"Skipping isn't Stopping" Hit Time skip revision

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I support option 4

 

[RedReaper]

no, Vados straight says that it DOESN'T do Time Stop

This is directly contradicted by the other scene. Just because Vados is saying something does not disprove the instances in which the opposite is true.

prove this?

Hit's Time Powers, all of them, is usually referred to under the name of Time Skip, despite his long list of various time based powers. Such as in the ToP, or even Vados' explanation. "It's called time skipping because..." Explains how he makes a dimension completely derivative of Time Skip, not actually a wholly same thing. She is literally saying his power is called Time Skip due to a move that is literally not Time Skip (as the Dimension is only created AFTER Time Skip made collected from his power.)

prove this?

Time Cage is literally him using all his accumuiated time and specifically only using it on a singular target to slow them down relative to reality. It is literally him using the "Dimension Power" of Time Skip on a SINGLE person. Furthermore, I feel like this is being obstinate? They all have the same visual flair, his powers are all very clearly supposed to be one overall connected ability, he's specifically only ever referred to be using Time Skipping/Stopping despite having various secondary powers, etc.

..........prove the variations in the first place? prove that they are not different techniques even with Different names?

Again. Feel like this is being very clearly ignoring the actual on screen intention in favor of semantics to explain an inconsistency.

 

[omegabronic]

This is directly contradicted by the other scene. Just because Vados is saying something does not disprove the instances in which the opposite is true.

it.....it isn't tho? the one example in the U6 Arc i explained why it wouldn't be a problem, and the Gangster mob scene has no mentioning that it is the Time Skip

Hit's Time Powers, all of them, is usually referred to under the name of Time Skip, despite his long list of various time based powers. Such as in the ToP, or even Vados' explanation.

.....prove this? like, show me a statement that his Time Stopping power is referred to as Time Skip, or any of his other time abilities for that matter

"It's called time skipping because..." Explains how he makes a dimension completely derivative of Time Skip, not actually a wholly same thing. She is literally saying his power is called Time Skip due to a move that is literally not Time Skip (as the Dimension is only created AFTER Time Skip made collected from his power.)

no, one move is only possible due to the Time Skip, yes, but she is not saying that said move IS the Time Skip, only that it works in conjunction with the Time Skip

Time Cage is literally him using all his accumuiated time and specifically only using it on a singular target to slow them down relative to reality.

yes, aka him using the time he has accumulated from his Time Skip into another separated technique

It is literally him using the "Dimension Power" of Time Skip on a SINGLE person.

the "dimension power" is not the Time Skip, it is a separated ability which is supported by the Time Skip

They all have the same visual flair, his powers are all very clearly supposed to be one overall connected ability

so? of course they are going to use the specific visual of Hit to symbolize his abilities, also the scene where he time stops is of different appearance from his Time Skip, one is Green, the other is Red, and when he drags the Mob Boss with him in the time stop it turns White, so even with "visual flair" they are still different

he's specifically only ever referred to be using Time Skipping/Stopping despite having various secondary powers, etc.

proof of this? the time stop is never said to be the time skip at all for example

Again. Feel like this is being very clearly ignoring the actual on screen intention in favor of semantics to explain an inconsistency.

no, neither you or i can proof the visual intentions the authors wanted to show, we aren't them to know, but we know for a fact what is said in the show, that being that Time Skip doesn't stop time, that with none of the other abilities being called Time Skip can make us conclude that, at the very least, Time Skip doesn't stop time and another explanation for the visuals has to be used, be it Hit's visual motif or anything else

 

[omegabronic]

with DDM's vote one option finally reached the 3 votes necessary to pass, iirc tommorow is when 48hrs from the thread's creation is going to pass, so i will wait until then to apply this thread

Edit: Will reach grace in about 5 hours

 

[RedReaper]

The idea that stretching out the duration of the time skip completely thwarts any power-up his opponent has makes no sense. Tell me how Goku can break through time skip at 0.1 seconds but not half a second. That means he has 4 additional time frames he's shown to operate within stacked onto what he already beat.

This is definitely me being semantic, but Goku only ever surpasses .5s, and is only momentarily caught because Hit extended TS by a minor enough amount to escape and then again to lay a dozen blows into Goku. We don't actually hear any time length increasing for this. In fact, rewatching the episode (40) due to seeing this in the DBS Discussion thread makes me think what should be Time Skip in U6vU7, and that Goku's fight GAVE him Time Stop, because a new Time Stopping affect occurs as Hit describes this phenomenon to evade Goku.

Saying increasing his strength allows him to lengthen his time skip directly proves my point that his ability is based on ki and not manipulation of the temporal dimension itself. That's why I compared his ability to Whis, who manipulates time outside of a ki technique. If it isn't based on ki, what proof do you have that shows otherwise?

Mm. That's why I said "not the same way." Because Hit's Temporal ability is never conflated with Ki. You could maybe argue this for the Manga, but definitely not the Anime. That said, this is because, upon reviewing the episodes on Aniwave, (in this case, 39), I realized something. It is explicitly stated that he's improving Time Skip without improving power. So I misspoke here entirely.

 

[Golden_Void]

This is definitely me being semantic, but Goku only ever surpasses .5s, and is only momentarily caught because Hit extended TS by a minor enough amount to escape and then again to lay a dozen blows into Goku. We don't actually hear any time length increasing for this. In fact, rewatching the episode (40) due to seeing this in the DBS Discussion thread makes me think what should be Time Skip in U6vU7, and that Goku's fight GAVE him Time Stop, because a new Time Stopping affect occurs as Hit describes this phenomenon to evade Goku.

There's no logical conclusion in lengthening the amount of time someone has to react, when they can react in a fraction of the time you can now manipulate. Granted, that is what the show decided to run with. Anything else is unconfirmed. As stated earlier, if Goku broke through time skip once, literally any other use of it would've been useless.

Mm. That's why I said "not the same way." Because Hit's Temporal ability is never conflated with Ki. You could maybe argue this for the Manga, but definitely not the Anime. That said, this is because, upon reviewing the episodes on Aniwave, (in this case, 39), I realized something. It is explicitly stated that he's improving Time Skip without improving power. So I misspoke here entirely.

He just states he can't power up by transforming, and he has to level up his ability by improving his technique. That does not explicitly deny the use of ki. Hit also charges up his ki prior to each time his technique improves. He claims its skill, but skill can only take you so far. He said he wouldn't last long against SSB Goku if the fight stayed at that intensity. Then Blue KK was shown to be FTE from hit's perspective. But he could clearly see and fight KKx10 Goku despite that (joke #1) and evolved further past that while stiff-arming a kamehameha which is its own amplifier (joke #2.) There's a very clear power increase with each improvement.

 

[Jaakor48]

not time stop, Vados explicitly says that it doesn't do that

Time skip isn't the same as time stop, hits evolution of the normal skipping allowed him freeze Goku in time, I am not sure why this is so hard, when we are literally shown this.

Mind you, vados was explaining all his abilities, it's all under timeskip, those other names (Tides of time, tine release all come from games), all his abilities are called Time Skip, we know he can stop time, but that's not thr main function of hid ability, it's that simple

 

[omegabronic]

Time skip isn't the same as time stop, hits evolution of the normal skipping allowed him freeze Goku in time, I am not sure why this is so hard, when we are literally shown this.

the said "evolution" that Hit did was always, exclusively, said to be the make the length of his Time Skip be longer, never is it ever hinted that it gives the Skip any additional effects, specially when Hit doesn't comment anything different from that Skip from the other ones

Mind you, vados was explaining all his abilities, it's all under timeskip, those other names (Tides of time, tine release all come from games), all his abilities are called Time Skip, we know he can stop time, but that's not thr main function of hid ability, it's that simple

prove this, show any proof that the numerous other abilities with different names are the same one from 1 specific ability he has, nothing suggests this at all and Vados saying that the Time Skip does Stop Time is a contradiction of that

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree Option 4 or 5, on second thought.

 

[RedReaper]

There's no logical conclusion in lengthening the amount of time someone has to react, when they can react in a fraction of the time you can now manipulate. Granted, that is what the show decided to run with. Anything else is unconfirmed. As stated earlier, if Goku broke through time skip once, literally any other use of it would've been useless.

Which is what is described in Goku V Hit 2.

He just states he can't power up by transforming, and he has to level up his ability by improving his technique. That does not explicitly deny the use of ki. Hit also charges up his ki prior to each time his technique improves. He claims its skill, but skill can only take you so far. He said he wouldn't last long against SSB Goku if the fight stayed at that intensity. Then Blue KK was shown to be FTE from hit's perspective. But he could clearly see and fight KKx10 Goku despite that (joke #1) and evolved further past that while stiff-arming a kamehameha which is its own amplifier (joke #2.) There's a very clear power increase with each improvement.

1) When asked for clarification, Piccolo describes, in shock, that “He’s able to evolve his technique without increasing power.” Which verifies the claim. That said, it’s undeniable Hit is seemingly progressing in power. However, given that getting bopped ONCE by an EXTREMELY drained KKx10 SSB Goku after he evolved (ie. A moment where he allegedly should’ve evolved in power) to catch Goku made Hit fall down and pant in exhaustion—In direct mirror to Goku being hit dozens of times by this newly Evolved Hit, his durability didn’t seem to increase whatsoever (and as Durability and Strength are linked, that implies his strength didn’t either.) Meaning there is some validity to this.

Edit: Also, if Goku taking damage is the main factor, it’s established early into the fight that Goku’s durability doesn’t matter because he works on Kenshiro logic. No matter how tough you are, your vital points are being hit, and that will affect, as well as kill his target. The only real problem is his speed, but that’s completely mitigated by Time Skip. Which we see in his initial clash with SSB Goku, he uses for every attack. (Meaning he’s always hitting “instantly.”)

2) His powering up is explicitly noted to do nothing. Beerus says this, Champa does, and so does Goku. In fact, Vados comments that he likely did it for showmanship (copying Goku’s flashy ways. This makes sense because the victory of this arc is based on changing/altering Hit’s perspective on life, so gradually influencing him in smaller ways before the larger end of fight change. This same “acting” principle is something we see applied to A17 later, where he “role plays” to fit his opponent’s weird gimmick to have more fun, such as his battle against Kakunsa.) So him powering up isn’t evidence of anything. Also, he only does the power up 1 time. Every other instance is simply him revealing TS is enhanced after utterly thrashing Goku briefly.

 

[Stefano4444]

this is the safest option for now, if there is a situation that supports this in the future, then this issue can be discussed again.

Agree.

Its a valid Immeasurable Speed feat but for now better keep it as an outlier, at least for now.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Can't even go with a "Possibly" Immeasurable speed as the feat isn't consistent despite it being arguably valid.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

My vote means little but I agree with option 2. I dont see how this is analytical prediction in my opinion.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Time travel would more likely suit the current agenda so option 3 is more agreeable than the others.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Agree.

Its a valid Immeasurable Speed feat but for now better keep it as an outlier, at least for now.

It's not. I've outlined the reason afterwards.

Can't even go with a "Possibly" Immeasurable speed as the feat isn't consistent despite it being arguably valid.

Not how the "possibly" rating work.
"Possibly" is when a piece of evidence might be interpreted a certain way, and that interpretation is also consistent and possible for the series. Outliers can't be a possible rating.
Also everyone stronger than Goku would get this rating as well.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well the 48 hours have passed and my suggestion has gotten more than enough support to pass

 

[omegabronic]

Well the 48 hours have passed and my suggestion has gotten more than enough support to pass

Yep, when i come back home i will begin editing the profiles

 

[RedReaper]

it.....it isn't tho? the one example in the U6 Arc i explained why it wouldn't be a problem, and the Gangster mob scene has no mentioning that it is the Time Skip


.....prove this? like, show me a statement that his Time Stopping power is referred to as Time Skip, or any of his other time abilities for that matter


no, one move is only possible due to the Time Skip, yes, but she is not saying that said move IS the Time Skip, only that it works in conjunction with the Time Skip

She literally says the move is called "Time Skip" because of this. They share naming conventions. Also, at least on the TL for Aniwave, Vados implies this is all Time Skip.

"This fight's gone on for quite a while, hasn't it? Hit's going all out and still hasn't finished Goku!"

"In a way, both men are having a difficult time of it."

"You understand Hit's Techniques, don't you? Why isn't Goku able to make contact?"

"My Lord Champa. Don't you remember Hit's Time Skipping move from their first battle?"

"Oh yes, where he can stop time."

"You're in the right ballpark, but he doesn't actually stop it. To be exact, he can 'skip' forward in time."

"And why's that mean he can't be touched?" (Time Skip)

"It's complicated, sir. But basically, Hit can store up all the time he skips over." (Time Skip)

"Hold on, stores it how?" (Storing of Time Skip)

"In a temporary space time parallel to ours. You might think of it as a pocket dimension. A place he can move through without matter here interacting with him. It's because using Hit's this ability that Goku can see him, but can't touch him." (Where Time Skip is Stored.)

Implying that this whole interaction is just a logical extension/variation of Time Skip.

yes, aka him using the time he has accumulated from his Time Skip into another separated technique

It's not separate. As stated by Vados, they are connected.

the "dimension power" is not the Time Skip, it is a separated ability which is supported by the Time Skip

Read above.

so? of course they are going to use the specific visual of Hit to symbolize his abilities, also the scene where he time stops is of different appearance from his Time Skip, one is Green, the other is Red, and when he drags the Mob Boss with him in the time stop it turns White, so even with "visual flair" they are still different

So you agree they use the visual flair of Time Skip to inform the abilities are connected because of Hit's nature...but you also don't believe they're at all interrelated? This makes no sense. And yes, the coloration is different, but they're also straight up different applications of the same root ability. (Skipping Time, Storing Skipped Time, bringing someone into his Dimension, etc.)

proof of this? the time stop is never said to be the time skip at all for example

When he freezes Goku in time in U6VU7, specifically the KK Punch that would've ended the fight, he calls it Time Skip.

no, neither you or i can proof the visual intentions the authors wanted to show, we aren't them to know, but we know for a fact what is said in the show, that being that Time Skip doesn't stop time, that with none of the other abilities being called Time Skip can make us conclude that, at the very least, Time Skip doesn't stop time and another explanation for the visuals has to be used, be it Hit's visual motif or anything else

We literally see him stop Goku in Time and call it Time Skip.

 

[Golden_Void]

Which is what is described in Goku V Hit 2.

The rematch doesn't even matter when we see time skip still work within the same fight. Let alone Jiren who was leaps and bounds ahead of Goku being affected by it.

1) When asked for clarification, Piccolo describes, in shock, that “He’s able to evolve his technique without increasing power.” Which verifies the claim. That said, it’s undeniable Hit is seemingly progressing in power. However, given that getting bopped ONCE by an EXTREMELY drained KKx10 SSB Goku after he evolved (ie. A moment where he allegedly should’ve evolved in power) to catch Goku made Hit fall down and pant in exhaustion—In direct mirror to Goku being hit dozens of times by this newly Evolved Hit, his durability didn’t seem to increase whatsoever (and as Durability and Strength are linked, that implies his strength didn’t either.) Meaning there is some validity to this.

Goku cratered Hit into the stage on multiple occasions as a regular blue. Hit being exhausted after one punch happens after KKx10 Goku gives him a full 16-piece combo followed by a KHH. As stated before, regular kaioken was FTE to Hit and twice as strong as the normal Blue Hit stated he wouldn't last much longer against. His durability absolutely increased.

2) His powering up is explicitly noted to do nothing. Beerus says this, Champa does, and so does Goku. In fact, Vados comments that he likely did it for showmanship (copying Goku’s flashy ways. This makes sense because the victory of this arc is based on changing/altering Hit’s perspective on life, so gradually influencing him in smaller ways before the larger end of fight change. This same “acting” principle is something we see applied to A17 later, where he “role plays” to fit his opponent’s weird gimmick to have more fun, such as his battle against Kakunsa.) So him powering up isn’t evidence of anything. Also, he only does the power up 1 time. Every other instance is simply him revealing TS is enhanced after utterly thrashing Goku briefly.

Powering up is stated to do nothing for his damage output, which is why Goku was in disbelief once Hit was on the offensive. That Hit why he refers to transformations as "cutting corners." He basically says he only gets stronger through training, and as he trains (fights) with Goku, his time skip and ability to stay in the fight strengthen.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I've always felt it was a power thing in the anime when Goku, upon powering up says "THE LEVEL I'M AT NOW is beyond your time skip" and when Hit improves, he says "The level of my Time Skip is beyond you"

 

[RedReaper]

The rematch doesn't even matter when we see time skip still work within the same fight. Let alone Jiren who was leaps and bounds ahead of Goku being affected by it.

He doesn’t catch Goku in it during the Rematch. Also, Jiren got by Time Cage, so I dunno what you’re talking about.

Goku cratered Hit into the stage on multiple occasions as a regular blue. Hit being exhausted after one punch happens after KKx10 Goku gives him a full 16-piece combo followed by a KHH. As stated before, regular kaioken was FTE to Hit and twice as strong as the normal Blue Hit stated he wouldn't last much longer against. His durability absolutely increased.

Yeah, but if Hit had actually increased the punch wouldn’t have mattered. Also, we’re told Hit was suppressing himself for the Tournament, so it’s not contradictory.

Powering up is stated to do nothing for his damage output, which is why Goku was in disbelief once Hit was on the offensive. That Hit why he refers to transformations as "cutting corners." He basically says he only gets stronger through training, and as he trains (fights) with Goku, his time skip and ability to stay in the fight strengthen.

It didn’t do anything in general. They all comment his Ki is the same. Also, Durability and Damage output are the same in Dragon Ball unless stated differently, so it necessarily means he’s not increasing. Hit even comments that raising power the way Goku and Frost do is meaningless, and that technique itself is the only thing that matters. So no, his Ki did not improve. What we’re seeing is simply the application of Time Skip at such a level it mitigates speed advantages, vital point attacks that negate durability, and the capacity to evade nearly anything through both time skip and his own martial arts. The only point is durability, and we see that even after an evolution it didn’t improve because he had to avoid the final punch and when he was hit it laid him out.

 

[RenderGK]

this makes more sense, i agree with you

He doesn’t catch Goku in it during the Rematch. Also, Jiren got by Time Cage, so I dunno what you’re talking about.

Yeah, but if Hit had actually increased the punch wouldn’t have mattered. Also, we’re told Hit was suppressing himself for the Tournament, so it’s not contradictory.

It didn’t do anything in general. They all comment his Ki is the same. Also, Durability and Damage output are the same in Dragon Ball unless stated differently, so it necessarily means he’s not increasing. Hit even comments that raising power the way Goku and Frost do is meaningless, and that technique itself is the only thing that matters. So no, his Ki did not improve. What we’re seeing is simply the application of Time Skip at such a level it mitigates speed advantages, vital point attacks that negate durability, and the capacity to evade nearly anything through both time skip and his own martial arts. The only point is durability, and we see that even after an evolution it didn’t improve because he had to avoid the final punch and when he was hit it laid him out.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I will now disagree with the OP's main argument.

TIME SKIP IS TIME STOPPING
All credits to Null

Episode 37
　13:22 | Galactic King: "He might be time-skipping. I've only heard rumors about it myself, but supposedly some people can cause a slight skip in time. I believe it was roughly a 0.1 second skip. Simply put, he can freeze time for everything but himself for 0.1 seconds."
　13:51 | Goku: "Freeze things for 0.1 seconds?"
21:01 | Goku: "You can only freeze time for 0.1 seconds, right?"

This is consistent with the manga version, which also went off Toriyama's notes.

"B-B-But Vados' statement", meaningless. Hit is able to deliver tens of hits in the span of his timeskip. If he was truly ONLY time travelling, he would just arrive at a later point in time and then deliver a hit, there wouldn't be any in-between because said in-between should be skipped, yet that's not the case.


^
IF BRO WAS JUST TIME SKIPPING HOW IS HE CONNECTING THESE HITS?

All OP has is one statement from Vados which is contradicted several times in the U6 Arc and by basic logic.

There is no way Time Skipping can explain all the moves he connected on Goku in-between, meaning at least time was stopped from Hit's POV

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Would any of you like to reconsider your votes? I thought keeping it as minor resistance to time stop is the best option now.

 

[omegabronic]

I will now disagree with the OP's main argument.

TIME SKIP IS TIME STOPPING
All credits to Null

Episode 37
　13:22 | Galactic King: "He might be time-skipping. I've only heard rumors about it myself, but supposedly some people can cause a slight skip in time. I believe it was roughly a 0.1 second skip. Simply put, he can freeze time for everything but himself for 0.1 seconds."
　13:51 | Goku: "Freeze things for 0.1 seconds?"
21:01 | Goku: "You can only freeze time for 0.1 seconds, right?"

This is consistent with the manga version, which also went off Toriyama's notes.

"B-B-But Vados' statement", meaningless. Hit is able to deliver tens of hits in the span of his timeskip. If he was truly ONLY time travelling, he would just arrive at a later point in time and then deliver a hit, there wouldn't be any in-between because said in-between should be skipped, yet that's not the case.


^
IF BRO WAS JUST TIME SKIPPING HOW IS HE CONNECTING THESE HITS?

All OP has is one statement from Vados which is contradicted several times in the U6 Arc and by basic logic.

There is no way Time Skipping can explain all the moves he connected on Goku in-between, meaning at least time was stopped from Hit's POV





Would any of you like to reconsider your votes? I thought keeping it as minor resistance to time stop is the best option now.

this thread's grace was already applied, i am in the process of making another thread to cover this, thank you for the organization tho

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will now disagree with the OP's main argument.

TIME SKIP IS TIME STOPPING
All credits to Null

Episode 37
　13:22 | Galactic King: "He might be time-skipping. I've only heard rumors about it myself, but supposedly some people can cause a slight skip in time. I believe it was roughly a 0.1 second skip. Simply put, he can freeze time for everything but himself for 0.1 seconds."
　13:51 | Goku: "Freeze things for 0.1 seconds?"
21:01 | Goku: "You can only freeze time for 0.1 seconds, right?"

This is consistent with the manga version, which also went off Toriyama's notes.

"B-B-But Vados' statement", meaningless. Hit is able to deliver tens of hits in the span of his timeskip. If he was truly ONLY time travelling, he would just arrive at a later point in time and then deliver a hit, there wouldn't be any in-between because said in-between should be skipped, yet that's not the case.


^
IF BRO WAS JUST TIME SKIPPING HOW IS HE CONNECTING THESE HITS?

All OP has is one statement from Vados which is contradicted several times in the U6 Arc and by basic logic.

There is no way Time Skipping can explain all the moves he connected on Goku in-between, meaning at least time was stopped from Hit's POV





Would any of you like to reconsider your votes? I thought keeping it as minor resistance to time stop is the best option now.

This looks great to me.

 

[omegabronic]

this thread's grace was already applied, i am in the process of making another thread to cover this, thank you for the organization tho

"Skipping? Skipping? man idek anymore" Hit time skip re-revision

Continuation of this thread...............look i know i just changed it like, yesterday, but come on, i couldn't stand around with this inconsistency and just do nothing, i am half reverting it, why? because i just realized how confusingly and nonsensically this ability is, so here we go It...

vsbattles.com

As i promised

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’ll close this and it can be handled in Part 2.