Superman's Type 8

[C2_of_Omegon]

Ok, simply put, this has got to go as it doesn't actually meet Type 8. This is the page used as evidence for it.

Basically to sum up the situation behind that page: Aliens create a device at the beginning of time, that, when destroyed, erases imagination and alters reality as a result. Due to some events Superman ends up destroying this pyramid. This changes reality to a world superheroes don't exists, humans never even formed cities, etc. The aliens then attack the now defenesless Earth.

But these two kids (who are stand-ins for the guys who created Superman, even named Jerry and Joey), keep talking about this character they came up with before drawing Superman in the image above. They then make costumes based on Superman and start getting people to believe in Superman, which then brought Superman back into existence to stop the aliens' attack/invasion.

The problem here is that the situation is, more or less, about a process being reversed. Even in the page being used for evidence of Superman's supposed immortality, the aliens note that if the belief in heroes keeps rising, reality will go back to normal.

As such, I say that we remove Superman's Type 8 due to it really not being about immortality or the like.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with this.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

Vsbattle battle definition of Immortality Type 8. Reliant Immortality: The character cannot die as long as a certain being, object, or even concept exists.

The entire concept of heroes and anything related to it ceased to exist. Superman and anything related to him was gone once the pyramid exploded. It was the kids wanting of a savior allowing them to create the concept of "Hero" once again throughout the universe. The kids dialogue shows they are making up the existence of Superman.

Aliens continuously specify in the comics that the entire concept of heroes is starting to emerge once again. This means that Superman relies on the concept of Hero in order to not fully die ever after he vanished.

So, in regards to Vsabattle definition of Type 8. This is indeed immortality for Superman. You can argue it not being combat applicable depending on the circumstances, but the comic has proven that Superman existence does tangle within the concept of Hero.

 

[Eficiente]

I asked for the entire context of this being added when it was proposed, it should be applied here.

I can't agree or disagree without seeing the whole thing.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'll be back later to respond. I'm heading off to work.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

@Eficiente

Here is the full comic .

 

[Eficiente]

It's definitely not just a process being reversed, "It can't be real, yet the more they believe, the more they hope, the more they more they know this Superman is real... ...The more real he becomes! This is stuff out of stories and fairy tails, the stuff born from hope and imagination..."

It's less or none on "doing this reverses the process" and more on "this shouldn't be happening but it is, also only this specific guy is brought to life without history being changed".

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I will admit that I possibly over simplified what is going on.

However, there's this to consider: the aliens state that if mythic belief continues to rise that the world would revert back to what is was previously. Throughout the comic, we keep getting updates on the Power Pyramids (the things that warped reality and everything) and how they're losing power, how they're short circuiting. In response, the aliens are scrambling to elminate Joey and Jerry before they spread their story about a hero and just revert the world back to normal.

"If this belief in heroes continues to strengthen, this world will return to its previous reality!"

"Quickly...destroy those people before the rest of the planet returns to normal!"

The kids are also focusing on bringing Superman in particular back into reality and telling people to believe in that. Remember, Superman existed in the previous reality. Replace Superman with anything, and the results would have been the same. Wonder Woman, Batman, US Militrary, a nuclear warhead etc.

That's really the heart of the matter. Superman did not return via any special property of himself, but due to the mechanics of what's going on in the situation. You can't disentangle his return from the alien's method of control over reality slipping.

 

[Eficiente]

If that were the case the narration would not say "It can't be real" and "This is stuff out of stories and fairy tails" as it is logical would happen with everything, "this world will return to its previous reality" can also mean "something's going to happen that will practically do that", I say this due to the world not going back to its previous reality, but Superman himself returning.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

If that were the case the narration would not say "It can't be real" and "This is stuff out of stories and fairy tails" as it is logical would happen with everything, "this world will return to its previous reality" can also mean "something's going to happen that will practically do that", I say this due to the world not going back to its previous reality, but Superman himself returning.

But that's the thing. The world was just starting to revert, it hadn't fully yet and was small pocket of resistance. In response,the aliens were scrambling, making threats, trying to prevent that before they lost all control. They were talking about just destroying the kids and the other people. In response to the threats, Joey and Jerry get everyone to focus on a hero to save them from the aliens.

You're treating this as an all or nothing thing. The entire tension of the story boils down to the aliens plans starting to unravel but haven't just yet and the kids are trying to will their savior into reality to stop them before the aliens just kill them.

The kids are getting people to focus their imagination (the thing that is reverting reality back to normal) to bring Superman back into existence. Of coruse he's going back first, if he's the focus versus the eventual reversion of reality that was already going to happen as a simply byproduct of two kid's imagination.

Also, while narration can be informative, it can also just be over flowery descriptions. EDIT: Going further, the narration can easily be talking about the people's reaction to willing a hero into existence. I'd say that would sound very farfetched to most, comic or not.

 

[Eficiente]

Ok then, it's questionable at best, and your points come from more reasonable assumptions. I think it should be removed.

 

[Zensum]

This isn't battle applicable. I agree with the OP.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It being battle applicable or not has nothing to do with whether Superman has Type 8 immortality, just whether is... battle applicable.

That said, I am rather neutral to this and just interested to see where it goes if at all.

 

[Zensum]

Type 8 is battle applicable by definition. The requirments are that character can't die as long as a certain thing exists. This is clearly untrue in regards to Superman. With full context what occurs in this comic is neither type 8 or immortality for that matter.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not, really though? Not dying doesn't mean the character is back on it's feet or even combat ready and able no matter what is thrown his way as long as the reliant aspect is around.

Do you really think Voldemort's Type 8 would be combat applicable if the opponent could leave him in a state like when Harry bounced Avada Kedabra back on him?

 

[Zensum]

That's not the point i'm trying to make in relation to this Superman feat. Being back on you feet/combat ready isn't what I meant when I said not combat applicable. I was just saying the situation in that comic can't be reproduced by Superman in a vs match in addition to it not being immortality in the first place.

Yea since Voldemort's using it in the fight. He's still alive he just got incaped by Harry right?

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Agreed: KLOL506, Eficiente, Zensum

Disagree: Mr. Common Sense

Neutral: LSirLancelotDuLacl

So far, the majority agree to remove Type 8 from Superman but we've got only a handful of people.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. You can ask a few VS Battles Staff members to comment here if you wish.

 

[KingEzran]

agreed

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Now that's meta

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but not in a talking to the readers or power-tripping manner. It is fine with me.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I am personally fine with if we remove the ability.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

So is the consensus to remove the ability here?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Seems to be the case.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unlock the page for you. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

OK, changes are made. The profile can be relocked and this thread closed.

As always, Ant, thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.