Dura via this scaling. He'd of course get even stronger the younger he becomes.

This is the most simple rating and we kind of already scale him like this.

The Omni-Factor Unleash and his durability is new though, along with adding the name of previously unnamed Quirks.

Method 2

Tier: High 6-C, 6-B with Rewind Drug, far higher with Omni-Factor Unleash

Rewind AFO should just be as strong as his Prime self that blew a hole through All Might. It's been shown that AFO still has some of his earliest Quirks, including the very first Quirk he ever stole. And we've never been told that AFO lost all of his Prime Quirks, just that he uses different Quirks compared to last time.

He couldn't unleash 6-B level power because of his damaged body. As such, the argument that he doesn't have his Prime Quirks cannot be used unless someone has evidence that supports this fact. While this doesn't instantly say he should be 6-B, it helps show that him using difference Quirks while weakened isn't an anti-feat.

Of course, there is more evidence of him scaling to Prime All Might level.

AFO heavily implies that he's on par with his Prime self during this speech. He says that standing up to him isn't bravery but simply ignorance as they are unaware of what he was capable of during his Golden Age. He's very clearly saying he's just as strong as his Prime self.

If he wasn't then this statement doesn't make sense. He's telling them they're outclassed now that he's back and they just don't know it yet. He even say how they lack the only man who can stop him, which is Prime All Might. Once again, he's saying he's back to his Prime level of strength where only All Might could beat him.

Rewind AFO was planning on fighting Complete Shigaraki into transferring his Quirk into him. AFO is perfectly aware that even Quirkless Shigaraki is on par with Prime All Might, which is just further proof that he should be scaling. I'm not saying he can defeat Shiggy, just that he should be comparable for him to believe this.

If he was over 50x weaker he'd stand zero chance of forcing him to do anything since Shiggy would blow him away with a single Quirkless punch.

This scales to Dark Shadow's Full Power as he overpowered Prime AFO and he needed to become younger/stronger in order to blow him off.

AFO's Durability does not scale to the 6-B value as he lacks any feats in this regard, which means he'll still just scale to Gigantomachia's 836.11 GT rating.

Method 1: Damage3245, Therefir, Metalballrun, SlendVeny, Shadow_x007x, Kingofwolves999 (6)

Method 2: TheRustyOne, 57Dev, (2)

Neutral: SuperStar, (1)

Disagree: (0)

Sandbox, of how his profile will look with either methods.

Dark Shadow as well if Method 2 is chosen, nothing changes for him if Method 1 is accepted so there is no reason to label it.

I have two suggestions for Bakugo's scaling.

Method 1

Tier: High 6-C with Explosion, higher with Cluster, far higher with Howitzer Impact: Cluster

His Cluster scales to Rewind AFO's Durability, since he can injure him with his attacks and reduced him to a baby.

This would be 836.11 GT for his Cluster and Howitzer.

Similar to AFO's first method there is nothing too fancy here.

Method 2

Tier: High 6-C with Explosion, 6-B with Cluster, far higher with Howitzer Impact: Cluster

His Howitzer Impact: Cluster should be 6-B as All For Shiggy admits the attack was amazing and that's why he has to get rid of it. This is very clear scaling that I'm surprise I missed this earlier, Shiggy is threaten by this attack and doesn't want Bakugo to use it again. I don't see why he'd feel like that if it's over 50X weaker than his durability.

All For Shiggy also admits that Bakugo's Cluster made him panic and he even felt threaten by him since his attack did hurt him. Not only that, but Bakugo even admits that with his new Cluster upgrade he feels like he can even surpass Deku right now. None of these points hold up if he's over 50x weaker than either of them.

Not saying he is stronger than Izuku, just that he has to be somewhat comparable in this moment for him to even feel this way. I know "confidence" scaling isn't all that good, but I see no reason why I shouldn't mention this. I do have other points and I believe all of this together helps support the rating here.

Another point, All For Shiggy basically says that Bakugo's Cluster upgrade hurt him more than his Howitzer Impact: Cluster. He says that he hasn't felt real damage but quickly corrects himself, as he realizes that Bakugo's Cluster did hurt him. We even see Shiggy is talking about his Cluister and not his Howitzer, his Cluster was the only one he considered to be real damage.

This means Bakugo got such a big boost in this moment that his normal Cluster attacks surpassed his previous strongest attack.

AFO's statement that Bakugo is below Endeavor is not reliable since Bakugo is still learning what he can do. Bakugo very clearly surprises AFO right after that and is capable of harming him. It's made very clear that he's still improving as he figures out how this Awakening has changed his Quirk. The chapter's title even mentions how he needs to get a grip on his Quirk.

And even ignoring the 6-B stuff, Shiggy statement about Bakugo's Cluster places him above Mirko and his Howitzer, which both scale above Endeavor.

So yeah, this is not an anti-feat or anything against Bakugo being 6-B. This next part is assuming AFO is accepted as being 6-B.

Bakugo very clearly clashes and stops multiple attacks from Rewind AFO. As you can see here he isn't just wailing on him, AFO is actively attacking and Bakugo is stopping his attacks with his explosions. Meaning his Cluster explosions should scale to Rewind AFO's AP in this moment.

Note: AFO's loss of control over his Quirks doesn't happen until after this initial barrage. If he didn't have control over his Quirks in this moment he couldn't be attacking with multiple different ones. It's only after that clash where he starts getting overwhelmed because he stopped being able to use his Quirks.

I don't believe Bakugo is equal with the Prime All Might level cast outside of speed (He's faster), but it's clear he can hang in there for a period of time and not be overwhelmed instantly. And similar to Rewind AFO he has no reason for his durability to scale to this level at all.

Method 1: SlendVeny, Shadow_x007x, Kingofwolves999, (3)

Method 2: (0)

Neutral: TheRustyOne, SuperStar, Therefir (With Method 1), Metalballrun (With Method 1), (4)

Disagree: DemonGodMitchAubin, Damage3245, Nierre, Therefir (With Method 2), Danny33wise, (5)

Sandbox of how his profile will look can be seen there. Edit: This part has been rejected, you can ignore this if you want.

This stuff underneath is independent from anything above.

Bakugo should get a speed upgrade with Cluster for blitzing Complete Shigaraki who is Prime All Might level in terms of speed. Along with the side-effect of his new Full Body Cluster. Also, maybe limited Durability Negation for being able to put his explosive sweat into someone's mouth and blow up their head from the inside.

Agree: TheRustyOne, Nierre, Shadow_x007x, 57Dev, Kingofwolves999, Damage3245 (With Speed), Metalballrun (With Speed), (7)

Disagree: Damage3245 (With Dura Negation), Metalballrun (With Dura Negation), LordGinSama (With Dura Negation), (3)

Neutral: (0)
 
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We always gotta consider that AFO could have simply hurt All Might with hax like the Spatial Warp ability.

Even Impact Recoil could easily be used to hurt All Might by reflecting All Might's power back + adding on AFO's own power on top.

So technically AFO doesn't need All Might level AP to harm All Might. Though this is just an aside point and I do think that while AFO was weaker, they were still in the same tier.
 
Am going to be replying to this soon when I am less busy 😌. Just FYI I simply do not agree with bakugo getting 6b.
 
Personally I'm in favor of Method 1 for All For One.

Rewind AFO was planning on fighting Complete Shigaraki into transferring his Quirk into him. AFO is perfectly aware that even Quirkless Shigaraki is on par with Prime All Might, which is just further proof that he should be scaling. I'm not saying he can defeat Shiggy, just that he should be comparable for him to believe this.

I don't think All For One is necessarily saying that he even needs to hurt Shigaraki here; what he needs to do is touch him to transfer his Quirk and given that he is regenerating at this time he doesn't necessarily need to tank hits from Shigaraki either.



The Mid-High regeneration for AFO is fine.
 
Completely disagree with Bakugo>Endeavor and Dark Shadow BTW. That statement literally exists to showcase Bakugo isn't as strong AP wise...

Also we later learn the reason AFO Shigaraki was so bothered by Bakugo is because of his resemblance to Kudo. I also don't agree Post-Awakening Cluster is greater than the Howziter Impact Cluster that literally scarred half of his face. We literally see a direct comparison of power between these two attacks and it's clear that the Howziter Impact Cluster did more damage
 
Completely disagree with Bakugo>Endeavor and Dark Shadow BTW. That statement literally exists to showcase Bakugo isn't as strong AP wise...

Also we later learn the reason AFO Shigaraki was so bothered by Bakugo is because of his resemblance to Kudo. I also don't agree Post-Awakening Cluster is greater than the Howziter Impact Cluster that literally scarred half of his face. We literally see a direct comparison of power between these two attacks and it's clear that the Howziter Impact Cluster did more damage

I agree with Mitch on these points.
 
I don't think All For One is necessarily saying that he even needs to hurt Shigaraki here; what he needs to do is touch him to transfer his Quirk and given that he is regenerating at this time he doesn't necessarily need to tank hits from Shigaraki either.
I mean AFO literally confirmed this when he was just a baby and was about to be rewound into non-existence, according to him all he needed to do was transfer his Quirk to Shigaraki and he would "win".

And like DemonGod said, I don't think AFO's statement was him being delusional or that Dynamight was somehow using weaker explosions than he did when he first awakened the full body Cluster.

Plus keep in mind all Dynamight could do to Shigaraki was "sting him a little", which isn't grounds for scaling.

It's also strange to think that a young AFO could take on Prime Shigaraki in a 1vs1, considering that someone as strong as Shiggy, with an attack plan as simple as charging forward, and without extra Quirks, was somehow able to beat him.

I prefer the option 1 for AFO and Dynamight.
 
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Knew I forgot something, I added a disagreement count as well.

DemonGodMitchAubin and Damage3245

What about Bakugo's speed scaling above Shigaraki and his limited dura negation?

I prefer the option 1 for both characters.
Mitch disagrees with both options, since Method 1 makes him stronger than Endeavor.

Do you disagree with that part and think it's alright for him to be above Endeavor?

Also, what about AFO's regeneration?

Note: I complete agree that Shigaraki's panic was just him being confused about the Kudo thing, and not because he was actually a threat to him.

Still staying neutral because I want to avoid getting into any discussion here.
 
Mitch disagrees with both options, since Method 1 makes him stronger than Endeavor.

Do you disagree with that part and think it's alright for him to be above Endeavor?

Also, what about AFO's regeneration?

Note: I complete agree that Shigaraki's panic was just him being confused about the Kudo thing, and not because he was actually a threat to him.

Still staying neutral because I want to avoid getting into any discussion here.
I agree with AFO's regeneration being Mid-High, you can put me on neutral on Method 1, and disagree with Method 2.
 
Agree with Mid-High regen for AFO.
For now, agree with Method 1 for AFO. Neutral for Bakugo on Method 1. Think I have to reread the Bakugo parts later. Agree with Bakugo's speed amp, obv.

Aside from what others have said...
If he was over 50x weaker he'd stand zero chance of forcing him to do anything since Shiggy would blow him away with a single Quirkless punch.
All characters (besides Deku) that (Quirkless) Shigaraki fought were over 50x weaker than him. AFO didn't need to be 6-B himself to transfer his Quirk to Shiggy, especially with a varied arsenal of Quirks himself and Rewinding body state (he probably wasn't planning to get hit too much, if at all, by that point).

If only if Horikoshi confirmed what Quirk injured All Might, Method 2 wouldn't even be a debate.
 
What I wanted to say has already been said so I guess theirs no point prolonging a debate here.

I agree with afo regen but disagree with bakugo scaling above endeavour. I think the afo statement is just to show bakugo is not an ap beast. Most of the time bakugo talks about keeping up with deku or even surpassing him, those statement mostly implies he wants to be able to keep up with deku in speed and it doesn't help that the recent chapters about him where mostly about speed. I think horikoshi knows what he is doing their as he never once implies bakugo could keep up in ap or even give out compliments about his ap.

As for dura neg, I thought he had that already. I agree with his dura neg.
 
Mid-High: The ability to regenerate from having all biology completely incinerated. This includes being reduced to ash, dust, smoke, vapor, or plasma.

Endeavor incinerated AFO's entire body and he was still capable of healing. Endeavor stated that the Regeneration Quirk can't heal from this level of damage. AFO's body was shown crumbling away from the breeze and only stopped because of Rewind. So I think it's fair to say his Regeneration should be upped to Mid-High, this is rather simple.

Regeneration (Mid-High. Was able to regenerate even after having his entire body incinerated)
I agree
I have these methods for Rewind AFO's scaling.
I agree with method 1, and I'm neutral with method 2. I think we're not clear enough to say that Prime AFO is on par with Prime All Might even on the Ap side, since we already know that AFO is. His Quirks are diverse enough that he doesn't need to have enough Ap, but he can still attack Prime All Might in ways like reflecting back the damage he takes, etc.
I have two suggestions for Bakugo's scaling
I don't think I have a problem with Bakugo's Method 1, and I agree that we don't believe all of AFO's statements about Bakugo. However, I think our acceptance of 6-B for Bakugo is... It was too high. AFO became weaker after he became a child, and Bakugo made it clear that he couldn't defeat AFO alone. And most of the factors that made AFO lose came from Bakugo's similar appearance to Kudo.
However, I have no problem with "likely 6-B" as we have his achievements being able to damage Shigaraki and Shigaraki identifies him as a threat.
Bakugo should get a speed upgrade with Cluster for blitzing Complete Shigaraki who is Prime All Might level in terms of speed. Along with the side-effect of his new Full Body Cluster. Also, limited Durability Negation for being able to put his explosive sweat into someone's mouth and blow up their head from the inside
I completely agree.
 
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I agree with AFO's Regen and Method 2 of scaling him. Method 1 and Dura bypass for Bakugo.

AFO is built like a mage. His AP has consistently been higher than his durability. So I can agree with method 2.
 
Agree with Mid-High regen, Method 1 for AFO and Bakugo, Cluster speed amp and limited durability negation.



As AFO states, he was weakened from damage, becoming unable to mix quirks as effectively and he lost basically all of his authority during Bakugo’s explosion beatdown, so Bakugo blasting apart his attacks at that point isn’t super impressive. He still scales directly to AFO’s durability however, so his Cluster should be in the same ball park as Endeavor and Dark Shadow.

There are other abilities Bakugo and AFO should have but they can be discussed in a separate thread after this I suppose.
 
If we aren't scaling Bakugo to AFO at all for being weakened, both Method 1 and 2 cannot be passed.

And we already have two staff agreements rejecting Bakugo scaling to AFO, so his profile will not be changed at all regarding his AP.

Only his speed and limited dura negation, if that is accepted will be added.

I don't see what other abilities Bakugo and AFO should should have, what do you mean?
 
Is it possible that Endeavor got stronger in the Final Arc? That way, you could remove "Capable of clashing against multiple attacks from Rewind All For One" and still have Bakugo scaling above Mirko and the Plasma Cannon, without conflicting with the statement that Bakugo is weaker than Endeavor.

Also, it might be worth mentioning in his profile that unlike Nejire's attacks, which couldn't even scratch Shiggy's skin, Bakugo was able to at least sting him.
 
Poor Nejire.
Anyways, I'm under the opinion that Endeavor seemed to have become a better fighter in the Final War, but not necessarily stronger in a sense that his stats increased. Because while there wasn't any statements implying such physical or power growth, we've seen him use more ingenuous methods of fighting and essentially having his own version of "injured All Might killing AFO moment."

Would be interesting if there is evidence suggesting he got stronger though, but so far I only remember AFO saying he's unfocused due to the Toya stuff.
 
Is it possible that Endeavor got stronger in the Final Arc? That way, you could remove "Capable of clashing against multiple attacks from Rewind All For One" and still have Bakugo scaling above Mirko and the Plasma Cannon, without conflicting with the statement that Bakugo is weaker than Endeavor.

Also, it might be worth mentioning in his profile that unlike Nejire's attacks, which couldn't even scratch Shiggy's skin, Bakugo was able to at least sting him.
Endeavor reaching his peak is the height of his character arc and why he "creates" Shoto and the other kids. It was even stated Endeavor mastering Flashfire Fist is when he realized his limits. Endeavor getting stronger would fix lots of issues I know other people have with his own scaling, but it's clearly not supported in universe.

They would mention that he'd gotten stronger if this was the case, especially since that'd rate him above Weakened All Might.

Bakugo stinging him Shigaraki and damaging AFO will mostly be treated as heat damage in all honesty, excluding the inside head explosion for obvious reasons. However, if we do agree that AFO's power was weakening in that moment that means his durability dropped down as well, since those are Quirks as well.

I don't think there's a reasonable way to scale him to Rewind AFO or above Mirko and the Plasma Cannon in this scenario.

Scaling him above Mirko and Plasma Cannon contradicts AFO's statement if we're taking it as truth that this Bakugo cannot be above/equal to Endeavor. Since Mirko is stronger than Endeavor in terms of raw impact and the Plasma Cannon is even stronger than her.
 
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Is it possible that Endeavor got stronger in the Final Arc? That way, you could remove "Capable of clashing against multiple attacks from Rewind All For One" and still have Bakugo scaling above Mirko and the Plasma Cannon, without conflicting with the statement that Bakugo is weaker than Endeavor.

Also, it might be worth mentioning in his profile that unlike Nejire's attacks, which couldn't even scratch Shiggy's skin, Bakugo was able to at least sting him.
Honestly he probably did, we literally see that he does train still
 
Endeavor reaching his peak is the height of his character arc and why he "creates" Shoto and the other kids. It was even stated Endeavor mastering Flashfire Fist is when he realized his limits. Endeavor getting stronger would fix lots of issues I know other people have with his own scaling, but it's clearly not supported in universe.

They would mention that he'd gotten stronger if this was the case, especially since that'd rate him above Weakened All Might.

Bakugo stinging him Shigaraki and damaging AFO will mostly be treated as heat damage in all honesty, excluding the inside head explosion for obvious reasons. However, if we do agree that AFO's power was weakening in that moment that means his durability dropped down as well, since those are Quirks as well.

I don't think there's a reasonable way to scale him to Rewind AFO or above Mirko and the Plasma Cannon in this scenario.

Scaling him above Mirko and Plasma Cannon contradicts AFO's statement if we're taking it as truth that this Bakugo cannot be above/equal to Endeavor. Since Mirko is stronger than Endeavor in terms of raw impact and the Plasma Cannon is even stronger than her.
Except Endeavor does get stronger. He's able to withstand using flashfire for much longer and we also see him use flashfire in new ways throughout the story. People forget but Endeavor flying isn't something he was always able to do, he learns in his fight vs Hood. Same with his eye lasers. Kamino Endeavor wasn't even competent enough for AFO to properly notice him and Final Act Endeavor was bodying him and dragging him through forests
 
Except Endeavor does get stronger. He's able to withstand using flashfire for much longer and we also see him use flashfire in new ways throughout the story. People forget but Endeavor flying isn't something he was always able to do, he learns in his fight vs Hood. Same with his eye lasers. Kamino Endeavor wasn't even competent enough for AFO to properly notice him and Final Act Endeavor was bodying him and dragging him through forests
Because AFO's Quirk were rebelling and slowing him down. AFO said his body wasn't moving as he commands, he's basically being nerfed and can't properly retaliate against him. Also, Endeavor was likely under hysterical strength/Plus Ultra power buff during that time.

Which is something anyone in the verse seems to be capable of doing. And having new techniques or whatever doesn't mean his power output increased.

Obviously if I'm outvoted there is nothing I can really say on this matter, but...

Even if Endeavor is stronger, Weakened AFO still scales above him. (Can block his attacks just fine and severely injure him)

Unless we're saying AFO also grew stronger as well? The scaling chain would look like this in this case.

Endeavor (Pre-Final Act) < Weakened All Might = USJ Nomu = Weakened AFO (Pre-Final Act) < High-Ends and Incomplete Shigaraki < Mirko's kicks < Plasma Cannon < Bakugo (Full Body Cluster) < Endeavor (Final Act) < Weakened AFO (Final Act) < Rewind AFO and whoever else since anything above this doesn't matter.

I'm not doing the amount of <<< things because they don't mean anything, this is just shows who's stronger and not by how much.

I'm not sold on this stuff, unless we're saying Endeavor's Plus Ultra power made him this strong and that's what AFO meant?
 
I don't see why Endeavor couldn't just get stronger, it's literally a consistent mechanic in MHA that people who are pushed to their limits awaken to greater power... Deku, Bakugo, Todoroki, Shigaraki, Toga, Twice, and even god dang Uraraka did this...
 
I don't see why Endeavor couldn't just get stronger, it's literally a consistent mechanic in MHA that people who are pushed to their limits awaken to greater power... Deku, Bakugo, Todoroki, Shigaraki, Toga, Twice, and even god dang Uraraka did this...
Yeah, also like We literally see he still trains and didn't he have his kids with a ice Quirk not because he couldn't get stronger but because his body just overheats when he uses his power too long
 
I won't argue anymore than I've currently have, I've made my points clear. If I'm outvoted there is nothing I can do about it.

Should I add this to the OP as well?

Endeavor getting a Final War Arc key and AFO's Final War Arc key scaling up accordingly?

Dynamight

Tier: High 6-C
with Explosion, higher with Cluster, far higher with Howitzer Impact: Cluster

His Cluster blast slightly stinged Complete Shigaraki, making them stronger than Mirko's kicks and Suneater's Plasma Cannon which didn't even faze him.

Endeavor

Tier: High 6-C
with Hellflame

Has gotten stronger than before. AFO stated he packed more power stronger than Dynamight's Cluster, which is superior to Mirko's attacks and Suneater's Plasma Cannon.

Endeavor's Sandbox.

All For One

Tier: High 6-C
, higher with Rewind Drug, far higher with Omni-Factor Unleash

Stronger than before. Can injure Endeavor with his attacks and tore his through his arm with Rivet Stab.
 
The overheating is part of why he couldn't get even stronger in the first place.

Do note that it's not impossible for Endeavor to still get even stronger, in fact it's quite easy to see that it could've happened, just that we need a concrete evidence to justify that his AP did increase as fact in his profile.
It's easier to see other characters have massive, practically nonsensical growths mainly because of the latter adjective; they jump tiers, sometimes several tiers above their previous tier, either through training or awakening (or something that just kinda happens), so it's easier to notice and take note of.

As it stands, Enji had new attacks, but he could've done the same thing to AFO even without any AP increase. Even as early as Kamino Raid, Endeavor's flames could already match a charged Air Cannon from AFO, after all.

People could vote for it and consolidate stuff if it gets approved however, I guess.
 
Currently the only thing accepted is Bakugo not scaling to AFO in anyway.

Note: For now Bakugo's AP won't be touched at all, as both methods are rejected. I'll make another CRT soon after that discuss the Endeavor and Bakugo stuff above.

@Damage3245

Could you give your thoughts on Bakugo's Speed and Limited Dura Negation?

@DemonGodMitchAubin

Could you give your thoughts on Rewind AFO's scaling method and regen, along with Bakugo's Speed and Limited Dura Negation?
 
Agreed with Bakugo's speed upgrade.

I think I disagree with the Durability Negation. All he's doing is targeting a vulnerability that anyone could do with a comparable weapon. If a person shoots an energy beam into someone's mouth I wouldn't say they have Durability Negation. If a person stuck a gun in another person's mouth and shot them I wouldn't say they have Durability Negation.

Can be noted under his tactics though.
 
Agreeing with Damage, not sure how this is durability negation whenever he's simply attacking a weak point. It'd be different if the implanted the explosion within the body itself like Ryou or entering the opponent's blood stream then blowing up.

That's like giving a sniper durability negation for shooting an elephant in between the eyes which is a weak point for said elephant.
 
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