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Hey all. Been a while since I've done this or made any thread in general as I've been extremely busy IRL as of recently because of work, school, blah blah blah responsibilities. So I haven't been very active for one reason or another. Something however came up to me that I wanted to make a thread for, and because it's probably pretty important as part of the tiering standards, it's being made in the staff forum. You all can decide whether "Staff only" or not should apply here, but here we go.
Now, as the title gives away, this thread concerns our rules / standards, for characters who receive a "Varies" rating from X tier to Y tier. The concept of varies itself is totally fine with me, so this thread isn't to remove it. However, revising how it's applied or what actually qualifies for it is more of what's on the table, as I was presented with things that currently apply for a varies rating that doesn't make sense to me, and hence, here we are.
These are characters, weapons, etcetera, whose power levels are heavily inconsistent and/or subject to change. As well as for profiles of races/species whose power levels vary depending on the member.
Obviously, "varies" applies in a decently big number of different ways that are very case by case dependent, like races or species as already pointed out, and thats fine. But one such method that we seem to accept as a varies tier for characters is for characters that, say, restrain their levels of power and actively weaken themselves down. Like for example, if they create avatars of themselves and those avatars are as weak or as strong as the true being desires them to be for whatever particular matter. Oblivion is one such example of this.
Varies up to Low Outerverse level (Its manifestations and avatars can be as weak as Deathurge - who is just a squirrel, or as powerful as the Chaos King)
This is where the issue starts to come up.
While the basic concept of making yourself, or some avatar, as weak or as strong as you want can seem like varies....how exactly is this really any different from a character just simply holding their own power back on purpose because of [insert here] reasoning? Much less meaning their power can change on a whim or fluctuate? I know varies doesnt apply to only one thing or another, so things like races, species or transformations that have their own power sets are something I won't yet touch on this. But when it comes to the matter of individual characters, I don't understand how its any different from someone not going at full power, or how holding back from using your real power means your power naturally changes from one tier or another on a dime (the latter I'll explain more below).
Any number of characters in a certain tier are able to hold back their power, or lower their strength, on purpose for a particular reason. Goku for instance can most certainly walk up to an opponent he wants to take it easy on and not use Low 2-C levels of strength against them. But would this mean he gets a varies tier between that and his real power? Of course not. And the list of what character to use as an example after him goes on, and on, and on, and on. No character should be getting a varies rating just for holding themselves back, which is something that over 97% of our sites characters would be in the realm of qualifying for based on this logic. Not without an actual real differentiation at the very least, and if there is one, I'd like for it to be explained please.
To comment on the matter of avatars specifically when comparing their situation to characters holding themselves back, as I was told this is something that should be different from one another, I don't even see what difference there is between these 2 things other than the methods between them being different. Using Goku again, take him and lower his KI / Power level down to whatever extent he wants to fight at when facing someone he wants to go easy on. Then take Oblivion, or any character that is capable of forming Avatars to fight with, and have them set that avatars power to [insert here] level to fight at. Other than the clear difference being Goku is fighting as himself and is directly setting the level of his power, and the avatar making character making a whole avatar that fights at the level of power the true being desires them to be at, what real difference is there between these 2 cases other than one case being glossed over with a fancy method of avatar creation? Both are still weakening themselves on purpose, purposely choosing to use less power than what they can operate at. And at that point, it begs the question on whether this should legitimately count as a varying tier and not just someone holding back in a particular instance separate from the power they normally use.
Which brings us to the point earlier about characters who's power, say, fluctuate or change levels on a dime. Or to add to this if we want, characters who's power under certain circumstances are fixed and are unchangeable in certain ways. These would be perfectly acceptable forms of varying tiers since the tiers would actually vary and are naturally set to be at different tiers.
A perfect example of a varies tier is Ditto from Pokemon. Ditto's tier isn't set at one tier, but several different tiers. His tier is completely dependent on the pokemon he turns into. He can become anything from a Magikarp and be 9-A, a Togepi and be 8-C, or a Pikachu and be High 7-A. And what he can't do is, say, become a Pikachu but take the 8-C level of power from Togepi and use it to be a 8-C Pikachu. Whatever Pokemon he becomes, he becomes their tier and STAYS at that tier until he becomes a different pokemon.
Another example that can be used for this is, say, Ichigo Kurosaki from Bleach. There was a point in Bleach where Ichigo's tier of power would fluctuate and become either fodder or very powerful at its highest and lowest. During his first battle against Ulquiorra and Yammy, Ichigo's power fluctuated wildly due to being incapable of controlling his inner hollow inside of him. And as Ulquiorra put it, Ichigo was no stronger than Chad or Orihime at his lowest, going as far as to say the lowest level of his spiritual pressure is "garbage". But when his spiritual pressure is at its highest, it even surpasses Ulquiorras. This isn't the best example for this since this happened only briefly for Ichigo in the series, and has long stopped being a thing once getting Hollowification, but the general message is what is supposed to be sent from this. His power became weak or strong on a dime against his control.
Now, we can play devils advocate and say that setting your own level of power to whatever extent you want lower than your real power can be considered a "varies" rating. Even if we can consider this a varies tier, and give it to the characters in question, what exactly is the point in doing this for a rating? Characters weakening themselves down happen only for very specific scenarios that are quite rare in the series they originate from, where 98% of the time, they are in battles or confrontations that they normally take seriously. Coming across an opponent you want to take it easy on isn't exactly an everyday thing, and our character pages are supposed to document the normal capabilities of the characters. If im normally a 5-B, can use 5-B power whenever I want to, and only very rarely use less than 5-B power against people I don't want to fight seriously against, why would I say I often vary my strength to something lower than 5-B to precisely as 5-B? And for what purpose?
And with that, there you have it. Others here can probably explain this better than me or mention better examples, so I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to take part in this, but this particular part of what we consider a varies tier is something that doesn't sit right with me right now and I wanted to bring this up. To reiterate, the concept of a varying tier is perfectly okay. My aim with this thread is have us look over what should and what shouldn't qualify for a varies tier.
Now, as the title gives away, this thread concerns our rules / standards, for characters who receive a "Varies" rating from X tier to Y tier. The concept of varies itself is totally fine with me, so this thread isn't to remove it. However, revising how it's applied or what actually qualifies for it is more of what's on the table, as I was presented with things that currently apply for a varies rating that doesn't make sense to me, and hence, here we are.
Variable Category
According to this page, here's our definition for the category on the variable tier:These are characters, weapons, etcetera, whose power levels are heavily inconsistent and/or subject to change. As well as for profiles of races/species whose power levels vary depending on the member.
Obviously, "varies" applies in a decently big number of different ways that are very case by case dependent, like races or species as already pointed out, and thats fine. But one such method that we seem to accept as a varies tier for characters is for characters that, say, restrain their levels of power and actively weaken themselves down. Like for example, if they create avatars of themselves and those avatars are as weak or as strong as the true being desires them to be for whatever particular matter. Oblivion is one such example of this.
Varies up to Low Outerverse level (Its manifestations and avatars can be as weak as Deathurge - who is just a squirrel, or as powerful as the Chaos King)
This is where the issue starts to come up.
While the basic concept of making yourself, or some avatar, as weak or as strong as you want can seem like varies....how exactly is this really any different from a character just simply holding their own power back on purpose because of [insert here] reasoning? Much less meaning their power can change on a whim or fluctuate? I know varies doesnt apply to only one thing or another, so things like races, species or transformations that have their own power sets are something I won't yet touch on this. But when it comes to the matter of individual characters, I don't understand how its any different from someone not going at full power, or how holding back from using your real power means your power naturally changes from one tier or another on a dime (the latter I'll explain more below).
Any number of characters in a certain tier are able to hold back their power, or lower their strength, on purpose for a particular reason. Goku for instance can most certainly walk up to an opponent he wants to take it easy on and not use Low 2-C levels of strength against them. But would this mean he gets a varies tier between that and his real power? Of course not. And the list of what character to use as an example after him goes on, and on, and on, and on. No character should be getting a varies rating just for holding themselves back, which is something that over 97% of our sites characters would be in the realm of qualifying for based on this logic. Not without an actual real differentiation at the very least, and if there is one, I'd like for it to be explained please.
To comment on the matter of avatars specifically when comparing their situation to characters holding themselves back, as I was told this is something that should be different from one another, I don't even see what difference there is between these 2 things other than the methods between them being different. Using Goku again, take him and lower his KI / Power level down to whatever extent he wants to fight at when facing someone he wants to go easy on. Then take Oblivion, or any character that is capable of forming Avatars to fight with, and have them set that avatars power to [insert here] level to fight at. Other than the clear difference being Goku is fighting as himself and is directly setting the level of his power, and the avatar making character making a whole avatar that fights at the level of power the true being desires them to be at, what real difference is there between these 2 cases other than one case being glossed over with a fancy method of avatar creation? Both are still weakening themselves on purpose, purposely choosing to use less power than what they can operate at. And at that point, it begs the question on whether this should legitimately count as a varying tier and not just someone holding back in a particular instance separate from the power they normally use.
Which brings us to the point earlier about characters who's power, say, fluctuate or change levels on a dime. Or to add to this if we want, characters who's power under certain circumstances are fixed and are unchangeable in certain ways. These would be perfectly acceptable forms of varying tiers since the tiers would actually vary and are naturally set to be at different tiers.
A perfect example of a varies tier is Ditto from Pokemon. Ditto's tier isn't set at one tier, but several different tiers. His tier is completely dependent on the pokemon he turns into. He can become anything from a Magikarp and be 9-A, a Togepi and be 8-C, or a Pikachu and be High 7-A. And what he can't do is, say, become a Pikachu but take the 8-C level of power from Togepi and use it to be a 8-C Pikachu. Whatever Pokemon he becomes, he becomes their tier and STAYS at that tier until he becomes a different pokemon.
Another example that can be used for this is, say, Ichigo Kurosaki from Bleach. There was a point in Bleach where Ichigo's tier of power would fluctuate and become either fodder or very powerful at its highest and lowest. During his first battle against Ulquiorra and Yammy, Ichigo's power fluctuated wildly due to being incapable of controlling his inner hollow inside of him. And as Ulquiorra put it, Ichigo was no stronger than Chad or Orihime at his lowest, going as far as to say the lowest level of his spiritual pressure is "garbage". But when his spiritual pressure is at its highest, it even surpasses Ulquiorras. This isn't the best example for this since this happened only briefly for Ichigo in the series, and has long stopped being a thing once getting Hollowification, but the general message is what is supposed to be sent from this. His power became weak or strong on a dime against his control.
Now, we can play devils advocate and say that setting your own level of power to whatever extent you want lower than your real power can be considered a "varies" rating. Even if we can consider this a varies tier, and give it to the characters in question, what exactly is the point in doing this for a rating? Characters weakening themselves down happen only for very specific scenarios that are quite rare in the series they originate from, where 98% of the time, they are in battles or confrontations that they normally take seriously. Coming across an opponent you want to take it easy on isn't exactly an everyday thing, and our character pages are supposed to document the normal capabilities of the characters. If im normally a 5-B, can use 5-B power whenever I want to, and only very rarely use less than 5-B power against people I don't want to fight seriously against, why would I say I often vary my strength to something lower than 5-B to precisely as 5-B? And for what purpose?
And with that, there you have it. Others here can probably explain this better than me or mention better examples, so I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to take part in this, but this particular part of what we consider a varies tier is something that doesn't sit right with me right now and I wanted to bring this up. To reiterate, the concept of a varying tier is perfectly okay. My aim with this thread is have us look over what should and what shouldn't qualify for a varies tier.
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