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Othinus vs Sailor Moon
- Thread starter P.Gyuri
- Start date
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Sailor cosmos should win this since she has a lot of hax, chaos's hax, and has high resistance to hax.
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Othinus One Shots, more Hax and better feats 
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sailor moon has resistance to hax, she's not going down easily.
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Othinus looks like she only has probability and matter manipulation going for her. Sailor Cosmos trumps her in both Magic and time-space. Plus, Usagi has a few ways of trapping, sealing and imprisonment and due to her existing outside the laws of cause and effect, Othinus can't do that much. Cosmos should take this.
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Sailor Cosmos. Reasons above.
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Othinus vs Athena all over again. Still voting for Usagi. Othinus can't deal with acausal beings and Usagi has a lot more hax than her.
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While I agree that Othinus looses, where does "can't deal with acausal beings" part come from?ScarletFirefly said:
If it is regenerating from another timeline kind, I suppose, but usually it is just immunity to causality manipulation and that isn't othinus only strong ability (and on 2-C scale, causality manipulation isn't even impressive in any way)
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Maybe I just expressed myself incorrectly.DontTalk said:
I meant that Othinus' causality and probability manipulation do not work against an acausal being, which has no end and no beginning. If you kill said being, it can reemerge from different timelines, meaning that probability manipulation will not affect her, and neither will causality manipulation.
Going by her profile, one of her strongest attacks is the Gungnir spear, which manipulates probability to always hit the target.
EDIT: Forgot to ask, why do you think Othinus looses?
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Othinus loses, since she is a glass canon.
Acausality does usually not guarantee that one can reemerge from other timelines or anything. It usually just means that one is uneffected by changes made to the past and immune to causality manipulation.
So normal killing often still works just fine. I don't know if sailor cosmos is one of the characters where it does more. Is she?
That aside I don't see any reason probablility manipulation is affected by that either way (I mean even if she can regenerate from other timelines it won't kill, but work just fine...)
As said causality manipulation on 2-C level is mostly irrelevant, since most characters on that level can take their timeline being destroyed, implying that such things don't help in the first place. (at least the usual kind of causality manipulation and not the higher planes version)
That said Gugnirs spear isn't as notable of a technique for Othinus actually, her usual reality warping is probably her most useful ability and is what she usually uses in battle (her standard move would be to just destroy the universe via that method as soon as teh battle begins). Aside from that changing laws of nature and math is nice.
As said doesn't change the results at all, but I don't see any particular weakness against acausal beings, as her main damage doing method isn't relying on it.
Acausality does usually not guarantee that one can reemerge from other timelines or anything. It usually just means that one is uneffected by changes made to the past and immune to causality manipulation.
So normal killing often still works just fine. I don't know if sailor cosmos is one of the characters where it does more. Is she?
That aside I don't see any reason probablility manipulation is affected by that either way (I mean even if she can regenerate from other timelines it won't kill, but work just fine...)
As said causality manipulation on 2-C level is mostly irrelevant, since most characters on that level can take their timeline being destroyed, implying that such things don't help in the first place. (at least the usual kind of causality manipulation and not the higher planes version)
That said Gugnirs spear isn't as notable of a technique for Othinus actually, her usual reality warping is probably her most useful ability and is what she usually uses in battle (her standard move would be to just destroy the universe via that method as soon as teh battle begins). Aside from that changing laws of nature and math is nice.
As said doesn't change the results at all, but I don't see any particular weakness against acausal beings, as her main damage doing method isn't relying on it.
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Woudn't a being with Causality Manipulation be able to just negate probabilty laws and the newly made nature laws, since it governs cause and effect? It can just erase the new laws of nature and esentially make their own.DontTalk said:
It would take a high level of reality warping to put down acausal beings I think.
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As said acausality users are usually killable as normal, since in most cases it is more "rejecting changes made to causality" than every point in their life being a starting point form which they can make changes or similar.
To the causality manipulation question: For one thing if you are dead before you use it is useless.
Similar with how it is with reality warping or conceptual manipulation, if it can negate that is more or less a question of priority. If I make a natural law that states that causality manipulation doesn't exist, can you then use causality manipulation to make it so that the law was never established?
In the end causality manipulation is often not more useful than ordinary reality warping, because of this two reasons.
Edit: Oh and if something is changed in all the timeline (like for example destroying the timeline or making a change from the every beginning) normal causality manipulation can not really reset that, since the cause or effect aren't really part of that timeline anymore (since it was always like that).
To the causality manipulation question: For one thing if you are dead before you use it is useless.
Similar with how it is with reality warping or conceptual manipulation, if it can negate that is more or less a question of priority. If I make a natural law that states that causality manipulation doesn't exist, can you then use causality manipulation to make it so that the law was never established?
In the end causality manipulation is often not more useful than ordinary reality warping, because of this two reasons.
Edit: Oh and if something is changed in all the timeline (like for example destroying the timeline or making a change from the every beginning) normal causality manipulation can not really reset that, since the cause or effect aren't really part of that timeline anymore (since it was always like that).
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Ok bear with me here, it's 2:30 AM here and I can't sleep so I'm probably missing something
You're saying that an acausal being has more to do with "rejecting changes made to reality" than resurrection from different timelines. Now if you're making a natural law that states that causality manipulation doesn't exist, woulnd't this be a "change to reality" and therefore can not affect the acausal being sicne it reject this change?
Also about the timeline destruction. High level causality manipulation would just either reinstate the destroyed timeline or create a new one identical to the first since he can redirect any cause to any effect or undo anything by inverting the relation between cause and effect.
You're saying that an acausal being has more to do with "rejecting changes made to reality" than resurrection from different timelines. Now if you're making a natural law that states that causality manipulation doesn't exist, woulnd't this be a "change to reality" and therefore can not affect the acausal being sicne it reject this change?
Also about the timeline destruction. High level causality manipulation would just either reinstate the destroyed timeline or create a new one identical to the first since he can redirect any cause to any effect or undo anything by inverting the relation between cause and effect.
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Congratulations, seems we are in the same timezone. Just that I am studying math at this time of the day...
I am saying that it is "rejecting changes made to causality", not reality. And that is only the case that I usually see, not necessarily the only one.
But let me give an example:
Event A: Character A's mother gives birth to character A.
Event B: Character A grows up healthy.
Event C: Character A gets a knife stuck in his throat.
Causality chain as usual would be A -> B -> C
Lets say character A has acausality like usual characters have.
If now someone goes to the past and kills Character A's mother, causality would be dictate that from now on Character A was never born and doesn't grow up healty and doesn't get a knife stuck in his throat.
But Character A has acauaslity, so while the world around him changes accordingly, he isn't affected by the chain in causality. For someone in the new chain of causality, in which he never was born, it would appear like he exists without there being a cause for his existence (which is true since the cause doesn't exist anymore).
But when it comes to him dying from getting a knife stuck in his throat it is different.
That part was in the causality chain all along, so if the causality remains unchanged, he isn't protected from it.
Causality in an unchanged form just makes him die in that event, no causality is changed there at all.
So of course acausality doesn't affect the effects of changing natural laws, but the initial comment was given to the matter of causality manipulation in the sense that other abilities can stop causality manipulaton from being used just like the other way around (since you can not use what you don't have anymore to make it so that you have it again).
About the timeline destruction:
It is true that he can create a new one or rewrite it after, since causality manipulation can be used as reality warping if it is on sufficiently high level (so not all causality manipulation).
But what I meant is that he can not undo it before it effects him or undo it after, at least not on lower plane.
Causality of the timeline is just that of the timeline, if the timeline is destroyed or rewritten then the process of it being rewritten never happened in the timeline. In other words neither the cause of timeline rewriting nor the effect is part of the causality of the rewritten timeline anymore.
In the prior example if there is "Event D: Because Character A dies Character B rewrites the timeline so that he doesn't", then that process isn't part of the new causality. That is because there is no cause anymore for Character B to rewrite the timeline (after all Character A doesn't die anymore) and the effect also doesn't happen anymore, since the timeline already is and always was in the state it has after being rewritten.
On a higher plane of existence it is something else. If you can watch the time as a whole and how causality changes at certain points all this events would be in a logical causality, in which things happen in the order like the viewer would see them. In other words A causes B causes C causes D, which couses the timeline being rewritten so that other events happen than before and D doesn't. That makes sense if viewed like that, but not if viewed as someone that actually follows causality like normal.
So if someones causality manipulation is, like often the case for 2-C, limited to the timeline it can not undo changes of the sort that make it so that the changes themself don't have to be made anymore.
If someones causality manipulation works even outside of the causality of the timeline (which needs more feats, than usual causality manipulation) than it can also change the causality so that the effect of the action of rewriting causlity never happened. If he isn't on such a higher plane than the effect of changing causality / rewriting the timeline makes it so that itself never happened from that perspective and can logically also not be undone, since it was never done.
So all in all causality is a matter of which order of causality it is viewed from.
I am saying that it is "rejecting changes made to causality", not reality. And that is only the case that I usually see, not necessarily the only one.
But let me give an example:
Event A: Character A's mother gives birth to character A.
Event B: Character A grows up healthy.
Event C: Character A gets a knife stuck in his throat.
Causality chain as usual would be A -> B -> C
Lets say character A has acausality like usual characters have.
If now someone goes to the past and kills Character A's mother, causality would be dictate that from now on Character A was never born and doesn't grow up healty and doesn't get a knife stuck in his throat.
But Character A has acauaslity, so while the world around him changes accordingly, he isn't affected by the chain in causality. For someone in the new chain of causality, in which he never was born, it would appear like he exists without there being a cause for his existence (which is true since the cause doesn't exist anymore).
But when it comes to him dying from getting a knife stuck in his throat it is different.
That part was in the causality chain all along, so if the causality remains unchanged, he isn't protected from it.
Causality in an unchanged form just makes him die in that event, no causality is changed there at all.
So of course acausality doesn't affect the effects of changing natural laws, but the initial comment was given to the matter of causality manipulation in the sense that other abilities can stop causality manipulaton from being used just like the other way around (since you can not use what you don't have anymore to make it so that you have it again).
About the timeline destruction:
It is true that he can create a new one or rewrite it after, since causality manipulation can be used as reality warping if it is on sufficiently high level (so not all causality manipulation).
But what I meant is that he can not undo it before it effects him or undo it after, at least not on lower plane.
Causality of the timeline is just that of the timeline, if the timeline is destroyed or rewritten then the process of it being rewritten never happened in the timeline. In other words neither the cause of timeline rewriting nor the effect is part of the causality of the rewritten timeline anymore.
In the prior example if there is "Event D: Because Character A dies Character B rewrites the timeline so that he doesn't", then that process isn't part of the new causality. That is because there is no cause anymore for Character B to rewrite the timeline (after all Character A doesn't die anymore) and the effect also doesn't happen anymore, since the timeline already is and always was in the state it has after being rewritten.
On a higher plane of existence it is something else. If you can watch the time as a whole and how causality changes at certain points all this events would be in a logical causality, in which things happen in the order like the viewer would see them. In other words A causes B causes C causes D, which couses the timeline being rewritten so that other events happen than before and D doesn't. That makes sense if viewed like that, but not if viewed as someone that actually follows causality like normal.
So if someones causality manipulation is, like often the case for 2-C, limited to the timeline it can not undo changes of the sort that make it so that the changes themself don't have to be made anymore.
If someones causality manipulation works even outside of the causality of the timeline (which needs more feats, than usual causality manipulation) than it can also change the causality so that the effect of the action of rewriting causlity never happened. If he isn't on such a higher plane than the effect of changing causality / rewriting the timeline makes it so that itself never happened from that perspective and can logically also not be undone, since it was never done.
So all in all causality is a matter of which order of causality it is viewed from.
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Was a very interesting explanation. Thanks and sorry for making you write all that ^_^
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Every 2-C character can destroy a timeline.
That a good bunch of them are also capable of manipulating time comes with that, as it is far from rare for them to destroy the timeline by reality warping it and not just exploding it.
So for example arceus and dialga can do that, Pre-Crisis superman can, Archie Sonic can, Haruhi can etc.
Technically all reality warpers on 2-C level can do it and all immeasureable beings as well.
So it is realy part of the standard abilities most 2-C have. (it is part of the "Time manipulation" most of them have listed)
That a good bunch of them are also capable of manipulating time comes with that, as it is far from rare for them to destroy the timeline by reality warping it and not just exploding it.
So for example arceus and dialga can do that, Pre-Crisis superman can, Archie Sonic can, Haruhi can etc.
Technically all reality warpers on 2-C level can do it and all immeasureable beings as well.
So it is realy part of the standard abilities most 2-C have. (it is part of the "Time manipulation" most of them have listed)
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Not shown (why should they, not useful on their level at all), but since they can manipulate time freely they logically can. I mean if Dialga goes into the past, do you expect that the dialga that existed at that point in time just stops to exist for a bit? Not really, it would just exist twice then.
Time manipulation can be used to do such time traveling feats.
Essentially to duplicate yourself you just have to decide to travel to a point in time another you already exists in or to go to the future, grab yourself and timetravel back the exact point in time you came from.
It is the exact same effect.
So yeah time manipulation users on such level can generally do that without a problem.
Time manipulation can be used to do such time traveling feats.
Essentially to duplicate yourself you just have to decide to travel to a point in time another you already exists in or to go to the future, grab yourself and timetravel back the exact point in time you came from.
It is the exact same effect.
So yeah time manipulation users on such level can generally do that without a problem.
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I'm giving this win to othinus simply because I have been reading each profiels and taking a look at the attacks themselves through clips or chapters and while Usagi does have a lot of firepower as of, yet known of her attacks has shown to actually destory at the world, while Othinus has shown to be able to if she so desired. Her crossbow along can destory earth before Moon can react. the fact that she can make one of her arrows ignore the concept of number and cause a torrential rain of arrows that colored the night sky like stars just shows just how much damage she can cause if she so desired.
I don't want to put any hate on the sailor moon franchies and I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience for it but for someone who can casualy damage the planet they live on its amazing how little damage is done. I'll admit that this vote is a bit bias because of my expierence in To Aru is more then Sailor moon but I find it hard to believe that, if these people are capable of destroying the planet like ease, that Tokyo is still (relitevily) intact after the fight with Gloxiana/Chaos.
I don't want to put any hate on the sailor moon franchies and I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience for it but for someone who can casualy damage the planet they live on its amazing how little damage is done. I'll admit that this vote is a bit bias because of my expierence in To Aru is more then Sailor moon but I find it hard to believe that, if these people are capable of destroying the planet like ease, that Tokyo is still (relitevily) intact after the fight with Gloxiana/Chaos.
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she only used her crossbow during when she was dying to the fairy spell, its not only usable during that form, I base this on the fact that she was useing her phase shifts during the attack and her powerful magical abilites to change the properties of the arrows themselves so I assume she can use it whenever she wanted just decided to do it then.
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