Sealing Away Naruto's 5-B in a Chibaku Tensei

[UchihaSlayer96]

Why is this so?
The Tenseigan moon calc isn't supposed to be treated as a limit. After all both instances are "Hamura power"

"Destroying the Sage's world" is not an inherently 5-B statement, and when we cross-examine it with both Toneri's original plan and the only know feat of Hamura's Tenseigan, which Toneri actually cites (the moon moving), then the 5-B interpretation becomes a lot weaker and less probable.

 

[karo_senpaii]

"Destroying the Sage's world" is not an inherently 5-B statement, and when we cross-examine it with both Toneri's original plan and the only know feat of Hamura's Tenseigan, which Toneri actually cites (the moon moving), then the 5-B interpretation becomes a lot weaker and less probable.

So? Why not still scale naruto to it? Whether it I'd 5C+ or 5B. Another thing I want to bring up is this. I don't really like this interpretation. Wasn't it stated that the tenseigan can bring back even something as a dead planet from his ashes? And if it is hamura tenseigan we are talking about according to toneri it was going to protect the castle completely from the full force of slamming the moon into earth. Isn't that Low 5b or 5b if I'm not mistaken?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Isn't that Low 5b or 5b if I'm not mistaken?

Nope

 

[karo_senpaii]

Nope

You sure? Sorry for the questions but why not? From the rough estimate I have crashing the moon into the earth at that speed would yield like 10^34 joules. Or am I doing something wrong?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You sure? Sorry for the questions but why not? From the rough estimate I have crashing the moon into the earth at that speed would yield like 10^34 joules. Or am I doing something wrong?

That is so wrong lol, the accepted caps for the moon moving towards earth in the last is 5-C+

 

[karo_senpaii]

That is so wrong lol, the accepted caps for the moon moving towards earth in the last is 5-C+

Okay. Anyways it doesn't change my opinion. naruto should still scale to LOJ as of that fight. And considering it is not even far off it there should be less issue

 

[Padaruyos]

Also just a fringe idea here, but can Base Naruto and Sasuke physicals be scaled to 44 Exatons since they each received half of Hagoromo's chakra/power?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Okay. Anyways it doesn't change my opinion. naruto should still scale to LOJ as of that fight. And considering it is not even far off it there should be less issue

The majestic attire already scales above LoJ now. LoJ is like ~248 exatons, the Majestic Attire is ~266 exatons.

 

[karo_senpaii]

The majestic attire already scales above LoJ now. LoJ is like ~248 exatons, the Majestic Attire is ~266 exatons.

More like naruto should scale to it on his own with kurama avatar. So MaS should be 496 exatons

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

More like naruto should scale to it on his own with kurama avatar. So MaS should be 496 exatons

Negative

 

[karo_senpaii]

Negative

Damn

 

[Hmptaka]

Premise​

SPCT does not scale to physicals.

Argument​

A common argument for SPCT scaling to physicals is that Chakra as a system is a UES, thus the SPCT jutsu as a jutsu would scale to physicals (of people like Hagoromo, Naruto, Sasuke, etc.). To cite the text of the ancient one himself, "These "Ace Techniques", however, differ from even regular Ninjutsu, not just physicals. They are usually FAR above everything in a character's arsenal, be it Ninjutsu or Taijutsu, and there's usually a very clear discernable reason for that being the case beyond raw power. I'll go over a few prominent "special moves" in hopes of explaining how they differ from regular techniques, and why their existence does NOT contradict the premise of this thread."

Claim 1: They are usually FAR above everything in a character's arsenal, be it Ninjutsu or Taijutsu

The SPCT is far above any other calc that the God Tiers scale to in both Ninjutsu and Taijutsu. The crux of this point is that the other techniques and avenues of scaling for those who have the SPCT is not consistent. The next highest feat for the verse is Toneri splitting the moon at 5-C. Which, regardless of which side of the camp you are on for TCM Toneri backscaling to Shippuden, is well over 100x weaker than the 5-B SPCT that everyone scales to.

Claim 2: there's usually a very clear discernable reason for that being the case beyond raw power

There is a clear reason for the SPCT being far beyond what we normally see from the characters, at least in the case in which we actually see the technique being used on screen. Kaguya uses the Byakugan to scan Naruto and Sasuke, we are shown that a special, extra-radiant source of chakra exists in both their hands associated with the SPCT seals. Black Zetsu also denotes that the SPCT as a sealing jutsu is most powerful, and that the power within the seals resonate when it's in proximity with its opposite. So, we know that the SPCT seals have a special chakra, as a jutsu itself it is held within a tier of its own, and that the powers resonate in combination with each other. All of which indicate that this jutsu is not a normal jutsu, and all of which offer some explanation for why it would be beyond the raw power of the SPCT users normally. Kaguya/Black Zetsu should be knowledgeable on these claims as well, considering Hagoromo and Hamura utilized this technique in the exact same manner as Naruto and Sasuke did, so she/it has experienced this jutsu in practice before. Additionally, the fourth databook states the SPCT compiles a large amount of chakra to create these satellites (moons). From everything we are given, the SPCT chakra is beyond the normal amount of chakra being utilized by these characters.

Shadow Assist​

Shadow gave me permission to cite their argument, and they worded it very well so I'll quote them directly.
Pain goes from being completely dominated by Naruto in his six-tailed form to incapacitating him and forcing him to morph into the eight-tailed variant to counteract the gravitational pull of Chibaku Tensei. While limiting a character's strength based on showings from significantly weaker individuals may not be a decisive argument, it does establish a precedent. Given the lack of feats or statements indicating relativity, Chibaku Tensei is treated as a potent ultimate ability. The six paths variant is even more potent, capturing and nullifying significantly stronger individuals, albeit requiring two participants.

The point that Shadow is bringing up here, is that we have precedence that the Chibaku Tensei jutsu outscales your own physicals. Pain goes from losing to someone to absolutely shutting them down with his CT. Furthermore, in the Boruto anime we see that Fused Momo has to result to a giant dragon to bust out of Sasuke's CT, despite only needing small dragons to beat down on Sasuke. Which is additional proof that the CT and by extension SPCT jutsu are beyond the user's normal physicals.

Conclusion​

SPCT should not scale to physicals, because there is due reason to assume that the power of that jutsu is far beyond everything else in the characters' arsenals. As far as alternative methods of scaling, since we currently base all our scaling off of the SPCT, recently Toneri's moon split got accepted as concretely 5-C, so we can just do that for the time being until Shadow drops their god tier thread.

Agree: Slayer, Damage, Tracer, KT, Mav
Neutral:
Disagree:

Agree fra

 

[mal]

Alright I just rewatched the movie to make sure I wasn't wrong or misinterpreting .

1. You said he he may have been using his own chakra or hamura chakra via the Byakugan and this is wrong. Toneri was basically out of coming after the tenseigan was removed, he could barely move so using his chakra is out of it. Not like he has such power in the first place. For the Byakugan that wasn't what he used it for. He used the power of the Byakugan to revive his golem. When he got the Byakugan he specifically says "puppet rebirth" and brought the golem back. But kurama completely destroyed it. Naruto and hinata then told him to stop that he has lost already. It was at this point he brought out his chakra absorption orb and used it to suck naruto BSM. When the orb sucks chakra we visibly see the chakra as it is drained and at no point did we see a drain from the Byakugan . So not only did he not bring out the orb until he wanted naruto chakra, we never see it suck chakra from any source left asides from naruto.

2. If you look at when toneri is about to activate it, just take a look at the green orb. You would see naruto orange chakra showing glaringly as what is about to detonate off completely. So it was just naruto chakra, and considering the first time toneri used something like this all it did was turn naruto chakra into an explosion I see no reason to think otherwise.

It is for the reason I believe that if a small portion of naruto chakra was going to destroy the earth even though chakra amp is not linear it would still make sense that a fully powered naruto should at least scale to this since it was a small portion of his chakra alone

u need to watch the movie first. Toneri's jutsu absorb Sun Energy to destroy "Sage Of 6Path World".so no one scale to it

 

[karo_senpaii]

u need to watch the movie first. Toneri's jutsu absorb Sun Energy to destroy "Sage Of 6Path World".so no one scale to it

Lol this just flay out wrong. But go on it has passed

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yup Toneri absorbed sun energy after that statement was made so it’s not factorable in to the statement.

 

[Padaruyos]

Sakura nerfed to 6-C

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Sakura nerfed to 6-C

Good.

 

[Padaruyos]

Gaara's sand AP is 88.74 Exatons instead of 177,48 Exatons like it's dura. Shouldn't Gaara's sand AP also scale to 177,48 Exatons since he stopped Momoshiki's movement here? Or is it more of an LS feat than an AP feat?

 

[LordTracer]

Can y’all wait until Arc’s actually done with the New Era characters before you start trying to change it?

 

[Padaruyos]

Oh sorry for that. I'll stop for now

 

[SlendVeny]

Sakura nerfed to 6-C

Kashin Koji

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As per the anime canonicity thread from Wrath, if the fight is in both the manga and anime for a canon arc, we use the manga.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@Arc7Kuroi
Sorry for holding this up. I was busy with the Tsunade thread and IRL stuff.
So, on the whole, great job. I have nothing bad to say here, everything's pretty good. So count this as my approval for the sandbox.
Still, I'd like to voice a few suggestions of mine if that's okay.

At least Island level (Capable of fighting against Base Naruto[1][Statistics Values 1])

At least Island level (Far stronger than his previous Base Form[Statistics Values 9])

This isn't really a disagreement, it's more of an inquiry. Are you not planning on using base Naruto's High 6-A feat for scaling? I'm fine with handling it later if that's more convenient for you, just curious is all. Although, I do think implementing it would be pretty simple.

higher with Kurama Six Paths Sage Mode (Clashes with Dual Rinnegan Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara's Limbo clones[4], and prior to being overpowered, Naruto using his chakra arms was briefly able to clash against Kaguya's Yasogami Kuugeki[Statistics Values 4])

So this isn't actually necessary, but I still think it might have value from an indexing standpoint. Do you think it might be worth adding the fact that Naruto's Kurama Avatar was able to match Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o while holding back to his justification? It doesn't actually change the scaling or the values, but it does showcase that Naruto's slightly stronger than Sasuke at this point in time, which I feel is relevant. But if you think it's superfluous or unnecessary, I understand.

possibly Small Planet level+ with Six Paths Chibaku Tensei (Considering Hagoromo gave Naruto half of his own Six Paths Chibaku Tensei seal, Naruto and Sasuke's Six Paths Chibaku Tensei should potentially be half as strong as Hagoromo's Six Paths Chibaku Tensei[Statistics Values 8])

Personally, I don't fully agree with adding this possibly value to Naruto and Sasuke's SPCT. Just mainly due to the fact that, like, we literally see the SPCT Hagoromo gave them in action, and it has a calc and everything. I also don't believe that Ghost Hagoromo is necessarily as strong as prime Hagoromo for reasons I already talked to you about before in private, but that's besides the point. I think if we want to argue that "narratively it should be the same thing as the original SPCT, except maybe half as strong", then I feel like we should just give it a full on Low 5-B rating. I just don't agree with us adding the feat's objective level of power in the form of a calc derived from the actual feat in action, and then saying "but, oh, maybe it's actually stronger".
Like, idk man, it seems weird to me personally, but if everyone's okay with it...........I guess I can live with it. It doesn't matter much in the end.

The Last | New Era

So, I have a suggestion for when you (or anyone else) eventually apply this revision. I think given how beefy Naruto and Sasuke's justifications are, and rightfully so of course, they should be separated via tabbers like we already do for Nard's profile. This will just make things way more manageable and streamlined, as the profiles would look ridiculously cluttered otherwise.

even higher with Six Path's Susano'o (Would be at least as strong as his teen Six Paths Susano'o[Statistics Values 9]), Moon level+ with Indra's Arrow and Majestic Attire Susano'o (His Indra's Arrow would be at least as strong as his teen self

You already know how I feel about this. I just don't think Post-Shippuden Sasuke should have the Bijuu Susano'o included in his justification.
To me, personally, it just feels like a useless addition as it's a move that Sasuke simply would never be able to pull off, at least not in character. He'd have to go capture the Bijuu, place them in CTs, and then siphon their chakra. It's something he could do, but it's just never going to happen. Like, it's not just an out of character move that can technically be performed, such as Naruto's Asura Avatar or Boil Release for example. It's more of a move that simply can't be pulled out of the bag without extensive and out-of-character prep time.
Also in Boruto, Naruto and Sasuke's individual full power is low-key acknowledged to be the PS and KM, so make of that what you will.
This is another thing that I can live with if I'm outvoted, but I just don't agree with it, perosnally. Feels like pointless fluff to an already super beefy profile.

Dura: Moon level (Capable of withstanding the force of his own strikes[Statistics Values 3])

So Madara's honestly, fine as is. But I think his justifications could maybe be fleshed out a bit? Again, nothing that'd change the values, but just stuff that'd flesh out the scaling between people. For example, I think it can be added that he survived a Lava Rasenshuriken while still recovering from his injuries in his first key. He also did survive getting hit with Gear 5 haha get it? Sekizo and being sent through his TSO shield IIRC, but he was hurt by it ofc. He also took a Rasengan/Chidori combo from NaruSasu, and stopped Nard's TSO rod with his Limbo. Pretty much all of these attacks hurt Madara to varying degrees, but I feel like they're good for showcasing how tanky he actually is, as well as how these characters relate to each other and to some of their Ninjutsu, scaling wise.

SS: Moon level (Comparable to his Attack Potency)

Maybe you could add that his Limbo Clone made SPSM Naruto bleed.

Oh, and, this is unrelated to his SS, but how do you feel about him getting a "higher with Light Fang"? LF sliced right through Naruto's TSO, which could somewhat bruise Madara physically, and previously withstood his lightning jutsu. It was also implicitly implied that it would've sliced through Naruto had it hit him. Idk, it just gives me "special attack" vibes is all lol.

Planet level with Infinite Tsukuyomi[Statistics Values 2]

I'm a bit confused by this bit here. What exactly do you mean by saying "with Infinite Tsukuyomi"? Is this supposed to signify that all of her AP-related moves are at this level when she's empowered by IT chakra? Because, honestly, I'm not sure I agree with that.

I feel like we have no concrete proof that she can match that output with her other Jutsu, because not all Jutsu are the same. Some are just inherently more powerful than others, and naturally take far more chakra than others as a baseline. They have different chakra requirements and power levels.

For instance, this is the main reason we have separate ratings for certain techniques, and don't just generalize everything as "X physically, Y with Ninjutsu". People can have "X physically, Y with BIG BALL, Z with BIGGER BALL", etc.

Because Jutsu greatly vary in output and chakra requirements, so I feel like since this calc quantifies how much she puts into the ETSB specifically, we can't really say with certainty that she can output the same level of power with other Jutsu. Of course, if you have an argument for why this should be the case for Kaguya specifically, I'm more than willing to be swayed on this.

But for now, I believe her AP section should look something like this:

Moon level (Sasuke around the time of the events from The Last views the idea of someone threatening Kaguya with skepticism, and even as an adult finds her power formidable[1][2], implying that Kaguya's strength is comparable to these older versions of Sasuke[Statistics Values 1]), higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi ([Insert Black Zetsu stating that she's exponentially stronger, yadayadayada), Planet level with Expansive Truth Seeking Ball [Insert calc][Statistics Values 2]

As for her durability section, I think it might be cool to also add that she casually stopped Boil Release/Kurama chakra amped Naruto with her bare hands, and matched his attacks with her hair and leg. I think it's useful because it shows direct physical comparability to her Vacuum Fist, at least in terms of durability. Again, nothing that'd change anything [especially since you already added the Super Bijuu RS feat], just something that I feel has its uses and fleshes out her justification a little bit.


That's about it, for now. Like I said, all of it is pretty minor, mostly inconsequential things. I'll refrain from commenting on the New Era stuff until you say that it's ready for evaluation. But, yeah, great work overall.

 

[Damage3245]

possibly Small Planet level+ with Six Paths Chibaku Tensei (Considering Hagoromo gave Naruto half of his own Six Paths Chibaku Tensei seal, Naruto and Sasuke's Six Paths Chibaku Tensei should potentially be half as strong as Hagoromo's Six Paths Chibaku Tensei[Statistics Values 8])

I overlooked this bit from the sandbox.

I think we should just have Moon level for Naruto and Sasuke's SPCT, not possibly Small Planet level+.

You already know how I feel about this. I just don't think Post-Shippuden Sasuke should have the Bijuu Susano'o included in his justification.
To me, personally, it just feels like a useless addition as it's a move that Sasuke simply would never be able to pull off, at least not in character. He'd have to go capture the Bijuu, place them in CTs, and then siphon their chakra. It's something he could do, but it's just never going to happen. Like, it's not just an out of character move that can technically be performed, such as Naruto's Asura Avatar or Boil Release for example. It's more of a move that simply can't be pulled out of the bag without extensive and out-of-character prep time.

I agree with removing that part from Sasuke.

 

[Nierre]

Completely agree with Damage and Slayer with removing the Bijuu Susanoo for Post Shippuden Sasuke and removing possibly Low 5-B+ with SPCT as well.

 

[Godernet]

Slayer FRA(mostly)

removing the Six Paths Susanoo from Post Shippuden is fine since it makes no sense in character anyway.

neutral on the possibly L5B for CT, since there really isn't anything that would definitively put Alive Hags (Pre Juubi Jin) above Ghost Hags and the narrative of Naruto and Sasuke using the entirety of Hag's chakra to pull this off holds as much weight if not more than a calc for Nard and Sauces specific instance at least imo (it's not like we expect Kishi and the animators to draw the two CTs exactly comparatively proportionate in size and speed to how much chakra they took in the series.)

tbh, I can see why the possibly makes some sense, but without it, I would choose the solid L5B end personally unless there was some proof Ghost Hags was weaker than he was in the past.

also

Planet level with Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball [Insert calc][Statistics Values 2]

wouldn't this be inaccurate? Since the calc isn't of ETSO in its entirety, but how much chakra Kaguya should be putting into it per second. if Arc doesn't continue to argue it should scale to normal ninjutsu then wouldn't ETSO look something like?


at least Planet level, likely Star level over time with Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball,

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This isn't really a disagreement, it's more of an inquiry. Are you not planning on using base Naruto's High 6-A feat for scaling? I'm fine with handling it later if that's more convenient for you, just curious is all. Although, I do think implementing it would be pretty simple.

Honestly, I think I'll just do it later so the calc can get the attention it deserves.

So this isn't actually necessary, but I still think it might have value from an indexing standpoint. Do you think it might be worth adding the fact that Naruto's Kurama Avatar was able to match Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o while holding back to his justification? It doesn't actually change the scaling or the values, but it does showcase that Naruto's slightly stronger than Sasuke at this point in time, which I feel is relevant. But if you think it's superfluous or unnecessary, I understand.

I can add it if other people deem it necessary, since it isn't where his primary scaling comes from I didn't add it to avoid over cluttering.

Personally, I don't fully agree with adding this possibly value to Naruto and Sasuke's SPCT. Just mainly due to the fact that, like, we literally see the SPCT Hagoromo gave them in action, and it has a calc and everything. I also don't believe that Ghost Hagoromo is necessarily as strong as prime Hagoromo for reasons I already talked to you about before in private, but that's besides the point. I think if we want to argue that "narratively it should be the same thing as the original SPCT, except maybe half as strong", then I feel like we should just give it a full on Low 5-B rating. I just don't agree with us adding the feat's objective level of power in the form of a calc derived from the actual feat in action, and then saying "but, oh, maybe it's actually stronger".
Like, idk man, it seems weird to me personally, but if everyone's okay with it...........I guess I can live with it. It doesn't matter much in the end.

Idrc either personally, I know a handful of people brought that up, the logic imo makes sense, but if majority don't want it that's cool.

So, I have a suggestion for when you (or anyone else) eventually apply this revision. I think given how beefy Naruto and Sasuke's justifications are, and rightfully so of course, they should be separated via tabbers like we already do for Nard's profile. This will just make things way more manageable and streamlined, as the profiles would look ridiculously cluttered otherwise.

You already know how I feel about this. I just don't think Post-Shippuden Sasuke should have the Bijuu Susano'o included in his justification.
To me, personally, it just feels like a useless addition as it's a move that Sasuke simply would never be able to pull off, at least not in character. He'd have to go capture the Bijuu, place them in CTs, and then siphon their chakra. It's something he could do, but it's just never going to happen. Like, it's not just an out of character move that can technically be performed, such as Naruto's Asura Avatar or Boil Release for example. It's more of a move that simply can't be pulled out of the bag without extensive and out-of-character prep time.
Also in Boruto, Naruto and Sasuke's individual full power is low-key acknowledged to be the PS and KM, so make of that what you will.
This is another thing that I can live with if I'm outvoted, but I just don't agree with it, perosnally. Feels like pointless fluff to an already super beefy profile.

Regardless, prior to Kurama's death, the 9 Bijuu exist in the world, meaning Sasuke technically has access to the form even if it's not in character. It is an undeniable fact that pre-Kurama death, Sasuke could grab the 9 Bijuu and enter the form (Naruto willing). This being out of character in verse is not justification to not index it, in fact we have a section on the profile to handle this, it's called weaknesses. Furthermore, PS being acknowledged as his "peak" is contextualized by 1) his individual peak cuz MA > PS and 2) because he wouldn't steal Kurama in character.

So Madara's honestly, fine as is. But I think his justifications could maybe be fleshed out a bit? Again, nothing that'd change the values, but just stuff that'd flesh out the scaling between people. For example, I think it can be added that he survived a Lava Rasenshuriken while still recovering from his injuries in his first key. He also did survive getting hit with Gear 5 haha get it? Sekizo and being sent through his TSO shield IIRC, but he was hurt by it ofc. He also took a Rasengan/Chidori combo from NaruSasu, and stopped Nard's TSO rod with his Limbo. Pretty much all of these attacks hurt Madara to varying degrees, but I feel like they're good for showcasing how tanky he actually is, as well as how these characters relate to each other and to some of their Ninjutsu, scaling wise.

Surviving hits that deal significant damage isn't a durability feat, it's endurance. Madara does not scale to attacks that wreck his ****. I can add the Rasengan Chidori stuff tho for sure.

I'm a bit confused by this bit here. What exactly do you mean by saying "with Infinite Tsukuyomi"? Is this supposed to signify that all of her AP-related moves are at this level when she's empowered by IT chakra? Because, honestly, I'm not sure I agree with that.

I feel like we have no concrete proof that she can match that output with her other Jutsu, because not all Jutsu are the same. Some are just inherently more powerful than others, and naturally take far more chakra than others as a baseline. They have different chakra requirements and power levels.

For instance, this is the main reason we have separate ratings for certain techniques, and don't just generalize everything as "X physically, Y with Ninjutsu". People can have "X physically, Y with BIG BALL, Z with BIGGER BALL", etc.

Because Jutsu greatly vary in output and chakra requirements, so I feel like since this calc quantifies how much she puts into the ETSB specifically, we can't really say with certainty that she can output the same level of power with other Jutsu. Of course, if you have an argument for why this should be the case for Kaguya specifically, I'm more than willing to be swayed on this.

But for now, I believe her AP section should look something like this:

I'm go with Net's suggestion. Since over time the ETSO is accepted to reach Star level.

As for her durability section, I think it might be cool to also add that she casually stopped Boil Release/Kurama chakra amped Naruto with her bare hands, and matched his attacks with her hair and leg. I think it's useful because it shows direct physical comparability to her Vacuum Fist, at least in terms of durability. Again, nothing that'd change anything [especially since you already added the Super Bijuu RS feat], just something that I feel has its uses and fleshes out her justification a little bit.

That's valid.

 

[Damage3245]

Regardless, prior to Kurama's death, the 9 Bijuu exist in the world, meaning Sasuke technically has access to the form even if it's not in character. It is an undeniable fact that pre-Kurama death, Sasuke could grab the 9 Bijuu and enter the form (Naruto willing). This being out of character in verse is not justification to not index it, in fact we have a section on the profile to handle this, it's called weaknesses. Furthermore, PS being acknowledged as his "peak" is contextualized by 1) his individual peak cuz MA > PS and 2) because he wouldn't steal Kurama in character.

I don't agree with this logic.

By the same notion of being an "undeniable fact", it is an undeniable fact that it is possible for any of the other Naruto characters to learn Sage Mode if they put their minds to it and and it is possible that they'd have the natural capability to be compatible with it, so it could be argued that they could get a "possibly higher" rating with Sage Mode on their profiles.

But I don't think it'd be worthwhile to add that for them, or to add the Bijuu Susano'o to New Era Sauske either.

Also, not all 9 Biju currently exist in the world either as Eight-Tails is in Killer B and Kurama is dead.

 

[Nierre]

I don't agree with that logic either.
I still don't see the point of indexing something he'd never use and more importantly never USED in this key, for very obvious in-lore, in-character reasons.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't agree with this logic.

By the same notion of being an "undeniable fact", it is an undeniable fact that it is possible for any of the other Naruto characters to learn Sage Mode if they put their minds to it and and it is possible that they'd have the natural capability to be compatible with it, so it could be argued that they could get a "possibly higher" rating with Sage Mode on their profiles.

But I don't think it'd be worthwhile to add that for them, or to add the Bijuu Susano'o to New Era Sauske either.

Also, not all 9 Biju currently exist in the world either as Eight-Tails is in Killer B and Kurama is dead.

False equivalence. In Sasuke's scenario we know without a shadow of a doubt, Sasuke can absorb Bijuu chakra to create this Susano'o. The only missing link of the puzzle is having the Bijuu. It's a matter of equipment not capability. Meanwhile, not every Shinobi has portrayed the eptitude to use Sage Mode, we even have precedence that not everyone can utilize a perfect Sage Mode (Jiraiya), indicating that a level of skill and talent is required. These two situations aren't comparable in the slightest. The only thing preventing Sasuke from using the SP Susano'o is that he's a good guy and won't rip out Bee and Naruto's Bijuu. However, just like we can make OoC matchups (bloodlusted, etc), we can make a match up with Adult Sasuke with the 9 Bijuu vs whoever, in which case Sasuke would be able to utilize the technique, thus it is indexed. In the weaknesses section you'd say "Sasuke does not have the 9 Bijuu normally, thus he cannot use the technique unless specified he has access to the 9 Bijuu". We don't just ignore it because.

 

[Damage3245]

False equivalence. In Sasuke's scenario we know without a shadow of a doubt, Sasuke can absorb Bijuu chakra to create this Susano'o. The only missing link of the puzzle is having the Bijuu. It's a matter of equipment not capability. Meanwhile, not every Shinobi has portrayed the eptitude to use Sage Mode, we even have precedence that not everyone can utilize a perfect Sage Mode (Jiraiya), indicating that a level of skill and talent is required. These two situations aren't comparable in the slightest. The only thing preventing Sasuke from using the SP Susano'o is that he's a good guy and won't rip out Bee and Naruto's Bijuu. However, just like we can make OoC matchups (bloodlusted, etc), we can make a match up with Adult Sasuke with the 9 Bijuu vs whoever, in which case Sasuke would be able to utilize the technique, thus it is indexed. In the weaknesses section you'd say "Sasuke does not have the 9 Bijuu normally, thus he cannot use the technique unless specified he has access to the 9 Bijuu". We don't just ignore it because.

I think we should ignore it.

In the example I provided, the only thing stopping characters from getting "possibly higher with Sage Mode" is prep time since they'd need to train for it. And we can't say that any particular characters definitely can't use Sage Mode if they trained for it.

Likewise while it is possible that Sauske could go around, yanking all the Bijuu, and theoretically kill Naruto and Killer B for their Bijuu, I don't think it is worth indexing that scenario.

It's like saying Kakashi could get Sasuke's Sharingan implanted into him with prep time (and there is precedent with him having someone else's Sharingan put into him), so we should give him Sasuke's Sharingan abilities as a possibly on his profile.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think we should ignore it.

In the example I provided, the only thing stopping characters from getting "possibly higher with Sage Mode" is prep time since they'd need to train for it. And we can't say that any particular characters definitely can't use Sage Mode if they trained for it.

Likewise while it is possible that Sauske could go around, yanking all the Bijuu, and theoretically kill Naruto and Killer B for their Bijuu, I don't think it is worth indexing that scenario.

It's like saying Kakashi could get Sasuke's Sharingan implanted into him with prep time (and there is precedent with him having someone else's Sharingan put into him), so we should give him Sasuke's Sharingan abilities as a possibly on his profile.

No it isn't damage. We don't know if everyone has the talent for Sage Mode. We do know that Sasuke can absorb Bijuu chakra to enter SP Susano'o. Again you're bringing up examples of stuff that has never happened in the manga whatsoever, so there's no precedence for your examples. Meanwhile this is just something Sasuke has shown the capability of doing. The examples you bring forth aren't comparable.

 

[Damage3245]

No it isn't damage. We don't know if everyone has the talent for Sage Mode. We do know that Sasuke can absorb Bijuu chakra to enter SP Susano'o. Again you're bringing up examples of stuff that has never happened in the manga whatsoever, so there's no precedence for your examples. Meanwhile this is just something Sasuke has shown the capability of doing. The examples you bring forth aren't comparable.

My point is that just because there is a capability doesn't mean there is a need to index it. You can't deny that it is possible that the other characters are capable of what I've mentioned.

Whether a character is definitely capable or something or possibly capable of something, either way doesn't necessarily mean it has to be indexed.

I do not agree with listing Six Path's Susano'o or Indra's Arrow on his New Era key. If he uses it any time in future Boruto chapters, then I will be fully in favor of it.

We'll probably just go in circles on this point so if you insist on keeping it then ask for more staff members to evaluate it.

If you still insist my other examples are flawed; then how about this: It's like saying "With enough prep time, any strong character can become a Jinchuriki even if it'd be out of character for them to round up a Bijuu and get it implanted into themselves. So we should list the Bijuu's abilities on their profile with prep time."

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

My point is that just because there is a capability doesn't mean there is a need to index it. You can't deny that it is possible that the other characters are capable of what I've mentioned.

Whether a character is definitely capable or something or possibly capable of something, either way doesn't necessarily mean it has to be indexed.

I do not agree with listing Six Path's Susano'o or Indra's Arrow on his New Era key. If he uses it any time in future Boruto chapters, then I will be fully in favor of it.

We'll probably just go in circles on this point so if you insist on keeping it then ask for more staff members to evaluate it.

The difference here is that there is a preponderance of evidence for Sasuke. We do not hand out "possibly ratings" for potentials that don't have an substantiation. Going by our definition of the usage of possibly and likely ratings, you need due evidence that such a thing is possible or likely, not vague potentials of random stuff.

 

[Godernet]

tbf a shinobi going out and learning a technique they never have before is definitely not the same as a shinobi being given the tools to use a technique they've already demonstrated all the ability and knowledge to be capable;e of using again if put in the same circumstance.

the only real argument is that it doesn't make narrative sense, even if we were to put The Last or even New Era Sasuke in a situation where he would fight alongside all of the Bijuu against a common enemy because of his fight with Naruto and his new understanding of the necessity of bonds he wouldn't in character use the Bijuu as pawns for their chakra the same way Final Valley Sasuke might.

The most worth you'll see from keeping it is if people wanna add the bijuu as optional equipment for blood lusted vs battles with New Era Sauce. so it should be fine from that angle.

It's not like Sauce can't use it, he just most likely wouldn't.

 

[Fvbuki_Cheese]

Toneri isn’t moving the moon. His eye is moving the moon. He has no reason to scale to the yield of his eyes’s max capabilities

Just like how Obito ain’t craft the Kamui dimension, his eye did, and he doesn’t scale to the full capabilities of his eye, Toneri wouldn’t scale

Your statement is wrong, toneri still has a contribution in moving the moon. basically the Tenseigan Energy Vessel which provides power to the puppet soldiers and moves the moon, but the Tenseigan energy vessel has been destroyed by Naruto & Hinata so that the movement of the moon to earth and the puppet soldiers has stopped for a moment. However, the moon continues to move again because Toneri uses his dojutsu (tenseigan). With this dojutsu, he can control the forces of attraction and repulsion which are able to lift Moon rocks to be used as projectiles and pull the Moon itself towards Earth without using the Tenseigan Energy Vessel.



and the kamui case that you describe to support your statement is less relevant, because both cases have striking differences. Firstly, it is true that Obito has never been confirmed that he created the Kamui dimension, secondly this also applies to his eyes because it has also not been confirmed validly that he created that dimension. So this Kamui case is still transparent due to lack of information. Meanwhile Toneri dojutsu can be proven empirically that Toneri is able to control it and make the moon that was previously stopped move again.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Spoiler: Shadow Wizard Money Gang

 

[Fvbuki_Cheese]

Databook says Kamui creates it.

Ppl have no reason to scale to their eyes

oh yeah, show it. Even if it is true that the databook confirms that the eye creates the Kamui dimension, it still cannot be equated with Toneri's case. So the power of dojutsu (Tenseigan) can still be scaled to Toneri

 

[Nierre]

KT hasn't talked in this thread in like 2 weeks.

Leave the man alone

 

[Fvbuki_Cheese]

KT hasn't talked in this thread in like 2 weeks.

Leave the man alone

Oh sorry, I'm also really late joining the discussion on this topic. I haven't even read the whole discussion yet I just got to page 4