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Since I can talk about Pokémon again and finally learned the forum move has been done, I’m responding to an objection to my position on a certain thread.
That thread was closed because “Another one bites the dust” without my position having been actually debunked and while I was writing a reply, so it’s OK to continue this.

The_real_cal_howard: “>Tajiri has never wanted violent content for the series [Scans of Pokémon Adventures].”
Me: “So that particular manga is violent.”
The_real_cal_howard: “‘This is the comic that most resembles the world I was trying to convey.’
-Satoshi Tajiri, creator of Pokemo”

So the franchise is violent after all and that manga series’s canon level is comparable to the game series’s, but how powerful are Pokémon in both works?
Statements not supported by actual moments may be just hyperboles.

1) Are Marowak really large mountain level with Thick Clubs?
1a) Are Dugtrio and Diglett really mountain level+ and multi-city block level+ respectively?
1b) Are Pidgey really multi-city block level+?

2) Charizard and equals can’t be fazed by Defog, but that move is mountain level because it can clear away 3.5 million km^3 of fog? Five other field moves were needed for smaller tasks in that area, and they are in the manga, so they weren’t just game mechanics and the strength needed for that one must be decreased by artistic license.
3) Jolteon and Pidgeot are comparable to the aforementioned species.
4) Catastropika can leave an almost 2.5 m^2 lightning stike? That “bolt” is just a lot of sparks surrounding the mouse.

1a) Earthquake and Earth Power can be tanked by species needing Iron Tail to have a steel tail, so the strength needed for them must be decreased by artistic license.
1b) Twister is just as large as its users and Whirlwind isn’t much larger.

5) Horsea are comparable to the species exposed in the last sub-point.
6) “When several of these Pokémon [Pikachu] gather, their electricity can build and cause lightning storms”: This statement’s meaning must be literal even without feats.
7) Cleffa rode on meteors up until the crashes and survived? Just like someone else said, they may've jumped off the rocks prior to the impacts.

8) By retcon, Ride Pokémon helping people certain ways would be pointless if weaker species could do the same.
  • “Only strong species helping people those ways is just a game mechanic”: It's in the manga.
  • “Captured individuals strong enough for those tasks ‘can’t do them either’”: That’s one non-canon game mechanic.
  • “Weaker species can tank attacks from those able to smash boulders”: The latter need charging moves needing distance (*) for that task.
  • “Species able to smash boulders ‘can’t smash weaker objects’”: That’s another non-canon game mechanic, yet they still can’t smash tougher objects.
(*) Since TV Tropes is right about non-canon game mechanics and the 61,000 x 290 x 200 m are something, the site must be right about outer areas rendered smaller too.

As a conclusion said for a third time, canon in fiction is determined by general content.
 
I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

You seem to point out flaws in tiering but your conclusion is somehow about canon...?
 
1. I mean its just scaling
2. and why because other field moves are also used well cut is just casual cutting down a tree Strength is LS Surf, Fly, Dive and Waterfall are for movement and rock climb is climbing
3. Again just scaling
4. That is actually just plasma it is not sparks as pikachus sparks look different
Second 1. Again with the artistic license is that your only argument and other mons do tank earthquake without it.
multiple of those scans say other wise and the only example of that was when it was still in the middle of being used
5. Again scaling
6. yeah the pokedex is literally scientists studying these mons
7. Sure but they still would need to tank moving at the speed of a meteor
8. you realize those examples were all used for mobility right
 
1. I mean its just scaling
2. and why because other field moves are also used well cut is just casual cutting down a tree Strength is LS Surf, Fly, Dive and Waterfall are for movement and rock climb is climbing
3. Again just scaling
4. That is actually just plasma it is not sparks as pikachus sparks look different
Second 1. Again with the artistic license is that your only argument and other mons do tank earthquake without it.
multiple of those scans say other wise and the only example of that was when it was still in the middle of being used
5. Again scaling
6. yeah the pokedex is literally scientists studying these mons
7. Sure but they still would need to tank moving at the speed of a meteor
8. you realize those examples were all used for mobility right
1) Cubone scale to Pokémon whose Twister is just as large as them and whose Whirlwind isn’t much larger.
2) The strengths needed for those five field moves are more consistent than the one needed for that lone field move.
3) Jolteon and Pidgeot scale to Pokémon whose Earthquake can be tanked by others needing Iron Tail to have a steel tail.
4) Anyway, Catastropika can’t leave a 2.5 m^2 lightning strike.
1) I pointed out actual reasons for artistic license, and I only used the concept twice, less often than you guys use the “low-end outliers” and “game mechanics” ones.
5) Horsea scale to… See point 1.
6) Ok.
7) Quite impressive for Pokémon.
8) And the point is…
 
1) Cubone scale to Pokémon whose Twister is just as large as them and whose Whirlwind isn’t much larger.
Already debunked there twister is many times the size of them when shown
2) The strengths needed for those five field moves are more consistent than the one needed for that lone field move.
are you dumb they are never used in the same application
3) Jolteon and Pidgeot scale to Pokémon whose Earthquake can be tanked by others needing Iron Tail to have a steel tail.
Earthquake can be tanked by pokemon without having a iron tail
4) Anyway, Catastropika can’t leave a 2.5 m^2 lightning strike.
Denial now
1) I pointed out actual reasons for artistic license, and I only used the concept twice, less often than you guys use the “low-end outliers” and “game mechanics” ones.
You don't even know what game mechanics are
5) Horsea scale to… See point 1.
Yeah see point 1
no argument
7) Quite impressive for Pokémon.
and no argument again
8) And the point is…
The fact that the ride pokemon are never used to destroy stuff they are just used for travel
 
1) Look at the “In the Pokémon Adventures manga” sub-section of this.
2) The five field moves’ strength types are different but their strength levels are similar.
3) My point is that Pokémon with tails and bodies weaker than steel couldn’t tank a mountain level+ or multi-city block level+ attack, so the strength needed for…
4) I mean it’s a lot of sparks or a lot of plasma surrounding the mouse instead of a 2.5m^2 lightning bolt.
1) How do you know I don’t know what game mechanics are? And if I don’t, then please tell me what they are.
5) Yeah, see point 1.
6) Of course there’s no argument, as I’m accepting that statement.
7) I’m saying that may be a high-end for Pokémon.
8) The Tauros and Sharpedo are used to smash boulders, not to mention a Squirtle couldn’t do what the Lapras can, a Pidgey couldn’t do what the Charizard can and a Machop couldn’t do what the Machamp can.
 
1) Look at the “In the Pokémon Adventures manga” sub-section of this.
yeah half of those are many times bigger then the pokemon
2) The five field moves’ strength types are different but their strength levels are similar.
and how its literally completly seperate categories LS/=/AP
3) My point is that Pokémon with tails and bodies weaker than steel couldn’t tank a mountain level+ or multi-city block level+ attack, so the strength needed for…
They literally can tank those hits
4) I mean it’s a lot of sparks or a lot of plasma surrounding the mouse instead of a 2.5m^2 lightning bolt.
We actually see the plasma in the animation which is a lightning bolt
1) How do you know I don’t know what game mechanics are? And if I don’t, then please tell me what they are.
Because they are used in your argument They are things that happen in the games so they don't break
5) Yeah, see point 1.
6) Of course there’s no argument, as I’m accepting that statement.
7) I’m saying that may be a high-end for Pokémon.
8) The Tauros and Sharpedo are used to smash boulders, not to mention a Squirtle couldn’t do what the Lapras can, a Pidgey couldn’t do what the Charizard can and a Machop couldn’t do what the Machamp can.
and show me tauros and Sharpedo being used to do that in the manga because all of the examples were moving
 
1) Two tornados a few times larger than their users’ small bodies at most.
2) Each of those five field moves is at a low level of its category.
3) With those bodies weaker than steel, the strength needed for those two moves must be decreased by artistic license.
4) Plasma released by the mouse and surrounding him, not lightning from a cloud.
1) I don’t know what game mechanics are because they’re used in my argument? And what do you mean by “they don’t break”?
8) The manga is based on the games, nuff said; and even if it weren’t, a Squirtle still couldn’t… a Pidgey couldn’t… and a Machop couldn’t…
 
"The move is weaker because they tank it".

Actually, being steel makes you weaker to Earthquake.
 
1) Two tornados a few times larger than their users’ small bodies at most.
they were massive compared to smaller pokemon and still multiple times bigger then larger pokemon like gyarados
2) Each of those five field moves is at a low level of its category.
different categories and basically no other moves take up those categories anyway
3) With those bodies weaker than steel, the strength needed for those two moves must be decreased by artistic license.
Again no its not you need proof of course you have none
4) Plasma released by the mouse and surrounding him, not lightning from a cloud.
Plasma is what makes up lightning lightning=plasma
1) I don’t know what game mechanics are because they’re used in my argument? And what do you mean by “they don’t break”?
Game mechanics are needed for The games to function properly
8) The manga is based on the games, nuff said; and even if it weren’t, a Squirtle still couldn’t… a Pidgey couldn’t… and a Machop couldn’t…
Squirtle is too small for a person to surf on Pidgey is too small for a person to fly on Machop can move boulders in games anyways
 
1) Multiple times larger than Gyarados? Large compared to small Pokémon, yes; and even Dragonite’s is barely comparable to these.
2) Rock Climb users are stronger than donkeys, Surf ones are stronger than ducks, Waterfall ones are stronger than salmons, Cut ones are stronger than beavers and Rock Smash ones are stronger than gorillas; but the real-world strength needed to clear away 3.5 million km^3 of fog is too impressive compared to the other five.
3) Ok, step by step: Those Pokémon need Iron Tail to have a steel tail / So, their bodies are weaker than steel / With such weak bodies, they couldn’t tank mountain or multi-city block level+ attacks / Therefore, the strength needed for those moves must be decreased by artistic license.
4) That plasma is constantly released by the mouse even while he’s already on the ground, so it’s not a 2.5 m^2 lightning strike.
1) Of course, Poké Balls being able to catch Pokémon is a game mechanic set for the game to function properly and because they canonically can catch them.
8) Trainers could hang onto Squirrel’s shells and Pidgey’s legs if the Pokémon could do those tasks, and Machop’s case was retconned by Poké Ride.
 
Can you make a clean summary of what changes you are proposing?
The strength needed for Defog must be decreased by artistic license.
Catastropika doesn't leave a 2.5 m^2 lightning bolt.
The strength needed for Earthquake and Earth Power must be decreased by artistic license.
Twister and Whirlwind aren't much larger than their users or even larger.
Cleffa must've jumped from the meteors prior to the crashes.
See also the point 8 of the OP.
 
1) Multiple times larger than Gyarados? Large compared to small Pokémon, yes; and even Dragonite’s is barely comparable to these.
They don't need to be that size all the time especially when it is a spammed move
2) Rock Climb users are stronger than donkeys, Surf ones are stronger than ducks, Waterfall ones are stronger than salmons, Cut ones are stronger than beavers and Rock Smash ones are stronger than gorillas; but the real-world strength needed to clear away 3.5 million km^3 of fog is too impressive compared to the other five.
Why would that matter you literally have no argument other then well other HM moves do this it doesn't freaking matter they have never shown the slightest strain when doing it
3) Ok, step by step: Those Pokémon need Iron Tail to have a steel tail / So, their bodies are weaker than steel / With such weak bodies, they couldn’t tank mountain or multi-city block level+ attacks / Therefore, the strength needed for those moves must be decreased by artistic license.
They tank them but you are complaining that Since pokemon have iron tail which is just a name they are weaker then steel which is incorrect
also who knows what pokemon steel even is not a argument
4) That plasma is constantly released by the mouse even while he’s already on the ground, so it’s not a 2.5 m^2 lightning strike.
Its constant at that point if I used the unconstant ones it would be a 5+Meter lightning strike
1) Of course, Poké Balls being able to catch Pokémon is a game mechanic set for the game to function properly and because they canonically can catch them.
8) Trainers could hang onto Squirrel’s shells and Pidgey’s legs if the Pokémon could do those tasks, and Machop’s case was retconned by Poké Ride
why would they do that you know how inefficient that would be
your prood for it being retconned is
 
1) The tornados are still that size only if used by Dragonite or Gyarados.
2) Those Pokémon can’t do those task without those moves, and the real-world strength for clearing away 3.5 million km^3 being too bigger than the other five means it must be decreased by artistic license for the series.
3) It’s not because of the name but because the move is a steel-type one.
4) The plasma is constant from beginning to end and its radius is barely over half a meter long.
1) Poké Balls’ ability to catch Pokémon being both a game mechanic and canon isn’t inefficient.
8) Ride Pokémon helping people those ways would be pointless if weaker species could do the same, and it’s in the manga too.
 
The fact that you say they are weaker than steel when some early stage are litteraly made of steel.
 
Their tails are made of steel while using Iron Tail, but their bodies are made of flesh while tanking Earthquake or Earth Power.
 
It's just a move name. And I'm referring to the shit ton of Pokemon being litteral steel.

By your logic Magnemite is more durable than a Charizard.
 
It's not because of the name but because the move is a steel-type one.
Steel-type Pokémon may be weak against ground-type attacks, but flesh Pokémon are another matter.
So, there's no "By your logic...".
 
Imagine making your body as "hard as steel" being used to downgrade any verse where we have a prominent metal user... This is literally just a move that uses the power of metal to strengthen their attack power. It doesn't make them any weaker.

Also,

"Their tails are made of steel while using Iron Tail, but their bodies are made of flesh while tanking Earthquake or Earth Power."

Explain Steelix, Magnemite, Aggron (Aron for that matter), Registeel, Metagross (Beldum for that matter), etc, etc. Do their bodies just suddenly fleshin up when hit by a ground type move?
 
It's not because of the name but because the move is a steel-type one.
Steel-type Pokémon may be weak against ground-type attacks, but flesh Pokémon are another matter.
So, there's no "By your logic...".
What are you even trying to say?
 
Imagine making your body as "hard as steel" being used to downgrade any verse where we have a prominent metal user... This is literally just a move that uses the power of metal to strengthen their attack power. It doesn't make them any weaker.
And what's the point of "a move that uses the power of metal", if not becoming as hard as metal?
Also,

"Their tails are made of steel while using Iron Tail, but their bodies are made of flesh while tanking Earthquake or Earth Power."

Explain Steelix, Magnemite, Aggron (Aron for that matter), Registeel, Metagross (Beldum for that matter), etc, etc. Do their bodies just suddenly fleshin up when hit by a ground type move?
Steel-type Pokémon are weak against ground-type attacks, but for flesh ones, the following applies:
Those species need Iron Tail to have a steel tail / So, their bodies are weaker than steel / With such weak bodies, they couldn’t tank mountain or multi-city block level+ attacks / Therefore, the strength needed for those moves must be decreased by artistic license.
 
It's litteraly as ridiculous as putting all swordmen in fiction has 9-C because swords are that strong.
 
That’s a shitty argument. It’s like saying a higher-dimensional plane isn’t higher dimensional because it has gravity.
 
And what's the point of "a move that uses the power of metal", if not becoming as hard as metal?

Because metal as a whole varies in toughness. Even something like steel in fiction can range from well, regular steel, to being able to tank planetary blasts and shit. This means nothing really. Enhanced steel is still steel, but stronger.
Steel-type Pokémon are weak against ground-type attacks, but for flesh ones, the following applies:
Those species need Iron Tail to have a steel tail / So, their bodies are weaker than steel / With such weak bodies, they couldn’t tank mountain or multi-city block level+ attacks / Therefore, the strength needed for those moves must be decreased by artistic license.
Yes, they could as they do all the time. The feats are quite blatant. You seem to think all steel and metal are a certain tier when in fiction this is objectively not the case. A fleshy body can still tank Large Mountain attacks as Pokemon bodies have shown to blatantly do this. Pokemon with metal armor and stuff are simply more durable. It isn't that hard to understand.
 
What is this artistic license bullshit about.

Are you trying to claim that the metal they magically turn their nody into is only as strong as normal ones? I'm lost, someone give me a summary.
 
That’s a shitty argument. It’s like saying a higher-dimensional plane isn’t higher dimensional because it has gravity.
Nah, your higher dimensional multiversal buster got cut by a metal sword, ergo they are less durable that steel and thus cannot tank even City Block level attacks despite doing so multiple times.
 
What is this artistic license bullshit about.

Are you trying to claim that the metal they magically turn their nody into is only as strong as normal ones? I'm lost, someone give me a summary.
This is exactly what he's trying to say. He seems to assume all metals are the exact same tier, instead of going with the more obvious notion that the metal Pokemon use are in general far more powerful as shown by feats.
 
A stronger goku got hurt by a bullet, the gun is mighter than the sword, therefore 9-C.

Wanna know someone who is bullet proof and thus stomps goku?

Colossus.
 
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