Speed tiers above Massively FTL+?

[PFM18]

So, I saw this in the "speed" article:

"Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to infinity. As such, MFTL+ characters need not be even remotely on a similar level of speed. In fact, the difference may be as great as the magnitude of difference between MFTL and regular human level.

In conclusion, one MFTL+ character can speed blitz another MFTL+ character, and assuming otherwise without a logical reason is fallacious."

Which, kind of brings up an interesting point. The category varies dramaitcally, you see characters fairly often that are quadrillions of times the SoL, and yet they'd be in the same tier as one that is like 1500x SoL, that seems kind of strange. We have it as not an entirely uncommon occurrence for characters to be in the same tier and be billions or trillions of times different in speed.

So what if we made more tiers above Massively FTL+? So, in the lower tiers we have it measured in meters per second. Now, instead of meters, we could use astronomical units of measurement. Like, we could have the next tier be 1 parsec per second and maybe name that tier "Astronomical"'? '

It would make the top 3 tiers look like this hypothetically:

Massively FTL+: 1000x SoL-102,927,125x SoL(or 1 parsec per second)

Astronomical: 1 parsec/second-1,000parsecs/second

Astronomical+: 1,000 parsecs/second to infinity

Something like that. Maybe make the middle tier a little bigger or something, like 1-1,000,000 parsecs/per second. Because as it stands you could still have a character that takes a couple of days to reach the nearest solar system, and a character like Whis that can travel large portions of the universe in several minutes, placed in the same category. That seems weird to me personally.

Just a suggestion, giving people some food for thought.

 

[Ionliosite]

Why I like the idea, I think the "Astronomical" name is kinda misleading, since Massively FTL+ is more than enough to travel astronomical on an acceptable amount of time.

 

[Planck69]

Seems like a good idea on paper but is it really neccesary? We have several categories where there's no set upper limit but we don't see any need to sub-categorize them. 3-A for instance goes from a set baseline to infinity and one 3-A could be as far from another in power as a human is from him. If we don't need to sub-categorize that (2-B is also in a similar situation) then should we really do that for this?

I'm neutral but maybe you could explain it a bit better.

 

[KingPin0422]

I would prefer dividing FTL categories according to common FTL feats, such as Interplanetary, Interstellar, etc. instead of using arbitrary (and quite frankly, undersized) categories.

Some would say that this would be a lot of work and put pressure on the staff, and considering we have not even finished applying the tiering system revisions to all of our profiles, this is an understandable concern.

However, this would not affect an overwhelming majority of profiles, just a sizable (but manageable) portion of them. We also can (and should) prioritize the re-evaluation of high-tier verses over a modification to our speed scale.

 

[Ionliosite]

Seems like a good idea on paper but is it really neccesary? We have several categories where there's no set upper limit but we don't see any need to sub-categorize them. 3-A for instance goes from a set baseline to infinity and one 3-A could be as far from another in power as a human is from him. If we don't need to sub-categorize that (2-B is also in a similar situation) then should we really do that for this?

I'm neutral but maybe you could explain it a bit better.

3-A is kinda irrelevant since, beyond scaling chains, there's basically no way to actually be above baseline on it. and I personally always wanted to make 2-B sub-tiers since that tier is insanely big

 

[PFM18]

Why I like the idea, I think the "Astronomical" name is kinda misleading, since Massively FTL+ is more than enough to travel astronomical on an acceptable amount of time.

I mean the name could be worked on, but even being 1,000x SoL it would take you well over a day to reach the NEAREST solar system. I don't think thats really an acceptable amount of time. So, in the context of astronomical distances 1,000x SoL is pretty slow.

 

[Planck69]

3-A is kinda irrelevant since, beyond scaling chains, there's basically no way to actually be above baseline on it. and I personally always wanted to make 2-B sub-tiers since that tier is insanely big </div>

Sheer size is a way, as well as having the size of a universe being explicitly stated to be at a size beyond what we consider as baseline or destroying the observable universe from it's very edge. A character already exists that's far above baseline via one of those justifications. Dragon Ball already has a universe larger than baseline. A hypothetical DC 3-A would also be really high into the tier. It's entirely possible to be above baseline in 3-A without scaling chains.

How would you sub-categorize 2-B? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Eficiente]

This is unnecessary and dumb when you really think of its implications (we would be giving people more stuff to learn about a stat that are very interpretable terms, unlike the tiering which gives mostly things that are bigger in size to each other).

I will one day make a thread so we may all add the exact numbers that are the speed of each MFTL+ character in the description of their Speed stat without the risk of anyone removing it, and that should be enough.

 

[PFM18]

Seems like a good idea on paper but is it really neccesary? We have several categories where there's no set upper limit but we don't see any need to sub-categorize them. 3-A for instance goes from a set baseline to infinity and one 3-A could be as far from another in power as a human is from him. If we don't need to sub-categorize that (2-B is also in a similar situation) then should we really do that for this?

I'm neutral but maybe you could explain it a bit better.

Definitely not neccessary exactly, it is just a suggestion

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I like the idea of more speed tier above MFTL+

Not for sure what it would be called though in regards to naming those tiers.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"Trans-universal?"

"Cosmic inflationary speeds?"

"Big bang speeds!"

I suck at names. there is a reason iwasn't allowed to name my childere

 

[Planck69]

This is unnecessary and dumb when you really think of its implications.
I will one day make a thread so we may all add the exact numbers that are the speed of each MFTL+ character in their Speed stat without the risk of anyone removing it, and that should be enough.

Several characters are MFTL+ but have no feat that can be calced, such as the common "flew to a distant star or galaxy in a few minutes/hours/days" and even harder to determine stuff than that (the Cthulhi have a feat of flying from another universe to earth in an unknown amount of time). All of those feats are MFTL+ at a glance but impossible to accurately determine values for them.

But it would be a good idea for those with already calced speeds to have them listed I suppose.

 

[PFM18]

"Trans-universal?"

"Cosmic inflationary speeds?"

"Big bang speeds!"

I suck at names. there is a reason iwasn't allowed to name my childere

I has a hard time coming up with a good name, ended up just going with something simple.

 

[Eficiente]

Several characters are MFTL+ but have no feat that can be calced, such as the common "flew to a distant star or galaxy in a few minutes/hours/days" and even harder to determine stuff than that (the Cthulhi have a feat of flying from another universe to earth in an unknown amount of time). All of those feats are MFTL+ at a glance but impossible to accurately determine values for them.

But it would be a good idea for those with already calced speeds to have them listed I suppose.

Who cares tho, making names does nothing to that when you can just make a calc anyway using a lowball.

 

[Planck69]

Who cares tho, making names does nothing to that when you can just make a calc anyway using a lowball.

I'm not really for or against the names, just pointing out how it's impractical to get that done for every MFTL+ character.

Also I dare you come up with a way to estimate the Cthulhi's feat.

 

[ByAsura]

I think it's better to have a broader (well, "broader" because the difference to the next tier is still infinite) speed category like Massively FTL+ because you can dump vague feats there, like moving from Earth to another solar system in an unknown, but extremely quick timeframe. Also, FTL is considered the basline for interstellar travel, so it makes more sense MFTL+ to hold this position, while 1000 parsecs per second seems kind of arbitrary and probably wouldn't apply to many characters, outside of Marvel, DC and God Man.

That, and hundreds of pages would have to be revised for something that's fairly superficial.

 

[My_area]

I support the idea of sub dividing MFTL+ characters into more specific tiers as its way too broad and we have to actually get into how much times MFTL+ to see who blitz while naming will automatically make the "how many times MFTL+" job easier though there are alot of pages for MFTL+ and finding each and every MFTL+ character page and applying different tiering name according to how many times MFTL+ they are by searching deeper because usually numbers aren't mentioned which could become pretty exhausting and long for something small,just giving in my 2 cents

Another thing I think speed for those who travels infinite distance in finite time(I think that happens in fiction) should be given another tier though it very rare and unnecessary

 

[00potato]

Why not just call it MFTL++?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I know Versus Compendium Wiki used "Beyond Massively Faster Than Light" for anything that was 1 million times FTL or higher

 

[PFM18]

Why not just call it MFTL++?

I mean I guess that's a possible name, but I wanted something that would more clearly distinguish it from the previous tiers. I want it to illustrate that it would be a speed that would allow for travel across cosmetic areas in a reasonable amount of time. I liked the idea of it being called "Interstellar" or something like that,
Disclaimer: I am still very new to all of this astronomy/physics stuff being applied to fictional characters. I do not claim to be an authority on the subject, nor do I believe that implementing new speed tiers is an absolute necessity or something.

But the line for what is considered qualifying as "Massively FTL+" is just so damn slow in the context of astronomical distances. It just seems strange to me that you could qualify as being in the HIGHEST speed tier, and still be that slow. Here are a few examples,

traveling 1,000x SoL, the cutoff for Massively FTL+, it would take 1.5 days to reach the nearest solar system, Proxima Centauri.

traveling 1 parsec/second, the cutoff for "Astronomical", it would take 1.29 seconds to reach the nearest solar system, Proxima Centauri.

1.5 days is a LONG time, and it just doesn't feel that fast to reach something that is relatively short, just the distance to the nearest solar system. 1 parsec/second gives a nice clean number that represents essentially the ability to travel to near solar systems in a second, just as the "FTL" tier represents the ability to travel the speed of light. So, it's not exactly arbitrary. And then I just made the next tier being 1,000x that, the same way that "Massively FTL+" is 1,000x the SoL. Then here's another example:

traveling 1,000x SoL, the cutoff for Massively FTL+, it would take 25 years days to reach the nearest Galaxy, the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy at this speed.

traveling 1 parsec/second, the cutoff for "Astronomical", it would take 2 hours and 7 minutes to reach the nearest Galaxy, the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy at this speed.

So, I mean, in the context of astronomical distances, you can be "Massively FTL+" while being REALLY damn slow, so that's kind of strange to me. Like 25 years to reach the nearest galaxy is a long time. The new proposed highest speed tier would be able to travel there in 7.8 seconds, which is obviously a short time to travel an astronomical distance.

 

[My_area]

I understand what you are saying but MFTL+ isn't there to make it like it can cross huge distances its just a highest tier of FTL which can extend from 1000 times speed of light to any finite number so it goes from taking long to cross solar system to crossing universes easily though I admit that its way too broad and it should be bit more specific in order to find comparable speeds when making a match but "equalized speed" negates this and it would take too long to change all of the profile just for name change though I like the topstrongest wiki way of dividing MFTL+ to sub tiers

 

[PFM18]

I understand what you are saying but MFTL+ isn't there to make it like it can cross huge distances its just a highest tier of FTL which can extend from 1000 times speed of light to any finite number so it goes from taking long to cross solar system to crossing universes easily though I admit that its way too broad and it should be bit more specific in order to find comparable speeds when making a match but "equalized speed" negates this and it would take too long to change all of the profile just for name change though I like the topstrongest wiki way of dividing MFTL+ to sub tiers

It just seems strange for it to be possible to be in the highest speed tier but also that slow.

 

[My_area]

Its highest tier for FTL category and being 1000 times FTL is just the minimum requirement for being MFTL+ it can extend from 1000 of times FTL to any non infinite number of times FTL so it could be slow as in baseline but its could have all sorts of finite speed in it. Dont worry MFTL+ is 4 highest speed tier not the highest so infinite,Immeasurable and irrelevent speed far transcend it and irrelevent speed is the highest in this wiki

 

[Antvasima]

As ByAsura mentioned, we have this broad tier for the sake of convenience, and it would take far too much work for far too little gain to find and revise thousands of pages at this point.

 

[DarkGrath]

While I agree that this would be somewhat unnecessary, I'm not 100% opposed to it either.

Overall, having a speed tier with that much variation just seems to nullify the point of having the speed tiers at all. There are many characters in fiction who have far, far beyond 1000x SOL speeds that would completely speed-blitz other MFTL+ characters several times over. So having them be categorised in the same speed tier is finicky and not particularly accurate.

At the very least, I'm not opposed to the idea of having higher speed tiers, though I don't think we need to go as specific as parsecs. To make it easier to understand, it could just be multipliers of SOL like many of the other speed tiers (like having the next tier up be "100'000x SOL" or something like that)

 

[Antvasima]

It is convenient to have a tier that can be automatically assigned to characters that can travel galactic distances within undefined but limited amounts of time.

It would also encompass far too much work to check through all of the calculations and other justifications for all of our MFTL+ profiles, to see if they should be assigned a new rating, and to then apply this to a few thousand pages.

 

[DarkGrath]

Fair enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree, the higher up speed tiers seem unnecessary.

 

[Antvasima]

So is it fine if I close this thread?

 

[DarkGrath]

It's probably best we ask the OP if he has any more comments on the matter first.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[PFM18]

I mean it was just a suggestion I thought of, I don't find it to be a pressing issue. Seems that it is much more trouble than it is worth

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable. Should I close this thread?

 

[My_area]

I believe so

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.